BIBLE Study & RESEARCH – with Dave

Berean Bible Study Group- Welcome


Dave will use any media you have available. WELCOME!


David H. from Tennessee is moderator     

Every Thursday at 7 PM (CST) 8 pm (EST) 5 pm (MT) you are welcome to join our Bible discussions using just the Scriptures. We welcome your thoughts and research.

Please scroll down to the comment section for information on the current week’s study material. Thank yout.


Acts 17:10-11 KJV

(10)  And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

(11)  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

While we certainly claim NO increased nobility, we practice receiving:

“the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

We WELCOME all who are seriously wanting to study scriptural matters without relying on a single person, group or an organization of human filters.

We believe in and practice :

In scriptural essentials – UNITY

In interpretation – LIBERTY

In ALL things – CHARITY

Summaries and updates will be posted below after each study. Thank you



130 Responses to BIBLE Study & RESEARCH – with Dave

  1. Bro. Dave says:


    REMINDER, our Memorial Observance on April 7, 2020, will commence at:
    8:00 PM Eastern;
    7:00 PM Central;
    6:00 PM Mountain;
    5:00 PM Pacific.
    Please click on:
    for connection options.

    If you (or us!) are having difficulty logging in for the Memorial Observation, here\’s a link to an audio recording of an earlier Memorial service that you can download to your device (you supply the emblems):

    Tonight our group studied Bro. Lee\’s podcast about the importance of the Passover Feast, focusing on its history (Exo_12:11-51) and the deep meaning of Jesus\’ fulfillment (1Co_5:7; Heb_11:28).

    Differences between Passover and Memorial

    In today\’s timing, the day begins at 12:00:01 Local Time.
    In Biblical Israel timing, the new day begins at sunset.

    Today we use Gregorian calendar.
    In Biblical Israel, they used a lunar calendar.

    Last of 10 plagues on Egypt.
    HOW to celebrate Passover.
    Repeated in Leviticus.
    Give date (Nisan 14)

    WHY they celebrate Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread.

    WHEN and HOW to have Passover.

    Nisan 14 – Passover Lev_23:4-8
    Day AFTER 15th – Feast of Unleavened Bread Lev_23:6
    Day after 7th Day Sabbath = Feast of Firstfruits. Lev_23:9-14

    Now to Jesus\’ Time.

    John calls the day Jesus died as Passover, while other 3 Gospels refer to day Jesus instituted Memorial was Passover.

    Gives time frame.

    Preparing for Memorial – observing Passover.

    Gives time frame.

    John gives day and time

    In that time Passover and Unleavened Bread became the same thing.

    Jesus already arrested.
    Noon on PREPARATION DAY for Passover.
    A different day?
    This was a Special Passover: If the Passover fell on the weekly Sabbath, i.e., on Friday, they began sooner, that they might dispatch their business by the time that the Sabbath began. Hence, they called it the preparation of the Passover.

    Preparation Day.
    Nisan 14
    Jesus taken down just before sundown, because next day was special sabbath.

    Matthew, Mark Luke all talk about Last Supper.
    John leaves it out, but gives us the time of the Passover.


    NEXT day was Sabbath, the 14th.
    Sunset to Sunset.

    Points out time when Jesus killed.

    All of Jerusalem getting sacrifices together and slaughtering them.

    Exo_12:43; Exo_12:46
    Not a bone of Passover lamb was to be broken.

    Psa_34:20; Joh_19:33; Joh_19:36
    Jesus dies before His legs are broken. He is taken off cross.

    Purge out — Put away.
    Before the Jews gathered to eat their Passover lamb they searched everywhere throughout their habitations, for anything containing leaven or putrefaction, bones, crusts, everything
    The old leaven — Anger, malice, hatred, strife
    May be a new lump — Pure, unadulterated loaf; a proper representative of the Body of Christ.
    Christ our Passover – Passover lamb that was sacrificed.


    Jesus used Passover to institute Memorial.

    Jonah said he would be down three days/nights.

    Killed on Passover, day after was Sabbath, day after that was Firstfruits, when Jesus was resurrected.


    Jesus warned Pharisees (teachers of the Law) about traditions of man. (Mat_15:3)



    50 days after Jesus resurrected is same day as coming of Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

  2. Bro. Dave says:


    Due to our new ZOOM connection, effective 4/2/2020. we will return to our normal Thursday study time at:
    8:00 PM ET
    7:00 PM CT
    6:00 PM MT
    5:00 PM PT


    REMINDER, our Memorial Observance on April 7, 2020, will commence at:
    8:00 PM Eastern;
    7:00 PM Central;
    6:00 PM Mountain;
    5:00 PM Pacific.
    Please click on:
    for connection options.

    If you (or us!) are having difficulty logging in for the Memorial Observance, here’s a link to an audio recording of an earlier Memorial service that you can download to your device (you supply the emblems):

    REMINDER: SPECIAL – on April 2, our group will study Bro. Lee’s podcast about the importance of the Passover Feast, focusing on its history (Exo_12:11-51) and the deep meaning of Jesus’ fulfillment (1Co_5:7; Heb_11:28).

    Revelation 20:5
    But the — This begins the transition to the time when the first resurrection is complete. Then the general resurrection of the dead and dying world will begin.
    This may be an interpolation (A spurious word or passage inserted in the genuine writings of an author.) – probably crept into the text by accident in the fifth century; at first a marginal comment made by a reader expressive of his thought, later copied into the text by transcribers who failed to distinguish between the text and the comment.
    It is not found in any manuscripts older than the seventh century.
    Not found in any Greek manuscript of earlier date than the fifth century. Nor is it found in the ancient Syriac.
    Neither is it found in the Syriac-Peshito, the mother tongue of Jesus and the apostles, written in the first or second century and is older than any Greek manuscript extant.
    It is missing, too, in the Vatican No. 1160, a manuscript which many Biblical scholars claim is of special clearness and harmony with the most ancient ones.
    There are but two known copies of the New Testament, in Greek, ante-dating the fifth century–the Sinaitic and Vatican manuscripts–both dated about AD 350.
    The Sinaitic Codex was probably made AD 331-350.
    Vatican manuscript 1209 is very accurate, but is no authority here because it is incomplete, lacking Hebrews from 9:15 as well as all of Timothy, Titus, Philemon and Revelation.

    It is NOT included in the current Revised Version nor current New World Translation, nor American Standard.
    It is included in the Diaglott, 1901 and 2015 American Standard, Amplified, Douay-Rheims, Rotherham, Tyndale, Wycliffe, and Young’s Literal.
    It also appears enclosed in parenthesis in both the Concordant Literal and New International Version.
    But NOT in the Coptic, nor many Greek manuscripts of later date, including such notably exact and careful manuscripts as the Codex Cantabuliensis of the seventh century and the Vatican 1160 of the eleventh century.
    Rev_22:18-19 has always more or less deterred men from falsifying the canonical books. so probably few interpolations have been made intentionally, usually by copying a marginal note or comment into the text.
    The Alexandrine manuscript, written about AD 450, has the text, and merely omits the words “but” and “again.”
    If we read this passage in the Alexandrine mss, it is possible to believe that the “rest of the dead” refers to those Old Testament Ancient Worthies who were in the world before Christ’s act of atonement – “the thousand years” (see Rev_20:2) – had been accomplished.
    They could not be said to have lived G326 G303 G2198, in the complete sense in which John uses the word, not having known Christ; for “in him was life” (Joh_1:4; Joh_5:40, etc.).
    But by Christ’s redeeming work, these were placed on a level with Christians (Luk_7:28, KJV, “John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he;” also Heb_11:39-40, KJV, “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect”).
    This is the first resurrection.
    These words could refer both to the reigning of those mentioned in Rev_20:4, and to the living of those in Rev_20:5.
    This “first resurrection” could be understood as the spiritual rising with Christ, which is a consequence of his redeeming work.
    It is to be noticed that John nowhere makes use of the phrase, “second resurrection,” though he does use the words, “second death.”
    Both the “first resurrection” and the “second death”appear to spiritual operations.

    In light of all this, the QUESTION arises:
    Just who, exactly, has been given the authority to decide whether a part of the Bible is condemned as “spurious” or “interpolation”?
    Every individual uses best judgement to determine whether it is original.
    Usually determined by whether or not words/verses appear in the oldest editions.
    YHWH protected His Word (forever) and kept the Scriptures together throughout the ages without allowing mankind to ruin them.
    Also, mankind put their lives on the line and many were martyred for the Word.
    Bible preserved as YHWH’s Message – no one can stop it.
    YHWH gives us great latitude in our searching (ex: Isaiah in Dead Sea Scrolls).
    Some organizations teach that all survivors of Armageddon and the dead would require 1000 years to be declared completely alive.
    SECOND QUESTION: If YHWH has protected the preservation of His Word for all these thousands of years, can we understand why any “spurious” or “interpolated” words and verses were also protected?
    These words or verses weren’t in the text, but was in the margins, and mankind included these in text at later times.

    Rev 20:10-15 – Harmonize this with Rev 20:6 and Rev 20:5. There is a first resurrection, which suggests a second resurrection – the Great Throne Resurrection.
    Rev_20:11 – seems to begin another resurrection AFTER Satan is destroyed. Or is this another view of something that has already happened?
    Would those resurrected here miss being tested by Satan?
    First 3 words in Rev_20:1 – “And I saw”. Usually means a change of vision.
    Rev_20:4 seems to be the FIRST resurrection (looking back in time). Revelation is full of going back in time.
    Rev_20:12-13 – These dead are being resurrected. A subsequent (second?) resurrection? Results in looking like whoever added the first sentence in Rev_20:5 understood that rest of the dead are NOT resurrected until after Satan destroyed.
    Most groups who believe in resurrection believe that there will be a first, and then a second. However, is it possible that there will be more than two resurrections?

    We need to be careful that we do not teach others our own bias, our own preferences.
    Interpretation of the Scriptures cannot come from man, but must come from YHWH thru His Word.
    In the end their Truth will be revealed to all.

    Bro. Lee’s podcast about the importance of the Passover Feast, focusing on its history (Exo_12:11-51) and the deep meaning of Jesus’ fulfillment (1Co_5:7; Heb_11:28).

  3. Bro. Dave says:


    Due to network congestion, effective 3/26/2020. we will begin our Thursday study group at:
    8:15 PM ET
    7:15 PM CT
    6:15 PM MT
    5:15 PM PT

    REMINDER: SPECIAL – on April 2, our group will study Bro. Lee’s podcast about the importance of the Passover Feast, focusing on its history (Exo_12:11-51) and the deep meaning of Jesus’ fulfillment (1Co_5:7; Heb_11:28).

    Resume Rev 20:4, starting with “With Christ”.

    With Christ — Joint-heirs in his Kingdom and in his inheritance in the Abrahamic Covenant.
    Compare with Rev_1:18 and Rev_2:8
    Seeing the resurrection of saints back to life.
    Is the “reign” in heaven (1Co_15:38-49) or on earth (Rev_5:10)?
    “He (the Christ, Head and Body) must reign till he has put all enemies under his feet.” (1Co_15:25)

    A thousand years — To accomplish the complete victory over death and the grave will be the very object of the establishment of the Kingdom, and will require a thousand years.
    Agreeing with Peter’s explanation that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years with men, and a thousand years with men as one day with the Lord. 2Pe_3:8; Psa_90:4)
    This same period is elsewhere called “the day of Christ,” the epoch during which The Christ shall rule earth.

    In that thousand years all evil and every enemy of righteousness shall be destroyed–even death [Adamic] the great enemy. 1Co_15:26

    Some do not believe that this thousand years is a literal time.
    I personally believe it literally.
    Others believe that this is spiritual and that Yeshua (Jesus) bound the devil when He defeated him on the cross.
    If that were so, who is this doing these terrible things that have been nipping at believers’ heels all this time that they have been working for YHWH?
    I believe the devil is real. I believe he is a real entity.
    Just as satan had YHWH’s permission to bring trials and tribulation on Job (Job_1:6-12), today’s Christians are allowed to go through tribulation here on this earth.
    I can find no Scriptural nor historical evidence that suggests the devil is locked up now.

    Rev_20:4 and Rev_5:10 seem to indicate that the martyrs and those who refuse to take the mark of the beast will reign with Christ right here on this earth.
    Christians, from all generations, will live here on this earth during the millennium and will rule and reign with the Lord Jesus. They will rule with Christ during those years but will not be equal as they will reign as His subordinates.

    This 1000 year Millennial reign of Yeshua Christ here on this earth, I believe, has to be 1000 years.
    Mankind has worked six prophetic days (1000 years by man’s reckoning) since Adam, and this will be the one “1000” year day of rest (sabbath).
    YHWH set this universe up on six days of work (Gen_1:1-31), one day of rest (Gen_2:1-3).
    The land was set to work six years (Exo_23:10) and one year of rest (Exo_23:11).
    Yeshua hung on the cross six hours (Mar_15:25, Mar_15:33-37) to complete his work.
    I believe there is ample Scriptural evidence that the Millennial reign will be a literal 1000 year of rest to conform to this pattern that YHWH set up.

    The Scriptures don’t tell us how many ages may be in The World to Come,”
    but the good news is that YHWH knows and has already made His arrangements for that, so we have absolutely nothing to worry about.
    The first age alone is dealt with in Scripture–the Millennial age.

  4. Bro. Dave says:


    Once more, please consider listening to Bro. Lee Anthony\\\’s podcast:
    PWLA: Ep. Memorial, Vs. Passover, study on

    REMINDER: SPECIAL – on April 2, our group will study Bro. Lee\\\’s podcast about the importance of the Passover Feast, focusing on its history (Exo_12:11-51) and the deep meaning of Jesus\\\’ fulfillment (1Co_5:7; Heb_11:28).

    Tonight we conducted study group business, and concluded with testimony and fellowship.

    Resume Rev 20:4, starting with \\\”With Christ\\\”.

  5. Bro. Dave says:


    Again, please consider listening to Bro. Lee Anthony\’s podcast:

    PWLA: Ep. Memorial, Vs. Passover, study on

    REMINDER: SPECIAL – on April 2, our group will study Bro. Lee\’s podcast about the importance of the Passover Feast, focusing on its history (Exo_12:11-51) and the deep meaning of Jesus\’ fulfillment (1Co_5:7; Heb_11:28).

    Review \”beheaded\” G3990
    These are \”slain\” G4969

    Historically, the practice of beheading non-believers goes all the way back to Mohammed himself and has extended down through the ages.

    We then resumed our study of Revelation 20:4, beginning with the last phrase of Rev 20:4:
    \”and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.\”

    And they — The Church, the Body of Christ.
    The souls of them that were beheaded?
    Does the number 144,000 (Rev_7:1-8; Rev_14:1-5) even figure into this? If so, why is the number not mentioned here?
    Is there anything in Bible that says the 144,000 are the ones who REIGN with Jesus?
    What about Rev_20:9-14?
    While the Bible declares that the 144,000 are the Bride of Christ, but does it show her ruling with Christ?
    The Apostles were promised 12 thrones to rule over the 12 Tribes of Israel, which from where the 144,000 are selected.

    And reigned G936 G935 G939 — The rulership of earth is handed over to Christ Head and Body.
    \”To him that overcometh will I give to sit with me in my throne.\” (Rev_3:21)
    \”If we suffer with him, we shall also reign with him.\” (2Ti_2:12)
    Those selected by YHWH, will reign with Christ (Dan_7:27 [LEESOR]; 1Co_6:2; 2Ti_2:12; Rev_5:10), during the 1000 year kingdom.

    Part of \”reigning\” includes additional positions of responsibility as well.
    Jesus is King, and Apostles are on 12 thrones, but Kings have a number of different positions in their courts – – example, typically High Priest and Under Priests.


    Resume Rev 20:4, starting with \”With Christ\”.

  6. Bro. Dave says:

    Once again, Bro. Lee Anthony has produce a wonderful podcast, praticularly topical for this time of year:
    PWLA: Ep. Memorial, Vs. Passover, study, found on

  7. Bro. Dave says:


    We discussed our preparation for the Memorial Observance which will be on April 7, 2020, at 7 pm Central. 8 pm Eastern, 6 pm Mountain, 5 pm Pacific Standard Time
    SPECIAL – on April 2, our group will study Bro. Lee\’s podcast about the importance of the Passover Feast, focusing on its history (Exo 12:11-51) and the deep meaning of Jesus\’ fulfillment (1Co 5:7; Heb 11:28).

    The remainder of our time was devoted to testimony and fellowship.


    Resume with the last phrase of Rev_20:4 :
    “and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

  8. Bro. Dave says:

    SPECIAL – on April 2, our group will study Bro. Lee\’s podcast about the importance of the Passover Feast, focusing on its history (Exo 12:11-51) and the deep meaning of Jesus\’ fulfillment (1Co 5:7; Heb 11:28).

  9. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we agreed that evidence suggests that our Memorial observance should be held on Tuesday, April 7, 2020.
    The observation will begin at 8:00 PM ET (7:00 PM CT; 6:00 PM MT; 5:00 PM PT).

    We will not meet Thursday, April 9, but will begin meeting again Thursday, April 16.

    Resume our Revelation study with Rev_20:4,
    beginning with:
    The souls G5590 G5594 — Persons.
    Beheaded G3990 G4141 G4111 — Literally, having their heads chopped off.
    (NOTE: It\’s difficult to understand Revelation allegorically – how does one know what to allegorize versus what to take literally?
    Revelation is best understood literally.)
    All, to be acceptable as members of the Body of Christ, must be will-less, headless. Paul said, \”I die daily.\” (1Co_15:31)
    Others believe the Greek word translated “beheaded” G3990 G4141 G4111 probably became a general term for execution, not necessarily a particular method of punishment,
    Those who had been beheaded may have been believers martyred by the beast (Rev_13:7, Rev_13:15)
    These are tribulation martyrs (Rev_6:9; Rev_18:24; Rev_19:2).
    and may also refer to the victorious throng who sing praises to the Lamb in Rev_15:2-4.
    John could identify with those who lost their lives because of their witness to Jesus and God\’s word, since John was exiled to the island of Patmos for the same reasons (Rev_1:9).
    However, since few of the Lord\’s apostles or saints were literally beheaded, could this be symbolic of deadening one\’s own will and replacing it with YHWH\’s Will?
    Of Jesus and His apostles, the Scriptures mention only James as possibly being literally beheaded (Act_12:2).
    One interpretation is that all must suffer earthly disadvantages, and lay down their lives in the service and defense of YHWH\’s Truth.
    Only those who fall as dead before the Lord (Rev_1:17), that is, who recognize their own nothingness, who totally and completely relinquish their own wills, accepting YHWH\’s Will instead, are ever able to completely receive Jesus\’ message.
    Each \”soul\” G5590 G5594 (individual) must be beheaded for himself, and must be individually united to Christ, the Head of the Church.
    Clearly, today Jesus is not the head of human institutions, which call themselves his bodies.
    Questions for ourselves:
    (1) Have I given up my own self-will?
    (2) If I have, to whom did I give it?
    (3) Am I ignoring all other heads and authorities to be taught by YHWH\’s Word?
    (4) Am I fully content to be thus cut off from others, or am I, so to speak, a double-headed person?
    (5) Or have I parts of three heads–
    some of my own head,
    some of the head of Christ, and
    some of a sectarian man-made head.

    For the witness G3141 G3144 of Jesus — Any one who will \”witness for Jesus\” as the only Head in the Church.
    \”The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy,\” (Rev_19:10) and the more faithful we are to this spirit of Truth the more quickly and completely it will work upon us to effect the change from our own wills to the will of Christ.
    The word G3056 G3004 of God — As the only standard of doctrine.
    The Spirit of Christ works in us in conjunction with the Word of YHWH.
    Had not worshiped G4352 G4314 — \”To him that overcometh G3528 G3529 will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame G3528 G3529 and am set down with my Father in his throne.\” (Rev_3:21)
    An important part of the overcoming expected of us is to get free from the binding and blinding influences of all human systems.
    We fight not with flesh and blood, but with gigantic systems of error, with spiritual wickedness in exalted positions, against falsities honored by time and wealth and earthly learning. (Eph_6:12)
    Do you think it was to give us the opportunity of overcoming, that YHWH has permitted this great Babylon, anti-Christ system, to gain such influence in the world?
    The beast G2342 G2339 — 
    Received his G3588 mark G5480 — Nor the number of his name.
    “His mark” (Rev_13:16). Tribulation martyrs will be executed for refusing the mark of the beast (Rev_13:15). (Rev_19:19-20; Rev_13:1-10)
    Evidence of the importance of studying Revelation as a whole – many of these characters identified earlier in Revelation.

    Discussion of Memorial observation,
    Resume with the last phrase of Rev 20:4:
    \”and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.\”

  10. Bro. Dave says:


    Based on Bro. Lee Anthony’s research, found at:

    I propose our Memorial Observation for 2020, be on April 7.
    We’ll chat about this Thursday and let everyone express their belief.

  11. jacqueline says:

    Bro. Dave thanks for reminding us of the power of prayer. David was a prayer warrior. Psalm 116:
    When Satan attacks us either as a group or one on one, I find it is best not to fight him, just turn him over to God.
    At Calgary, Jesus won the Victory and the blood of Jesus Christ gave us the right to go straight to Jehovah God and fall under the blood.

  12. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight, after overcoming technical challenges (THANK YOU, Sr. Jacqueline, for making it all work), our meeting consisted mostly of testimony and a couple of administrative items:

    1. For anyone struggling with any issue, Psalm 116 is recommended;
    2. Akin to last year, we will observe the Memorial as a group on this, our meeting site.
    Some Christian organizations will observe the Memorial on April 7, yet Jewish Passover is April 8.


    We will decide on which date (April 7 or 8), we will observe the Memorial,
    Resume our Revelation study with Rev_20:4
    beginning with:
    The souls G5590 G5594

  13. jacqueline says:

    Lee Anthony, I also referred Jeff to you about interviewing some persons he suggests. Please post your email for persons wanting to get in touch.

  14. jacqueline says:

    Lee Anthony, so sorry you and your family are sick. My family came from vacation and they have the flu. I am about to call you and tell you something that happened or rather we learned that Dave didn’t put on here. So calling you now.

  15. Lee Anthony says:

    Looks like I missed a good one, I’ll be looking into it. I am quite sick unfortunately, had oldest come home throwing up and been outa school 2days, usually we all get it. So far just me so that’s a plus. Hope will feel good Saturday. Enjoy All😷

  16. Bro. Dave says:


    REVIEW Revelation 20, in preparation for
    Resuming our Revelation study with Rev_20:4

    Revelation 20 is a highly symbolic and controversial chapter in the Bible, not because it is complex, but because it touches on a subject of preconceived bias.

