An Interview with a Bible Student

This is another link to a Female Bible student that left.

https://blog.lifeassuranceministries.org/2017/10/25/what-it-means-to-leave-a-cult/

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHg-njWSK2A&t=2428s

 

This is the full channel that gives a full overview of Jehovah's Witnesses and its comparison to the Bible Students.

Many witnesses and those that have left the Witness organization have asked about the Bible Student movement. This Interview is very accurate from my experience and a former elder who went into the Bible Student movement also.

Notice our emphasize is only on Russell and the teaching, the culture of the Bible Students vs the Jehovah witnesses to let you see the religion and not go in blind.

It is not against individuals in either sect but the culture they share that makes them essentially the same religion expressed and packaged differently.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9YzURByl6zg2gDONF2z4mA/videos

 

35 Responses to An Interview with a Bible Student

  1. jacqueline says:

    If a minister revises and prints his own Bible, he is held to a higher standard.

    There is something wrong with a minister that says Lucifer is prompting people if they obey the doctors and the government to use measures to protect them from the Coronavirus.

    When a minister’s son-in-law almost died on a ventilator and his other family members were sick.

    To write an email and CC me on it saying, if you follow steps that the government suggests, you are under Lucifer. That’s cult talk.
    How dare you include me in your sick email rants against the government and doctors.

    Partial quote from the email: “The things Lucifer got people to do to spread disease and death:

    1. Lock down, stay indoors (keep sunshine UV from killing the virus, and subcutaneously forming Vitamin D3).
    2. Wear a mask; so that UV can’t get to virii on the face.
    3. Keep people apart; so as to increase depression (and weaken the immune system).

  2. jacqueline says:

    See if you like the name I used Cyndi. And You can publish this email, it might be therapeutic to actually publish a different insight on your other comments. What I see is you are a kind and caring person, even when you are the victim you try to take any hurt off of another person.
    Sometimes you are being used to help another person realize they’re not alone.
    This might be the therapy you need along with some others that might have molested.

  3. Cyndi says:

    Jacqueline

    I’ve been mulling over my posts all day. Sigh. The best way to describe my feelings is to compare myself to a washing machine with a shoe in it that’s causing it to be imbalanced. As much as I’m mad at my mom right now for being so distant, a part of me really, really wants the mom relationship I had with her after she divorced my dad and before she had met Greg, her husband. I guess life seemed to be a bit simpler, then. When I would come to visit her, I had some of the fondest memories. Sometimes, I’d go on excursions on my own (it’s how I found Cape Blanco Lighthouse on the Oregon coast and the Redwoods) and other times, we’d go somewhere and she’d show me the area.

    My mom has never been one for small talk and would “tolerate” our phone conversations with me doing most of the talking to fill her in on what was going on in my life, but the calls became less and less because I think I could sense she just didn’t really want to chat. She would email, but again, it was never enough to maintain any sort of ongoing discussion.

    I just don’t know what happened. I guess maybe I got married and had a family and it’s not something she can really relate to. I didn’t really speak of it in my epic posts on your site, but she never wanted or had any desire to have children of her own. I think I even asked her when I was an adult what could have possibly been going through her mind to marry my dad? She said she didn’t know herself. But, I think I know. Her parents, especially her mother, pushed her to marry my dad because she saw this little girl who came to visit who didn’t have a “reliable” mother. My dad told them all sorts of sordid stories about my biological mother, so of course, they thought she was a woman who was just looking for any man who would sleep with her, and as a result, she had five children. I only knew of two – my oldest half brother Duane (he’s 12 years older than me) and Darrin (he’s 9 years older than me). Sure, my biological mother smoked like a chimney (her whole family did) and she had three children living with her from three different men, but that didn’t make her a bad mother. She didn’t neglect me, she provided as much as she could for me, and did the best she could.

    I have a picture of myself when I was about 3 1/2 years old, visiting Arizona. Why on earth would I be visiting Arizona at that age? My biological mother had custody of me. My dad took me out of the state to visit his girlfriend’s parents. And boy, did he manipulate everybody. Nothing about any of his stories add up – he built his life around a bunch of lies, but probably never realized that the internet could unearth them and reveal just how much of a liar he is. This picture is really strange to me because if my biological mother had custody of me, why was I even visiting these people when I was 3 1/2? From what I do understand, my parents were separated, but not divorced. When my mother wanted to move to Minnesota, I think that’s when my dad filed for custody of me and she had no other choice but to leave me behind. I’m pretty sure she never even knew I was brought to Phoenix and “shown off.” So, going back to what I suspected, that her parents had everything to do with her marrying my dad, even though she didn’t want children at all… it had everything to do with my dad manipulating her parents into thinking I was abandoned and needed a mother. I didn’t need a mother. What I needed was a father who wasn’t an asshole who wouldn’t do ANYTHING for anyone unless it served some purpose for him. That’s the question I have to ask myself all the time now: what’s in it for HIM? He felt slighted by my biological mother’s actions, even though he didn’t have custody of me. She was trying to get away from him. I have no idea when his beating my brother to a pulp happened… Duane won’t really talk about it with me and Darrin can’t remember when it happened, but was able to describe in detail WHAT happened. I suspect it happened when I was really young and it could have been what caused them to separate. My dad had a gambling problem, too, which also caused a lot of stress on their relationship. So, as an adult, I have to ask myself, what was in it for him to take me away from the only mother I ever knew and plop me down into a new home with a stranger? My biological mother did something to him for him to take action like that… and the best way he knew to get back at her shows just how much of a sociopath he is. He saw an opportunity when my stepmom’s parents offered to buy them a house (if they got married), which would give him an actual house he could brag about and live in, without having to pay for it himself (remember, all he ever looked for in a woman was her ability to support him). My biological mother lived in the house that was rented by my biological grandmother, I think. She never owned a home. So, here’s a woman that can offer an actual house instead of living in a dumpy apartment in Pico Rivera. My dad was a short haul truck driver… he might have been able to afford a house one day if he didn’t spend all his money at the horse races.

    So, what was in it for my dad? A new house that he didn’t have to pay for. So, you bet he was gonna hold onto me because he suddenly had collateral that would pay for a house, even if he had to marry a woman who didn’t want children AT ALL. The only person who came out of this situation a winner at the time was my dad. Me, I was abandoned and destitute, crying for my mommy (I vividly remember this but have no recollection of moving out of the house I lived in with my mom and my two brothers – I mentally blocked it all out). All I wanted was to be loved, but I found myself living with someone who didn’t quite know what to do with me. My dad’s way of placating me was throwing goodies my way, but my stepmom (now my mom) put a stop to that real quick. She told me years later that the first time I had a tantrum in the kitchen because I didn’t get what I wanted or some such thing, she filled a glass with water and through it my face to get me to stop.

    Believe me… I’ve thought about writing a book, just about living with the monster who was my father. It would be really satisfying to write it and have it published before he died, but I also don’t want to give him the satisfaction of feeling any kind of satisfaction that he was the topic of discussion, even if it is negative. It would make a very good book. It’s just a matter of finding the time to actually write it.

    Anyway… I know you said that Bible Students in my old class have already seen my post and know who I am, but maybe it would be best if I change my name on your site and you refer to me with another name? Or is it too late for that? I used my first name only (which now that I think about it, was really dumb), and though I didn’t use any names in my posts, knowing what my first name is, anyone associated with that class will be able to put the details of what I wrote together immediately. I think the biggest monster in my story overall is NOT my stepmom, but my dad. He’s the one who has hurt me immeasurably, over and over, since I was born. He’s caused me physical, mental, and emotional pain for years. My mom might have subjected me to the Bible Students and had me go, but in my story, she *did* push my dad not to go apologize to the owner of the construction company (it was his worker and the worker’s son who were working on my house) because she recognized that I was giving details about things I should not have known, even if I did go to a public school. I was still very innocent. I also didn’t write this and should have, but years later, after she had divorced my dad and I was living with her while I was in my first year of community college, we were watching TV in her bedroom and some made-for-TV movie had come on that we watched together. It was about a girl who had been kidnapped, was kept in some sort of small box, and was abused (I can’t remember if she was sexually abused or not). Suddenly, my mom asked if I had had those things happen to me all those years before (it was only eight years before, but may as well have been a lifetime) and I said without hesitation, yes. I also told her that when I tried to bring it up with my dad and his new wife, he immediately changed the subject, refusing to acknowledge that his daughter was a victim of sexual abuse. To him, to be a victim of ANYTHING is intolerable, especially to someone who thinks he’s absolutely perfect in every way. So, I wanted to tell you that I think I may have jumped the gun on some things about my mom… that yes, she went along with not doing anything about my abuse, and just let it get buried, but that she did, years later, acknowledge that I was abused and that it made me feel better to know that she cared enough to ask. I miss the person she was then. I don’t know that she’s changed… but she just seems to be a lot different now than she was at that moment in time.

    I don’t mind if you post this email, but any of the names I use should be changed, as well as mine.

    Thank you for listening to me… I just hope I haven’t overstepped my bounds with my mom and done irreparable damage.