    Revelation 20 is the time when Satan will be taken, bound and put into the bottomless pit (abyss), where his influence will not have any effect on the Tribulation Saints (Luk_19:12-27) who have lived through the seven years of Tribulation.

    Imagine a life where Satan isn\’t around to temp anyone.

    Will the 1000 year millennium will be a time of paradise?

    Will nothing bad will happen?

    No one will enter into the 1000 year millennium unless they are a believer. (Joh_3:3-5)

    Most will live for the entire one thousand years and will procreate and have children.

    Yes, even the curse on the animals is lifted and the wolf will lie down with the lamb and will live in peace with each other. Isa_11:6; Isa_65:25

    But human nature is what it is.

    The children of those Saints will still have to be taught about Jesus, even though He will be with them constantly, many will not accept Him.

    Remember, the heart is very wicked and unfortunately, that is the nature of man. Jer_17:9

    Many of those children will be rebels and with a tremendous population explosion during those one thousand years, there will be probably billions of people at the end much like it is now.

    However, the unbelievers at that point will be as \”the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea\”

    Verses 1-3: The “bottomless pit” G12 is simply the Abyss (Greek abussos), the abode of evil spirits (Rev_9:1-11; Luk_8:31).

    The “key” G2807 shows authority, and the
    “chain” G254 depicts imprisonment and binding.

    Before the millennial kingdom begins, “Satan” (Rev_12:9), is “bound” G1210 in the Abyss.

    The “seal” G4972 indicates God’s authority and guarantee that Satan will not be released until “a thousand years” have passed.

    During the Millennium (Latin for “one thousand years”), Satan will not be able to tempt or “deceive the nations”.

    Any temptation to sin during the Millennium must come from within those people who are born after the kingdom begins.

    It must be assumed that all of Satan’s demons or fallen angels are also imprisoned at that time (Isa_24:21-23).

    Christ will reign on earth without opposition, and His kingdom will be characterized by righteousness, peace, and love (Isa_2:3-4; Isa_11:3-5; Isa_35:1-2; Dan_7:14; Zec_14:9).

    However, after the thousand years, Satan will be released for a short time (Rev_20:7-9).

    In Rev_20:1 \”, the \”angel\” is not Jesus Himself but we believe it is a ministering spirit to whom YHWH has given authority.

    This angel comes from heaven (near the throne).

    We assume from this that YHWH has turned the key to the bottomless pit over to this specific angel and has given him power and authority for this job.

    This \”great chain\” in this angel\’s hand, shows the power YHWH has given him over the devil for this task, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended.

    “Key of the bottomless pit”: The place where demons are incarcerated pending their final sentencing to the lake of fire (Rev_9:1; 2Pe_2:4).

    In Rev_20:2, “Laid hold”: We believe this includes not only Satan; but the demons as well.

    Their imprisonment will dramatically alter the world during the kingdom, since their destructive influence in all areas of human thought and life will be removed.

    “Dragon”: Likening Satan to a dragon emphasizes his ferocity, and cruelty.

    Here we see the devil spoken of as the dragon written about is (Rev_12:3).

    We also see him recognized as the serpent since he was the one who deceived Eve in the garden (Gen_3:1-4; 2Co_11:3; 1Ti_2:14).

    The devil will not be here on the earth to harass the Christians until the millennial 1000 year reign of Jesus is over.

    When he bound the devil for the 1000 years, the angel put him in the abyss, not in the burning hell.

    This burning hell was reserved for his final punishment.

    “A thousand years”: This is the first of 6 references to the length of the millennial kingdom (Rev_20:3-7).

    There are 3 main views of the duration and nature of this period:

    (1) Premillennialism sees this as a literal 1000 year period during which Jesus Christ, in fulfillment of numerous prophecies (e.g., 2Sa_7:12-16; Psa_2:1-12; Isa_11:6-12; Isa_24:23; Hos_3:4-5; Joe_3:9-21; Amo_9:8-15; Mic_4:1-8; Zep_3:14-20; Zec_14:1-11; Mat_24:29-31, Mat_24:36-44), reigns on the earth. Using the same general principles of interpretation for both prophetic and non-prophetic passages leads most naturally to Premillennialism. Another strong argument supporting this view is that so many biblical prophecies have already been literally fulfilled, suggesting that future prophecies will likewise be fulfilled literally.

    (2) Postmillennialism understands the reference to a 1000 year period as only symbolic of a golden age of righteousness and spiritual prosperity. It will be ushered in by the spread of the gospel during the present church age and brought to completion when Christ returns. According to this view, references to Christ’s reign on earth primarily describe His spiritual reign in the hearts of believers in the church.

    (3) Amillennialism understands the 1000 years to be merely symbolic of a long period of time. This view interprets Old Testament prophecies of a Millennium as being fulfilled spiritually now in the church (either on earth or in heaven), or as references to the eternal state. Using the same literal, historical, grammatical principle of interpretation so as to determine the normal sense of language, one is left with the inescapable conclusion that Christ will return and reign in a real kingdom on earth for 1000 years. There is nothing in the text to render the conclusion that “a thousand years” is symbolic. Never is Scripture when “year” is used with a number is its meaning not literal (2Pe_3:8).

    In Rev_20:3, “The bottomless pit”: All 7 times that this appears in Revelation, it refers to the place where fallen angels and evil spirits are kept captive, waiting to be sent to the lake of fire, the final hell prepared for them (Mat_25:41).

    “Be loosed a little season”: Satan will be released so YHWH can make a permanent end of sin before establishing the new heaven and earth.

    All who survive the Tribulation and enter the kingdom will be believers.

    However, despite that and the personal presence and rule of the Lord Jesus Christ, many of their descendants will refuse to believe in Him.

    Satan will then gather those unbelievers for one final, futile rebellion against God.

    It will be quickly and decisively crushed, followed by the Great White Throne Judgment and the establishment of the eternal state.

    At the end of the 1000 years, Satan will once again be released to deceive the nations.

    He will find many unsaved descendants of those who lived through the millennium.

    There will be a very large number as we are told in Rev_20:8 as they will be like the sand of the seashore or a vast uncountable multitude.

    Satan\’s deceptive way of getting those sinners to revolt against YHWH is not revealed, but it will fit into YHWH\’s plan when He destroys those rebels.

    These rebels will come from the four corners of the earth and this is also known as Gog and Magog.

    The first mention of Gog and Magog was in Ezek. Chapters 38 and 39, and is mentioned here Rev_20:8 .

    In Rev_20:4 ,The “thrones” represent the administration and judging of the Messianic Kingdom.

    Those whom John sees come to life are the Tribulation martyrs, who refused to worship the “beast”.

    They will rule the earth “with Christ” for “a thousand years”. Rev_1:7 Rev_5:10 Rev_14:1; Rev_16:18

    Q – Is there Scripture that tells what about people and heaven?
    1Co_15:35-49; 1Co_15:50-58

    Q – What happens AFTER 1Th_4:16-17 ? Where do they go after this? Heaven or Earth?

    Q – What about \”the Rapture\”? Is it Scriptural?
    Mat_24:40-41; Luk_17:36 : 1Th_4:15-17
    Do these \”prove\” a Rapture?

    Christ will rule through three classes of kingdom administrators:

    (1) Old Testament saints (Isa_26:19; Dan_12:2), who will be resurrected at this time;

    (2) The apostles and the church (Mat_19:28-29);

    (3) Tribulation saints (Luk_19:12-27).

    Only believers will enter the Millennium at its beginning (Joh_3:3-5).

    YHWH’s promises to Abraham (Gen_12:2-3), and David (2Sa_7:16), will be fulfilled (Luk_1:31-33; Rom_11:15, Rom_11:29).

    After the Millennium, Christ will deliver the kingdom to God the Father and will then be appointed Ruler forever (1Co_15:24-28).

    The Bible clearly describes different levels of Millennial GOVERNMENT.

  17. Bro. Dave says:


    Exciting news: Bro. Lee has produced more podcasts at:
    They are a genuine blessing.

    What is the Ancient Worthies\’ role in the Kingdom?

    Some have been taught that BEFORE before Armageddon and the great tribulation, and before Jesus\’ return, that the Ancient Worthies would bring the Muslims and Jews together to accept Christ, but before His return.

    The ancient worthies are identified by Paul in Hebrews 11 as those who prior to the death of Jesus demonstrated great faith in YHWH by their obedience. (Heb_11:39-40)
    The reward for faithfulness is YHWH “shall make them princes in all the earth.” (Psa_45:16)
    The Ancient Worthies were the “fathers,” the faithful forefathers of Israel.
    But in the kingdom, these “fathers” will receive life from Christ and the church, thus becoming their “sons.”
    OR, could this refer to Ancient Worthies having a part bringing together the Arab religions, since they respect Moshe, and they will bring them together.
    YHWH ==> Jesus ==> Twelve Apostles on their thrones ==> Ancient Worthies???

    And the reward for the Ancient Worthies\’ faith in ancient times will be their appointment as “princes” of the Millennial Kingdom.

    They will used in Christ’s kingdom as earthly representatives of that kingdom.

    They will be used to convey “the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.” (Isa_2:3)



    But notice that the means of deliverance is the restoration of the “judges” and “counselors as at the beginning.” Who are the judges and counselors and at what beginning?

    Evidently this refers to the ancient worthies (Heb_11:4-38), many of whom were the judges and counselors of Israel prior to Christ.
    These faithful ones will be resurrected to be deliverers of Israel, just as the judges and counselors of earlier times delivered Israel.
    It could be argued that while for mankind resurrection is a process of gradual attainment, a restoration during the Millennial age to the perfection which Adam originally possessed,
    for the ancient worthies, their raising from the dead will be a resurrection to the perfect human nature immediately, with the full physical perfection as Adam before his sin.
    The prophecies concerning the ancient worthies indicate that they will be raised from the dead specifically to deliver Israel. As in ancient times, they will be equipped with the power of God to accomplish this:
    Micah 5:5-6 Leeser
    (5) (5:4) And in this manner shall there be peace: If Asshur should come into our land; and if he should tread in our palaces, then will we raise up against him seven shepherds, and eight anointed men.
    (6) (5:5) And they shall lay waste the land of Asshur with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the gates of its cities: thus will he deliver us from Asshur, if he should come into our land, and if he should tread within our borders.

    Many believe that the seven shepherds are the church in glory; the eight principle men, or princes (leaders) of men, are the Ancient Worthies.
    This designation “princes” is often used for them in other texts.

    In this interpretation, the ancient worthies will be the visible representatives of the kingdom of Christ.

    It\’s an interesting debate whether they will be the earthly representatives of a heavenly kingdom, or, alternatively the visible representatives of an earthly kingdom as typified by the Tabernacle.

    Another issue is the question: if the Ancient Worthies are those mentioned by name in Hebrews, what about all the prophets, such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, etc.?

    While they are not all mentioned by name, Heb_11:32-38 intimates that they are all included in this class.

    The Ancient Worthies will be completely involved in handling the sacrifices of the people.
    The physical position of the prince in Eze_44:3 was on the porch in front of the shut gate.
    This was a position of controlling access to, and communication with, the spiritual rulers.
    It suggests the total involvement of the Ancient Worthies in the kingdom work of bringing the people up to perfection.
    The Ancient Worthies will instruct the people to love their rulers and especially YHWH who arranged the entire blessing. (Eze_45:17).

    So, the Ancient Worthies play a significant role in the affairs of the earthly phase of the kingdom.

    It seems they are raised near the beginning of the kingdom (Luk_13:28-29; Mat_8:11) and act as the visible deliverers of Israel.

    While some (David, Samson), had glaring imperfections in their lives, Isa_1:25-26 seems to indicate how YHWH will attend to them.

    The judges whom YHWH raised up in Israel were deliverers and blessers of the people, and through Isaiah YHWH assures us that he will again raise up judges; and these, it can be interpreted, will be the resurrected Ancient Worthies.

    They oversee the training and restoration of mankind to mankind\’s absolute subjection to Christ and YHWH.

    They are present during the little season after the end of the Millennial age (Rev_20:3) and are part of the reason for the gathering of the enemies in the last act of evil. Rev_20:9

    And when it is over, do they depart the earthly scene to be ushered into the blessings in heaven? Heb_11:13-16

    The question – does the preceding verse apply to ALL the Ancient Worthies
    Since, chronologically, the verse appears after Abel through Abraham being mentioned, but before mentioning the others, does it apply only to Abel through Abraham?

    My own answer is that it doesn\’t matter: YHWH has it all figured out and it\’s not important for me to know.


    Resume our Revelation study with
    beginning with:
    The souls

  18. Bro. Dave says:


    Before beginning these notes, I’d like to invite you to listen to one of our group, Bro. Lee, and his first podcast.
    I highly recommend it:

    Tonight we began by delving into the thought that:
    second death will not HARM (Rev_2:11).
    (Rev 2:11)  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt G91 G94 of the second death.
    Every scripture where the second death is mentioned refers to a class of willful sinners, who, in spite of knowledge and ability, love sin and hate righteousness, except this one; which hastens to assure us that though this class will suffer death aside from the Adamic, and therefore, the second, they will not be injured in consequence.
    Second death is not mentioned until the last part of the Bible is reached, thousands of years after the first death is recorded. Before there was the second death, there was the second sin, the “sin unto death.” (1Jo_5:16)
    Only by intelligent, willful and intentional neglect and refusal of the terms and assistances can they cut themselves off from the Lord and from everlasting life.
    They need not be hoped for, nor prayed for, because it will be impossible to renew them again to repentance.

    How are inanimate objects (death and hell) harmed G91 by being thrown into the lake of fire?
    We do not know the physical properties of everything in the universe.
    The false prophet and beast are already in the lake of fire when Satan is thrown in. Do they have physicality?
    Is second death simply destruction? If so, why use “harmed” G91?
    When YHWH and Jesus “speak”, they usually say what they mean and mean what they say.
    Ex: Mat_5:18



    How do these Scriptures harmonize?
    We determined that they ARE in harmony.
    We believe the Bible does not contradict itself, but where we see contradictions is a lacking in our own understanding or in our cherry-picking a Scripture out of its context.
    OR, it’s possible that there are things that YHWH doesn’t think we need to know right now and we have to have faith.
    The earth remains, but YHWH is going to “rearrange the furniture”.

    He who overcomes by faith (1Jn_5:4-5) need not fear the unending torment of the unbeliever in the lake of fire, the second death (Rev_20:14).
    Some claim this statement to mean that those believers who do not overcome will be harmed by the lake of fire in the sense that when their works are tried by fire (1Co_3:11-15) they will suffer loss of reward.
    However, this seems more harmonious with the rest of the Scripture when it is seen as a figure of speech where the positive idea is stated by negating its opposite.
    Could it be that the second death refers to the experience of eternal death, ie, non-existence, in the lake of fire (Rev_20:14-15)?
    With that in mind, no believer will experience the second death; the overcomer will suffer no loss whatsoever.
    The believer who is faithful to death is promised the crown of life, a wonderful experience of life in the hereafter.

    Thus, there is not only deliverance from the second death, but an experience of life to a rich degree (Joh_10:10).

    What is the Ancient Worthies’ role in the Kingdom?

  19. jacqueline says:

    Last night was indeed a deep study of the actual text of the Bible.
    We decided to put aside our long-held teachings about what the lake of fire word “torment” means.
    We let the text tell us and not what we have been taught.

    My personal conclusion is I have been taught the ramblings of men and not what the Bible actually says about Revelation’s “Great throne Judgement” of chapter 20 and into chapter 22.

    Every time I go to the Bible and follow just what the text of Revelation says I find that out of 100 things only perhaps 2 has proved to be true about anything in the Bible, that I have taught.

    It is sobering to have been taught lies all of your life.

  20. Bro. Dave says:


    We began with the question of the Scriptural use of the term \”torment\” or \”tormenting\”.
    tormenting G928 G931 as in:

    G928 – Thayer
    Thayer Definition:
    1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
    2) to question by applying torture
    3) to torture
    4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
    5) to be harassed, distressed
    5a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
    Part of Speech: verb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G931

    G928 – Strong
    From G931; to torture: – pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.
    Total KJV occurrences: 12

    Note the different translations of the same Greek word in KJV:

    Mat_8:6  – tormented. G928
    Mat_8:29 – to torment G928
    Mat_4:24 – tossed G928
    Mar_5:7  – torment G928
    Luk_8:28 – torment G928
    2Pe_2:8 – vexed G928
    Rev_9:5  – should be tormented G928;
    their torment G929;
    the torment G929
    Rev_11:10 – tormented G928
    Rev_12:2  – pained G928
    Rev_14:10 – shall be tormented G928
    Rev_20:10 – shall be tormented G928

    No definition as \”jailers\” as in WS.
    Scriptures indicate victim of torment had to be conscious.

    Time element has a bearing, e.g.:
    Revelation 20:10 YLT
    (10) and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night–to the ages of the ages.
    \”to the ages of the ages\” – It appears YHWH will deal with Satan and his angels differently than humans, because Satan\’s crimes are so much more heinous than what mankind can do.

    Jewish interpretation of \”lake of fire\”:
    Lake beside Dead Sea called \”Lake of Fire\” because it always has steam coming from it.
    They have a cauldron into which they throw sulfur and metal, to cook off impurities from the metals.

    Sometimes, if metal is corrupted too badly, you have to \’scrap the heap\” – the metal is discarded because impurities are too great.

    \”Torment\” does not mean death, first or second. How is a dead entity tormented?



    Because of your actions toward me (Jesus), you are going to be thrown into the fire prepared for the Devil?
    And that these will \”go away to punishment age-during (YLT)\”?
    Where is YHWH\’s Justice in this?
    Is YHWH telling us that this is not the end of it?
    Is this an indication that humans may be \”tormented\” until they finally give in; finally have all their impurities removed?

    There\’s a lot happening AFTER the Millennial Kingdom.

    The Bible takes us to a certain point beyond which we will not be told until YHWH\’s time is right.

    Rev 22:14-17
    Who are these people who are mentioned AFTER the New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem?

    What is their role in YHWH\’s Plan?

    NOTICE: As an aside, if anyone is so upset by what they read that they want to cast stones at us, we request you select small, smooth, round pea gravel.


    Next meeting we’ll begin by delving into the thought that:
    second death will not HARM (Rev_2:11), and, time permitting, study the role of the Ancient Worthies in the Millennial Kingdom.

  21. jacqueline says:

    A reminder, the Thursday Bereans study group is canceled for tonight in consideration for families gathering together during the holiday season.

  22. Br. Dave says:


    To me, one of the most wonderful parts of our less structured study group is that we are not constrained by nor obligated to a formal structure requiring us to cover \”X\” amount of material each meeting, or, complete a study of a topic within one meeting.

    To wit, tonight, we detoured from our study, right-smack-dab in the middle of Revelation 20:4, to study and discuss some topics-of-opportunity brought up by members of our study.

    Our meeting opened with some study group business, THEN,

    We re-investigated the \”angel\” in Rev_20:1
    the angel
    Compare to Luk_8:28-31
    Heb_1:1-14 – deals with Jesus\’ status (above all the angels).
    Michael the archangel – an entity to himself or Jesus under another name?
    After the resurrection, Jesus is referred to by other names.
    Is Jesus an \”angel\”, as only begotten Son\”?
    Lord G2962
    archangel, G743
    Lord G2962
    Jesus is recorded dealing with Satan in the wilderness without the help of angels.
    Why would Jesus tell Himself to \”rebuke him\”.
    Can there be more than one archangel?
    Heb_1:1-14 – deals with Jesus\’ status.
    Would Jesus need angels to help him fight Satan?

    From Roman Catholic beliefs: prayers to Jesus, will be heard by YHWH and Jesus will take the prayer to YHWH.
    Roman Catholics also pray to Mary and Saints, who will petition the prayers to Jesus, who will then take the prayers to YHWH.

    We will begin with the question of Scriptural use of the term \”tormenting\” G928 G931

  23. Bro. Dave says:


    the angel
    Compare to Luk_8:28-31

    We then began our study of:
    Revelation 20:4

    I saw thrones G2362 — The thrones of the present dominion of earth being \”overturned, (ruined, twisted – depending on translation)\” and the dominion transferred to Christ \”whose right it is.\” (Eze_21:27)
    On David\’s throne in Jerusalem?
    Only reference to twelve thrones.
    Is Paul sitting on the twelfth throne?

    And they sat upon them — The Great Company will stand before the throne, with palm branches in their hands, instead of sitting in the throne, wearing crowns. (Rev_7:9-17)

    And judgment G2917 G2919 — Rotherham–\”sentence of judgment\”.
    The Greek word rendered judgment G2917 here is rendered \”condemnation\” in Luk_23:40; Jas_3:1; Jud_1:4.


    Unto them — Christ Head and Body, in the time of the blessing of the world.
    Could this be judgement of angels (1Co_6:2-3)?
    Moses, was a judge in his day.
    Judges H8199 of Israel?
    Ancient Worthies?


    DISCUSSION of following topics:
    the angel
    Compared to

    tormenting as in Luk_8:28
    second death will not HARM(Rev_2:11)
    Ancient Worthies role in Kingdom

    Pick up in Rev_20:4
    beginning with:
    The souls

  24. Bro. Dave says:


    Revelation 20:3

    An amplification of Rev_20:2.

    And cast him — The Prince of Light taking from the Prince of darkness (Eph_2:2; Joh_12:31; 1Jn_5:19) the scepter of this world and restraining him and all his evil deceptions for a thousand years.
    Just like JHVH’s Justice required a perfect man to ransom a fallen perfect man, JHVH’s Justice requires a King to displace a usurper reigning king.

    Unless Revelation says exactly what a word means, it is open for interpretation.
    Rev_20:1 refers to an angel, not Jesus.
    We know Jesus is more powerful – Jesus created the angel who became Satan.
    Most time when Rev is talking about Jesus, it specifically mentions Jesus.
    Rev 12:7-17 – War breaking out in Heaven. Michael threw Satan down from Heaven.
    Michael had great power.
    Later, it says Christ given great authority.
    Later a male child being born of woman – was that Christ?
    After Jesus turns everything over to JHVH we have the Great White Throne judgement. (Rev_20:11-15)

    When JHVH’s time for the establishment of Christ’s Kingdom comes, Satan’s kingdom will be brought to ruin even more completely than at the time of the flood.
    Why is he not destroyed at this juncture? Because JHVH has a further purpose to be served in his continued existence.

    The bottomless pit G12 G1 G1037 G899 — 
    The word abyss, representing oblivion.
    Abyss–covered, secret, hidden place.

    Shut him up G2808 — Closed up – Satan will be fully bound, shut up.

    Set a seal G4972 G4973 — Sealed it over him.
    Commonly used even into the 20th Century to make secret, to render secure against intrusion, such as a document with a wax seal.
    Representing divine care that none shall interfere with JHVH’s arrangement, but that it shall all be carried out strictly in accordance with the divine prearrangement.
    Satan “doing time” in prison.
    Prisoners are sentenced by a judge who writes the sentence “under seal”.

    He should deceive G4105 G4106 G4108 —
    Lead astray.
    No longer will darkness be permitted to masquerade as light, and the light slandered as darkness. Joh_1:5; Joh_3:19 
    Satan will be forced to appear “as an angel of light” (2Co_11:14) in order to perpetuate the delusions with which he has so long deceived the whole world–putting light for darkness, and darkness for light.
    The Adversary has used the nominal church as his tool to deceive all mankind–to mix his error with JHVH’s Truth; and bring confusion and misrepresentation into the divine character and plan.
    Only here and there can any be found who “know the joyful sound” (Psa_89:15)–who can distinguish the heavenly message from the deceiving message of Satan.

    The nations G1484 — a race or tribe of people, usually non-Jewish.

    No G3361 more G2089 — 
    When Satan is bound, there will be no more great counterfeit systems of Christianity, no counterfeit of JHVH’s Kingdom, no plausible and misleading presentations of error for Truth. His power to deceive and enslave men being completely stopped by the clear light of Truth (knowledge) growing brighter and brighter (Pro_4:18).

    the thousand years — To accomplish the complete victory over death and the grave will be the very object of the establishment of the Kingdom, and will require a thousand years.
    Agreeing with Peter’s explanation that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years with men, and a thousand years with men as one day with the Lord. (2Pe_3:8)
    This same period is elsewhere called “the day of Christ,” the epoch during which The Christ shall rule earth.

    In that thousand years all evil and every enemy of righteousness shall be destroyed–even death [Adamic] the great enemy. 1Co_15:26
    We know not how many ages may be in “The World to Come,” but the good news is that JHVH knows and has already made His arrangements for that, so we have absolutely nothing to worry about.
    The first alone is dealt with in Scripture–the Millennial age.

    Should be fulfilled G5055 G5056 — Be finished.
    Until the thousand years of Christ’s reign have accomplished their designed work of opening all the blind eyes, and permitting all who will to come back into full fellowship with JHVH.
    This work of restoration apparently occupies all of the thousand years, since it is called “the times (years) of restitution.” (Act_3:21)

    Must G1163 – Of necessity, a requirement

    Be loosed G3089 — 
    For what purpose?
    Because it’s JHVH’s Word that this will happen.
    Satan’s prison sentence is completed he MUST be released.
    By Satan’s own nature, perhaps to tempt, test, try, prove all those – now perfect humanity, just as Adam was perfect – that dwell upon the face of the whole earth.
    The Mediator will step from between JHVH and man, and divine tests will be applied to prove, to demonstrate the heart-faithful.
    During tribulation, some people repented and changed.
    During thousand years, children may have been born. What are they going to do when tempted by Satan?
    What role will pride – the pride of being perfected – take in the choices each human will make?

    Little season G5550 — 
    At the end of the thousand years of Christ’s reign the whole world will be turned over to the Father. 1Co_15:24
    Satan will then have the power to tempt mankind as he tempted mother Eve. Rev_20:7-10
    In the end of the thousand years, when Christ has completed his work of restitution the final test must be applied to each individual for continued existence forever. 1Co_15:25-28


    NEXT Meeting
    Revelation 20:4

  25. jacqueline says:

    Br. Dave, it is just a joy to be able to study Revelation with Christians that are digging into the meat with fresh eyes for ourselves.
    I think I will color this one Father!
    ( referring to a popular

  26. Bro. Dave says:


    We continued our study of Revelation 20 beginning with Rev_20:2.

    Rev_20:2, Rev_20:4 and Rev_20:11, along with Rev_21:1-2, and Rev_21:10-11 seems to show the beginning of the age of judgment, the restraining of blinding errors and misleading systems.

    Does the parable of the ‘strong man” (Mat_12:29) indicate this binding of the Adversary will begin in a sudden manner?
    The one who is going the binding will have to be very, very strong – maybe Jesus – and able to handle Satan quickly.
    Satan is bound at the beginning of the thousand years.

    Does the authority Christ gave to Peter to “bind” and “loose” (Mat_16:19) have any meaning here?

    Does the principle of headship (1Co_11:3) extend to the spirit beings, that is, JHVH is the Head of Christ and Christ is the Head of the Spirit beings (including Satan), so that Christ is the one who has authority over Satan to
    (Luk 4:35-36; Mat_28:18) cast him into the abyss, lock it and seal it over him?
    Jesus has that authority and power.
    But no Biblical evidence that it is Jesus who does this.

    On the dragon G1404 — The dragon of Rev_12:3, Rev_12:9 and the dragon of Rev_20:2 seem to be one and the same.

    That old G744 G746 G756 serpent G3789 — A reference to Eve’s beguilement by the
    serpent H5175 H5172. (Gen_3:1-4)

    The Devil G1228 G1225 G1223 G906 — 
    There is an entity Devil, but here the names “Devil” and “Satan” refer not merely to the person of the Adversary, but to all that system of things of which he is the head. (Rev_12:7-9)

    And Satan G4567 — 

    While this name applies to the entity of the Adversary, it also covers in a general sense all the influences for evil and unrighteousness in the world.

    In other words, that adverse influence, putting darkness for light, and light for darkness (Isa_5:20). That influence will be completely bound as the light of truth displaces the darkness.

    Bound G1210 him — Satan’s every deceptive and misleading influence will be restrained–so that evil shall no longer appear to men to be good, nor good appear undesirable, evil.

    The world will go from a “roaring lion” (1Pe_5:8)
    “No lion shall be there.” (Isa_35:9)

    It’s like a prison sentence that Satan must serve.
    Completely unable to do anything at all for this time.
    Even less ability than a prisoner in solitary confinement.

    A thousand years — the great thousand-year day of Messiah’s Kingdom – when those whom Satan now blinds with error, doctrines, superstitions, etc., will be freed from these, and have their hearts and minds opened to JHVH’s Truth.

    For the same thousand years the work of restitution G605 G600 G575 G2525 will progress (Act_3:21).

    Revelation 20:3

  27. Bro. Dave says:


    We began our study with a review of the pronunciation of the Names of the Creator and Redeemer.

    Mention was made of a recent discovery in Jerusalem where the word “Jerusalem” was shown to be pronounced as “Yeh-ru-sa-lem”.

    We then studied the Scriptural references to the expression “Great Day” and its synonyms – timing, meanings, etc.

    “The Day of the Lord” is used in both the Hebrew Bible (יֹום יְהוָה) and the New Testament (ἡμέρα κυρίου), as in “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great H1419  G3173 and the
    terrible H3372 G2016  day H3117 G2250 of the LORD come” (Joe_2:31, cited in Act_2:20).

    As Christians, we should not be in fear or dread that day.
    Nothing Jesus does will cause us harm.
    Once that day starts, it is a day of deliverance.

    GREAT G3173 -“Sore afraid” – does this refer to being afraid like of leprous sores or skin wounds.

    In the Hebrew Bible, the meaning of the phrases refers to temporal events such as the invasion of a foreign army, the capture of a city and the suffering that befalls the inhabitants. Many of these appear in the second chapter of Isaiah.

    In the New Testament, the “day of the Lord” may also refer to the writer’s own times, or it may refer to predicted events in a later age of earth’s history including the final judgment and the World to Come. The expression may also have an extended meaning in referring to both the first and second comings of Jesus Christ.

    I was able to find 86 verses (OT & NT) that have something to do with a GREAT and/or TERRIBLE,
    Day of the Lord.

    I have grouped several of these by events, prophecies, commands, parables, etc., because grouping by Book-Chapter-Verse made their connections unintelligible to me.

    There are a few repetitions, since interpretation can create multiple possibilities for a verse.












































































































    NEXT –
    We began our study of Rev_20:1 thru the end of the Bible, by reading Rev_20:1-10.

    In the previous portion of Revelation, three great enemies of the saints of JHVH had been introduced:
    1. the dragon or satan, (Rev_12:3-4; Rev_12:9)
    2. the beast, (Rev_13:1-2) and
    3. the false prophet. (Rev_16:13-14)

    Of the three great enemies only two – the beast and the false prophet – are destroyed in Rev_19:20.
    The destruction of satan is reserved for Rev_20:10.

    The overthrow of Satan, and not the reign of a thousand years – the Millennial Kingdom, is the main theme of Rev_20:1-10.
    So far is the Millennial Kingdom from being the culminating point of the whole book, that it is not even introduced at the beginning of any new and important section.
    It starts no new series of visions.
    It comes in, in the midst of a section devoted to an entirely different matter: –
    It is impossible within the limits of our Thursday night study to discuss all the different interpretations that have been given to a passage so difficult and being so controversial as Rev_20:1-10.
    What we can do is to study and discuss, for as long as it takes us, what seems to be AN interpretation of John’s vision, together with the Scriptural basis upon which our interpretation rests.


    An angel G32 — Messenger; Some believe this is “the Messenger of the Covenant,” Christ Jesus, and his Body, the Church, since Jesus was given “all authority” (Mat_28:18) the one in whose hand is the power and authority to control evil.
    But not necessarily Jesus’ job.
    Would the King be a jailer?
    He is the only begotten G3439 G3441 G1096 son of JHVH.
    In essence JHVH gave birth to Jesus – of the same substance as JHVH, just like a human baby is of the same substance as his/her parents.
    Not to be confused with being the same entity as JHVH, just like a child is not the same entity as his/her parents.
    Heb_1:1-14 confirms Jesus’ true status as “much more than the angels”.
    Adam was created; angels were created, but Jesus is the same substance as JHVH.
    Michael is a fighter, probably not Jesus (who is the Word of JHVH, the Logos).
    Therefore, the angel who incarcerates satan is not Jesus.
    The key G2807 G2808
    A great chain G254
    Similar to Mat_16:19

    We’ll reconvene our study with:

  28. Bro. Dave says:


    We continued with our study of correct, accurate pronunciations with the Name of the Redeemer.

    “And you shall call his name…” announced an Angel (messenger) G32 G71 of God G2962 ,
    “Jesus” G2424 H3091 H3068 H1961 H3467 . (Mat_1:21)

    Well, no he didn’t.

    He said “Yeshua” (yeh-SHU-ah).

    But then again, Gabriel (Luk_1:26) wasn’t really called Gabriel either – in Hebrew it sounds different: “

    Gav-ree-el G1043 H1403 = Warrior (man) of God.

    How in the world did Yeshua, the actual Hebrew name for our Lord and Messiah, turn into Jesus?

    And does it really matter what we call him?

    We also have the Greek spelling.

    The letter “J” and its sound, “Gee-ayy”, again like with JHVH, was not in existence until after 300 AD.

    The name “Jesus” G2424 H3091 comes from the Greek way of expressing his name: ‘ησοuς, which is pronounced “Yay-soos”.

    While we have an English version of the Hebrew name for Gabriel, we seem to have ended up with an English version of the Greek version of the Hebrew name for our Messiah, that doesn’t even sound close anymore.

    This makes him all the less recognizable to his Jewish brethren.

    Jesus just sounds so… gentile!

    But when Jewish people hear “Yeshua”, sometimes the lights go on.

    The name Yeshua was known and used in Jewish history – you can find men called Yeshua in the roll calls of teams serving in the temple (1Ch_24:11, 2Ch_31:15, Ezr_2:2, Ezr_2:6, Ezr_2:36).

    It’s a version of Joshua, and it means “salvation”.

    For many years among Hebrew-speaking Jewish people, Yeshua has been known as “Yeshu”, which is an acronym for a curse: “yimakh shemo ve zikhro” which means, “May his name and memory be obliterated”.

    So much suffering and persecution has been inflicted upon Jewish people in the name of Yeshua that his very name has become a stumbling block and offense, and now he is often considered one of the enemies of the Jewish people.

    This word “Yeshu” is made of three Hebrew letters – Y-Sh-U (ישו), but it is missing the last letter of his name – the “Ah” sound.

    This last letter is called an “Ayin” (ע), which, interestingly enough, means “eye”.

    It’s almost as if without the “ayin” they cannot see, but when the “ayin” is added, sight comes to the blind.

    But sadly He is often referred to as Yeshu haNotzri, which means “curses on Jesus-the-Christian”.

    In Israel, He is usually seen as gentile, Christian, and ‘other’.

    But, as we know, Jesus wasn’t a Christian – He wasn’t a Christ follower – He was Christ himself!

    The Jewish Messiah!

    Jesus wasn’t a Christian,

    Mary wasn’t a Catholic, and John wasn’t a Baptist:

    Mary G3137 H4813 wasn’t called “Mary”, but “Miriam”.

    They were all Jewish!

    While “Notzri” is the Hebrew word for “Christian”, it actually means one from Nazareth (Natzeret in Hebrew).

    It would be more accurate to say Yeshua me Natzeret – Yeshua from Nazareth.

    It’s close, but worlds away in Israeli perception.

    Christ G5547 is the Greek word for Messiah, so Jesus Christ really means Yeshua the Messiah.

    Most rabbis, scholars and studious Orthodox Jews do not believe in it one iota – the New Testament is simply considered important books which have shaped western civilization.

    And Yeshua was a great prophet – just not as great a Moses.

    Slowly, more and more people understand that Jesus Christ is not a foreign personality of a pagan religion, but Yeshua, salvation, is the Jewish Messiah from Nazareth in Israel, the one prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.
    “And you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins” (Mat_1:21).

    So, you may say, Dave, cut to the chase. What should we call Him then?

    So now to the question, having established his real, Hebrew name, Yeshua – should we cease to call him Jesus?

    It is true that his mother and friends called him Yeshua rather than Jesus, but if you know him as Jesus, does he mind that?

    Is it incorrect to call him Jesus?

    There are some who would argue till they’re blue in the face that it is critical to call Him Yeshua and not Jesus, but Yeshua’s coming coincided with the time JHVH chose to take salvation to the gentiles.

    I believe that it was no accident that His Name was disseminated in the international lingua-franca of the day: Greek.

    It was to go far and wide, to every nation on earth.

    JHVH was now opening up the way to all the peoples of the earth to come to Him.

    I believe, like JHVH’s Name, if we relate to Him by His Name, Jesus, then we should NOT let it be a burden to us to change to Yeshua if we don’t feel the need to.

    Notice that in Joh_10:27
    He does not say that His sheep know His Name, but His voice, and again on the road to Emmaus in Luk_24:13-35.

    His Name has gone out to the nations in various versions of the Greek “Yay-soos”, but now, back in His birth-place, Israel, there are report of people beginning to discover Yeshua as their Jewish Messiah (Zec_12:10, Joh_19:37, Rev_1:7).

    Just as Joseph (who, BTW, was actually called, Yo-safe” H3130) was unrecognizable to his brothers dressed in foreign Egyptian garb and speaking a strange language when they came for help (Gen_42:6-7), Yeshua has been out among the gentiles, bringing salvation, and now appears to be shrouded in gentile terms and culture.

    It has become hard for His Jewish brothers and sisters to recognize Him as one of the tribe.

    Let’s remember what happened to Joseph and his brothers in Gen_45:1-5:
    “…Joseph made himself known to his brothers. And he wept aloud, so that the Egyptians heard it, and the household of Pharaoh heard it. And Joseph said to his brothers, “I am Joseph! Is my father still alive?” But his brothers could not answer him, for they were dismayed at his presence. So Joseph said to his brothers, “Come near to me, please.” And they came near. And he said, “I am your brother, Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt. And now do not be distressed or angry with yourselves because you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life.”

    Many interpret Joseph as a foreshadowing of the Messiah – sold for 20 silver coins as Yeshua was betrayed for 30, suffering at the hands of, and on behalf of, His brothers, and yet procuring salvation both for His family and a whole lot of other gentiles besides.

    We know that there will be a time when this revelation will come to the Jewish people en-masse too, as God promises in Zec_12:10;
    “I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn”.

    This has not yet happened, but when it does, there will be a lot of weeping both in horror (what have we done?) but also joy, as there was with Joseph and his brothers.

    Jews will embrace their Jewish brother, Yeshua, the promised Messiah.

    And the joy of reconciliation and family reunion will be mutual, for Yeshua has profited all those years of rejection for the benefit and salvation of the whole world.

    “I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved… they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!” (Rom_11:25-33)

    Our Conclusion – Whether we call our Redeemer Jesus or Yeshua, as long as we do so with reverence, respect and with total and complete heartfelt thankfulness for His ransom sacrifice, we are most likely not offending either our Creator nor our Redeemer.

    Of course, that’s just our conclusion.
    We could be wrong. 😉


    We will study of the Scriptural references to the expression “Great Day” and its synonyms – timing, meanings, etc.

    AND, time permitting

    We will begin our study of Rev_20:1 thru the end of the Bible.


  29. jacqueline says:

    Br Dave just in case you didn’t get my email a few minutes ago. A family emergency has caused Henry and I not to be on tonight. Thank you

  30. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we began with the question:

    Rev_6:10 – How do those who have been slain and are under the altar “cry out with a loud voice”?
    (See Gen_4:10)

    An Answer:
    A vision, a symbolic picture, of JHVH’s Justice, long deferred, crying for vengeance.
    Isa_64:4 (Isa_64:1-4)
    We cannot see what JHVH is going to do.
    We must trust JHVH’s Plan – knowing that He works for those waiting for Him.

    What about Ecc_9:5?
    Not a contradiction, because Rev 6:10 is a vision, crying out is an idiom.


    What is the correct, accurate pronunciation of the Name of Creator?

    I am going to begin with My Conclusion.

    We could invest several meetings studying and discussing to explain why, since the 2nd century, BCE, the actual spoken Name of the Creator has been lost to mankind, along with all the fits and starts and efforts that have been made to recover what, I am convinced, is now extinct.

    Moses was told His Name, but it is lost to us now.

    So, this is where my research is right now.

    …that my name H8034 may be declared throughout all the earth. (Exo_9:16)

    Throughout the Bible we are commanded to “declare the name” of God to all people.

    As an example, in the KJV:

    But what does this REALLY mean?

    Does it mean that we go around telling everyone that His Name is “Yahweh or Jehovah?”

    If this is true, it would seem that the pronunciation of the Name is very important.

    Was “Jehovah” simply used to distinguish the Creator from all the false gods of the people?

    However, as a result of hours of prayerful study, I have come to the conclusion that there is no possible way to reconstruct the original pronunciation of the Creator’s Name, so how are we to declare His Name?

    It is because of verses like Exo_9:16 (name H8034), and Mat_6:9 (name G3686), and the standard interpretation of these verses, many organizations and students have placed a strong emphasis on attempts to uncover the original pronunciation of the Name.

    As examples of how humans have messed this up completely:

    Most Bible Dictionaries, today, say the Sacred Name (or the “Tetragrammaton”) should be pronounced “YAHWEH,” with a “W” sound at the end of the name or title.

    However, the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia declares unequivocally of this assumed pronunciation of the ancient name or title of God “YAHVEH.

    The Word. Yahveh is the most probable transliteration of the ancient Hebrew name of God.

    It is frequently, especially among GERMAN scholars, written Jahweh, Jahveh, Jahve or Yahweh;


    The historian, Josephus, wrote about the divine name having 4 vowels, see
    In Wars of the Jews, Book V, in chapter 5, verse 7, Josephus states, “A mitre also of fine linen encompassed his [the high priest’s] head, which was tied by a blue ribbon, about which there was another golden crown, in which was engraven the sacred name [of God]: it consists of four vowels.”

    The name, “Jehovah”, was a term invented, or at least first used, by the Spanish friar Raymundus Martini, the Latin form of the Spanish name Ramon Marti, who is commonly known in English as Raymond Martin.

    Actually, he used the spelling “YOHOUA”

    The work which he published in 1270’s was entitled ‘Pugio Fidei’.

    Soon after, in 1303, Porchetus de Salvaticis completed a work called Victoria Porcheti adversus impios Hebraeos (Porchutus’ Victory Against the Ungodly Hebrews).

    In this he, too, mentioned God’s Name — spelling it variously IOHOUAH, IOHOUA and IHOUAH.

    The Name, ‘Jehovah”, first appeared in an English Bible in 1530, when William Tyndale published a translation of the first five books of the Bible.

    In this he included the Name of God, usually spelled IEHOUAH, in several verses, and in a note to this edition he wrote: “IEHOVAH is God’s Name…Moreover as oft as thou seeist LORD in great letters (except there be any error in the printing) it is in Hebrew IEHOVAH.”

    The sound “J” was not used in the Creator’s name until the 3rd centru

    But I have come to the conclusion that there is another interpretation of this and similar verses that will shed some light on what it means “to declare God’s Name.”

    In today’s culture a name is nothing more than an identifier, usually chosen by our parents because they like the sound of the name or it is the name of a favorite relative or ancestor.

    For example, my son, Zachary, was named for his great, great, great grandfather, Zachariah.

    My parents named me “David” because of its meaning, “beloved”.

    This is not true of the ancient cultures, such as the Hebrews, where a name was a representation of who the individual was, based on his character and function. [For instance, the Hebrew name Adam H121 H120 means “man” and is the “name” of the first “man,” Adam.]

    The word “name H8034” is the usual translation for the Hebrew word שם (shem).

    Though the word shem has the meaning of a “name,” the Hebraic meaning of the word goes far beyond our simple Western understanding of a “name.”

    Depending on the translation, this Hebrew word is also translated as: fame, famous, honor, renown or report.

    Obviously, this Hebrew word has a broader meaning in the ancient Hebrew language.

    The Hebrew word שם (shem) can also mean “character” and when this interpretation of the word is used instead of “name,” I discovered new insights – for me – in the Scriptures.

    In Num_6:24-26 we find the AaronicBlessing:
    “The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.”

    The very next verse (Num_6:27) states:
    “And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.”

    How are they (the priests) supposed to put “his name” on the people?

    If we replace the word “name” with “character,” we find that the priests are to place the “character” of God, which can be found in the Aaronic Blessing, on the people, meaning that the people will take on the characteristics of God and it is this character that we are to “declare” to all people.

    …that my character may be declared throughout all the earth. (Exo_9:16)

    With this understanding of the Hebrew word shem we can read and interpret many passages differently.

    The following is the KJV translation of Gen_3:20:
    And Adam called his wife’s name Eve H2332; because she was the mother of all living.

    But if we replace the word “name” with the word “character” and translate Eve’s name instead of transliterating it, we have the following translation:
    And Adam called his wife’s character “lifegiver”; because she was the mother of all living.

    This can also be done with God’s Name, which in Hebrew is יהוה (YHWH – the ever-popular Tetragrammaton), which in Hebrew is usually translated “I AM.”