    Talk to you soon,

  4. jacqueline says:

    Cyndi, I got an email from Ann and she wants me to pass her info on to you. Let me know if I read your email correctly and if you got it.

    She has Covid news to share.

  5. Cyndi says:

    Hi Ann,

    I don’t know if you remember me, but I grew up in the LA class (I’m a bit older than you and your brother). I left years ago, much to the dismay and consternation of my stepmom and her family. Quite frankly, I couldn’t stomach the hypocrisy anymore. And that\’s just the tip of the iceberg. I’m not sure if you’ll ever see this comment, but I just wanted to let you know that I read your article and the comments here. Your cousin Cher-el is on my friends’ list on Facebook and I’ll be honest, I completely forgot the connection. LOL Anyway… take care and I hope all is well with you. 🙂

    • jacqueline says:

      Hi Cyndi, this is Jacqueline, I can tell Ann you commented to her. And thank you so much for commenting here. Cher-el is just one of the best people I have met. I had to clear my Facebook friends to stop the many beautiful BS friends from trying to witness. (smile) I loved Cher-el’s mom! Her sister is so nice also and her husband. There were some dear beautiful friends for the nine years I was associated with the Bible students but they were so much like the Jwitnesses that I left.

      At least I got to see where the witnesses got their organization set up and all the doctrines. It was a journey I had to take. I attended both the Chicago and Northwest In, class (some really beautiful brothers in the Northwest In, class also).

      I attended many many conventions but the control on doctrinal beliefs is the same as the witnesses. The witnesses just flat out tell you. The Bible students are more subtle and piety that didn’t match their manipulation.
      But that is all behind me now and our little group has the freedom to listen to other Christ-like voices that we had been told were worldly. I find so many trying to worship and pleas God and they love and accept Jesus, something I never saw practiced in the witnesses nor the Bible students.

      The witnesses follow their voice as savior only the governing body, organization, and the Bible students actually as I experienced worshiped Charles Taze Russell, It was unreal this devotion.

      I had never seen anything like it, the tearful adoration of a deceased man. It got weird.

      • Cyndi says:

        Hi Jacqueline!

        Thank you for your response. I never officially “left” the Bible Students church – I just stopped going. I would consider myself agnostic more than anything else and my stepmom and her family would be appalled to hear me say it. But, all the signs are there: I got married in a courtyard at a restaurant with a dear gay friend as our officiant. The only “prayer” uttered during the ceremony was an Irish blessing my new sister-in-law read. Nothing about our ceremony was religious in any way.

        I think my mom and her cousin conveniently forgot about all of that, especially now that I have a daughter of my own. My husband and I are both raising her to understand religion and make decisions for herself, but with the obvious caveat that she is not to join a cult. 😉

        Two years ago, I started a graduate program and thought my mom would be excited and proud of me. Instead, she has become increasingly distant. I attributed it to the fact that we do not have the same political views and it right contentious on Facebook (to the point that she removed me from her friends list!). She didn’t like that I told her her data was wrong and that she needed to check her sources before posting misinformation. She claimed she removed me from her Facebook because she didn’t approve of me posting pictures of my daughter – something about the Internet predators are out there. I could see right through that ruse. I was sexually abused at 11 years old and NOTHING was done about it, even though the man who abused me was taken in for questioning. It was big mess that I won’t give you the details on (unless you want me to… I don’t mind), but basically, I was left with mental scars that will never go away. I wasn’t abused by a Bible Student, but did the Bible Students do anything to support me? NOPE. In fact, when I was 13 years old, I caught the attention of a 23 year old member of the church and for the next five years, he would not leave me alone. What did I know about love as a 13 year old? He would sneak letters into my bible, telling me he loved me and that he would wait until I was 18 and we would get married. After suffering from sexual abuse, the attention from a trusted member of the class was welcomed. But, as a mother now, I see how concerning it is. My mom did have to call his mother to tell him to back off, several times. When I was 19 years old, he fell off the face of the earth because I guess I wasn’t pious enough for him and he started “courting” another young woman. She was eight years younger than him. They got married and I guess he got what he wanted – a young woman who would basically do what she was told.

        Fast forward to now, and my mom hardly speaks to me. Her cousin outright asked me if we were taking our daughter to church. I told her no. She knew the answer, so I don’t know why she asked. And then she played the “YOUR DAUGHTER DOES NOT KNOW CHRIST?!” card. I am respectful of people and their right to worship whatever they want (except cults… LOL). But, don’t come at me and try to convert me or guilt me into your religion. That’s not cool. I told her I didn’t want to talk about it and you would have thought that how she reacted on the phone, I told her to shut up. She tried to bring it up again, and I told her again, I don’t want to talk about it. Enough is enough.

        And then my mom’s cousin sends a card to my daughter with a passive aggressive message inside, suggesting she go to church with my mom sometime. Why can’t the Bible Students just accept people for who they are and celebrate what they want to be? I grew up never directly hearing how proud my mom was of me. It’s like she can’t utter those words physically. I really don’t understand it. I grew up in a cold, sad, lifeless house with very little emotional support. I am making sure I’m not doing the same with my daughter. I will never allow her to be exposed to the kind of mental abuse the Bible Students meted out. I was called worldly a lot. A LOT.

        Anyway… thanks for responding! I hope I didn’t come across too strongly here. Please send my love to Ann. I hope she’s doing well!

        • jacqueline says:

          Cyndi, don’t ever feel you are wrong for sharing your experience. Silence is an abuser’s best friend, we have been spiritually abused! To see it in black and white can be sobering.
          I have not read your full reply but I will do so in the morning. I have just alerted Ann to tell her you have commented and sent her the exact link so she can reply. See Ann’s experience really helped me to see I had jumped from the frying pan into the pot. But I really don’t regret it as I grew and learned to go directly to our Father, Almighty God Yahweh, and Jesus. To accept the Holy Spirit as our teacher and helper and not venerate these men that have milked and kept alive this Spiritual abuse from the 18th century.
          We were born-in and had no choice. It is very difficult to escape mentally if you are born into a cult or high control religion.
          It is just such a blessing that those so-called “Worldly People” are so kind among the Christian community and help us born into a cult adjust.
          Our little group is like the “Huddle” in a football game. You support each other and stick to the Truth.
          What is Truth? The Word of God is Truth not a bunch of manmade books or the so-called “7th messenger” or governing body. I want to let Ann comment before I go further

          Dana, you are always welcome here to say what you want and the articles on here are just that our thoughts as we learn and listen to others. We are growing in love for Christ, so our little articles might reflect that.lol

        • jacqueline says:

          Cyndi, I just read your complete story. Yes please tell your story. With molestation in your background how could you be treated that way?? It is said we all had the “truth”. I asked what do you mean “the truth”?
          The Bible says your word is truth. So all readers and owners of the Word of God has the “Truth”.
          It was the trying to say they were different than other worshippers of the God of the Jews and the Creator had something else. To say only marry within this little gene pool and not another Christian was wrong.
          Hypocrisy and arrogance. You get chosen by the husband and be obedient. Instead of his side-by-side mate, a helper in union to achieve goals together and raise children.
          Our backgrounds are so similar except women do preach in the witnesses, they are put way down but they carry the preaching work.
          Share as much as you feel comfortable with. As much as I talk about molestation in the witnesses, I was shocked to see this total denial was being made by BS. I actually observed a few things myself and said okay, I don’t like what I am seeing. So the creepiness of how a woman is approached is prevalent within the witness organization also.
          But if you are a born-in, it is difficult to get your family to see you are Christian also and you don’t have to be a Jehovah witness nor a Bible student to worship and be accepted by God and Jesus.
          Take Care and how smart of you to attend college, because ignorance allows cults to flourish.
          We are about to go online now and you are welcome to join us for the next few hours. Here is the link
          https://askjacqueline.life/freeconferencecall/

          • Cyndi says:

            Hi Jacqueline,

            Your words are very kind. I appreciate them. My story is long and sad. I would have to write it in parts! I\’ve considered myself an agnostic for many years, even while still attending the Bible Students meetings. I went because I was expected to go, not because I wanted to go. I looked at it like school – my favorite time in school was really spending it with my friends (I did enjoy/excel at some of my classes, like English and history), so I enjoyed most when we weren\’t stuck in meetings and I was able to chat with my friends. As I got older, I was expected to sit in the meetings and listen attentively, but I was internally bored out of my ever-loving mind! Especially when some of the elders would start talking and start bring up numbers and explanations to the volumes. It wasn\’t something that ever interested me, I guess.

            I wasn\’t molested by anyone from the Bible Students class – I just wanted to put that out there. However, what happened to me was kept hush-hush, not spoken about, and made to be like it didn\’t even happen. My own dad (who was never an active participant of the Bible Students – he only reluctantly attended twice a year, for Christmas and Easter) shunned me for what happened.