    And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD H3068 H1961 God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. (Exodus 3:15, KJV)

    This can be interpreted as;
    And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, “I AM”, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my character for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. (Exo_3:15, KJV)

    A problem with the name, “Jehovah”, is that so many people and organizations have represented that name, at best, casually, or, at worst, shamefully, or even in vain H7723 (Exo_20:7).

    On the other hand, it is almost universally recognizable as the JudeoChristian name of the Creator.

    So, for me, I am content believing that no matter what we call the Creator – God, Lord, (Heavenly) Father, Yahweh, Jehovah, Yehovah, Yah, Jah, Adomai or Elohom – we will not know His absolutely-literally-correct Name, at least in this time.

    But as long as we reverently, respectfully, thankfully and humbly invoke His Name the best way we can, AND, as long as we proclaim and witness to His Character as put forth in His Word, AND, as long as we remain as obedient as we can, then I believe we are fulfilling our commitment to Him as well as possible for members of Adam’s spawn.


    What is the correct, accurate pronumciation of the Name of Redeemer?

    Also, time permitting:
    Study the expression “Great Day” and its synomyms – timing, meanings, etc.

    Rev_20:1 thru End of Bible


  31. jacqueline says:

    Lee Anthony so that is 5 votes to cancel. That’s a majority.
    So Saturday is the next conference call in.
    I received some votes by email and phone.

  32. Lee Anthony says:

    A break is fine for me this week

  33. jacqueline says:

    Brothers, let’s take a vote on whether we will cancel the “Small Class Bible study for Thursday 10/10/2019.
    Blessings are flowing for us. two families will have children and grandchildren visiting.
    For some, it is a fall break from school.
    That takes Dave, Henry and Me away, guests are arriving from out of town in the evening hours for all.
    If some say open it up and let us talk we will do that but no formalized study is planned.

    Let us know your vote, please. I have sent out emails to some also.

    Saturday night is still on.

  34. Bro. Dave says:



    Question –
    Rev 6:10 – How do those who have been slain and are under the altar “cry out with a loud voice”?
    Gen 4:10
    Deferred until next meeting.


    Tonight we concluded our overview study of Revelation 6 by focusing on verses 12-17.

    Revelation 6:12-13

    When the sixth seal was opened, there was a great earthquake G4578 G4579.

    A great earthquake also occurs in Rev_11:13; Rev_16:18.

    The effects on the sun, moon, and stars are worded similarly to Mat_24:29, placing these events in proximity to the coming of the Son of Man (Mat_24:30).

    Late figs G3653 appeared in the winter, the off-season, and were easily blown off the tree.




    QUESTION – Is this all symbolic, invisible signs or physical events?
    NOTE: when Christ was crucified, physically, the sun went dark in the middle of the day (Mat_27:45).

    Revelation 6:14

    The description of the sky … rolled up G1507 could be related to the effects on the sun, moon, and stars (Rev_6:12-13; Isa_34:2-4)

    It may also be describing the scene of the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven (Mat_24:30).

    The moving of every G3956 mountain and island would cause seismic damage in excess of any recorded earthquake.

    Example: Krakatoa, or, if this is symbolic, all mankind’s organizations, governments, etc. Either way, terrible destruction.

    These descriptions of great changes may be emblems that declare the end of this system of things and the beginning of the day of judgment.

    Revelation 6:15-17

    Wrath G3709 G3713, in verse 17, means “anger.”
    Thayer Definition:
    1) anger, the natural disposition, temper, character
    2) movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but especially anger
    3) anger, wrath, indignation
    4) anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself
    4a) of punishments inflicted by magistrates
    Part of Speech: noun feminine
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3713

    JHVH’s wrath is presently revealed against unbelievers by letting them go their way and face the consequences of their behavior (Rom_1:18-32).

    However, the great G3173 day G2250 of His wrath (Rom_2:5) is still to come.

    Has come G2064 may mean “has taken place” or “has begun.”

    Who is able G1410 to stand G2476 is answered in the surrounding context.

    Opposers to JHVH’s Will, no matter how strong, cannot stand.

    Those protected by JHVH are enabled to stand, whether on earth (Rev_7:1-8) or in JHVH’s presence in heaven (Rev_7:9-17).

    The terror of this end will seize on everyone – all sorts of men.

    Nothing of man’s organizations, governments or accomplishments – grandeur, riches, valor, nor strength – can support men at that time.

    Opposers of JHVH will wish to be seen no more; to have no longer any being.

    The disobedient and unbelievers are described as hiding themselves in their dens and secret caves, and vainly seeking to escape ruin.

    Christ’s wrath G3709 G3713 exceeds dreadful; for if the Redeemer himself, who appeases the wrath of JHVH be our enemy, where shall we find a friend to plead for us?

    As men have had their day of opportunity, and their seasons of grace, so JHVH has his day of righteous wrath.

    See also,




















    NEXT Meeting

    First, discuss Question –
    Rev_6:10 – How do those who have been slain and are under the altar “cry out with a loud voice”?
    (See Gen_4:10)

    Name of Creator, and Name of Redeemer

    After that,
    Study the expression “Great Day” and its synonyms – timing, meanings, etc.

    Rev_20:1 thru End of Bible

  35. jacqueline says:

    Br. Dave, I had been looking for this scripture where Rev.5:10 says they will rule on earth. “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign[fn] on the earth.”vs 6:Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.”

    and there are many scriptures that show there will be a fourth Temple during the thousand years built by Messiah and He shall sit on the throne of David which will be in actual Jerusalem during His reign on earth. As a witness, we often wondered if we would see our “anointed” relatives and friends so as to know if they made it. Jesus 1,00 yrs are on earth the way I see it from many scriptures.
    Most Relevant Verses
    2 Samuel 7:12-13
    “When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom. “He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

    2 Samuel 22:51,1 Chronicles 17:10-14,Matthew 1:1,Luke 1:32-33
    “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most-High, and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”

    Isaiah 2:1-4,Isaiah 9:6-7,Isaiah 11:1-10,Isaiah 16:5,Isaiah 24:23

    Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, For the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, And His glory will be before His elders.

    Isaiah 32:1-2,Isaiah 40:1-11,Isaiah 42:3-4,Isaiah 52:7-15,Jeremiah 23:5-6,Jeremiah 33:17-26,Ezekiel 36:1-12,Daniel 2:44,Daniel 7:27,Amos 9:11-12,Micah 4:1-5,Micah 5:2-5,Zephaniah 3:14-20,Zechariah 9:9,Zechariah 14:1-21

  36. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we reviewed an interpretation of the first 8 verses of Revelation 6; then, continued our study of Revelation 6, beginning with verse 9.


    The three last seals relate to the invisible, just as the first four relate to the visible world;
    the fifth, to the martyrs who have died as believers;
    the sixth, to those who have died, or who shall be found at Christ’s coming, unbelievers, namely, “the kings … great men … bondman … freeman”;
    the seventh, to the silence in heaven.
    The scene changes from earth to heaven.
    So, interpretations which make these three last seals consecutive to the first four seals, may be very doubtful.


    By VERSE

    Revelation 6:9

    The fifth seal focuses on martyrs slain for standing for the word of God and Christ\’s testimony, the very reasons John was exiled to Patmos (Rev_1:9).

    I saw — in spirit. For souls are not naturally visible.

    under the altar — These martyrs\’ souls are under the altar because sacrificial blood was poured beside the base of the altar in the temple (Exo_29:12).
    As the blood of sacrificial victims slain on the altar was poured at the bottom of the altar, (Lev_4:7)
    so the souls of those sacrificed for Christ’s testimony are symbolically represented as under the altar, in heaven;
    for the life or animal soul is in the blood (Lev_17:11; Lev_17:14; Deu_12:23),
    and blood is often represented as crying for vengeance (Gen_4:10).

    Might the altar in heaven be anti-typical to the altar of sacrifice and then be Christ crucified?
    As it is the altar that sanctifies the gift, so it is Christ alone who makes our obedience, and even our sacrifice of life for the truth, acceptable to JHVH.
    The sacrificial altar was not in the sanctuary, but outside; so Christ’s literal sacrifice and the figurative sacrifice of the martyrs took place, not in the heavenly sanctuary, but outside, here on earth.
    The only altar in heaven is that anti-typical to the temple altar of incense. (Rev_8:1-4)
    The blood of the martyrs cries from the earth under Christ’s cross, whereon they may be considered virtually to have been sacrificed; their souls cry from under the altar of incense, which is Christ in heaven, by whom alone the incense of praise is accepted before God.
    They are under Christ, in His immediate presence, shut up unto Him in joyful eager expectancy until He shall come to raise the sleeping dead.

    Compare the language of 2 Maccabees 7:36 as indicating Jewish opinion on the subject.

    2 Maccabees 7:36 KJVA
    (36) For our brethren, who now have suffered a short pain, are dead under God\’s covenant of everlasting life: but thou, through the judgment of God, shalt receive just punishment for thy pride.

    Our brethren who have now suffered a short pain are dead under (G5270) God’s covenant of everlasting life.
    They were martyred for testimony which they held — that is, which they bore G2192 , as committed to them to bear.
    Compare Rev_12:17, “Have (same Greek G2192 as here) the testimony of Jesus.”

    Revelation 6:10

    The martyrs are impatient for the Lord to avenge their blood and to judge all those who are not among His redeemed (Rev_5:9-10).
    This vengeance will not be carried out completely until Rev_19:2.

    A SIDE NOTE – A careful read of Rev_5:10 reveals:
    Revelation 5:10 KJV
    (10)  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on(G1909) the earth.
    Thayer Definition:
    1) upon, on, at, by, before
    2) of position, on, at, by, over, against
    3) to, over, on, at, across, against
    Part of Speech: preposition
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a root
    NOTE: One interpretation of this lemds credence to the logic:
    1. Jesus is the Head;
    2. These kings and priests are the Body;
    3. Therefore, Christ Head and Body\’s reign will be earthly, based in Jerusalem.

    Revelation 6:11

    Each martyr is given the white robe of the overcomer (Rev_3:5) and told to rest … until God\’s appointed time.
    “Vengeance is mine,” says JHVH (Deu_32:35; Rom_12:19); it will come in His perfect timing.


    Upon opening the fifth seal, John saw the souls of the martyrs under the altar; at the foot of the altar in heaven, at the feet of Christ.

    Persecutors could kill only the body; after that there is no more they can do; the soul lives (Luk_12:4).

    JHVH has provided a good place in the better world, for those who are faithful unto death (Rev_2:10).

    It is not their own death, but the application of the blood of Christ\’s ransom sacrifice, that gives them entrance into heaven.

    The cause in which they suffered, was for the Word of JHVH; the best any person can lay down his/her life for; faith in JHVH\’s word, and the unshakable witness to that faith.

    They commit their cause to Him to whom vengeance belongs. (Rom_12:19)

    Jesus is the comforter of His afflicted servants, and precious is their blood in His sight. (Psa_72:12-14)

    As the measure of the sin of persecutors is filling up, so is the number of the persecuted, martyred servants of Christ.
    When this is fulfilled, God will send tribulation to those who trouble them, and unbroken happiness and rest to those that are troubled. (2Th_1:3-7)

    NEXT Meeting
    Revelation 6:12-17

    FUTURE Meetings
    What are the most accurate possible spoken names of the Creator and of the Redeemer?
    Rev_20:1 thru End of Bible

  37. Lee Anthony says:

    Yes, this is an interesting topic. Ive heard a couple views on it. The Messianic I am sure had a knowledge of the bible that the modern viewpoint is lacking. I am a believer in taking the bible in the context that it was written both from a cultural and spiritual perspective. There are things that were understood by the writers that they would have known their audience at that time would have grasped that we miss the point on. The KJV bible for example was written in English but many of the words do not mean the same thing and can be confusing to the modern reader in our day. Culture is all too Important. Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, so they get points for that in my book as many christians today know nothing of the Jewish background of the religion they are part of. Its a good study, and quite a lot of food for thought.

  38. Noona says:

    Fascinating discussion Lee. I also was very curious to know what the levels of existence (heavens) are and how God purposed them to operate. I once had a discussion about this with a messianic Jew who not only is a firm believer in the Messiah Jesus, but that many things that occurred with the Jewish people in the bible (and their recorded interactions with God) tell a much more nuanced story about the reflections of heaven than we inherited from Western theology, which is devoid of Jewish cultural/biblical insights.

    My dear messianic friend and I talked about the possibility that the heavens that the angels reside in, may have been a created habitat for them, just as the Earth (and our heaven) is for humanity, and that God’s domain has always existed apart from all created spaces, (since he has always existed) and this may have been the third and possibly highest of heavens.

    Its just speculation of course, but I think that it was interesting that Paul highlighted the fact that he was in the third heavens as though this concept at the time needed no further explanation to the audience that he was delivering it to. So at least I think we can be sure that Paul either knew someone who had been taken into the third heavens, or that he himself was this person and his testimony about the event at the very least confirmed its existence for believers.

  39. Lee Anthony says:

    Nubby Tope,
    Hello, Good to see you on and glad you keep up and read often.
    The idea of third heaven just like many have different interpretations. One view I could offer is that of the different heavens often described, we know we have the sky, which the word in greek can mean, also the stars and planets outside our atmosphere, (space) also called the heavens, then the unseen where Gods throne is thought to be and where man can actually see the spiritual. Note that in Genesis the creation is of the heavens plural.
    Paul is thought to have been speaking of himself here by many and that it was his experience years before with Christ that he was referring too.(Acts 9) In those days this would have been something that was viewed differently than how we do today. I would say that Im inclined to believe it is a place we cannot see with our earthly eyes, and that since the man “heard things a human is not allowed to speak” it is a realm where spirit beings do abide.
    Rev 11:19
    Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple…..

    As far as going to heaven…. The new Jerusalem is said to come out of heaven to the earth in Revelation. There will be those in spiritual bodies who cannot marry as stated by Jesus, however we also know there will be nations on earth who will live as we do now. Where we will be and how we will be depends on timing and also on God. Im sure he has it under control and that it will be quite satisfying for all who are part of it.

  40. Nubby Tope says:

    Hi Jacqueline & Co.

    I\’ve not commented much lately but have been reading your comments and they\’ve given me plenty to think about. Wonderful to think for myself now without WT breathing down my neck!

    This topic of 4 horsemen has always fascinated me since I was a kid so I thought I\’d bung in my tuppence worth! As a former JW like you, I was always taught that the Rider on the white horse was Jesus. But this prophecy about our world before Christ\’s Return is parallel to Matt 24, where Jesus mentioned war, famine, earthquakes etc. and the horsemen pictured war, famine, death on a grand scale probably by natural disasters like earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes (look at the Bahamas) but in Matt the first sign was false christs and messiahs and the first horseman was a Ruler of some kind. Amazing how WT never saw that connection! But they\’re obsessed with their idea of trouble following Christ beginning his rulership and the 1914 thing. So is this false Christ an actual person, organization or what?

    I recall reading an article online about 3 years ago about the word \”pale\” and it was mentioned that the word for pale as used when Revelation was written is the same word for green, so this could picture the rise of Islam as green features on a lot of Islamic countries flags. I\’ve not checked this out I confess but those with more patience than me could check this? And fundamental Islam has slaughtered many people. Just curious I suppose.

    As for first resurrection, what is the third heaven that Paradise is supposed to be? Is this meant to be taken literally? If so, what is first and second heaven? So my dead parents and brother; in heaven or still dead awaiting resurrection? If we really do go to heaven then I might not like it if we can\’t marry! I like being human, warts and all!

    I hope all are well, and keeping an eye on these child abuse trials coming up with all 8 GB members as defendants. I hope they get a taste of their own medicine and get thoroughly grilled by the lawyers so they feel the humiliation and pain and misery these morons put us through with their unscriptural, un-natural, un-ethical shunning policies! And I hope thousands more wake up and smell the coffee, and then leave the GB to and WT to suffer whatever fate gets thrown at them!

  41. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we girded our loins and waded into Rev_6:1-8.

    For context, I recommend studying Rev 5 thru 8, with an interlinear and a concordance dictionary.

    One interpretation:

    All seals opened by Jesus – the only one worthy.
    All four horses seem to be interconnected – hard to separate one from another.
    One seems to lead to the next and again to the next and to the next.

    Mat_24:5 – (Parallel scripture.)
    Lamb = Jesus Christ
    white horse = religious in nature, having something to do with Christianity or false Christ.
    At that time Roman generals rode a white horse (or a chariot pulled by white horses) as symbol of conquest.
    bow = power
    Hos_1:5 = bow equals might (strength)
    Jer_50:41-42 = bow and javelin = strength
    Both symbols of Satan’s might (strength).
    Jesus mentioned false Christ.
    crown = rulership
    conqueror = not early Christians, because they had no power, no crown, not bent on conquest.

    Mat_24:6 – (Parallel scripture.)
    Killing of people in general seems to be in context of war.
    Red horse follows white horse.
    This horse and rider seem to be bent on one thing – people killing each other.
    World has seemed to be forever in conflict with each other in various places throughout history.

    Mat_24:7- (Parallel scripture.)
    Scales may indicate how people will be divided and against each other based on economic class.
    Wealthy vs. poor.
    Uproar by poor having to support rich as rich become richer and poor become poorer.
    Middle class eroded to non-existence.
    “A liter container of wheat for a denarius”, for the time it was written was equivalent to a one days’ basic nutritional requirement for a full days’ wage.
    When food becomes scarce, the poor cannot eat or feed their families.
    The oil and wine are expensive foods that only the rich can afford.
    Oil and wine can be used for healing.

    Mat_24:9-12- (Parallel scripture.)
    Death & Hades (inseparable) – Death kills and Hades receives.
    All who die wait in Hades until resurrection.
    One fourth of earth – does this apply to a particular segment or referring to one-fourth of population of earth?
    Black Plague, polio, influenza are all on the rise today.
    This year’s flu strain is one of the deadliest since 1916.
    One fourth of population will be affected by war, famine and/or wild beasts (attacks by beasts (see reports of sharks, alligators, snakes, etc) are reported to be on the increase).

    Another interpretation:

    Christ, the Lamb, opens the first seal (Rev_6:1-2) and what is heard is:

    the noise G5456 of thunder,G1027 one of the four beasts G2226 saying, G3004 Come G2064

    and observe what appeared:

    A rider on a white G3022 horse G2462.

    Could “he went forth” G1831 on this white horse, be descriptive of a time of peace, or the early progress of the Christian religion;
    its going forth in purity, at the time when Jesus sent His apostles to teach all nations, adding,” Lo! I am with you alway, even to the end of the world” (Mat_28:20)?

    Because the first rider is on a white horse and is conquering G3528, some take it to be Christ (Rev_19:11). If so, His full conquest is considerably delayed (19:11—20:6).

    Other widely held views are that this is the Antichrist, or a spirit of conquest and delusion (Mat_24:3-6).

    The bow G5115 indicates that the rider is a warrior.

    The crown G4735 suggests that he is a ruler.

    In agreement with the Strong’s G3528 and G5115, the bow without the arrow could point to peaceful political conquest founded on military might.

    Is it possible that the emergence of this first rider occurs at the beginning of the seventieth week of Daniel (Dan_9:25-27)?

    If so, then the Divine religion goes out crowned G4735, having the Divine favour resting upon it, armed spiritually against its foes, and destined to be victorious in the end.

    On opening the second seal (Rev_6:3-4), a red horse appeared; with powers that could signify desolating judgments of removing peace G1515 and causing
    killing G4969 one another G240.

    The sword G3162 of war and persecution is a dreadful judgment; it takes away peace from the earth, one of the greatest blessings; and men who should love one another, and help one another, are set upon killing one another.

    Not just killing G4969, but as Strong’s defines it, butchering.

    Historically, if we look at what followed the pure age of early Christianity, once the charity and the bond of peace fostered by the Apostles had departed, so-called Christian leaders, divided among themselves, utilized to the sword, and began a butchery that lasted over a thousand years.

    On opening the third seal (Rev_6:5-6), a black horse appeared.

    Black is a color denoting mourning and woe, darkness and ignorance.

    He that sat on it had a yoke G2218 in his hand.

    Early after their demise attempts were made to put a yoke of superstitious observances on the disciples.

    We know that as Christianity got further from its pure source, it became more and more corrupt with error and man’s traditions.

    During the progress of this black horse, the necessities of life should be at excessive prices, and the more costly things should not be hurt G91.

    A possible interpretation is that the food of accurate knowledge (2Co_10:5) of JHVH and Jesus, which can sustain us in these times; such we are invited to buy, Isa_55:1.

    But when the dark clouds of error, ignorance and superstition, denoted by the black horse, spread over the Christian world, the knowledge and practice of true religion became scarce.

    When a people are no longer thankful for their spiritual food, JHVH might justly deprive them of their spiritual daily bread.

    A famine of bread is a terrible judgment; but the famine of the word is much more terrible.

    As proof, all we have to do is open the history books and read about the Dark Ages and the various Inquisitions.

    Upon opening the fourth seal (Rev_6:7-8), another horse appeared, of a pale greenish G5515 color.

    The rider was Death G2288 G2348, the ultimate enemy of mankind, the king of human terrors.

    The attendants, or followers of this king of terrors,
    hell G86, are empowered:
    over G1909 the fourth part G5067 of the earth G1093, to kill G615 with sword G4501, and with hunger G3042, and with death G2288, and with the beasts G2342 of the earth G1093.

    Notice that this use of the word kill G615 differs from the
    word killing G4969 in Rev_6:4.

    The period of the fourth seal is one of great slaughter and devastation, destroying whatever may tend to make life happy, making ravages on the spiritual lives of men.

    John does not pinpoint the exact times of these four seals, other than Jesus is in Heaven, after completing His Ransom (Rev_5:5-7) – any attempt to say it’s this time or that time is, in my opinion, highly speculative and interpretive.

    Suffice it to say that JHVH gave power to these instruments of His anger; they only go forth when JHVH determines the time is right (Mat_24:36), and those same instruments will go no further than JHVH, Himself, permits.

    And, for yet another interpretation, view:


    We will continue by beginning our study at Revelation 6:9, proceed thru the end of the chapter and take however many meetings as necessary to complete this chapter.

    After completing Rev 6, we will study from Rev 20:1 through to the end of the Bible.

  42. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we studied Rev_19:11-21, what the Scriptures actually explain, as well as how they are interpreted by other organizations.

    Rev_19:11 answers the question asked about the beast in Rev_13:4 : “Who is able to make war with him?”

    Some have problem with cut-off date of great tribulation.

    It can be difficult to understand many of the teachings, because there are not Scriptures directly stating a person that dies during the tribulation will not be resurrected.

    Here as there he comes forth “conquering and to conquer.” Compare the ass-colt on which He rode into Jerusalem (Mat_21:1-7).
    The ass is for peace. His riding on it into Jerusalem is an earnest of His reign in Jerusalem over the earth, as the Prince of peace, after all hostile powers have been overthrown.
    The horse was used for war: and here He is going forth to war with the beast.

    Are the white horses mentioned in Rev 6:1-2 and Rev 19:1 the same horses or different horses?

    Rev 6:2
    Thayer Definition:
    1) to conquer
    1a) to carry off the victory, come off victorious
    1a1) of Christ, victorious over all His foes
    1a2) of Christians, that hold fast their faith even unto death against the power of their foes, and temptations and persecutions
    1a3) when one is arraigned or goes to law, to win the case, maintain one’s cause
    Part of Speech: verb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3529

    Rev 19:17-21
    The final battle.

    Armageddon [G717] (Rev_16:16).
    Thayer Definition:
    Armageddon = “the hill or city of Megiddo”
    1) In Rev_16:16 the scene of a the struggle of good and evil is suggested by that battle plain of Esdraelon, which was famous for two great victories, of Barak over the Canaanites, and of Gideon over the Midianites;
    and for two great disasters, the deaths of Saul and Josiah.
    Hence in Revelation a place of great slaughter, the scene of a terrible retribution upon the wicked.
    The RSV translates the name as Har-Magedon, i.e. the hill (as Ar is the city) of Megiddo.
    Part of Speech: noun proper locative
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of Hebrew origin H2022 and H4023

    The beast (Rev_13:1-10)
    the false prophet (Rev_13:11-17)

    And then, after Rev 19:21:
    Rev 20:1-2
    and later,

    Do any of these Scriptures support the thought that those, other than the beast and the false prophet (who are permanently destroyed), killed during the tribulation and/or at Armageddon will NOT be resurrected into the Millennial Kingdom?

    rev 6:1-6

  43. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we studied the similarities and differences concerning the Biblical use of:

    king [H4428 H4427 G935 G939]

    kingdom [H4467 H4427 G932 G935 G939 ]

    priest [H3548 H3547 G2409 G2413]

    priesthood [H3550 H3547 G2406 G2407 G2409]

    reign [G936 G935]

    royal [G934 G935 G939] priesthood

    holy [G40] priesthood (1Pe_2:5)

    thrones [G2362]

    NOTE the same roots used for king, kingdom, royal and reign;
    priest and priesthood.

    In KJV

    \”king\” appears in 1917 verses

    \’kingdom\” appears in 316 verses

    \”king\” and \”kingdom\” appear in the same verse 40 times

    \”priest\” appears in 478 verses

    \”priesthood\” appears in 15 verses

    \”priest\” and \”priesthood\” appear together in the same verse twice:

    \”king\” and \”priest\” occur in 42 verses
    Gen_14:18 (see also Psa_110:4)

    \”king\” and \”priesthood\” – zero verses

    \”priest\” and \”kingdom\” – one verse

    Jesus – Psa_110:4 
    Apostles rule on 12 thrones [G2362]

    \”a kingdom of priests and a holy nation\”

    saints [G40 G53]
    (see holy [G40] priesthood (1Pe_2:5))

    Where does Bible say the 144,000 \”sit on thrones\”?

    Isa 61:6
    Isa 62:2-3

    Dan 7:27

    Who are the saints?

    Next meeting –
    Rev_19:11-21, what the Scriptures actually explain, as well as how they are interpreted by other organizations.

  44. jacqueline says:

    Bro. Dave, thanks so much for posting so we can review and study for next week. I so enjoyed having Tasha on. She left briefly because her daughter came over. Her daughter is the reason this website was created. Just a teenager wanted to talk to Ask Jacqueline. I had left the fojw site and wasn’t thinking of running another one.
    But Tasha and I decided let’s let the teenagers talk in a secure place about how they are affected, what their feelings are when their parents decide to leave the Jehovah witness organization. It was only going to be one little blog page like I used to have before working on the fojw site.

    Well, it seems our Father and Jesus said, ‘other people got something to say also”, and conference calls to host and they need a hosting site. And so we dug deep and found we had purshase an entire site not just one page on the new DOTLIFE network for physicians and self-help and healing.

    One little teenager made us do all of this. Thank you Tasha’s daughter, we love you and we all have our pages.

    The many videos hosted below even give others a voice. We are thankful and grateful to God, Jesus and his Spirit that we feel every time we meet to think thru our own minds without filtering it thru our old religions.

    I don’t think I would know how to use books and magazines anymore when you learn how to use just the Bible. Verse study, not topical Book study because that is indoctrination.

  45. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we began our study with the question:
    ”At this exact point (immediately after Gen_3:6), what is Adam and Eve’s standing – perfection or imperfection – with JHVH?”

    gen 3:8-11
    Gen_3:8. cool of the day.
    Akkadian terminology has demonstrated that the word translated “day” also has the meaning “storm.”
    This meaning can be seen also for the Hebrew word in Zep_2:2.
    It is often connected to the deity coming in a storm of judgment.
    If this is the correct rendering of the word in this passage, they heard the thunder (the word translated “sound” is often connected to thunder) of the Lord moving about in the garden in the wind of the storm.
    In this case, it is quite understandable why they are hiding.

    We see this in Job 38:1
    סְעָרָה    סַעַר
    sa‛ar    se‛ârâh
    sah\\\’-ar, seh-aw-raw\\\’
    From H5590; a hurricane: – storm (-y), tempest, whirlwind.
    Total KJV occurrences: 24

    Probably before this moment, Adam and Eve had never known FEAR.

    Gen 3:10
    afraid, because … naked — apparently, a confession – the language of sorrow; but it was evasive – no signs of true humility and penitence – each tries to throw the blame on another.

    And, ”how did JHVH directly deal with imperfect Adam & Eve (Gen_3:21), and yet we require a Mediator (1Ti_2:5-6, Heb_9:11-18, Joh_14:6)?”

    Also, we see Moses Exo_33:11
    Some interpret Face to face as Signifying a closeness of fellowship with the Lord rather than really looking into the face of Jehovah.
    We see the Lord\\\’s face with the eye of faith, for we see the Lord Jesus who represents the Father and declares that he who has seen him has seen the Father. (Joh_14:9)
    Other interpretations claim that speaking face to face is an idiom suggesting an honest and open relationship.
    It does not contradict Exo_33:20-23. Num_12:8 uses a different expression with the same meaning, “mouth to mouth.”

    We see that in Gal_3:20 the argument is, the law had angels and Moses (Deu_5:5) as its mediators.

    Next meeting:
    We will examine the similarities and differences concerning the Biblical use of:
    king [G935 G939]

    kingdom [G932 G935]

    priest [G2409 G2413]

    priesthood [H3550 H3547 G2406 G2407]

    and prove that the selection and use of these words were neither accidental, arbitrary nor haphazard.

  46. jacqueline says:

    Lee Anthony,Great points, a way to wipe our minds clear of previously held doctrines that had little research.

  47. Lee Anthony says:

    Words are important and Im confident Dave will bring out the meanings, I count on it so I dont have to do it. 😛 A thought I considered is one of the meanings for reign go’s along with not only reigning as kings as in royalty but reigning as priests as in a position of power and authority. Both fit with the use of word king or kingdom however when I considered exodus and peter I saw it talked about priesthood but in exodus as you mention Jacqueline it being “1st mentioned” it speaks of a “ROYAL PRIESTHOOD” so priests with great authority as given by a King or as in sharing power with king(s). I think peter and Exo. Gives us the understanding needed to properly translate the words in revelation and get the meaning as it is in the oldest manuscripts, the textus receptus as they call it has kings not kingdom which to me dont fit with context and original intent and allows for doctrines like the JW’s have created and taught. Though it really dont matter in the sense of our salvation being affected, but if we teach anyone a specific subject it is good to research it deeply as we can cause those teaching will be judged with more severity. (Jas 3:1)

  48. jacqueline says:

    Lee Anthony, I was just thinking of the Christian prayer Jesus taught us. There is a key to the Bible called “the first mention”. If you can find the first mention of a subject it normally helps you to understand it’s mention in later places.
    Maybe not the first but in addition to not doing repetitious prayers, it mentions thy kingdom come differently in this translation. Giving another aspect. Youngs Literal Translation.

    ” Mat 6:7

    ‘And — praying — ye may not use vain repetitions like the nations, for they think that in their much speaking they shall be heard,

    Box Mat 6:8

    be ye not therefore like to them, for your Father doth know those things that ye have need of before your asking him;

    Mat 6:9

    thus, therefore, pray ye: ‘Our Father who art in the heavens! hallowed be Thy name.

    Mat 6:10

    ‘Thy reign come: Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on the earth.

    hold royal office; rule as king or queen.
    “Queen Elizabeth reigns over the UK”
    synonyms: be king/queen, be monarch, be sovereign, sit on the throne, occupy the throne, wear the crown, wield the scepter, hold sway, rule, govern, be in power More
    the period during which a sovereign rules.
    “the original chapel was built in the reign of Charles I”
    synonyms: rule, sovereignty, monarchy
    “the later years of Henry’s reign”
    Just a thought on different ways to consider the Kingdom.

  49. jacqueline says:

    Lee Anthony, I will look at this with new eyes. Thanks for the info. I had already questioned in my mind about the 144,000. Because of the three descriptions of how many, from Each tribe and the exact number to me meant don’t allegorized this.
    To me Jehovah says what he means and means what he says. Some of the signs can be understood now, because we know about missiles etc and how fire can come out of the heavens but John described what he saw. We see Israel back in Jerusalem but John wrote what he saw not able to understand what the passage of time helps us see and the Holy Spirit and Jesus.
    Plus Jehovah reveals and conceals so now all are looking with current knowledge into Revelation.
    I can’t as of yet see the Church being the 144,000.

    I also noticed that more than the Church is in the first resurrection. It says happy and holy are those in the first resurrection. That can be Patriots and righteous ones before Jesus. Anyone he wants and second death has no power. What a grand spot to be in. 144,000 only never seemed right to me. Will look further also.

  50. Lee Anthony says:

    Comparing manuscripts from the 2 oldest known and most widely accepted and used greek texts we have 2 words kingdom G932 from G935 Kings.
    The difference in the word used changes what the text says and potentially the understanding thereof.
    Consider the original promise to Israel if they Obeyed the covenant in (Exo 19:5-6) They would be a kingdom of priests.
    This fits the thought found in (1 pet 2:7-9) they would be a royal priesthood
    In Rev 1:6, 5:10, it says kingdom of priests and fits the thought as well, however if it says kings and priests it changes what we find elsewhere.
    In Rev 20:6 it says those of the 1st resurrection would be priests of God and of Christ.
    In v.4 it mentions thrones however it seems that those on the thrones are not the same as those mentioned later in the verse who are said to have died in various ways and are part of the 1st resurrection.
    It says John saw thrones and those sitting on them who were given authority to judge, and THEN or ALSO I saw the souls of those beheaded…. and so forth….
    So this seperates those on the thrones from those who are killed who we know are part of 1st resurrection.
    So who is doing the judging?? We know obedient followers are said to judge the world and angels in (1 cor. 6:2-3) Yet the bible only clearly states a number of thrones and those judging essentially as kings or perhaps just judges in Matt 19:28) where Jesus says the 12 apostles will sit on 12 thrones judging 12 tribes of Israel. So if anyone else has thrones as alluded to in Rev we dont know how many or exactly who it is that it will be, but no where does it say kings will rule on thrones, (at least in the oldest manuscripts which agree with the rest of scriptures) and as for those part of the 1st resurrection we know they will reign with Christ as priests, Christ being a King and priest.
    This calls to question our old thinking of the 144,000 being a number of the church ruling with Jesus. The bible actually doesnt say this anywhere that I can tell, it says there will be 144,000 sealed from 12 tribes of Israel and that they are redemed from the earth.
    Hopefully more info will be added by others, this is what I have found thus far. I have to now question these things as the bible is not clear, if it is I have yet to see it. There can be any number of ways to interpret these things but if the bible does not interpret itself I personally do not like to add to it and teach to others that a matter is in fact truth or set in stone.

  51. Bro. Dave says:


    We began with one of our brothers introducing a topic for a future meeting: the use of the terms \”kings\” vs \”priests\” vs \”kingdom\” vs \”priesthood\”
    Example Scriptures using different translations:

    Then we studied
    and focused on the ending portion of the verse, \”to her husband WITH [H5973] her\”, and its implications, especially to women historically all the way down through today.

    deceived [G538]

    beguiled [G1818 G1537 G538]

    From this beginning, our sisters led a spirited Scriptural discussion of the \”Eve effect\” [my term] and how it has been used detrimentally by various organizations down through history all the way through the current time.

    Next meeting we will address the question,
    ”At this exact point (immediately after Gen_3:6), what is Adam and Eve’s standing – perfection or imperfection – with JHVH?”

    And, ”How did JHVH directly deal with imperfect Adam & Eve (Gen 3:21), and yet we require a Mediator (1Ti_2:5-6, Heb_9:11-15, Joh_14:6)?”

  52. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we completed a quick overview of:
    Strong\’s meanings for the uses of faith, faithful and faithfulness in the King James Version (KJV):

    Occurs only twice in KJV of OT

    H529 H539

    H530 H529 H539

    245x in KJV of NT
    G3640 – 5 times in negative
    G4102 – about 240 times

    Occurs 28x interchangeably with FAITHFULNESS in KJV of OT
    H530 H529 H539
    H540 H539

    54 times in KJV of NT
    primarily as G4103 G3982

    Occurs 19x interchangeably with FAITHFUL in KJV of OT
    H530 H529 H539

    ZERO times in KJV of NT

    We discussed how we can WITNESS our faith, to JHVH and to others.

    For its detailed commentary mixed with Scripture, we started with Heb_11:1 AMPLIFIED:
    (1) NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].

    We discussed how we witness from a simple faith of KNOWING the sun will appear in the morning, up to and including a more complex faith in the surety of the Millennial Kingdom, the absolute certainty of the fulfillment of Rev_21:4, and beyond.

    We continued by beginning studying about Adam and Eve (Gen_3:6-8)

    Next meeting we will begin with the question,
    \”At this exact point (immediately after Gen_3:6), what is Adam and Eve\’s standing – perfection or imperfection – with JHVH?\”

    And, \”how did JHVH directly deal with imperfect Adam & Eve (Gen_3:21), and yet we require a Mediator (1Ti_2:5-6, Heb_9:11-15, Joh_14:6)?\”

  53. Bro. Dave says:


    First we reviewed last week\’s discussion of \”the Mark of the Beast\”:
    We studied:
    1. Other groups\’ interpretations, such as the Watchtower, Bible Students, etc.
    2. Possible timing of the events,
    3. Historical context of similar events.

    In light of recent events, we discussed \”demonic possession\”:
    Judas – Satan entered into him.
    Are some cases identified as \”mentally ill\” actually \”demonic possession\”?

    Jesus cast out demons.
    Isn\’t that what needs to happen today?

    Someone commits terrible crime.
    When asked why, many times the perpetrator says, \”Something just came over me\”.

    Satan does not read minds, but he can see what we\’re looking at.

    Demons can enter that mind because person stepped over into demons\’ territory.
    Demons cannot enter into body where Holy Spirit dwells.
    So these demons need to be removed – HOW?
    Victim has to subject themselves to JHVH first, then fight against satan.
    James 4:7
    Submit to … God — so ye shall be among “the humble,” Jas_4:6; also Jas_4:10; 1Pe_5:6.
    Resist … devil — Under his banner pride and envy are enlisted in the world; resist his temptations to these. Faith, humble prayers, and heavenly wisdom, are the weapons of resistance. The language is taken from warfare. “Submit” as a good soldier puts himself in complete subjection to his captain. “Resist,” stand bravely against.
    he will flee [G5343] — Translate, “he shall flee.” For it is a promise of God, not a mere assurance from man to man [Alford]. He shall flee worsted as he did from Christ.

    Must call on JHVH

    NEXT Meeting:
    1. the meaning and usage of faith, faithful, and faithfulness;
    2. the Mediator (used six times in KJV New Testament (Gal_3:19-20; Heb_8:6; Heb_9:15; Heb_12:24; also the verb, Heb_6:17, Greek \”mediated\’), especially in light of the Hebrew meanings of the words in Gen_3:6, Gen_3:8 and Gen_3:21.
    3. We will study Rev_19:11-21, what the Scriptures actually explain, as well as how they are interpreted by the JW\’s, the BS\’s and others.

  54. jacqueline says:

    Bro. Dave I too will have to go over this in Revelation. It is sometimes difficult if it is a future event, So I will do my due diligence and study this further. Last night’s study was insightful but a little too deep for my brain, lol.
    I just wanted to post some of the breakdowns of what I am trying to do to put Revelation in little bite-size and digestive pieces. One thing I have learned is hundreds of years can be between 2 thoughts in a sentence. Like Jesus and Isa 61:1.

    Revelation 1:19 sets three time periods to the book – what you have seen, what is now, and what will happen afterward. The first time period records the vision of the Son of Man (Revelation 1:10-20), which refers to his Resurrection. The second time period includes the messages to the Seven Churches, Chapters 2 and 3, in which the word repent occurs seven times. The third time period comprises the future (4-22), which presents a split-stage effect, offering scenes of both heaven and earth. Chapter 4 begins scenes of heavenly worship, which are interspersed throughout and provide continuity to this intriguing text but also offer a contrast to the terrifying images during the Tribulation on The Revelation to John often reflects imagery found in Hebrew Scripture, such as the Books of Job, Daniel, and Ezekiel. For example, the Son of Man in Daniel 7:13 is referenced in Revelation 1:13 and 14:14. Jesus calls himself the Son of Man in all Four Gospels, fulfilling the destiny of the Messianic figure in the Book of Daniel.

    The number seven resounds throughout Revelation and often serves as a key to important events. There are the seven Churches, and the seven seals, trumpets, and bowls. There are seven angels who stand before the Lord (8:2). One also speaks of the seven Blessings or Beatitudes of Revelation, as found in 1:3, 14:13, 16:15, 19:9, 20:6, 22:7, and 22:14. Following the proclamation of the Kingdom of God (11:15), seven spiritual figures are revealed: the Woman clothed with the sun (12:1); the dragon (12:3), that ancient serpent of Genesis, who is called the devil and Satan (12:9); the male child, destined to rule all nations with an iron rod (12:5); Michael (12:7); the sea beast (13:1); the land beast (13:11), who implanted the mark- of the beast; and the Lamb of God (14:1). earth (7:14).

  55. Lee Anthony says:

    Wanted to add to this Dave since I had not had a chance to restudy or think about this. I think we missed quite a bit in the study by not looking at the whole context when we read about this mark, it goes a lot farther than we see in just the few verses mentioned. The events of the past are true, but certain things stand out w/ scripture. 1st it specifically says on right hand or forehead… Also the chapters 13-16 are All in same context and timeframe, if read carefully. The mark is also associated in chap 13-16 (Same context) looking at the timeframe and the many angels who appear in chap. 15 and the Final 7 angels are spoken of in chap. 15 all spoken of in context with those who had or had not taken the mark. Last angels speak of the last plagues are told to go out and pour out these plagues in chapter 16, all those who have the mark are the ones affected here. Jesus told us to watch, and this is something we should certainly watch for cause some of what happens here was spoken of by Jesus pertaining to end times, our times… Its hard to stop short with the simple long time protestant view, no offense to those who take this view, It is deeper than we realize according to the scriptures.

  56. Bro. Dave says:


    From one of our members’ suggestion, tonight we asked the question:
    In the end times, why will mankind WILLINGLY be sealed with the “Mark of the Beast”?

    We studied:
    Rev_13:1-18 , especially Rev_13:15-17

    and the meanings of:
    The mark [G5480] is equivalent to the name [G3686 G1097] of the beast [G2342] and the number [G706 G142] of his name [G3686 G1097].

    Possible interpretation:
    Was this fulfilled by Holy Roman Empire?
    Everything written in Rev 13:15-17 has been accomplished by Holy Roman Empire?
    Was unique – was a universal church.
    If everyone in a village did not submit, they would execute entire village.
    Rice Christians – those who adopted Catholic religion in return for material benefit instead for religious reasons.
    Many Rice Christians overtly converted, but covertly kept their beliefs.
    Therefore, the second beast – and the Man of Sin, and the AntiChrist – was the Holy Roman Empire?


    While we didn’t EXACTLY get to answering the question, why will mankind WILLINGLY take up the “Mark of the Beast”,
    here are some “imagining” points that apply equally well to a past or future event:
    Imagine living in a world where you are the enemy of the state because you believe and worship the true God, JHVH.
    Imagine having to choose between JHVH and the access to money and credit so you can buy groceries, clothing or anything for your family.
    Imagine a world where your family is in need, and the “things” of life are abundant and readily available, but the price tag is your life.

    NEXT MEETING, 8/2/2019, we will have a quick discussion of the Biblical use of “faith, faithful, faithfulness”, and the meaning of the Hebrew words in selected Scriptures in Genesis.

  57. Rene says:

    Hello Br. Dave

    I just wanted to take a minute to let you know how much I appreciate your contributions to the site. I especially enjoy the depth of knowledge and mild temperament of spirit that you bring to our discussions every Thursday. I appreciate how every discussion is open, but everything is weighed against the glorification of God and if our conclusions about scripture accomplish that. I appreciate how disagreements about scriptural interpretations are addressed with patient reasoning and long suffering just as the scriptures outline how believers should address disagreements. Thank you also for taking the time to post a summary for those of us that are not able to attend on Thursday, we all really appreciate it. As you know my health doesn’t always allow me to do what I would like to do, and it is nice to know that I can find out what I missed and add comments if I think of anything relevant to add.

    Please keep up the good work as a good example of what a minister to the flock is and should be, a patient and loving counselor.

  58. jacqueline says:

    Traveler, may I please ask that you let Admin decide on the length of a commenters reply. Our Hosts of the Free Conference Calls Forums have no restrictions on their posts lengths.

    We want to respect each other and attribute perceived errors to the correct person. I am the one putting the video at the end of every page. We have nations that don’t have access to “YouTube” but can view it if hosted by a site, not on their banned list.
    Ex Jehovah witnesses are not the only Christians, we are all of the body of Christ and the Spirit is with other members also of the Christian fellowship such as the posted youtube videos below.

    If it is an Administration problem, please address the admin and all three of us will talk about it and decide if there is merit to a complaint. Thank you

  59. traveler says:

    Bro Dave, should watch the length there brother. House keeping, interesting you should put it that way . For those who have a good deal of scriptural study under their belt consideration, reason and logic on the scriptures should be a simple matter without throwing scripture back and forth. I thought this was a conversation. Independent thought and a stand on that thought is what each person stands before God with. After centuries ending in a prophetically predicted state where mankind loses touch with any way to be saved, in other words to find God, the time was cut short so that some flesh might be saved. There is no mention of religion not being present among mankind though at Armageddon, only that it will end with its influence causing the state in which of mankind loses the ears to hear and the eye to see. So putting your house in order I assume was your confident reason behind this last post; the confidence of the crusaders, the JW’s and all those who read over and over the ideas that lead to no logical conclusions.