            So, basically, here\’s what happened. I won\’t go into the completely sordid details, but 6th grade was a really awful year for me. I started middle school and being one of the youngest in my grade, was still ten years old when I started 6th grade. I was immature, had no friends (didn\’t know how to talk to people and was incessantly teased/bullied for a variety of reasons from 1st grade through 6th), and was suddenly foisted into six different classrooms, with six different teachers who had six different expectations. It was a shock. One teacher in particular, my social studies teacher, did the most mental harm to me while at school. She saw how much the kids didn\’t like me, how much I was bullied, and instead of making sure all her students felt \”safe\” in her class, she encouraged their teasing – I guess because she didn\’t like me, either. I made the terrible mistake of arguing with her on the first day of school when I filled out some sort of information card with the wrong kind of pen (I used one of those cool outliner pens that was all the rage, but this type of pend did not meet her standards at that moment). She was pissed off that I dared to argue over what kind of pen to use and after that, it was misery in her class.

            [Even though this has nothing to do with the Bible Students, I\’m bringing her up because it has a lot to do with how badly deteriorated my mental state became while AT school, which led to the events that happened to me while I was AT home.]

            This woman, who was a well-liked teacher by most of the students at the school, as well as those who had her before me and after me, HATED me. She also noticed very quickly how much my own mother (a born-into Bible Student) did not tolerate any nonsense from me at all, to the point that all teachers had my mother\’s 100% support, regardless of whether or not what the teachers said was true or not. As an educator myself now, it\’s appalling to me just how much control my mother gave this teacher. I would never do any of the things this teacher did while conspiring with my mom. I know I probably sound like I\’m telling a bit of \”fish story,\” but just know that everything I say here is 100% true. My mom and I had a very volatile relationship, which I\’ll have to explain in depth later. In short, I was rebellious, argumentative, did stupid things to get attention, and as a result, not many of my classmates liked me or trusted me (I had a problem with stealing stuff from my classmates and teachers when I was in elementary school – I have no other explanation for WHY I did it, other than I was so desperate for attention, it was the only way I knew how to get it). My mom and dad didn\’t trust me, either. When you break the trust of others, though, it\’s very difficult to earn it back. And, I just kept self-sabotaging any chance I had to have friends or to have any sort of real loving relationship with my parents.

            But, I digress. So, this teacher saw how much my mom didn\’t like me, how much she didn\’t trust me, how much the students hated me and bullied me, and what did this teacher do? SHE ENCOURAGED the teasing in class. My nickname was Dana the Dog in school. Isn\’t that nice? Kids are cruel. So, this teacher overheard kids telling me I had Kal-Kan in my backpack. Dogfood. Of course, I didn\’t, but that didn\’t stop my teacher from telling my mom that I could no longer bring my backpack to school because \”it was getting in the way of learning for the other students.\” And my mom took my backpack away. Instead of having a conversation with the teacher about what that exactly meant, she just took the teacher\’s directive at 100% face value and that was that. So, from there on out, I had to carry my books to and from school. This caused me to do worse in my classes and I was frequently late because I had to stop by my locker more often than I would have had I had a backpack to use. This teacher did all sorts of appalling things – she gave me extra homework assignments and told my mom that I didn\’t want to do them, why, I should scrub the bathroom floor. So, I did. I scrubbed the bathroom floor, because the last thing I was going to do was let that teacher make me do work that NONE of the other students had to do. You see, I had to have a daily Progress Report filled out by the teacher and my mom had to sign it. The teacher would often make comments that would wreak havoc on me at home. It\’s amazing to me how much power she wielded, even outside of school. She also took to teasing me in front of the other students. One day, I asked if I could have something and she put her hands up, like a begging dog, and called me \”Great Dane.\” I don\’t hate many people in my life, but she is one of them.

            So, I was being mentally abused at school and did not feel safe in the slightest. I was a latchkey kid and was home before my parents every day. At the time, our house was being remodeled, and the construction company had two men working on our house – a father/son duo. The father was an older guy who took an instant liking to me and showered attention on me. Basically, he was grooming me. I know the signs now, but didn\’t then. I\’ll have to write more in a bit… this is already very long.

            • jacqueline says:

              Cyndi, I wish your mom could see this. I am so sorry you lived through this but you did survive so you are a victor. In spite of your parent you made it, and got an education that allows you to help yourself. The children passing through your class can be your therapy. Everything that that teacher were you will not be and the kindness you will show will make you a beautiful person to be around.
              Very righteous people, entitled ones, often see only the faults in others but your mom dad and all the brothers should have recognized you were molested! That this teacher was abusive and a Bully!
              You and others might say no but Ministers can and do know the signs.
              Your mom nor any parent should ever abandon their child but try to see why. Latchkey kid, knowing you were coming home with men in the house was giving permission to this man to molest you by your parents. Their actions of letting you come home with men in the house alone is child abuse.

              You acted out because it was your way of talking. We have to do what our parents do and say as kids, including sitting through the charts and discertations from the “studies in the scriptures”. But at least you eat and be with your friends during intermissions, lol. Always a silver lining somewhere.
              You made it, you got married, you have a child, you went to college, you graduated,you have a job, you get to choose worship on a personal level, not following a man.
              Wow, you have accomplished a lot of things In Spite of your parenting!

              This is your story and you are like the Bible you tell the faults with the good. That is why and how I know you are telling it accurately!
              Closure, if that teacher is still alive, I would suggest you find her and email her on how she mistreated you. You might be surprised to see she remembers you. Let her see her actions didn’t break you.

              It made you stronger! Dana God also see your strengths.
              Some of the Spiritual abuse stories from others on this site, drove them to Christ! Not to a bunch manmade books and magazines, which by the way is a hallmark and unique to Jehovah witnesses and the Bible students. They actually have the world record on printing so many religious books and mags from one denomination. A fun fact.

              I won’t suggest you talk to your mom but maybe she will see this and realize how you have been affected. It isn’t to late for them to listen to you. I would suggest a family counselor.
              If both parents can’t come, maybe one.
              I don’t know the dynamics here but it is a suggestion. And if that isn’t plausible. You got your husband, daughter and your students! Think of how many you can show love to do they have fond memories of school and be the teacher they look up when they grow up.
              You are now on a journey Dana and I see Jesus in this. Your mom will be notified and see what you have written. If fact I got an email from a member of your old class after you posted.
              It didn’t mention you but all parties on the email know you. We scrutinized the email on our Support Group last night and all agreed the subject matter and mention of Lucifer was a veiled message.

              I ignored it because they should come on the site and talk to me directly instead of a veiled covid-19 email.
              I don’t know your last name but if we can talk on zoom I will show you the name. I also have some other ex- BS and JW females that are on here and we could talk if that is okay with you.
              Let me know and Tuesday evening is a great time for me. I want to let you deal with this and meet other females that have survived.
              Not victims but survivors! Let me know,please. Tis is what I do. Also read what I share below. So strange and similar.

              Strange but this is quite like another youngg girl that I talked to while in the Bible students. It was the adult Bible student women mostly but men also that talked very negatively about a teenage girl at 2 conventions.
              I was shocked that they couldn’t see the girl was literally shouting “I am being hurt”!
              Religious people can be the blindest people sometimes.
              Bts she was rescued.

              • Cyndi says:

                Hi Jacqueline!

                There was an old saying I heard growing up that will probably make you laugh: \”Telephone, Telegram, Tell-a-Bible Student.\” Now, if that isn\’t completely appropriate in this situation, I really don\’t know what is. LOL At first, I thought maybe I\’d better not say anything more about my experiences for fear of it getting back to my mom. But, I will say this: I am an adult. I make my own decisions and have carved my own path for myself. That path has led me here, which is perfectly fine. I have nothing to hide and am only speaking the truth from my heart. I shouldn\’t have to keep my experiences to myself for fear others who are supposed to be loving, \”Christian\” people will get their feelings hurt. \’cause you know what hurt? Going through all the mental and physical abuse I went through.

                With that said, please understand that I am not looking for religion or Jesus or anything like that. I\’m firmly agnostic and am quite content with that fact. 🙂

                It does not surprise me at all that you received a thinly-veiled email from people who know me. I don\’t know how many times the women in my class called my mom to tell her of some slight I had committed, whether it be that I didn\’t shake hands with so-and-so, I was too loud, I wasn\’t wearing an appropriate skirt (that one was a real head-scratcher… I was wearing a long denim skirt, but because it was made of denim, I guess I was a heathen), etc, etc. I never understood why the women were so dang catty. What a bunch of hypocritical nonsense.

                I didn\’t tell you the rest of my story. I won\’t go into the sordid details, but enough for you to get the idea of what I went through and why it was so awful.

                So, yes… I was a latchkey kid. My parents both worked and I walked home from school. It wasn\’t really that big of a deal to have two men working on our house. My bedroom was being converted into a master bedroom suite, so I had to sleep in the living room for months. The older man who worked with his son took an interest in me and showered me with attention, which let\’s face it, I wasn\’t getting much positive attention at home, so a \”father figure\” type man showering me with goodies was a refreshing change of pace. Of course, I didn\’t really know what his intentions were until it was too late.

                Probably one of the worst things that could have happened besides being molested was the McMartin case. It made the news, it was scandalous, and it was local, so of course, everybody knew about it. After being molested for months, the man was finally caught. All it took was for him to take me to the liquor store to buy candy and when he drove me back, my dad\’s truck was in the driveway.
                The man dropped me off around the corner and left me to lie my way out of trouble. Because, all this time, I thought *I* was the one who would get into trouble. He made me think if I said anything anyone or if anyone found out, it would be my fault. I\’ll never forget the sound my mom made when she came up the driveway after she got home from work. This was before cellphones and my mom was on the bus home from work when the police were called and showed up at our house. So, of course, she was distraught.
                It made me feel good to finally have her show emotion, though.
                She was never one to show emotion or care or said \”I love you\” a whole lot. Because of that, I probably say \”I love you\” to my husband and my daughter too much. But, I don\’t care.
                I want them to know. Anyway… so, the reason why the McMartin case couldn\’t have happened at a worse time is because I was accused of making the entire molestation story up. The man who sexually abused me was given a lie detector test (back then, it was fine… nowadays, no court in the nation would accept a lie detector test as evidence) and HE PASSED IT. I was given a lie detector test and I FAILED IT. So, to the police, I was lying and the man was being accused of something he didn\’t do. I had a police detective scream in my face in front of my parents and a bunch of other people in a room at the police station, calling me a liar, that I was only saying the things I said because I wanted attention, that I was copying the McMartin case. He kept pushing me to admit I was lying, yelling at me that I was a terrible person, that I should be ashamed of myself to ruin a family man\’s reputation. So, in order to get that asshole police detective to stop screaming at me, I said I was lying.

                My dad wouldn\’t speak to me for over a week. It was awful. I was treated like I was a sick person.
                However, based on some of the things I had said, my mom had some questions. My dad was actually leaving to go APOLOGIZE to the man who had molested me because I was such an embarrassment, but he had to come back because he forgot his wallet. In that time, I had a conversation with my mom about some things I said in my interview with the police. Apparently, how I referred to the man\’s genitalia and the type of underwear he wore was a big tip-off that something wasn\’t right. My dad was going to leave and she told him not to go over and apologize. She called the police, I went back to the station to take ANOTHER lie detector test, but I didn\’t pass it. It was \”inconclusive.\” I was too nervous taking it and the results just didn\’t come out well enough to indicate I was telling the truth or not. Even though there was quite enough evidence to implicate that man for molesting me, he \”explained away\” everything – from his fingerprints to buying me candy, etc. He even had Hustler Magazine in his truck, which he showed me, but when his truck was searched, all of the evidence of those magazines was gone. So, it really was his word against mine, but my mom asked me about that, too, wanting to know how I could give such explicit descriptions of the contents if I had never seen such a magazine before. I guess kids can talk, but I didn\’t really have very many friends at school, and the few friends I did have didn\’t know what those magazine looked like, either.

                So, what happened after all of this? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I was pulled out of school about two weeks early and never attended public school after that. It was nice not to have to see that smug teacher\’s face anymore. I did go back to the school to visit my math teacher (she was a kind-hearted, though strict teacher, but I adored her) and saw that horrid social studies teacher. She recognized me and turned around, went back into her room and closed her door. I have tried to find her… it would be nice to write her a long letter to tell her thank you for being such a shitty teacher and that one of the reasons I went into teaching was to make sure that not one of my students would EVER feel the way I did in her class. I don\’t know what her first name is, though. Probably blocked it out.

                Jacqueline, the abuse that year was so bad, I contemplated suicide for a short while. I really just didn\’t see any hope in my life. I was 12 years old, didn\’t feel comfortable in my own skin, hated myself, was being mentally abused at school (and at home… my dad is another story unto himself – he\’s narcissistic, manipulative, controlling, and a sociopath), and then coming home and being sexually abused. It was almost too much to bear. I had to dig deep down within myself to really figure things out and try to find my way on my own. And, I did. I didn\’t receive any therapy for what happened to me. It was like someone took an eraser and just erased the entire experience from my family\’s \”story.\” I was expected to just go on with my life and pretend it didn\’t happen. I found coping mechanisms and ways to support myself, through writing, art, and music. Anything I could do to make the world a better place for myself living in it.

                I did go to therapy for a variety of things over the years, and did seek out therapy for what happened to me, but by the time I did see someone, I had healed enough on my own that I really didn\’t need the therapist. She was surprised at the amount of self-healing I had done. I guess it was a coping mechanism. I had gone through a ton of really crappy stuff from a very early age… life just never seemed to come easy for me, I guess. My husband and I suffered a terrible loss – we lost our son at birth. Our daughter is a twin, but has had to grow up an only child, very much like me. The thing is, I have half-siblings, and am closest to my half-brother on my dad\’s side. My daughter doesn\’t have that, but she has cousins that she is close to. So, my husband and I are doing our best to make our daughter\’s life full of love and happiness. She knows she\’s a twin and we light a candle for him every October… and she knows that I have my moments and get really sad sometimes.

                You know, I find it really interesting… I didn\’t notice it before because I\’ve been so busy with my graduate studies, but the friends I have on my Facebook that are Bible Students seemed to have really pulled away from the platform. I don\’t know if it\’s just me, like someone gave them the directive not to speak to me (which is kind of narcissistic to think that, LOL)… or there was some sort of directive of the Bible Students as a whole that they are not to use Facebook anymore because it\’s too worldly or something?

                I\’m really tempted to just delete this whole post now. I\’ll be honest… it really bothers me that you\’ve already been contacted by people from the Bible Students who know me. My mom has hardly spoken to me in months.
                I know she doesn\’t approve of my life, how I\’m raising our daughter, that I\’m getting my masters degree, or that I told her she was quoting false data on Facebook. My words here will probably sever all ties I have with her from now on. Any effort I make in trying to talk to her about how I feel never really went over that well, as a child OR as an adult. The political environment we were in for four years hasn\’t helped matters, either.

                Well, here goes nothing. I\’m going to hit publish. I wonder how long it will take before the gossiping starts???

                • jacqueline says:

                  Cyndi, do you want me to delete all of your posts? Just say the word and I will not delete but collapse them. Also you can still post and I will collapse and only I will see it.
                  We had to do that for a horrible pedophile ring among the witness elders in Australia. Even elders that was helping the police find the victims on our site had to have their update collapsed lest they are found out.
                  I will collapse this now until you tell me no put it baCK UP. i DON’T WANT ALL TIES CUT WITH YOUR FAMILY.
                  I will collapse now and you tell me if you want them restored.
                  I can also collapse my responses. You make the call. At least you got to say it.
                  That is why I invited you to a zoom session so you could tell your story.

                  This fear we have of not telling our story for fear of shunning is a sign we both were in a cult.
                  Silence, shunning, manipulation of your emotions is prevalent within the religions we came out of because they are from the same source.

                  They are the exact same religions, and both are highly ORGANIZED and controlling.
                  I will also collapse my response so maybe it has not been seen by many. But you let me know and we can talk by email or Zoom.
                  You got your husband and your child. I had a child die at birth also and it gets tough. But you do have a friend you can turn to that is faithful. I hope you haven’t been harmed by this.

                  Personally, as an older Mom, if I saw what you wrote, I would be scared to die without going to you to straighten this out.

                  I could not partake of the Bread and Wine if one of my children poured their heart out so I could see it.

                  Perhaps you are being used to show up the ungodly actions of all the people involved.

                  Yeo sometimes God uses the most broken to accomplish a lot.
                  Paul and David broke every rule in the Bible and God said David was his friend.
                  Paul was visited directly and SENT FORTH AS A Special Apostle.

                  I noticed you never kill any Christians along with their entire families by burning or animals or stoning.

                  I noticed you never slept with another woman’s husband then had her killed.

                  Your testimony like Ann’s has helped a lot of witnesses that are leaving the watchtower understand that going to the Bible students is a lateral move, out of the frying pan and into the pot.

                  I did think your opening line was funny. An ex-JW elder laughed his head off when he heard it.

                  In the witnesses, if you want something to spread: telephone, telegraph, telegram, tell a pioneer, tell an elder, tell a field service group before they go out from door to door. Lol

                  In fact, the police detective that was assigned my case when I took a JW elder stalker, the elder body, and the watchtower to court and won a restraining order against all of them, asked me how do you get the measures we want you to take to protect yourself out among your religion.
                  I told him tell a pioneer and it is as good as done!
                  So let me know if you want me to restore your posts. I personally just adopted myself a whole new family group and like you included those blood that are not bullied into shunning me.

                  It has worked now for nearly 20 years. Take Care.

      • Ann says:

        Hi Jacqueline,
        I’m so sorry I didn’t see your comments from last year. I was probably popcorning to Peter’s Youtube videos, and then Covid hit. But I definitely would have come back to write: Uh. no…no one in my family is being investigated by the SEC, I was facetiously commenting on the family of a senior pastor. This might not have been clear from my writing, which is often done without consequence!

        Dana! I do! I do remember you, and I have zero trouble believing anything of what you said. It is very sad. I wish I could tell you this never happens anywhere else. Unfortunately, I am not reliably online these days, unless it’s like 3am and I’m rabbit-holing through the Deep Church. I will pass all my contact info to Jacqueline through email, if you ever want to chat!!!