    Sharing thought to learn is just that, take what you can. I believe it when you say you are reasoning on the scriptures but again and again it’s a you tube video, or this minister, or that. Always some source where some man is telling us that he reasoned through and we should see the light based on his credentials.

    The spirit of understanding dose not inspire, that was already done. This might be a place to look for understanding. I would suggest looking into the nature of holy spirit and the differing conditions it is given to achieve several different goals, gifts, and adoption. I am just trying to get people to step back and look at the whole picture to make sense of “why” this reality is in this state, under God’s control, or in this case apparent lack of it. Satan is the god of this system. This system, that system, God’s system, god’s system Jesus returning the system he is given control over so that it can be returned to it’s original state, so that it can be handed back over to Yahweh.

    So good luck with taking the lead to set this house/site in order, although I believe Jacqueline is doing a better job at running the site than you or I would. Thanks for your thoughts I believe they were honestly meant to enlighten me and as such I appreciate the effort.

  60. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we concluded our study as presented by one of our members:

    Synopsis: There are two issues:
    first God’s sovereign free will and counsel;
    second man’s freedom of choice.

    Does God create, call, and/or elect particular individuals for the completion of His Plan, unmoved by any quality or condition in those particular individuals, and without them having any will or choice in the matter, while leaving others to exercise their free will?

    predestination G4309 G4253 G3724 G3725

    Synonyms: Foreordination, preappointment, predetermined path

    Scripture: Act_2:23, Act_13:48, Rom_8:29-30, 1Co_2:7, Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11.

    Related ideas: foreknowledge, eternal purpose

    Greek References: προοριζω (proorizo) 4309 (Strong)

    God\’s sovereign free will – does He do what He wants with whomever He chooses – and nothing those chosen people can do about it?

    Jon_1:17 THRU

    JHVH wants Job to interact as person.

    10 just men.
    JHVH knew there weren\’t 10 just men when He agreed to lower the number.

    Is it possible that JHVH likes to discuss some matters with His creation, and is willing to, as it were, bargain?

    From the Scriptures, JHVH will not change what He\’s going to do, but He appears to make concessions to the steps toward accomplishing His Will.

    Is it possible a platypus is a concession in His creation?
    All these parts that just don\’t go together.


    Did Jesus have a choice to say yes or no?

    Questions to consider:
    Did Adam, Eve and Satan have a choice?

    Satan is Father of the lie.
    If Satan was predestined to be evil, then JHVH would be Father of the lie?

    Satan had a choice to be what he was supposed to be, but wanted to be more.
    Was Satan supposed to help Adam & Eve make the world a paradise?

    Are we confusing being \”called\” [G2822] with being predestined?
    Ex: Moses

    Only thing that is predestined is JHVH\’s Word.
    Especially prophecy.
    Ex: Chess – JHVH knows every move and its result.
    Joh_3:16 – Humans care allowed to refuse and resist.

    Is it true:
    Mankind has free will.
    But when JHVH decides to use someone, He will use that person for whatever role He wishes, no matter what that person wishes.


    Prophecy during at end times.
    People from angels to humans willingly taking up the mark of the beast.

    QUESTION – In the end times, why will mankind WILLINGLY take up the \”Mark of the Beast\”?

  61. Bro Dave says:

    Bro Dave reply to Travelers:

    A few housekeeping items first.
    While all of our group asks for Holy Spirit to help us in our understanding:
    No one in our group claims to be under inspiration, so our own understanding is just that: our own.
    No one expects another member to accept someone else\’s understanding without solid Scriptural support (not interpretive) .
    Each person\’s understanding is as likely to contain error as another\’s.

    So with that out of the way,

    Predestination, as I scripturally understand it, means that JHVH decided before creating human beings what he wanted them to be like (Gen_1:26-31)

    But, JHVH knows everything from the end to the beginning (Isa_46:10).
    JHVH had already seen what was going to happen with Adam.
    JHVH already knew that Adam would sin and man would need Redeemer.

    Adam still made his own choice; JHVH had already seen what Adam\’s choice was going to be before Adam made it.

    In JHVH\’s Plan, He purposed salvation and eternal life for anyone who would accept His Son Jesus Christ (Mat_25:34, 1Pe_1:17-20).

    Even though there will be the distinct possibility of second death for anyone who rejects Christ, that is not what JHVH wants. Rather, \”God desires all men to be saved\” (1Ti_2:4-6).

    Certain creeds say that JHVH chose particular individuals to be saved without any consideration whatsoever of a person’s worthiness or disposition.

    Those whom JHVH chose were no more deserving of, or disposed toward, JHVH’s grace than those whom JHVH passed by, and nobody (except JHVH) had any choice in the matter.

    By not choosing the rest of humankind, JHVH effectively, if not deliberately, consigned them to eternal damnation —again with no quality or disposition in them moving JHVH to decide their destiny.

    None of them, it is claimed, had any personal choice or say in it, and cannot change what JHVH has effectively decreed for them.

    As students of the Scriptures, we know the error in such human theories and teachings; nonetheless, many people still accept them as \”truth\”.

    The heavenly inheritance which the Bride of Christ (the Church; the Body of Christ) obtains is secure, because, that group, or class. was predestined from the beginning and are sealed until the end, according to the sovereign purpose of JHVH who works all things according to the counsel of His will (Eph_1:13-14).

    It\’s also true that anyone can reject JHVH’s purpose for them.

    As examples:

    JHVH purposed that Adam and Eve should not eat of a certain tree, yet they went contrary to God’s will (Gen_3:1-6).

    Jesus wanted to gather the people of Jerusalem to himself, but they were unwilling, rejected their destiny, and their city was made desolate (Mat_23:37-38).

    The Pharisees and lawyers refused to be baptized by John, \”rejecting God’s counsel for themselves\” (Luk_7:30).

    According to His purpose, JHVH has called tthe class whom he foreknew and predestined, and the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable (Rom_8:28-29, Rom_11:29).

    But this does not mean that the gifts and calling of God are unconditional or irresistible.

    The condition \”if you continue in…\” has always been a part of JHVH’s calling and counsel; we humans, as individuals, choose whether or not to fulfill that condition (Rom_11:22, Col_1:22-23).

    God, before the world began, pre-ordained that His Son Jesus Christ would die for the sins of the world (Act_2:23, Act_4:27-28, 1Co_2:7-8).

    This was so that none should perish but all might have everlasting life (Joh_3:16, 2Pe_3:9).

    That group of humans who choose to follow JHVH\’s pre-determined path to that life, through the cross of Christ, are thereby predestined by JHVH because they follow the path He predetermined for them.

    Calvinists have God predestinating particular people, then ordaining that Christ should die for them.

    But God pre-ordained that Christ should die for all people in general, and that whoever follows Christ should not perish but have eternal life.

    Since the path to eternal life was predetermined irrevocably, anyone who wishes may take that path and be certain of reaching its destination.

    My understanding is that that is the sense in which people are predestinated.

    For example:

    Imagine you are considering embarking on a train journey.

    Certain things are predetermined: the schedule, the price, the route, the conditions and rights of travel, and, most important of all, the destination.

    Those things have long been decided by the authority or company.

    You have no direct or immediate say in those things, although it is fair to say that they have been determined with your interests generally at heart.

    The company also has advertised its desire for you to use the train service it provides, and given you every assistance and encouragement.

    The company has also made the system wholly safe and reliable so that you can use it with the utmost confidence.

    To reach the destination, however, you must get on the train and stay on the train, and to do those things, you must make decisions and fulfill conditions.

    These decisions and conditions are well within your capacity to handle responsibly.

    Everything therefore has been set up so that, if you choose, you can get on the train, stay on the train, and reach your destination.

    Or you may choose not to.

    Either way, the train will still reach its destination (predestination) with the group, or class, that chooses to remain on board (individual free will).

    I believe that\’s the way predestination works.

  62. Bro. Dave says:

    Br. Travelers:
    THANK YOU for your post.
    I’m not ignoring your post, but am praying and studying it.
    I’d like to answer you as Scripturally as possible, without getting into a “Scriptural firefight”.
    So please bear with me for a bit and I’ll do my best to respond with my understanding, based on my understanding of the Scriptures.
    But, as in all things where interpretation is involved, YOUR Scriptural interpretation is just as valid as anyone else’s – up to and including mine.
    Br. Dave

  63. travelers says:

    Bro. Dave, predestination, interesting thoughts. Here’s a bit more. The reality God created was based on “right” and “wrong”. Why is that? There is no “way” out of this. You and everyone else was created to operate on this basis… Predestination?

    Free will suggests that a “question” can exist. Yet in this world of religion, God knows all and all serves his will… predestination?

    So again, why did God create a reality with good and BAD?

    Don’t worry about the blind guy, God already killed millions with the flood for being blind.

    So we need to grow “ears” and learn to “see”, peer a little deeper than those millions at the flood, before we’re among the billions at Armageddon.

    Don’t want to leave you there, sounds negative.

    God is love, you can be sure. He just wants us to figure it “OUT”, make our minds over, UP.

  64. jacqueline says:

    Wow! What a discussion tonight. I have a lot of homework for next week lesson. Lee Anthony, your presentation was great. We all left feeling Blessed because I guess I never thought about his foreknowledge of each of us and his knowing He could use us.
    It is humbling when you go thru so much to be free from long-held doctrines of men, then discover Jehovah knew you would. Nothing is by accident, God has seen it and intervenes when it pushes it toward his will.
    It is a spiritual war going on out there, God protects and intervenes between us and the devil. Deliver us from the evil one, now I understand that in our Prayer!

    Jehovah is like the helicopter seeing the entire Race and knows who has fallen and who has won but not the people at the start gate.

    Jehovah is outside of our time constraints and physical universe, God has seen our end and prophecizes about it to show to us humans that he knows it all and we can trust Him.

    Isaiah 46:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
    10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
    And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
    Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
    And I will do all My pleasure,’

    I have been energized to Praise and Worship God more fully. I am going to sing some songs of praise with the youtube, Yolanda and some others wile I do housework. Goodnight

  65. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we studied the Scriptural basis of predestination versus free will as presented by one of our brothers.

    It was a Scriptural study that really got the brain juices flowing.

    We considered the concept that there are certain things that JHVH wants to accomplish and no matter how humans feel about it, He will accomplish His Plan.

    The question is whether or not certain people are predestined by JHVH to accomplish these tasks; e.g., Jonah, Moses, Cyrus, Mary (Jesus\’ mother).

    We looked at the Greek Scriptures where the Strong\’s definition of \”predestination\” is found:

    G4309 G4253 G3724


    We studied the following Scriptures, among others:

    We discussed:
    If we are doomed, it is because of our rejection of God; if we are redeemed, it is because of the grace of God.
    The question is not: Why are some saved and some condemned?
    Everyone deserves condemnation.
    It is only by God\’s grace that anyone is saved.
    Is this predestination or intervening?

    Was this Predestination or intervention?
    Did JHVH cause the man to be born blind (or was a man who had been born blind at the right place at the right time) so that Jesus could heal him and thus reveal the works of JHVH, His healing power.
    Think of the years that this man carried the burden of blindness until the time it could be used for JHVH\’s glory.

    We studied
    To show us He is God, He gives us prophecy – to us it\’s the future, to Him it already happened.

    Next meeting we will continue our study by looking at more Scriptures, including:

  66. Lee Anthony says:

    For next weeks study I would like everyone to listen to this talk in order to get an idea of what I will present and also please look up the scriptures and study the thoughts. I will add more to it Thursday. Thanks!

  67. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we discussed the last two facets of the Fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23):

    We discovered that while meekness is NOT the same as kindness (G5544), temperance has the same Strong\’s definition as joy.


    Meekness is demonstrated by the highest courage and activity; and is a qualification for public leadership.
    Jesus Christ stands before us as the perfect pattern of meekness.


    1Co_13:5; Php_2:4

    That rest which the soul experiences when once safe under Christ’s wing makes all yokes easy, all burdens light.


    TRULY, in a meek and quiet spirit is the secret of rest.

    That rest which the soul experiences when once safe under Christ’s wing makes all yokes easy, all burdens light.

    To be meek is:
    to cultivate the graces of patience;
    of loving submission to the will of God;
    of abiding confidence in His love and care and in the wisdom of His guiding counsel and overruling providences; and
    to persistently pursue this course through evil and through good report, or through favorable or unfavorable circumstances.

    Meekness does not mean you are a pushover or weak.

    temperance:G5479 G5463 <== same Strong\'s numbers as \"joy\"

    It covers the whole range of moral discipline, and concerns every sense and passion of our nature.

    Temperance is a practised mastery of self.

    Temperance is the steady and prompt control of the outlooking, sensibilities and appetencies, and inwardly moving desires.



    Temperance is the guarded step, the sober, measured walk in which Christian goodness keeps the way of life, and makes straight paths for stumbling and straying feet.

    Next meeting, 7/18/2019, we will be studying a topic presented by one of our members and also the verses Gen_3:8 and Gen_3:21.

  68. Bro Dave says:


    Tonight we studied primarily Hebrews chapter 10.

    Believers should live by faith (Heb_10:38-39)

    We live in a world of roaring lions (1Pe_5:8) and therefore must be on guard.
    Yet the safest way to live in a world of spiritual dangers is to build up our strength, not to hide our faith in secrecy.

    Faith does not shrink back and seem pious from a worldly point of view, but it speaks out boldly with strength gained from Jehovah\’s Word.

    Hebrews offers some suggestions (verses separated by the thought conveyed):

    Heb_10:35-39; Isa 8:17; Isa_46:13; Hab_2:3

    And, if our walk with Christ is real, it should become evident to others (Jas_2:14, Jas_2:26; Jas_3:13).

    Also, that Heb_11:1-3:
    * is not a definition of faith, but a description of what faith does;
    * Faith treats things hoped for as reality (\”Substance\” [G5287] [assurance – AMP; things – YLT; assumption – CLV] mean “essence” or “reality.”);
    * Faith itself proves that what is unseen is real (2Co_4:18);
    * Faith understands that the invisible God created the vast universe, eons, periods of time; and that,
    * Since we were not spectators of creation; it is by faith we perceive it.

    1. We concluded that Spiritual strength and health means integrating our faith with every area of life.

    2. Faith is not just one more thing on a list of a hundred things, but rather the foundation of who we are.

    3. Faith that is alive and growing, is faith unleashed!

    For 7/4/2019: In order for our group to be able to spend the day with their families, we will NOT meet this night.

    For 7/11/2019: We will resume with Gal 5:23, Meekness and Temperance.

  69. Bro Dave says:


    Tonight we studied Heb_10:19 – Heb_12:17.

    Those who live the life of faith in Jehovah will suffer.

    These sufferers include:
    the original readers of Hebrews (Heb_10:32-39; Hab_2:3; Hab_2:4; Zep_1:6; Mal_1:10; Isa_26:20)
    E.g.: The generation of Israel who did not go into the promised land because they shrunk back.
    the OT faithful (Heb_11:1-40), including surprising named faithful, described faithful and equally surprising names omitted.
    more than anyone else, Jesus Himself (Heb_12:1-4 Psa_110:1).

    Also, Jehovah uses suffering to strengthen His true children (Heb_12:5-11).

    Therefore, be encouraged (Heb_12:12-17).

    Next week we will study growing our faith, as taught in Heb 10:19-39.

  70. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we continued our study of Galatians 5:22-23, by discussing:

    FAITH G4102 G3982

    We considered Thayer\’s and Strong\’s definitions.

    We testified to our own definitions of what faith is and what faith does.
    Faith & faithful – faithful is JHVH
    Faith is something we can rely on.
    JHVH is always faithful. He always does what He says. He does not change His Mind.
    Faithful, i.e., JHVH, is precise and error-free.
    Faith is what gives us JHVH and Jesus. Faith provides the proof.
    1Co_13:13 – Do we have to have faith to have hope or love?

    We contrasted faith with hope.
    We have hope because we have faith in JHVH.
    Hope signifies what COULD happen.
    Faith is what WILL happen. PERIOD.
    Some organizations do not believe that everyone has a hope for salvation.
    Some preach hope when they personally do NOT have any.
    Disconnect between hope and faith may have occurred with satan\’s adding error and influence over the men who were and are taking the lead in these organizations.
    By emphasizing hope in organizations, it makes faith harder to cultivate, thus impedes our pleasing JHVH – Heb_11:6.

    We discussed the end of faith – 1co 13:8-13
    At end of Millennial Kingdom and forward, we will no longer need faith – we will see everything so neither faith nor hope will be required.
    Mankind has \”time\” – JHVH does not.
    Faith is a stage that mankind goes through and when our reality intersects with JHVH\’s reality.
    We grow out of that stage once we have reached that point.


    Next week, we will continue our study of FAITH.

    In preparation for next weeks meeting. please review Heb_10:19 – Heb_12:17.

  71. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we began by expanding on last week’s study on the facet, or characteristic, of gentleness (kindness) in Galatians 5:22, studying Eph_4:32 and advising watching the Dr. Stanley video at the bottom of this page.

    Next, we studied the facet of goodness,G19 G18.

    Thayer Definition:
    1) uprightness of heart and life, goodness, kindness
    Part of Speech: noun feminine
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G18

    From G18; goodness, that is, virtue or beneficence: – goodness.
    Total KJV occurrences: 4

    We delved into:

    Next meeting we will begin our study of the next facet, faith,G4102 G3982.

    HOMEWORK: Please review Hebrews, Chapter 11, emphasizing verses 1-3.

  72. Bro Dave says:


    Tonight we studied kindness (gentleness) [G5544 G5543 G5530] as it pertains to being a facet of the Fruit of teh Spirit.

    Thayer Definition:
    1) moral goodness, integrity
    2) benignity, kindness
    Part of Speech: noun feminine
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G5543

    From G5543; usefulness, that is, moral excellence (in character or demeanor): – gentleness, good (-ness), kindness.
    Total KJV occurrences: 10

    We studied:

    We also discussed some future topics, such as the \”Gap Theory\” and \”Does Jehovah Change His Mind?\”

    Next week, we\’ll study the facet of goodness,G19 G18

  73. Bro. Dave says:


    The fruit of the Spirit is not mere moral or legal correctness, but, as a diamond has facets smoothed and polished to see its brilliance, in the Christian the possession and manifestation of nine facets: love, joy, peace (character as an inward state); longsuffering, gentleness, goodness (character in expression toward man); faith, meekness, temperance (character in expression toward Jehovah).

    Taken together they present a moral portrait of Christ, and may be taken as the apostle’s explanation of Gal_2:20 “Not I, but Christ,” and as a definition of “fruit” in Joh_15:1-8

    This character is possible because of the believer’s vital union to Christ; Joh_15:5; 1Co_12:12; 1Co_12:13 and is wholly the fruit of the Spirit in those believers who are totally consecrated – without conditions or reservations – to Him.

    Tonight we continued to discuss the Fruit of the Spirit as described in Galatians 5:22-23.

    In particular, the facet of peace.

    PEACE [G1515]:

    For next meeting, we will begin our study with the facets of longsuffering and gentleness.

  74. jacqueline says:

    I just want to say tonight was a powerful faith strengthening study of the Bible.
    We don’t use books, although we have for most of our lives done topical structured study of a doctrine.

    Now we do a verse study of just the Bible to prove itself. It causes us to focus on words we have never seen or thought about as a book study indoctrinates you the way the author or authors want you to go.

    It puts a new spin on the phrase “Freedom in Christ”.
    We were in bondage in plain sight.

    Books have their place and there are many Spirit guided Voices to listen to or read, but never will I just hear one man’s voice.

    The 9 or more that we have on are able to speak and bring so much as the Holy Spirit speaks thru them by helping them to see it from another Angle.

    If I die today or tomorrow I die a free person in Christ, finally.

    All are welcome by phone, internet or both. Come on the internet without voice so you can use the chat and see who is on and speaking. Also by phone so you can move around or go to another room and take it with you. This conference call setup is nice.
    We can turn on our cameras also to see each other.

    Well goodnight and hopefully all will join on Saturday night for fellowship and testimony meeting or whatever you want to talk about. Peace

  75. jacqueline says:

    This is what we were studying before Memorial on Thursday. Please go to the end of the post for the study for tonight.

    Tonight, we discussed:
    Gifts of the Spirit (1Co_12:7-10, 1Co_14:2-25) – are they still active, in whole or in part today?

    Included in our study, we looked at Strong’s and Thayer’s definitions of several of the key terms in the Scriptures, as well as:

    “perfect” [G5046 G5056]; and,

    Concerning 1Co_13:13, we studied:
    Rom_8:24; and,

    For Mar 14, 2019, we will open our meeting with a decision about whether or not to conduct a Memorial Service on April 18, 2019 (the Memorial date published in The Herald), for any and all who cannot attend a Memorial Service personally.

    If we decide to have a Memorial Service, we’ll also create an agenda of meeting discussions for Thursday nights leading up to the Memorial Service, pertaining to Scriptures detailing the events which fulfilled prophecy leading up to Jesus’ Ransom Sacrifice, Resurrection and His Ascension.

    Afterwards, we will commence our discussion of the Fruits of the Spirit (Gal_5:22-23), comparing and contrasting the Fruits with the Gifts of the Spirit discussed Mar 7, 2019,

  76. Jacqueline says:
    This is the Link I mentioned on our Thursday night meeting explaining why we can’t harmonize these 2 because they talk about different things at different times. Although some parts are speaking about the destruction of 70 AD.
    Matt 24 vs Luke 21.

  77. Bro. Dave says:


    In preparation for the Memorial, tonight we delved into the Emblems of that Memorial, namely the bread and the wine.

    We discussed key Scriptures:




    blood [symbol of life given up in death] (Lev_17:11)






    We discussed the meaning of the unleavened bread (Exo_34:25, 1Co_5:6-7) and that the Church, as a whole, is the “one loaf” now being broken (1Co_10:16-17).

    We looked into:




    Then we asked the question, Who May Partake of the Emblems?

    This new institution was not laid upon Jesus’ followers as a law, and no penalties were attached for failure of its proper observance.

    While ALL are welcome to attend, we determined that partaking of the emblems of the Lord’s Supper is not for the world, nor for merely nominal believers, but only for those who,
    (1) accept Jesus Christ as their Redeemer and sin-bearer, and,
    are (2) consecrated to him and his service, even unto death.

    1Co_11:28 – There is here a clearly drawn line of distinction, not only between the believers and unbelievers, but also between the consecrated and the unconsecrated.

    However, the line is to be drawn by each individual for himself or herself.

    But it is not for any man or set of men to decide who may and who may not partake.

    All are be welcomed to participate, regardless of your faith and harmony on other subjects, if you are in full accord in respect to these foundation truths:
    the redemption through the precious blood, and ,
    a full consecration unto death, giving them justification.

    However, not ignoring Paul’s warning in 1Co_11:27-29.

    ALL are welcome to attend our Memorial Service on 4/19/2019.

    Any wishing to partake of the emblems should have their wine (or grape juice, etc.) and unleavened bread (or crackers, etc.) within easy reach.

  78. Bro. Dave says:


    7 Last Words of Christ from the Cross


    “their bodies were torn to pieces, and were crucified, while they were still alive, and breathed.”

    In Antiquities 18: Chapter 3
    “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”


    1. “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do” (Luk_23:34).

    2. “Today you will be with me in Paradise” (Luk_23:39-43).

    About the 9th hour (3PM)

    3. “Woman, behold your Son” (Joh_19:26-27).

    4. “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mat_27:46).

    Eli,[G2241] Eli,[G2241] lama [G2982] sabachthani? [G4518]

    forsaken [G1459]

    5. “I thirst” (Joh_19:28).

    6. “It is finished” (Joh_19:30).

    finished: [G5055]

    First, Jesus had to finish the task the Father had sent Him to earth to accomplish, namely to provide salvation for humankind.

    Second, Jesus Fulfilled Prophecy

    Third, Jesus Achieved Victory Over The Devil

    Fourth, Jesus Suffering Was Finished

    7. “Father, into your hands I commend my spirit” (Luk_23:46).

    This was quoted from Psa_31:5


    Next meeting, 4/18/2019

    We will discuss the Emblems of the Memorial.

    On April 19, 2019, PROMPTLY at 8:30 PM EDT (7:30 PM CDT; 6:30 PM MDT; 5:30 PM PDT), we welcome you to observe the Memorial for our Redeemer, Jesus Christ, with us.

  79. Bro Dave says:


    I have been asked to publish these notes on this site.

    Please bear in mind that these are just my notes – I do not claim to be an authority.

    I am just a Truth-seeker, and subject to mistakes.

    If you find errors of commission or omission, please email me with that information.

    Also, FOR OUR MEETING ON 4/11/2019:

    The subject has been changed to:

    The Seven Last “Words” of Christ on the Cross”.

    I believe this is more in keeping with our Memorial theme.


    Jesus’ Last Day (Overview)
    Matthew Chapters 26-27
    Mark Chapters 14-15
    Luke Chapters 22-23
    John Chapters 13-19

    Difference between Jewish and Roman day.
    Jewish day – 6PM to 6PM
    Roman Day 12AM to 12AM

    Traditional Thursday
    The disciples prepare for the Passover (Mat_26:17-19 , Mar_14:12-16, Luk_22:7-13).
    Jesus washes His disciples’ feet (Joh_13:1-17)
    At sunset, they observe the last Passover Jesus will partake of (Mat_26:20-25, Mar_14:17-21, Luk_22:14-16, Joh_13:21-30).
    At that time, Jesus instituted the Memorial which we observe to this day (Mat_26:26-29, Mar_14:22-25, Luk_22:17-22).
    Luke alone records the strife over which disciple is the greatest (Luk_22:24-30)
    Luke alone also records where Jesus insures the preparation for going to the Mount of Olives includes everything necessary for Scriptural prophecy to be fulfilled (Luk_22:35-38)

    After the service is completed they sing a hymn then walk to the Mount of Olives (Mat_26:30, Mar_14:26, Luk_22:39).
    Walking on the Mount of Olives, Jesus reveals to Peter his upcoming denial of his Master ( Mat_26:31-35, Mar_14:27-31, Luk_22:31-34, Joh_13:36-38).
    (NOTE: In Luke, Peter;s denial is predicted BEFORE going to the Mount of Olives)
    At roughly 9 p.m., while walking to the Garden of Gethsemane (at the foot of the Mount of Olives), Jesus tells the disciples he is the True Vine (Joh_15:1-27).
    He offers his final words of encouragement (Joh_16:1-31) and again states that the disciples will leave him (Joh_16:32-33).
    In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus prays.
    ( Mat_26:36-45, Mar_14:32-41, Luk_22:39-46, )
    After midnight, when (according to the Roman calendar we use today) it becomes Traditional Friday, Judas arrives in the Garden of Gethsemane accompanied by armed officers and other men provided by the religious leaders. Judas, as a signal of which person to arrest, gives Jesus a kiss (Mat_26:45-56, Mar_14:41-50, Luk_22:47-53, Joh_18:1-12).
    At approximately 2 a.m. the High Priest Caiphas interviews his false witnesses, questions Jesus about His disciples and teachings but does not receive an answer.
    Frustrated, he adjures him by the living God to state whether or not he is the true Son of God (Mat_26:62-63, Mar_14:60-61, , Joh_18:12-14 Joh_18:19-24)
    The answer he receives (Mat_26:64, Mar_14:62 so angers him that he tears his clothes and cries out that Christ has committed blasphemy (Mat_26:65, Mar_14:63)
    The High Priest then immediately asks the council for a verdict, to which they unanimously shout that the death penalty should be carried out (Mat_26:59-68, Mar_14:55-65, Luk_22:63-65).
    Peter then denies Jesus three times (Mat_26:69-75, Mar_14:66-72, Luk_22:56-62, Joh_18:17, Joh_18:25-27).
    At approximately 5 to 6 a.m., because Jewish law demanded two sessions of the Sanhedrin hear and try a defendant, a second trial of Jesus was held around 5 a.m.
    This second trial, however, seems little more than than a “rubber stamp” or automatic approval of the first trial’s decision.
    Jesus is bound and sent to Pontius Pilate, the Roman Prefect of Judea, for punishment around 6 a.m. (Mat_27:1-2, Mar_15:1, Luk_22:66 – Luk_23:1, Joh_18:28)
    At sunrise Judas Iscariot repents of betraying Christ but still hangs himself. The Chief Priests decide to buy a potter’s field with thirty pieces of silver Judas gave back to them (Mat_27:3-10, Act_1:15-19)
    At approximately 7 a.m., instead of blasphemy, the Jewish leaders bring Jesus to Pontius Pilate under the charge of treason against Rome.
    His enemies want the Romans to do the dirty job of “legally” murdering him!
    While Pilate questions Jesus (Mat_27:11-14, Mar_15:2-5, Luk_23:2-4, Joh_18:29-30) he discovers he is from Galilee and sends him to Herod Antipas (Tetrach of Galilee and son of Herod the Great) for judgment.
    Herod questions him but receives no answers.
    Herod and his soldiers mock him, put a splendid robe on him, and send him back to Pilate (Luk_22:63-65; Luk_23:5-12).
    At roughly 8 a.m. Pontius Pilate tells the Jewish religious leaders that he and Herod Antipas find Jesus innocent.
    ( Luk_23:4; Luk_23:13-15; Joh_18:38)
    Pilate wishes to release him (Luk_23:13-15, Joh_18:31-38).
    Unable to do so because of the crowds, he releases the prisoner Barabbas. He then has his soldiers severely beat and scourge Jesus.
    (Mat_27:15-31; Mar_15:6-18; Luk_23:17-25; Joh_19:1-15)
    The soldiers take Jesus to Golgotha, also known as Calvary and the Place of the Skull, to be crucified.
    Along the route they force Simon of Cyrene to carry his cross (Mat_27:32-33, Mar_15:21-22, Luk_23:26-31, Joh_19:16-17).
    From 9 a.m. to noon Jesus is nailed to the cross. He is crucified along with two thieves (Mat_27:38, Mar_15:27-28, Luk_23:32-33, Joh_19:18).
    He is given wine (vinegar) mixed with gall to drink while on the cross (Mat_27:34, Mar_15:23).
    Roman soldiers also cast lots for his clothes. (Mat_27:35, Mar_15:24, Luk_23:34, Joh_19:24)
    Pontius Pilate has the charge against him written in Hebrew, Greek and Latin and put on Jesus’ cross. (Luk_23:38, Joh_19:19-22 )
    Near the end of his life Christ asks God the Father to forgive those that are killing him ( Luk_23:34).
    Some in the crowd, where Christ is crucified, stare at him in amazement.
    Others such as Roman soldiers, members of the Sanhedrin (chief priests, scribes, elders) and even the two thieves also being crucified, mock him. (Mat_27:39-45, Mar_15:29-33, Luk_23:35-44, )
    Many family and friends, at a distance, watch Jesus suffer on the cross. These include his mother Mary, her sister, Mary Magdalene and the apostle John ( Mat_27:55-56, Mar_15:40-41, Luk_23:48-49).
    From noon to 3 p.m. darkness covers the entire land.
    Jesus tells his mother, Mary, to now consider the apostle John her son and tells John to take care of his mother Mary (Joh_19:25-27).
    At 3 p.m. Jesus Christ, the Redeemer of all mankind, is forsaken – that is, the actual withdrawal of the Father’s favor and communion, by Jehovah and cries out with a loud voice: “Eli Eli, lama sabachthani?” Some in the crowd think he is calling out to the prophet Elijah (Mat_27:46-47, Mar_15:34-35).
    He is offered and accepts vinegar (sour wine) to wet his lips. (Psa_69:21; Mat_27:34; Mat_27:48; Mar_15:36; Luk_23:36; Joh_19:29; )

    After SIX AGONIZING HOURS of being nailed to and hanging on the cross:

    He cries out with a loud voice “It is Finished!” ( Psa_31:5; Mat_27:50; Mar_15:37; Joh_19:30 )
    His last words are: “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.”(Luk_23:46)
    The Jews, desiring the death of those crucified before the high Holy Day starts (around 6 pm), asks Pilate to break their legs. Pilate agrees.
    The legs of those crucified with Jesus are broken, but his are not since he is already dead (Joh_19:31-37).
    Pilate, just before sunset, allows Joseph of Arimathea, a rich member of the Sanhedrin, to take the body of Jesus.
    Joseph and Nicodemus wrap his body in fine linen with a mixture of myrrh and aloes and bury him in the brand new tomb Joseph had made for himself (Mat_27:57-61, Mar_15:42-47, Luk_23:50-55, Joh_19:38-42).
    The moment Jesus died, the temple veil (60 feet high) was split. (Mat_27:51; Mar_15:38; Luk_23:45)
    At sunset the First Day of Unleavened Bread, a high Holy Day where no work is allowed, begins.

  80. Bro. Dave says:


    Jesus’ Last Day (Overview)
    Matthew Chapters 26-27
    Mark Chapters 14-15
    Luke Chapters 22-23
    John Chapters 13-19

    Difference between Jewish and Roman day.
    Jewish Day – 6PM to 6PM
    Roman Day 12AM to 12AM

    For our study, we used the Jewish Day.

    Beginning with when the disciples prepare for the Passover (Mat_26:17-19 , Mar_14:12-16, Luk_22:7-13),

    and concluding with Pontius Pilate, just before sunset, allows Joseph of Arimathea to take the body of Jesus to the new tomb Joseph had made for himself (Mat_27:57-61, Mar_15:42-47, Luk_23:50-55, Joh_19:38-42).

    The intention was to read from all the Gospels to get a “four-cornered” perspective of the most important events of that 6PM to 6PM day.

    The truth was that there were just too many Scriptures to study adequately in the allotted time, so notes were emailed to all participants for their personal study.

    On 4/11/2019, we will open the meeting and discuss our upcoming Memorial presentation on April 19. Then we will study Jesus fulfilling Messianic prophecy.

    If you are planning to attend our Memorial Service on April 19,
    if you plan to partake of the emblems, please remember to arrange to have those emblems on hand on April 19, at,
    8:30 PM EDT
    7:30 PM EDT
    6:30 PM EDT
    5:30 PM EDT

  81. Dave says:

    For 4/4/2-19:

    Jesus’ Last Day (Overview)
    Matthew Chapters 26-27
    Mark Chapters 14-15
    Luke Chapters 22-23
    John Chapters 13-19

  82. Dave says:


    “Behold, the Lamb of God”

    We reviewed Jesus’ role as the “Lamb of God” (Joh_1:29 and Joh_1:36).

    We reviewed and discussed the following:

    Q – When – generally – was this part of JHVH’s Plan conceived?

    Q – What does the story if Abraham taking Isaac to Moriah for sacrifice have to do with the Jesus’ Ransom Sacrifice?

    Q – What Scriptures support Jesus becoming the anti-typical sacrificial lamb?


    Q – How do we know that Jesus was voluntarily obedient to Jehovah’s Arrangement?

  83. jacqueline says:

    This is a repost of Dave’s comment for 3/28/2019:

    March 21, 2019

    Holding to:
    Matthew 18:20 YLT for where there are two or three gathered together–to my name, there am I in the midst of them.
    we voted to have a Memorial on Friday, April 19, 2019, starting 8:30 PM ET (7:30 PM CT; 6:30 PM MT; 5:30 PM PT).

    We also voted to have Memorial Studies for the remaining four Thursday night meetings (INCLUDING April 18) before the Memorial.

    On March 28, 2019, we will study Scriptures, prophecies and type/antitype related to John 1:29 and John 1:36.

    As always, all are invited and welcome to participate.

  84. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    I came across this interesting video. It asks the question: Is the Lords Supper to be celebrated just once per year. He makes some interesting points! After viewing this video, what do you and others think?

  85. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    Here is an article I came across regarding the timing of the Passover meal:
    If Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation, why had He already eaten the Passover meal?
    Day of Preparation Question: \”If Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation, why had He already eaten the Passover meal?\”

    Answer: All four Gospels state that Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation (Matthew 27:62; Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:14, 31, 42). Mark, Luke, and John all state that the following day was the Sabbath. John’s account uses this wording: “It was the day of Preparation of the Passover” (John 19:14). The question becomes, since Jesus was killed on the Day of Preparation, why had He already observed the Passover with His disciples (Matthew 26:17–29; Mark 14:12–25; Luke 22:7–22; John 13:1–30)?

    First, we should discard the theory that the writers of the New Testament made a mistake. Theorizing that all four of the Gospel writers got the chronology wrong stretches credulity to the breaking point. Are we really to believe that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all forgot what they had written from one chapter to the next? No, there must be a better explanation for why Jesus ate the Passover before the Day of Preparation.

    Next, we need to identify what the Day of Preparation was preparing for. Every week, preparations had to be made for the Sabbath—food had to be prepared ahead of time. This led to the “Day of Preparation” becoming the common term for “Friday.” Although many preparations also had to be made for the Passover, there is no record of “Passover Eve” being called the Day of Preparation. The Day of Preparation was always Friday, the day before the Sabbath. Mark 15:42 makes this clear.

    How then do we explain John’s statement that Jesus died on “the day of Preparation of the Passover” (John 19:14)? It’s quite possible that John simply meant that this particular Friday fell during Passover week; we could understand his words this way: “It was the day of Preparation, the one that happened to come during the season of Passover.” So, the Day of Preparation was to prepare for the Sabbath, not the Passover.

    The Mosaic Law stipulated what day the Passover lamb was to be eaten: Nissan 14 (Numbers 9:2–3). We must assume that Jesus kept the Law and observed Passover at the appointed time (see Galatians 4:4). After the Passover (Thursday) came the Day of Preparation (Friday) on which Jesus was killed. The Sabbath (Saturday) followed, of course, and then the first day of the week (Sunday)—the third day after the crucifixion and the day on which Jesus rose from the dead.

    One objection to the above chronology is based on John 18:28, which says, “The Jewish leaders took Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness they did not enter the palace, because they wanted to be able to eat the Passover.” At first glance, it seems that, whereas Jesus had eaten the Passover the night before, the Jewish leaders had not yet eaten the Passover—they still “wanted to be able to eat” it after Jesus was arrested. To reconcile this verse with the Synoptic narratives, we must remember this: Passover was the first day of the week-long Feast of Unleavened Bread.

    The Feast (or Festival) of Unleavened Bread (Chag HaMatzot) lasted for a full week, from Nissan 15 to Nissan 22. The first day of Unleavened Bread coincided with the day of Passover. Because of the close relation between Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the whole week was sometimes referred to as “Passover.” The two holidays were (and still are) considered a single celebration. This explains John 18:28. The Jewish leaders had already eaten the Passover proper, but there still remained other sacrifices to be made and meals to be eaten. They were unwilling to defile themselves (Pilate’s palace contained leaven) because it would disqualify them from participating in the remainder of the week’s ceremonies (see Leviticus 23:8).

    There are other difficulties in pinpointing the exact chronology of Jesus’ arrest, trial, crucifixion, and resurrection. But this seems to be a workable solution:

    Thursday – Passover proper. The lamb is killed, and Jesus and His disciples eat the Passover meal in the upper room.

    Friday – the Day of Preparation. Jesus is tried and executed (although never convicted). The Jews continue their “Passover” celebrations with the chagigah, offerings made during the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

    Saturday – the weekly Sabbath.

    Sunday – Resurrection Day.

  86. jacqueline says:

    Dave by Monday I will put what you have stated in the permanent text of the Memorial page.
    Also, those assigned prayers and readings etc will get an email and program later from you. So your info will be in two places.
    I go home tomorrow and my entire family in this area will be there all weekend to situate my house and do stuff. I have been away for almost 3 months. All praise goes to Jehovah God and Jesus that I made it this far.

    Dave also, thank you so much for taking the lead and coordinating the Studies and now the Memorial. Jeff and Henry are workers also along side you. And we thank them also. So many are being blessed. Again all Praise goes to our Father and the Son.
    Saturday night at 7pm CST, 8pm EST, Henry will host the testimony meeting, so all wanting to hear and discuss what was said Thursday should come on if they can.
    PS: Dave, some of this is stated here for persons with questions although I addressed you. In Christ

  87. Dave says:

    March 21, 2019

    Holding to:
    Matthew 18:20 YLT for where there are two or three gathered together–to my name, there am I in the midst of them.
    we voted to have a Memorial on Friday, April 19, 2019, starting 8:30 PM ET (7:30 PM CT; 6:30 PM MT; 5:30 PM PT).

    We also voted to have Memorial Studies for the remaining four Thursday night meetings (INCLUDING April 18) before the Memorial.

    On March 28, 2019, we will study Scriptures, prophecies and type/antitype related to John 1:29 and John 1:36.

    As always, all are invited and welcome to participate.

  88. jacqueline says:

    Hi, Dave, some others had power outages but we stayed on until 9:30 and did testimony on how God has intervened in our lives. Missed you and look forward to next week.

  89. jacqueline says:

    Okay Dave, we have the storms here also in Atlanta. 60 mph winds in Chicago and Gary. I opened up on my cell phone. Do you have enough for the BBB?
    Some cell services are down also but I will keep it open. Tornado watch for Chicago and you and I are in the same section so getting the same weather here.

  90. Dave says:

    Due to thunderstorms in our area, and the fact that my ISP is HughesNet satellite, I am being told by FreeConferenceCall that my bandwidth is insufficient to participate online tonight.
    I look forward to \”seeing\” everybody next Thursday night in, hopefully, clearer weather.

  91. Dave says:

    Mar 7, 2019

    Tonight, we discussed:
    Gifts of the Spirit (1Co_12:7-10, 1Co_14:2-25) – are they still active, in whole or in part today?

    Included in our study, we looked at Strong’s and Thayer’s definitions of several of the key terms in the Scriptures, as well as:

    “perfect” [G5046 G5056]; and,

    Concerning 1Co_13:13, we studied:
    Rom_8:24; and,

    For Mar 14, 2019, we will open our meeting with a decision about whether or not to conduct a Memorial Service on April 18, 2019 (the Memorial date published in The Herald), for any and all who cannot attend a Memorial Service personally.

    If we decide to have a Memorial Service, we’ll also create an agenda of meeting discussions for Thursday nights leading up to the Memorial Service, pertaining to Scriptures detailing the events which fulfilled prophecy leading up to Jesus’ Ransom Sacrifice, Resurrection and His Ascension.

    Afterwards, we will commence our discussion of the Fruits of the Spirit (Gal_5:22-23), comparing and contrasting the Fruits with the Gifts of the Spirit discussed Mar 7, 2019,

  92. Dave says:

    On Feb 28, 2019, we started by reviewing last week’s discussion and looked at some additional Scriptures concerning the subject, including:
    Mat_24:23-28; and,

    Then we studied Eze_44:17-21 and its relevance to the Millennial Kingdom, if any.

    We concluded that:

    The final, large collection of messages in Ezekiel (Ezekiel 33:21-48:35) communicates comfort and consolation to the exiles in Babylon following the shock of the destruction of Jerusalem.

    Until Jerusalem had fallen, Ezekiel’s message was predominantly negative, insisting that the city would be destroyed.

    Once news about that event came (Eze_33:21), Jehovah’s message immediately turned to hope:
    * hope for a new leadership (ch. 34),
    * a new spirit (chs. 36, 37)
    * a new victory (chs. 38, 39), and
    * a new temple (chs. 40—48).

    From history we conclude that all of the prophecies in Ezekiel 1-35 have been literally fulfilled but the prophecies in Ezekiel 36-48 are future.

    On Mar 7, 2019, we will consider whether or not gifts of the Spirit, such as those mentioned in 1Co_14:2-25, are still active, in whole or in part.

  93. Dave says:

    On Feb. 21,2019, we had a spirited discussion of:
    Scripturally, is Jesus’ Kingdom heavenly or earthly (Jerusalem)?
    Is Michael and Jesus the same?
    Difference in coming FOR the saints and coming WITH the saints.

    We began with Dan_12:1, with particular attention to the expression:
    “stand up” [H5975]:
    A primitive root; to stand, in various relations (literally and figuratively, intransitively and transitively): – abide (behind), appoint, arise, cease, confirm, continue, dwell, be employed, endure, establish, leave, make, ordain, be [over], place, (be) present (self), raise up, remain, repair, + serve, set (forth, over, -tle, up), (make to, make to be at a, with-) stand (by, fast, firm, still, up), (be at a) stay (up), tarry.
    Total KJV occurrences: 521

    While there was not enough time to discuss all the verses pertaining to this, we focused on:
    Rev_3:21 (compared to Mat_25:31)

    as well as,

    And others.

    We also considered Revelation 14 sevenfold description of the 144,000.

    On Feb. 28, 2019, we are going to consider Eze_44:17-21, and whether or not it relates to the Millennial Kingdom.

    THANKS to all who attended and participated with their insights.

    If you would like to participate in a (mostly) Scriptures-Only study, unencumbered by human filtering of Jehovah’s Word, you are most welcome to join us on Thursday nights.

    All you need is your Bible.

  94. jacqueline says:

    Friends, please join us tonight for a special guest, George Storrs 7 pm CST, 8 pm EST.