        Hugs to all,
        A

  6. jacqueline says:

    This is a follow-up to this interview on his page giving much-needed info on the history of the watchtower and his experience.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHg-njWSK2A&lc=UgzyD7lK5ocUrrgZze54AaABAg.90CD5l4bSab9ITeFjQHrU8

  7. Jacqueline says:

    Father Divine (1876-1965) He was also called “The Messenger” around 1907.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Peace_Mission_movement

    It seems this was the era of the cult of personalities and they claimed lots of these men as the 7th Messenger or angel of Revelation.
    New York and Pennsylvania seem to be a magnet for theses types of religions and their headquarters.
    There seemed to be this marrying and making the wife accept a celibate situation, living in compounds etc. These religions were so alike during that era. They had a fascination with their leaders being special.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/14/us/mother-divine-dead-peace-mission-leader.html

    I remember hearing a lot about him as a teenager now I know why. Stories are different but times were ripe for creature worship of one man, claiming to be god or the mouthpiece for god.

  8. Jacqueline says:

    Ann, yesterday I knew I would be busy and drained at the end of day so I answered you quickly. However you can’t just casually say, ” my husband has been accused of 16 million dollars potential fraud by the FCC.

    I think I would have visited my father also. But don’t doubt your choice in a mate along the lines of giving up your former religion. The two are like different, apples and oranges to me. You did as good as it gets with us humans in high places of authority, money ruins things when it gets in the mix. And you are strong enough for your children and your husband. It is not divine punishment for leaving, it’s something your life experience has equipped you to handle.
    This is however mentally a problem if in the news.
    I have to stay out of the news because of the effect it might have on my children. A judge once sealed a case for me, so I will pray you picky the right words at the right time for your children and your husband.
    Next week I move into a new office in our mental health sector and this I know is a blessing from Jehovah and Jesus.
    Btw, I have a very good friend in LA from when I traveled with tours, maybe you know this person. I would have to private message the name. Lol
    I travel tomorrow so today I wrap things up and head back home.
    Take care of yourself!

  9. Ann says:

    Hi Jacqueline, and Lee!

    Lee, in response to what you wrote earlier, I do not know that your family would have much trouble in Los Angeles. Or even SoCal for that matter. Most of the elders at my church are either non-white, or in a multi-ethnic marriage with copious children (this would not have been true twenty years ago). Fundamentalists are interested in one thing–making more fundamentalists. And they adopt en masse across all racial lines. But this is LA, which tends to be trend-setting. Even amongst the Bible Students, some of the elders have multi-ethnic grandchildren or godchildren.

    Carnegie and my dad go head-to-head every Sunday, as my dad is infinitely more Divine Plan and Bob doesn’t give any credence to Russell’s views where they lean into Adventism. I was there this past Sunday and asked Bob how he managed to stay in the Bible Students, being that his theology is far more liberal and he said that these are God’s people and it was important to maintain church unity. Which is nice because the ecclesia is SO small now. There used to be 150 people there every Sunday and now? At most 20, and their youngest consecrated member has just decided to stop coming. My eldest son’s heart is breaking over it because in some ways this kid was a role model for him.

    Meanwhile BACK IN FUNDIEVILLE, the son of the senior pastor of the church I left the Russellites for was charged by the SEC on, I think, something like 16 million dollars of attempted fraud, so again I’m feeling REALLY CONFIDENT about my life’s choices. My children who, unfortunately, can read and are constantly rummaging through my texts, are also moderately concerned about the situation as it sparks questions in that the senior pastor himself is being investigated for nepotism. This is going to be good, I can feel it.

    I didn’t make it past the first Oxygen episode because it is extremely depressing. I know you warned me about this. And because I already feel bad for every family that will be questioning their faith after seeing this, and the spiraling that follows. And even more depressing is that nearly every denomination has a similar story and coverups. This is all so bleak. The Oxygen special really captures the bleak.

    It may get to the point where most people who are still interested in the faith after all this will be in phone fellowships, Internet meetings, or home church/rented environments like the Bible Students, as so many people are scared of institutionalized Christianity now. It attracts too many power hungry types, and far too many predators.

    IN THE BLEAK OF IT ALL,
    Ann

    • jacqueline says:

      Ann, your life is about to become fun. You however will not be the wife to bring into the matter. 16 million, now that is a figure that makes you wonder if you believe the Bible why not spread it around to your friends, relatives or parishioners. Money us to be used, not hoarded. The world stage demands it. But talk to your children, this will hurt. I understand a young one leaving institutional religions. He is smart enough to know you have to move away from Russell’s books and progress in the Bible which is getting easier to understand. Or leave just to be more normal. All our Bible knowledge however let’s us know this is going to go God’s way and you can go to him without a huge congregation.
      I didn’t look at any of Oxygen. I have been talking to Trey Bundy over the years and knew it was coming. There are women pedophiles and adult male on male child pedophile in the cong. I was in 20years ago. It was known by elders and the male was open. I like small groups and am learning the real contents of just the Bible this way, no books or magazines. House Churches and call ins are more effective to me in our society today. They want money to run these huge organizations. I hope more can see they can walk away from any religion and just go to God. I wish they would stop writing letters saying they are gone and just go. To much authority over them is given when you do that. I guess you can tell I don’t like hierarchy or following one man religions. Lol
      So nice to see you can visit and talk. A lot if witnesses get DF so can’t talk to their friends and relatives if they visit. Ann you are more like Cher-el, pleasant, witty and nice. I do miss her. But so goes life. Got a horrible day ahead of me but got to deal with it. Out of commission the rest of the day.
      I wondered about Bob Carnegie also. Me,I couldn’t stand all that dissension over not wanting to look only in the Bible and following what one man thought 100 years ago before technology. His thoughts are based on the concept of 1914 being the end of the world. It was wasting my time to hear the same arguments for and against what Russell Said. But to each his own at least you can leave the Bible Students without trying to destroy family relations. I am just so happy and feeling free now. Also in small groups you probably would have had to just settle, because there aren’t any men available. I asked about this once and the elder said well the sisters have that cross to bear. I said no, they can go find another Christian like you men would do. So you did what you had to do and don’t worry about his troubles. This too shall pass.
      Take ❤ care.

    • Lee Anthony says:

      Ann,
      I always wondered how it was with Carnegie and the others in the L.A. Class. I would love to have Him on my podcast for an interview, I think our audience could gain alot from the experiences he has had through the years in the Bible student class as well as his bible based view point which I personally very much enjoy, I listen to his talks often and I like that he uses scripture and tries not to go beyond what is written.

  10. Ann says:

    Oh, and yes. I am 100% serious. But there are also many good things as well.

  11. Ann says:

    Hi Jacqueline,
    I’m really looking forward to the Oxygen special! Everyone needs to see these things. By the way, all over Twitter, I’ve seen the JW organization described as a “pedophile playground.” I wonder if they are using your term! At my church, after the recent events, the nickname we have for “Children’s Ministry” is “pedophile playground,” so we are co-opting your terminology.

    You know. Now that you mention it. It’s really hard for me to get a ticket. Two years ago my daughter was in the car when I was racing to a dance rehearsal. I ran a stop sign and when the police pulled me over, I actually said to the officer, “I’m so sorry! We are so late! Can you write me a ticket! Write me TWO, because I’m likely to run more stop signs!”

    And I was dead serious.

    The officer laughed, and my daughter watched in awe as he let me off with a warning.
    So you might be onto something!

    Okay, must run atm. I will be on here frequently, hunting through your articles because I’m very interested in the Judeo-Christian interpretations of scripture! Keep posting! And thank you for loving my family and for all your kind words!

    xoxo,
    A

    • jacqueline says:

      Ann, traffic stops are different for sure. He would have taken me out of the car if I had said that and a couple of tickets for sure! LOL I couldn’t look at the Oxygen show because I have handled cases and have seen the awful way the victims have been treated. A Psychologist today said the governing body and elders response to the cries of their congregant borders on satanic evil. I agree, because I just can’t look at it.
      And to think the witnesses that are still supporting this body of men think God approves only of this body and that they are the only people on earth that God is talking to.
      They believe this organization is what God is using, right or wrong. Even the governing body says “even if you can prove us wrong with scripture, you have to teach it until the body changes it.”

      So many professional people in my community saw this and I was in professional meetings for 2 days now. I just say all of you Know about my trial in our court here and I left that religion. So I was able to be looked on with respect instead of disdain because I sounded the alarm as far back as the 1980s. It is so sad that the parents of these victims would let their children suffer rather than call the police on those people. There are also female pedophiles in the religion according to som now 50-year-old young men.

      Ann on here we post a lot from other good voices of men and women that also have God’s Spirit. This allows others from high control religions with a hierarchy to see and reason to accept or not. At least it starts their brains to turning, It encourages them to do “Critical Thinking” and not accept these men’s words. They have a brain also to read the Bible and be confident that they are getting the sense of it without picking up a bunch of books.
      I enjoy talking to you Ann, you are not odd. You are not always talking about “making your calling and election sure”. That phrase was used so much among the BS that it made me shiver. But if that is what they believe, that’s okay. God got this.
      At least you can walk away and still have your family to talk too as is shown by you being able to talk to your family. How beautiful!
      So the BS gets a good mark for that, their cousins are crazy. Ha.
      Well, Good Night I got just 2 more days of meetings and I can sleep until 12 noon.