  95. jacqueline says:

    Nubby Tope, I had a stroke then pneumonia. 4 more weeks for pneumonia to clear because it came from aspiration into my lungs during a heart exploration with a camera.
    I am a therapist and began neuromuscular therapy while in emergency room and I hummed so my brain wouldn’t forget my voice box. The doctors said never has he seen a patient get better hour by hour normally it is day by day. 37 hours and I was sent home with my paramedic, fire chief, son and another son that flew in. Plus other family drove in from various places and phone calls from some that had stopped speaking to me. I was in only 2 days for the pneumonia, 20 days later. So now I am taking it easy and next week doctors will analyze all tests and began treatment to correct the reason I stoked out. It was an embolism so it originated from somewhere other than the brain.
    One month later my speech is uninpaired and I have no paralysis in my arm or fingers. I did my own therapy since that is my field of training .
    Now, if you mean how am I from the interactions with Peter, I survived that total disregard and disrespect also.
    My personality is to deal swiftly and permanently with situations, file them away and move on. As a Psychologist I encourage my clients to not stay in an abusive situation after they see the person knows they are abusive, because they aren’t going to change. Them we practice techniques to not stall but move on. The sooner you refocus, the outcome will be in your favor.
    In each instance I felt Jehovah and Jesus support. Brothers on this site stepped up to the plate and dealt with Peter for me and I was with my paramedic son when I had the stroke right in front of his eyes! I knew for months something was wrong internally with me but couldn’t pinpoint it so I
    said it was stress.
    Group therapy was what my therapy team said I needed, interaction and feedback on my behavior and to fight depression that sometimes follow a stroke. I showed them what I do and the BBB interaction and they gave it a thumbs ups that I had this already in play.
    Again help from Our Father!
    After next week I will know what caused my vascular accident and treatment for it.
    Thanks for your concern.

  96. Nubby Tope says:

    Hi Jacqueline,

    You OK? Great to hear Bro. Peter on that link; I really like his manner of delivery, and he explained things so well.

  97. jacqueline says:

    You go to Google and say I want to get news every time “Jehovah witnesses” is in the news all over the globe. It will appear in your email. That is how I knew in 2000 that the witnesses had applied for property in Warwick when no one believed me. It picked up the public hearing from that small town who published their meeting with the witnesses for a permit. You can set up a Google alert for anything or anybody. I know when a person mentions me on the web. Google,” How do I set up Google alert”? I set mine up decades ago so forgot.

  98. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    Hi Sr Jacqueline What is the Google Jehovah’s Witnesses alert?

  99. jacqueline says:

    So Dave when we are in school and the teacher does roll call and you say PRESENT, it means your body is in the seat. You aren’t on your way or in the hallway or out of her sight but actually there. Your Presence is felt with your active participation in the class but you must be there to have your Presence felt. That is just one point I got from tonight and every meeting we get so much from just considering these things ourselves from the Bible. Thanks for all the research you do evry week Dave!
    And the added blessing tonight of Doug our visitor! What a joy it was to have him. I hope he will consider hosting his meet-up group on the BBB. He uplifted us to see him come on and maybe we can peep in and join the conversation with the group.
    Some on here who have the “GOOGLE JEHOVAH WITNESS alert” will see his meet up group notice from google alert for Thursday.
    It is 12:02 midnite and the last conversation just ended so I guess I will go to sleep now.

  100. Dave says:

    On Feb 14, 2019, we discussed the difference between parousia, and the coming.
    What does Parousia [G3952 G3918 G3844 G1510] really mean?

    We looked into the historical examples of uses and meanings of parousia.

    The word is used 24 times in the New Testament.

    Of these, six uses refer to the coming of individuals: Stephanas, Fortunatus, and Achaicus (1Co_16:17),
    Titus (2Co_7:6-7)
    the physical \”presence\” of Paul himself (2Co_10:10, Php_1:26, Php_2:12), and
    a seventh use to the \”coming of the lawless one\” (2Th_2:9).

    The other seventeen uses refer to the Second Coming of Christ, except the one case in which it refers to the coming of the \”Day of God\” (2Pe_3:12).

    The word \”parousia\” is mainly used in Christian theology to refer to the second coming of Christ.

    The word parousia is found in the following verses:
    Mat_24:3, Mat_24:27, Mat_24:37, Mat_24:39;
    1Th_2:19; 1Th_3:13; 1Th_4:15; 1Th_5:23;
    2Th_2:1, 2Th_2:8-9;
    2Pe_1:16; 2Pe_3:4, 2Pe_3:12;

    We also looked at some Greek-English words that may be related to, and can be distinguished from, parousia.

    We then contrsted \”parousia\” with leusis [G1660 G2064] which means \”coming\”.

    For next meeting, 2/21/2019, we will attempt to answer:
    Scripturally, is Jesus\’ Kingdom heavenly or earthly (Jerusalem)?
    Starting with Dan_12:1

  101. jacqueline says:

    Dave, I am so glad I was able to come on tonight although I was late. The discussion was uplifting and I am just not good with the Greek words but you are spot on.
    We appreciate the hard work you put in with going back to the original language. Theos and the subordinate other Greek words for God cause me to wonder why it isn’t used when speaking about Jesus.
    I forgot the word but you made me think. I do accept that Jesus is indeed a God and I am happy for all things and power has been placed in his hand now until he bows low and turns it over to His Father, Jehovah in a restored paradise state.
    My health is improving and I hope to be on next week.

  102. Dave says:

    Tonight, 1/31/2019, we delved into Exodus 4:16 and supporting Scriptures using Interlinear and Strong’s .

    Then we began looking into John 1:1, especially the Greek word, theos G2316, and the uneven application of Greek grammar, as well as translators’ inconsistent application of definite and indefinite articles in their translations.

    We further chatted about how this inconsistent application contributed to the confusion and the error being taught by various religious organizations.

    We then revisited Rev 22:6 and discussed its significance and harmony with the other three Scriptures in Bible containing the phrase “faithful and true”.

    For next meeting, 2/7/2019, we are going to research the Scriptural basis of the parousia – what does it really mean and contrast it with the “coming”.

    If time permits, we will also research the Scriptural basis of the rapture.

  103. jacqueline says:

    Ha ha Dave, thanks for the feedback! When I was told I needed group therapy to really put my vocal cords and mind to the test. I asked what do you do in group? She said you talk, read out loud and explain what you read.
    Sounded like our Thursday night study to me! I told her we don’t use a book to tell us what the scripture says but discuss it among ourselves. I said we do have some help however, and that is God’s Spirit.
    She said that intenseness was better than what their group offered.
    So thanks so much to you for trusting me to read out loud. My relative noticed and I got to explain our just using the Bible.
    Thanks for the feedback and to all for ignoring my Yankee doodle routine. Lol
    PS: now to find proof that the white horse of the four in Revelation is not Christ. That should wipe my mind clean!

  104. David (Thursday night) says:

    Sr. Jacqueline:
    You sounded TERRIFIC.
    Had I not known of your situation, by listening to you I would not have guessed that anything was wrong.
    Also, your comments were spot on, so there was no way to tell from the comments that anything was amiss.
    The fact that you broke out in a chorus of ‘Yankee Doodle Dandy” in the middle of the meeting has nothing to do with anything.
    I’m sure nobody will recollect that by next Thursday night.
    And if they do, no one will mention it.
    But I am nominating you for a Tony.

  105. Dave says:

    On our January 24, 2019, meeting we studied the phrase:


    Rev 21:5
    `Write, because these words are true [G228 G227 G1 G2990] and stedfast [G4103 G3982];’
    and the other 3 Scriptures where this exact phrase appears:
    Rev 3:14
    Rev 19:11
    Rev 22:6

    We also agreed that “the Amen [G281 H543 H539]” expresses the unchangeable truth of His promises; also “the faithful the true witness,” the truth of His revelations as to the heavenly things which He has seen and testifies.
    and looked into the
    the name “Witness” [G3140 G3144]” (1Ti_6:13).

    For our next meeting, January 31, 2019, we will be exploring the translators’ “God” and “a god” compared to the literal and interlinear versions;
    in particular, Exodus 4:16 and John 1:1-3.

  106. jacqueline says:

    Dave, discussing how God works in our lives and good fellowship among brothers has a healing effect on the body. I feel refreshed after coming on last night. I was able to listen most of the time but had many opportunities to express myself. This is what I told my speech therapist, that I already had group therapy twice a week with my Christian fellows. She said it accounts for my rapid speech recovery because I formulated thoughts to tell my friends in the group and my family. I texted and talked although I knew they might not understand me.
    So I need feedback. Did I sound garbled? For Henry and Jeff also to give me feedback.
    I am looking forward to being able to read next week if I am not in treatment. They take my heart monitor off tomorrow in their search to find out why. All of my blood work and scans are unremarkable and no risk factors at all so I can really just tell them, I think it is plain old stress.
    We discussed ways for me to deal with some of the stresses that go with exiting yet another religious idea or rather the same Concept that I never really got away from. Now I see I need to just stick with the Bible and leave books that outline the explanation of the entire Bible alone.

  107. Dave says:

    For Thursday night, Jan 17, 2019, meeting:

    Rather than focusing on Sister Jacqueline’s topic of the Third Temple this week, I suggest we focus on Rev 21:4-5 – – most particularly on the last phrase in Rev 21:5:

    Revelation 21:4-5 MLV

    (4) And he will wipe-away every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, anymore. The first things have passed away.

    (5) And he who is sitting upon the throne said, Behold, I am making* all things new. And he says to me, Write, because these words are faithful and true.
    (emphasis on last SIX words)

  108. jacqueline says:

    Good morning Dave, in addition to one on one speech therapy for my stroke I need to do group discussion. So I will be in attendance Thursday for Bible reading and discussion. My speech therapist was glad I was already a part of a discussion group and says that is all I need. So Jehovah, Jesus,Holy Spirit, Bible and my brothers, the ingredients for overcoming an illness and a prescription for success.
    I can’t leave out my tremendous family support, they came through with moral support as well as physically traveling to help! Thank God for that! It was worth a stroke to see our family come together in a crisis. I always help everyone and they remembered Jesus made families to fight the great break up in Eden.
    My stroke was the part of the brain that specifically affects word formation and sending to my right fingers. Not cognitive or anything else. I began my own therapy within 30 minutes on my arm so the brain would not forget it. You only have three hours. I will write an article about it as part of my therapy. My doctor says share it and explain that there is something you can do to help yourself.
    I am no longer paralyzed and I can move, control and write now plus hold objects without dropping them. I can now form words without stuttering. My sister came up right away to continue Occupational Therapy.
    Stroke was Last Wednesday. Now just waiting for the brain swelling to totally heal.
    ALL THIS PRAIS FOR MY REVOVERY GOES TO JEHOVAH GOD. All good gifts comes from the devil. GOD SAID NO!

  109. jacqueline says:

    Canaanite languages, group of Northern Central or Northwestern Semitic languages including Hebrew, Moabite, Phoenician, and Punic. They were spoken in ancient times in Palestine, on the coast of Syria, and in scattered colonies elsewhere around the Mediterranean

  110. jacqueline says:

    Wow Ted I wish I could talk on this subject. I am on a 7hr drive and with JW 👪 so I can’t comment until maybe next week but I will read.
    I just listened to Ezekial and Now I will do all of Isaiah to see if I can glean the entire picture. Ezekial goes along with Isaiah.
    I have long felt this is a future prophecy and not one of the hundreds of pyramids that dart the earth. But let’s see if we can unravel the mystery with search engines. I will just be reading so as not to offend my family.
    So far I notice the “phrase in this day” and all of them is after Egypt, Israel, etc are worshiping together.
    I just completed my 9 hour drive. Family love is abounding!

    Take care.❤

  111. Greg says:

    Hi Ted,
    I’d love to explore this with you and others. To answer your question, though, for the time being, I only have LOTS of my own questions:
    “At that time…” <--What time? What's the context? Isaiah is writing about something future. "The burden of..." <--Also translated as: "The prophecy regarding..." "The message about..." "The future of..." Why are the "burdens" of so many other kingdoms mentioned in chapters 13, 15, 17, 19, 21 (3 different kingdoms in this chapter alone), 22, 23, 30? Are these burdens separate occasions, or are they fulfilled in order? If so, what order? OR are these burdens maybe different facets of something big, something that can be seen from different perspectives? What, if any, is the significance is the geographical relationship of Egypt, Assyria, and Israel? What about the military significance of each? What about the "wealth" of each? What about Historical significances? Are there any noteworthy historical fulfillments? Do these provide a pattern for something greater? Why and when will Egyptian rise against Egyptian? Which are the 5 cities in Egypt that speak the Language of Canaan? What is the Language of Canaan that is being referred to? Through which countries and regions and scenery will the Highway run? I could write so many more questions. I might mention that I did find Matthew Henry's commentary on these chapters to also inspire lots more ideas and questions. I'll let you know more as I slowly pick my way through my own questions.

  112. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    Does anyone have a thought on this Scripture? It seems that Assyria and Egypt will eventually unite with Israel in service to God.
    Isa 19: 19 In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the Lord at its border. 20 It will be a sign and witness to the Lord Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the Lord because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them. 21 So the Lord will make himself known to the Egyptians, and in that day they will acknowledge the Lord. They will worship with sacrifices and grain offerings; they will make vows to the Lord and keep them. 22 The Lord will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the Lord, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them.

    23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. 24 In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing[b] on the earth. 25 The Lord Almighty will bless them, saying, “Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance.”

  113. jacqueline says:

    Dave, Jeff tried to get on fojw Saturday might meeting but couldn’t. So he emailed one of the Philippines brother to see if they were meeting. He said yes but they are studying the Bible and doing a verse by verse of the book of Judges. So encouraging to us that others are realizing we need to add just the Bible to our menu also because we have been book studies of one concept all our lives some of us.
    The things in the news today demand we take a fresh look at the Bible with the revealer of secrets help. This is a copy of my facebook post to encourage:
    “Many are in need during this cold winter and depressed, often we overlook Jesus. We can go straight (one on one) to God now thru Jesus. Talk to him your Father, He will help.

    John 16:23, 24New Living Translation (NLT)
    “23 At that time you won’t need to ask me for anything. I tell you the truth, you will ask the Father directly, and he will grant your request because you use my name. 24 You haven’t done this before. Ask, using my name, and you will receive, and you will have abundant joy.”

  114. jacqueline says:

    Dave, today I mentioned something about Trump, a witness asked if I heard about the troops being taken out of Syria. They said Jehovah is about to act and they mentioned this as a sign. I spoke and talked about the nation’s could line up against Israel. I saw the expressions change as they don’t know about natural Israel. But at least someone is talking about this within their org.
    Note to self: do not mention Jesus as the one coming. I was corrected sternly with No it is Jehovah! There was actually a strong dislike in the voice for mentioning him. I want peace this month so I will just listen and not mention Jesus to witnesses during this holiday season.
    I am enjoying family now and in the coming week I will be with another set of witness and non witness mix.
    Enjoy your family I realize the coming of Christ will bring special Joy to you and your wife as you have 3 darling children to welcome back in the resurrection. May God keep you folded in his loving arms. Hug your wife for me please for I think of both of you and your broken 💕.

  115. jacqueline says:

    Dave, in the early morning hours I find communion with God is powerful at dusk for me.
    I was considering 1Thessalonians 5. It seems to go along with Luke 21 and Matt24 and Mark 13 on not setting a date when we see revolutions and wars. He even says don’t go out after those coming in his name saying he is there. He will come with the clouds and all will see him at some point. I will look for more scriptures that deals specifically with that beginning of distress.
    This is just so encouraging to not filter through what I have learned. I have found for me to understand and not grieve the Spirit, I have to throw the baby out with the bathwater to let God get in. See you guys tonight.

  116. jacqueline says:

    Dave and others. Joel chapter 3; Ezekial 38 and Daniel 11 all play into what we see today with Russia.
    They paraded by sea around the waters during Israel holy days to scare them. Although recent brothers say they don’t see the United States and current governments, I see Korea saying “they are strong when they are really weak.” The nations in turmoil over this nuclear babble talk. And America and Israel aren’t on the best of terms while Russia has been drawn into the trouble with the middle east.
    Joel 3 seems to be in fulfillment of last days. Just my take got to look further.
    Luke 21:28 gives us comfort as it seems our deliverance will be near.
    Horror amidst all the building and prosperity and life can change in the blink of an eye.

  117. jacqueline says:

    Wow, Ted thanks you don’t realize we were discussing this today before I read this and it is right on the money of what we concluded. The Bible is clear believers and followers of Christ can expect to be where he is. It isn’t just a few anointed ones that are chosen and the rest of the Church is to submit to these ones.
    I believe the Bride class is different and are chosen from where the Bible actually says she is chosen.
    And all other Nations, Tribes, and Tongues make up the Church.

  118. jacqueline says:

    Greg, I listened to “fire” and got some additional talking points on how to discuss that there is no concept of a burning hell or torment of humans. Thanks for posting. I will listen to the next one tonight.

  119. Greg says:

    I wanted to share a discourse I really enjoyed. What I really liked about it was that it was thought-provoking and scripturally presented. I’m not suggesting it is the definitive final say on every idea presented, but it sure gave me some scriptural support for things I already believe and appreciate from my own scriptural studies.

    Ideas discussed include:
    Is Hell a literal place of fiery torment?
    Where is the place of torment located? In the earth, or in heaven, in the presence of God and Jesus?
    What does Ezekiel 16 say as to the future of Sodom?
    How does one understand Jesus Parable about the rich man and Lazarus?
    What about the wheat and the tares?

    Listen to David Rice explore these and other questions here:
    Go to:
    and scroll down to: 910 Fire
    or directly download the mp3 here:

  120. jacqueline says:

    Ted, thanks for this strong scripture. I love Jesus account in John it is his last words to us as to all we have to do to get to God.
    I feel confident in studying alone and in our small group and with anyone now, with just the Bible. I will read others thoughts in books but not devote myself to a study of any book for hours weekly but the Bible.
    It isn’t healthy to devote so much time to one man’s ideas on the Bible. Holy Spirit can let my heart and mind discern what Jesus says.
    John is worth memorizing, Jesus is laying it out here.

  121. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    I was reading John 14 this morning. It makes things so clear!

    Jesus tells us in vs 6 : Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

    Here he makes it clear that he is the only mediator between God and man, not an organization.

    12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
    So if we truly believe in him we will show by our actions that we are true followers of Christ and will manifest this in our lives.
    15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
    23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
    25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

    Yes if we truly believe in Christ and faithfully follow his footsteps we have the wonderful gift of Holy Spirit as an advocate. The Advocate will teach us and remind us of Jesus words, helping us to understand his word. While we always want to consider others views the bottom line is that we allow Gods spirit to direct us. Books are wonderful and many brothers and sisters have expressed much insight into the Scriptures. We never want to ignore the opinions of others. We can learn much from the insight of other Bible Scholars. Pastor Russell has much fine Bible based truth and fine advice, but neither he nor any man or organization has been commissioned by Christ to be our ADVOCATE! Only the Bible should be our final authority! It is only by being taught by Holy Spirit under the direction of our King and mediator Christ Jesus that we gain salvation and the promise as true Christians.
    What is that promise? Notice Jesus Words:

    14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

    There is no ambiguity here! All true followers of Jesus have the wonderful hope and promise that if we are truly faithful, we will be with him when he returns! There are many fine points in this chapter. I could not cover them all. But I found it very encouraging and thought I would share what I personally got of this wonderful message.

  122. Greg says:

    I recall reading the Bible cover to cover with fresh eyes, and without the fear and terror I had been programmed with, and then I recall seeing so many things come clear to me—#1 thing: Ransom for ALL—and wondering to myself, surely I can’t be the only one who’s discovered these insights and truths. In the years since then, my questions have grown faster than my answer base, but my understanding has deepened and been so enriched that I often forget how far I’ve come, and how many things I had to sort out/overturn/abandon/etc… to get here. It does make it seem lonely sometimes, and I fully appreciate Jesus’ words to his disciples, “I have so many more things I’d love to tell you, but you’ve already got enough to try to assimilate. I won’t burden you with them at this time. Soon, though…”

  123. jacqueline says:

    Dave when you asked one week; “who wants to just study the Bible only with me, without filtering it thru long-held beliefs or any dogma?”
    As radical as the idea was (yes we have been doing book studies of one man’s thoughts only) I said I would, then Henry, then Jeff and the ragtag team was started.
    There were attempts to derail us but we have persevered and seen God say to do this!
    We were still on BigBlueButton 45mins after you hung up and then more conversation by phone until 1 o’clock am. The incredible insight into Matt 24: and Luke 21 noticing how Luke is all about the actual events of to 70CE. The four apostles asked about the end of the world and now instead of trying to harmonize we realize these are different.
    So I ask, why is it that no religion we have been associated with realized this?

  124. Greg says:

    I am eager to join on Thursdays. Meantime, in reliving the discussion on our Ex-JW comfort meeting tonight, I was reminded of something that I wondered about that would have fit in with the discussion from the 29th. Jacqueline suggested I leave it here as a question to stimulate curiosity in the minds of others.
    What happened to all the golden temple decorations, artifacts, and utensils after the destruction of Jerusalem? Where are they now, today?
    I have a pretty good idea, but wondered if anyone else had any idea.

  125. jacqueline says:

    Dave, I really like these notes and summary. Now we will be able to focus our research on certain differences and see what is going on here.
    As a witness, we couldn’t get the proper understanding of any future happenings in the
    Olivet prophecies because the witnesses teach “replacement theology”. Since the Jews will accept Christ as we have now learned, we have to take a fresh look at these prophecies.
    Dave and others, I am just loving digging in the Bible in the 21st century with the internet as help in getting at knowledge fast.

    Daniel 12:4
    ASV “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

    AMP “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the scroll until the end of time. Many will go back and forth and search anxiously [through the scroll], and knowledge [of the purpose of God as revealed by His prophets] will [greatly] increase.”

  126. Marjo says:

    I’m looking forward to be in this one too next week.

  127. Dave says:

    UK is 5 hours ahead of me.
    We start at 8:00 PM ET, which is 1:00 AM UK.
    Better grab a nap.
    We’d be very happy to “see” you next Thursday or any Thursday.

  128. jacqueline says:

    We had a powerful study tonight. Renee and Una had prayers that calmed our hearts.
    Dave, Kent, and Jeff, brothers in Christ, the conversations were tough but we all benefited. Welcome our other brother listening in.
    The computer network specialist in California, Josh, that helped us with connection suggestions, thank you so much. All of this made our study tonight a blessing. We will meet again on Thursday.

  129. jacqueline says: Nubby try this with your exact city. Put Chicago as other city. CST.
    It would be so nice if you could come on tonight. Thanks for commenting.

  130. Nubby Tope says:

    I’m in UK so what British time can I join in?

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