  12. Lee Anthony says:

    Ann and Jacqueline,
    I have enjoyed this conversation immensely. I wonder how my family would be viewed at these church’s spoken of here, quite a team are we, black and white with kids mixed and with a wife that takes nothing from no one and will let you know who your talking to wether your an elder, her boss, or the president don’t matter to her, and me , I encourage it since she respects me I am happy to have her stand for what’s right, Im a husband who loves standing on the bible as a form of warfare or in peace too. I take the whole book and attempt to take nothing from nor add anything too it. I would be called hebrew roots if there was a title for me however I share Jacquelines view of Yeshua being the only begotten son. I think the fundys would just hate to listen to me rant on the podcast. I do hope you continue to share here we all are different but love each other because of it, its easy to get along I think when we all let God decide the hellfire issue for himself and we just focus on following his Son. Carnegie is a very good bible student speaker by the way, only one I listen too. Lord bless us all in this crazy world!
    Lee Anthony

  13. Ann says:

    Hi Jacqueline!
    Your Christology sounds the same as mine, and actually, the same as most Bible Students in my generation who see Christ as Logos and not an angelic being, so I think I may have solved the mystery here: as to why you and Peter (the man in the YouTube channel above) endured the organizational aspects of Bible Students more than I ever did.

    You and Peter, I think, were in more Divine Plan ecclesias. The Los Angeles ecclesia, in which I grew up, was not Divine Plan. Meaning: Russell\’s works were not assumed to be divinely inspired. This is why, over a decade ago, the LA class dissolved its Sunday volume studies and created a Bible-only study. One of the major elders in this ecclesia is a Hollywood mogul who prefers a contextual Bible-only approach, and many do not subscribe to theories like the archangel Michael, or even the idea that the 7 churches in Revelation represent time periods. I was in the Chicago class for a few years, and didn\’t understand why the brethren didn\’t fight more in studies.

    I have to run, but want to quickly explain what I meant by JWs and BS being ahead in their theology. But first, an important clarification:

    I still don\’t quite know what is meant by nominal Christianity in a modern context. Churches like Joel Osteen or these televangelists, or maybe the large Pentecostal organizations seen in documentaries like \”Jesus Camp\” could qualify. But within Christendom, there is a concept called \”BIBLE-BELIEVING CHURCHES.\” This is code for fundamentalism–churches that believe in a literal interpretation of Scripture. So here are some key differences in the theological approach of fundamentalist Christians, and the JW/BS groups that I\’ve noted:

    1.) The entry doctrine of fundamentalism is that God created the earth in six LITERAL 24 hour days. This is not to be questioned. Forget fossils and tree rings. Forget you ever took a science class. Do not EVER question this doctrine, as to do so means you do not believe the Bible. For this reason, fundamentalist Christians almost universally homeschool. I do teach old earth in my home. It is not a well-protected secret, but I\’ve been given a pass because my husband teaches Six-day, and everyone at my church knows that I have been irrevocably tainted by Russelitism and might not be saved.
    2.) Protestant Christians are unaware of most theological controversies. These are all handled by their seminary trained leaders, our priestly class. Individual parishioners do not engage in apologetics.
    3.) Bible Students show up to conventions with diaglotts, concordances, commentaries, etc. Little doctrinal warriors. The JWs I have met are the BIGGEST pains, as they are well-equipped to trounce Trinitarians. I don\’t know what they did to you guys, but the JWs are leaders in this area (far more than the BS)–it is a massacre every time. I remember watching the James White vs. Stafford debate with my fundamentalist friends (Stafford pretty clearly wins this debate) and how silent it was after the video was over.
    4.) What you say regarding the JWs and women is interesting. It sounds similar to fundamentalism. First of all, women do not work outside the home in fundamentalism. This is also a natalist religion, in which women are saved through childbirth. In the BS and JWs, some choose not to have families. That would not be permitted here. In fact, it would be seen as Satanic. Most women do not practice birth control, or if they do, it is done secretly. Average family size is 4+. Females are homeschooled to ensure their purity and viability as future mothers. You do not argue or contradict your husband (we totally do, but only behind closed doors, and we only tell our closest friends, who might sell you out at any time, so try not to have friends). To do so may result in the formal discipline of cantankerous women. I don\’t have a joint checking account or access to my husband\’s money. My purview is the home. Standard fundie rules.
    5.) Hell is eternal and torturous. There is no other interpretation to be entertained here. Now, on the surface, most fundamentalist Christians seem like my aunt. Sweet, gentle, and tolerant of people\’s mistakes. Well, this is true for the first five minutes. But because hell is real and horrific to these people, contrary opinions lead to such. The flock must be protected.
    6.) This one might be more familiar to a JW than a BS, in fundamentalism, YOUR ELDERS ARE CHOSEN BY GOD. To contradict an elder is to go against your shepherd who has been elected by God himself to this position, to be the authority, and to protect you from grievous wolves. My church formally disciplines members at least once a month, sometimes more if necessary. Keeps us respectful.
    7.) You are saved, or not saved. You\’re either going to heaven, or most assuredly hell. But if you are saved, its \”Once Saved Always Saved\” and you are predestined into salvation. You\’d think this would be easy, and that Christians who feel saved would be sinning all over the place, enjoying their security of salvation, but it\’s actually just the opposite. There is an extreme paranoia to bear fruit, because if you don\’t, no one will think you are saved, and you\’ll have the social status of a click beetle.
    8.) Your most important product as a fundamentalist parent is your children. This is the opposite of the BS. If you are fundamentalist, and all of your children are not saved and walking with the Lord. You have failed. Cry in a corner. Leave the church. Spare yourself the humiliation. May the Lord have mercy on your soul. Your children are going to burn for eternity.
    9.) Fundamentalism doesn\’t turn the other cheek. They crush their enemies like in Scientology.

    And that\’s it, really.

    Do you mean my cousin Joanna or Cher-el?!! I would LOVE to be compared to either of them, but honestly, those girls are angels. They are workhorses for the kingdom. I really am like the worst member of my family. I don\’t say that in false humility, its just a fact.

    xoxo!
    Ann
    P.S. If God is blessing the Aryan race, someone should tell them. Currently, close to 70% of American suicides, are conducted by white males.

    • jacqueline says:

      ANN, ANN you are not any type of worse member of your family, you are just for real! But I love your wit and explanations are just so complete. The love bombing ran out for me.
      Cher-el is my girl! Joanna is very sweet and takes after their mother but I know and identify with Cher-el. She had us in stitches on a Facebook thread one day. (the conversation where I got castigated for letting my niece call Peter’s relative a racist. Like I could stop my niece who lived in Timbuktu and calls things as she sees it.)
      You are going to love Cher-el’s story: We all somehow got on police stopping a black person in contrast to a White person. Some Bible students didn’t feel there would be a difference.
      But Cher-el told her story of SPEEDING, ok, but when stopped she didn’t have her driver’s license, ok, on top of that she had forgotten to renew her license plate!! I said Jail for me and tow the car!
      Cher-el said he let her go with a warning to get those things taken care of. My family laughed until we cried! By this time people were following Cher-el and me as we told our real situations and Cher-el’s experience was the exact opposite of mine. We were all just having a fun-filled conversation that night on Facebook. It was just fun and everybody on my side thought it was funny and just loved my friend Cher-el. But it all went south when some in the Chicago class got serious with their objections to there being a difference in outcomes. I tried to diffuse the situation but my niece is not a JW or anything, she has command of the human language and is a writer. So she gently said one sentence. “Aunt Jackie you are wasting your breath, that lady is a racist.”
      So I immediately shut down the conversation and erased it so no more BS could keep coming on to see it or comment. It got hot that night.
      I hated to erase Cher-el and my conversation because they were hilarious!
      The next fourth Sunday I was almost preached into second death for not reprimanding my niece and pulling down the entire conversation where I told a few BS elders to mind their own business and not to ever come on and tell me what I better do! Their phraseology was not well thought through. So that is the loving Chel-el I know and love.
      I wanted to go to the funeral but it would have been like giving the elders another bullet because they missed me with the first one. And that occasion just should have been the focus not me.
      So, that being said are you serious about your religion? It sounds a little like witnesses in some respects but I have never been afraid to let an elder or Circuit/District overseer how I felt. (these are men higher than elders) I was threatened with disfellowshipping by a District overseer if I consented to be a witness for the prosecution in a child molestation case against the witness organization. He was shocked when I responded “don’t you ever call into my home and threaten me ever again! That was a no, no for sure within the witnesses. But I learned early to keep your sanity in a high control religion you have to be no-nonsense with those in authority and they will stay out of your way.
      I have had a very rich life experience, it has made me the Bible only warrior that I am now.
      Oh, BTW, you mention the difference in your class and the Grand plan Bible students. Well, no one told me, and I was sending people from my work on the friendsofjehovahwitnesses website to get baptized at a Dawn Convention!! I never knew the difference. I joined the PBS board because Joanna reads for them and the elder in Chicago was indignant at me. I couldn’t figure out all this animosity against me joining the Christian question Radio Broadcast so I didn’t.
      A brother in Br. Carnegie’s class explained to me that he knew I didn’t know from how I just was mixing everybody up in a bowl and stirring them together. It is the Hollywood brother you spoke of. When I had had it with the Grand plan brothers I wrote in on their website to see if they would let our little class join theirs online because they seemed not so crazy.
      Well, he said no way was he answering in writing, he had to hear my voice when he told me they detected I wasn’t aware there were different factions of Bible Students. I was driving an RV and he wanted me to make sure I parked safely so he could “school me”. There was laughter and tears as we sorted it out. He kindly answered all my questions, a gentle giant indeed.
      I guess it is true that God protects fools and children .ha, ha.
      But like you, I am going to die in my Bible only relationship with Christ and Jehovah. I have learned to live with the family members that shun me, even very close to my heart ones.
      I do feel sorry for the way the beliefs of the BS and JW affected the family life of so many. I noticed a lot of BS didn’t have children nor married because as I said before, the religion only was built to last for a certain amount of time, not 100 years, so they kept their lives unencumbered.
      JW once said there were no children in the ark so they said don’t have children for the 1975 failed prediction. I had babies in 1970, 73′,74′ and 1975. So you see I must didn’t believe them.
      So won’t it be beautiful when we find out we all got most of it wrong and God says okay everybody, listen up! Jesus is going to clean this all up for you for 1,000 years. We listen and get our names in the Book of Life and live on a New Earth from the ages to the ages. And I do personally believe satan is being tormented in the lake of fire. Out of existence isn’t justice for him.
      And then we will all have a really good laugh!
      My I wish you could come on our Saturday night call-in one time. This Saturday we will look at the OXYGEN exposure of the horrible pedophile paradise of the JW.
      Take Care Ann and now I got a new friend, you are definitely Cher-el’s relative. Cheers.

  14. Ann says:

    Hi Jacqueline,
    I will come on later and respond to everything else, but I wanted to be clear I meant Arian as in the Non-Trinitarian doctrine of Arius:D. I realize that can make all the difference!

    -A

    • jacqueline says:

      Ann, I thought that is what you meant. I just might be Arian. Bible Students and I disagreed o the nature of Christ. They say he is a created being and the Witnesses but I don’ see it that way.
      Humans beget humans and dogs, dos, fish little fish and on and on from the birth of an offspring.
      Jehovah God begets a God, like all producing after their kind. We are in their image so we should understand that a GOD will birth, beget, a baby God. He births, BEGETS a God. He said Jesus was his only son that was birthed or begotten.
      I read the Bible without allegorizing now. I know what beget is as it is mentioned in the Bible so many times and we have animals that birth within themselves, only one. But I do believe what God says that they together created all other things.
      The word ELOHIM is plural, I see it as Him having all within him the power to birth like a female and a male. ( His nature is different but in human language, I speak.)
      I believe Jesus and Jehovah are of the same material for lack of a better word.But separate and distinct and I see His Spirit in vision in Revelation standing 7 in front of Him so it is distinct.
      I don’t believe Jesus is Michael. That doctrine bothers on heresy to me. Michael is a mighty Angel for sure but he needs help sometimes to fight. JESUS WILL OPEN HIS MOUTH AND THE WHOLE UNIVERSE WILL ROCK! He is not a mere created angel. I disagreed with the Witnesses on this from at least 10 years old when I was reprimanded by a Circuit Overseer for saying things like that.
      The Bible Students dumb Jesus down just like the Witnesses. Both have to insert Russell or a Governingbody on a high spot so to me they dishonor Jesus.
      Ann to me Jesus is not a mere angel but the WORD of God when he speaks God told him or He knows what his father wants. They are that intertwined. Some husbands and wives, even twins have that closeness but not the same but they sometimes move almost as one. So why people follow (Jerome) I think on this trinity thing. I don’t argue the trinity with people nor the deity of Christ with Bible Students or Witnesses. I believe Jesus is a God but not his Father Jehovah.

      Ann, although I haven’t met you, but you remind me of your cousin that is in the Chicago class. I just love her so much. I loved Sis Marge, so kinder soul have I ever met.
      She didn’t turn against me when a Chicago Bible Student Elder gave a damming talk against me with the approval of the Chicago Bible Students body of elders on a fouth Sunday with many visitors present. I just wrote him off as what I had come to see that class as.
      Take Care ANN

      I

  15. Ann says:

    Hi Jacqueline!
    I think my comments might be longer than my article…

    And as to that, if the article is proving helpful, then absolutely keep it on your site! I hope it can be edifying. I hadn\’t really thought about it much until you commented on Proclamation, but I think, honestly, I wouldn\’t have written that article now, in 2020. It was written in 2017, and I was still riding high. The Bible Students were dying out as planned, and despite the scandals in the SBC and Sovereign Grace Ministries, MY particular fold was doing terrific. I would visit my dad often, gloating that the TRUE church was going strong, and he might want to think about converting to my side before it\’s too late.

    I was wrong. Six months after writing the article, my church system fell under heavy scrutiny for some pretty powerful sins within the leadership, and from that point on, the story only got worse. If you\’re seeing ads for the JW special on Oxygen featuring the pedophilia scandals, know that the JWs are not alone. This is a huge problem in all of Christendom. I have now witnessed it firsthand, things that I would have never thought possible in my pseudo-Calvinist haven. In fact, the very pastor who converted me, was protecting another pastor who is now in prison, indicted as a violent sex offender. The churches also protected a known pedophile, and kept his name hidden from their congregants, which is why he was in our house on a weekly basis, taking pictures of my children, and none of us were supposed to bat an eye for fear of being gossipy or ungodly, until he ended up on a Megan\’s Law list. And there\’s so much more, its practically endless.

    Point is, I wouldn\’t recommend my side of the world to any of you on this site. We deserve what we are getting. Moreover, if you are a former JW or Bible Student, you are doctrinally superior, well ahead of the average Protestant. And I really mean that. I\’ll explain.

    As I mentioned earlier, I was asked to write that article for a ministry which works primarily to free Christians from the outlier cults. For the mainline denominations, converting these groups has been so ghastly, some of our best apologists can\’t get much past the JWs. My job was to explain why. But in reality, quite a few Arians are created in our seminary. There\’s actually a recipe for these conversions. So, I will share with you the other side of the game: How to Deconvert a Mainline or Fundamentalist Protestant to an NT Cultist Christian in Several Longsuffering Steps:

    1. Read Pagan Christianity, by George Barna
    2. Read every book ever written by David Bercot
    3. Read TRUTH IN TRANSLATION by Jason BeDuhn (This is the most important step. After this book, your convert will likely have a breakdown that pushes them to atheism, or…if they are really faithful…)
    4. Read Divine Truth or Human Tradition by Patrick Navas (At this point the convert will begin to think only a handful of people on the planet are practicing the true faith, which is pretty much the conclusion of any truth-seeking Christian.)
    5. Finish them off with Jesus Undefeated by Giles (Not a perfect book, but it will strongly establish the universalist roots of the early church).

    At this point, your convert will be online hunting down any groups that resemble the church he\’s reading about. He will realize that even the modern Anabaptists (Followers of the Way are an amazing group!) are preaching pagan doctrines. There are basically, only two organized Christian groups offering Christianity that looks anything like the first two centuries of the church. But he or she will be terrified of the JWs. So then…he looks to the Bible Students. Picks up the 5th volume. Realizes these people have been teaching this for 150 years. Game over.

    The above recipe, creates a Bible Student who may end up joining the Witnesses, or an atheist who gives up on the whole ordeal. I always wondered where the seminarians who convert to Arianism during Greek translation went, seems the JWs are inheriting them. The lust for chronology, obsessions with Kingdom planning, and the unbelievable demise of their fecundity and family lives, do not always make the Bible Students a desirable option. But, in light of church history, I do not know of any group in existence that is more doctrinally in-line with what the first Christians believed than the Bible Students.

    Don\’t get me wrong. I married into fundamentalism, and plan to die comfortably in my pedophile paradise. But with the exception of my husband, I don\’t trust anyone out here anymore, least of all the women who are married to these pastors and defend them to the death, even after incarceration. I\’m going to have a lot of time to rethink my life\’s choices.

    Anyway, if you ever find yourself with 200 hours of free time. Reading Jason BeDuhn\’s Truth in Translation is a terrific way to ruin your life:) I know most exJWs are already Arian, but the conspiracy that goes into translation is better than anything on TV!

    Hearts!
    Ann

    • jacqueline says:

      Ann good afternoon, and thank you so much for this rich information. Ann, I am so glad you are letting us keep the link up. But I am a grandmother and mother and am aware my children might write something that they want to be erased and I don’t want to hurt or cause anyone distress. But your article explained why it is so difficult to get through better than any I have seen so thanks.
      I think Russell’s thinking was only meant to go on a few years after 1914, Rutherford, 1925, present-day Jehovah witnesses 1975. The theology is based on one concept of dates, dates, dates. None of them ever happen so by Bible standards if a so-called prophet predicts and it doesn’t come true, don’t listen too deeply to him. Even if they are just acting like a prophet.

      I had posted in early January the Oxygen feature and just last night I made it an article so those wanting to know what it is about can go to youtube. https://askjacqueline.life/the-witnesses/

      You don’t know me but Barbara Anderson and I have warned of the deep pedophile issues as early as the 1980s for me. I was the first one or at least one of the first to get in touch with Australia long before the “Royal Commission On Jehovah Witnesses Sex Abuse” convened. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyAo-Md-OZU&list=TLPQMDYwMjIwMjAToX0JEYaLuw&index=1
      In 1980 while helping a victim in Ohio the elder confessed to getting away with it because of a sex ring. The same in 2010 when I got a note from a victim in Australia. So this sex thing within religions is terrible!! I don’t really trust my grandkids with any men within the Jehovah witness organization and I continue to warn my adult children.

      You see the warden of the prisons tried to inform the witnesses that the only people studying with them were their pedophiles, but they baptized these men anyway and with all the single sisters within the religion they devastated children. The pedophiles informed other pedophiles that Jehovah’s witnesses is a pedophile paradise because they put down women and are hierarchical. Children are at risk if you stop that “lioness protective spirit” within a mother.
      The governing body apologized for this horrible act of bringing these men on the sisters but it was too late they were embedded. Jehovah’s witness religion is highly sexualized.
      I am with you on not recommended that anyone congregate in big churches. I advocate small Bible study groups of no more than 6-12. The purpose is to study the Bible not form a religion and parents should have family Bible study with their children instead of Sunday Schools and Camps for children away from their parents’ oversight when young. That is just my opinion, which doesn’t mean a thing, lol.
      That is why we have these conference calls to get together in a small group on Thursday. Then on Saturday we have socialization on world events or just listen to testimonies or sing a song. Hahttps://askjacqueline.life/freeconferencecall/.

      Now to the MEAT OF YOU STATEMENT. Is this what you mean when you say Arians? If so I have a comment but first I need to understand what an Arian is.

      Is it this? Arianism is a nontrinitarian Christological doctrine which asserts the belief that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who was begotten by God the Father at a point in time, a creature distinct from the Father and is therefore subordinate to him, but the Son is also God. Wikipedia

      Now I don’t really think the Bible Students or Witnesses are very correct in their doctrines at all, some of them like all religions. But they have major errors. Plus I find the Bible Students to be too political for me. It was just hard being there for 9 years, each class sort of hate the other and bar this one from speaking at their convention and then that one. It was just a backbiting tangle of confusion for me.
      I just did my little thing of helping ex witnesses get out without committing suicide. Then The Chicago Class elders didn’t like that I never pushed Russell as the seventh Messenger or “Ye Olde Faithful Slave”. So I just got enough and packed my bags and left going straight into the Bible with anyone that wants to discuss it.

      I just noticed you used the term “pedophile paradise”. I am known for using that term! I told my experience on the Rick Feason website in 2010 and people thought I was crazy.
      I ended it with Sex, sex, sex. That is what I saw within the Jehovah witness religion. I am done with any organized “Church” as far as joining or attending on a regular basis. I will go to a David Jeremiah event once in a while at the gospel sing fest cause I love to “kum ba yah”(sing spiritual songs lively).
      We are learning so much with just the Bible and Holy Spirit or at least we are trying and not becoming atheist as some witnesses have done. But they are sort of changing now that they have more of us running out of that Organization headed BY 9 BILLIONAIRE gods.

      I will wait to see what you say on Arian before I address it. I was told in 2018 by several Bible Student men at the General Convention that God was favoring the Arian Race right now. But I don’t think that is what you are talking about.

      Loving meeting you every minute like I love your first cousin,
      Jacqueline

      PS: Write as much as you please we have a reading audience of 14, 000 since we opened up last year.

  16. Ann says:

    Hi Jacqueline,
    I was sent your comment on my Proclamation article by email, I am the author of the article you linked. I am so sorry, but there has some confusion–very understandably. I don\’t actually think the Bible Students are a cult. I know the world and mainstream Christians consider the BS a cult, hands down, but that is because they are trained to believe all Arian groups are cults. When I wrote this article, I gave the publication full editorial rights. They chose the title and header imagery, but I felt my article made a pretty decent case for the BS not being a cult, or at least, if it is a cult, it\’s the least culty cult in existence.

    I know the man in the YouTube channel above. He has legitimate grievances and his family kept terrible secrets. His pain is understandable. Unfortunately, my brother and I had the opposite of his experience. We had godly parents. We loved those eight hour indoctrination camps, lived for conventions, and only left the Bible Students because the Kingdom keeps failing to arrive as scheduled. So I hope my article is not used to justify the image of the BS as an abusive cult. That would be the very opposite of my intention. My job is to illustrate how difficult doctrinal conversions can be for former \”cult\” members. This is actually an indictment of the larger Christian movements, as they have a TERRIBLE time deconverting \”cultists.\” And this is because, many of these cults to a better job instilling doctrine into their members, than Christendom does its own believers. If you are a former JW, be proud. Your theological education is light years beyond the average Christian in the pews. Good luck getting the Trinity passed you guys.

    When I was asked to write for Proclamation, a friend expected that I would include all the juicy bits, the personal failings of elders and families, the Russelite scandals, but I didn\’t. That wouldn\’t have been fair. After all, my own church system has been so wracked by scandals, we\’ve made national headlines so many times over the last ten years. Almost every major icon of this faith is facing charges of molestation cover-ups, sexual addiction, drug addiction, shoddy financial dealings, nepotism, extortion–and yet my dad is still standing. Even my most Orthodox friends are noticing that my Arian parents are still faithfully manning their fair booth, godlying up every day, and are somehow keeping spotless from the world. And that\’s really the biggest problem with the Bible Students. The best Bible Students represent the best Christians. Unbeatable devotion. Unfortunately, there are only five of them, and one just died.

    Anyway, I wish you good luck going forward, and that you meet many strong Christians along the way with whom to fellowship. And I\’m sorry for everything you have suffered, and if your time in the Bible Students resulted in spiritual abuse, then you are fully justified in labeling the movement as an abusive cult. But, because my experience has been just the opposite, know that I am not comfortable with that label. That is not what I intended to convey. To me, they are the least cultish group extant in Christianity, and they are preservers of first and second century Christian doctrine. The sixth volume alone could revolutionize mainline Christianity and I would still be a Bible Student if it weren\’t for that fact that I want to spend the apocalypse amongst Calvinists with guns.

    Best Wishes,
    Ann

    • jacqueline says:

      Ann hello!! and thanks so much for coming on and commenting.I can understand how you write something and the editor mis-labels it. Did you want me to take it down? It was not on the page it is on now, it was just as an article I found but someone took it and other stuff down and I had to spend a day retrieving information, so I put it on a page that is difficult to hack because of an inbedded you tube.
      I loved your Aunt to death and I know I would have met you at the funeral. Your family in Chicago and J and her husband are so nice. I try now to not subject myself to so much stress so I chose not to attend. But my deepest sympathies to you and your family.
      You tell me if you want the article taken down and I will trash it. I never knew it was out there, I post what I am sent and what I see that will help our over 14,000 readers work their way out of a concept that has held them captive. I was born within the witnesses/ Bible Students and my childhood was just the best!
      I have no need for the in-between people in both segments of teachings. I find so much information by listening to more voices as I believe the Spirit works on Christians. None of us are perfect by a long shot. I try not to know too much about the individual but listen to what they are gleaning and sharing from the Bible.
      I know longer believe there is anything special about the concepts put forth by Russell and find many Christians all over the world are being beheaded for Christ. I am so sorry I listened to the concept that Nominal Christianity was so off. I now realize they have so much right now as many serious seekers are understanding revelation and changing what they formerly believed.
      I don’t get caught up in the trinity, that is another site, fojw, that I used to be on. I feel some of the doctrines and concepts of our former religions are just as bad. We are all trying and God can sort it out if we don’t get discouraged.
      I have not so far been in a religious environment that is as harsh as the Bible Students and the Witnesses. The experiences of not just me but many, many more have been negative.
      But that is okay because Jesus said just two or three and He will be with us.
      So we have a very small Bible Study class on our free conference call and any are invited but we don’t have a need for the Bible Student or Witness view because all of us have spent 20-70 years in them and we know what the concepts are.
      Bible Students sometimes don’t accept that persons have reviewed and said no to their concepts because they really truly believe what they have found in the writings of Russell. That’s okay, I am not the belief police. lol, We on here are just trying to dig out.
      I really am glad you saw my note to you. And just so glad you came on. Do you want me to remove the link from that page.?
      Just say the word and it is done! I got to run and might not see your reply for a few hours. I have clients today.
      Take Care, Jacqueline

  17. jacqueline says:

    I will post our conversations on this article later, I am trying to figure out how to copy comments from your tube.

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