Berean Bible Fellowship – with Dave

Berean Bible Study Group- Welcome


Dave will use any media you have available. WELCOME!

Have a listen to Dave’s talk on our podcast: Why a Berean Bible “Fellowship”

Scripture notes




David H. from Tennessee is moderator     

Every Thursday at 7 PM (CST) 8 pm (EST) 5 pm (MT) you are welcome to join our Bible discussions using just the Scriptures. We welcome your thoughts and research.

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Please scroll down to the comment section for information on the current week's study material. Thank you.


Acts 17:10-11 KJV

(10)  And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.

(11)  These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

While we certainly claim NO increased nobility, we practice receiving:

“the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

We WELCOME all who are seriously wanting to study scriptural matters without relying on a single person, group or an organization of human filters.

We believe in and practice :

In scriptural essentials – UNITY

In interpretation – LIBERTY

In ALL things – CHARITY

Summaries and updates will be posted below after each study. Thank you


At our 11/29/2018 meeting, we were pleased to begin with a mixture of reviewing Second Death AND a testimony meeting on that subject.
Then, we transitioned to our current study dealing with Matthew 24 and Luke 21.
We had a discussion of Solomon's and Herod's Temples - matching Scripture with historical confirmations.
Sister Jacqueline gave us an overview of the Chapters' differences, and the discussion moved forward from there.
For our next meeting, Thursday, 12/6/18, we'll prepare by each of us reading the entirety of Matthew 24, followed by the entirety of Luke 21, so we can discuss these as chapters and as individual verses.
The attached picture is where I learned to use charts.
So, how does fit with your understanding? 
Am I in the ballpark? Or wayyyyy out in left field?
Mount of Olives                       

Nighttime (Luk_21:37)          

Disciples (Mat_24:3)


Daytime (Luk_21:37)

People (Luk_20:45 and Luk_21:5)

When THESE THINGS -(Temple Destruction)

and Sign of THY COMING

And END of the world Mat_24:3


(Temple Destruction)


Mat_24:4-8 = BEGINNING

of sorrows

Mat_24:9 = THEN

shall they deliver you up

to be afflicted and shall kill

you and ye shall be hated of all nations.


BEFORE Luk_21:8-11

they will lay their hands

on you and persecute you

Jesus answered questions

About destruction of

Temple earlier in day

(in Luke) so now He  

proceeds to anwer other

questions about His coming

and the end times.

Chronological Oder


THEN Luk_21:8-11

THEN Luk_21:25-28

Mat_24:9 & Mat_24:14 mention "all the world" and "all the nations" which seems to indicate Jesus was speaking of a worldwide end times event.

Worldwide language is used throughout all of Matthew 24.

Luke does not write about worrldwide persecution until begins writing of what takes place after the signs in the sun, moon and stars and then universal language is used twice.


Mat_24:10 - Jesus speaks of many falling away in the end times Luke does not metion


Mat_24:12-13- Love of many will wax cold, but he that endures will be saved Luke does not metion


By 70 AD, Luke's gospel was just beginning to spread. It wouldn't make sense to say that love would grow cold unless he was speaking of end times events

Mat_24:12 - Iniquity shall abound Luke does not metion


Mat_24:3 - they ask about the end; in Mat_24:14 Jesus says, "and then the end will come". Luk_21:9 - the end is not by and by.

The end of the age is not a first-century event.

Mat_24:21 - Tribulation Luke does not metion


It's only in the futurewhen the events of Matthew 24 unfold that the great tribulation occurs.

Mat_24:15 - spoken of by Daniel.

Dan_9:27Dan_11:31, and Dan_12:11

Luke does not metion


Matthew does not mention armies surrounding Jerusalem Luk_21:20 - first century attack on Jerusalem
Matthew does not mention this because Matthew deals with worldwide persecution Luk_21:23 - Great distress

Luk_19:41-44 - did not accept Jesus and did not recognize Messiah

Matthew does not mention this - Matthew deals with worldwide persecution and by the time Matthew's events happen, the Luke account will already be ancient history. Luk_21:24 - led captive into all nations
Mat_24:29 - these signs (sun, moon and stars)  take place IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of THOSE days The time period is left wide open. Nothing is said to take place "immediately


Jerusalem will be trampled until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled

There is an unknown amount of time between the triple sign (sun, moon, stars) mentioned in Luk_21:25

Why would Luke jump from talking about the destruction of the Temple to the end of the system?

What Luke does is easier to understand when we think of it in terms of dual prophecy.

Dual Prophecies consist of two predictions:

type - a short term event

antitype - a long term event.

Could Luke 21 (Jerusalem's destruction) be the type, and,

Matthew 24 (great tribulation) be the antitype?

It appears that early Christians did not understand type and antitype and expected Jesus to return in 70 AD.

When He failed to appear, some were very disappointed and disillusioned.

Some lost faith and stopped believing.

THAT could be another type.

It's antitype might be all those falling away after Bro Russell's 1914 prediction, and the JW 1975 prediction. 

Failure to understand the duality of prophecy also played a role in the Jews' rejection of Jesus. 

Sometimes a prophecy is partially fulfilled:


Jesus read from Isa_61:1-2,  but stopped short mid-sentence Luk_4:19-20

The portion of the prophecy that Jesus read was fulfilled in type during His earthly ministry, but the last part of Isa_61:2, the antitype, will not be fulfilled until the end times. 

Yet not all prophecies are dual. Jehovah's prophecies about ancient city states like Tyre, Sidon, Ashkelon and others do not appear to have an antitype. 

Generally, it seems dual prophecies are mostly those which deal directly with Israel or the Church.

On 11/15/2018 we completed our study on Second Death, by harmonizing Rev_2:11, Rev_20:6, Rev_20:13-14 and Rev_21:8.
Using Scriptures we concluded:
We probably don't have to worry about Second Death;
Second Death is Millennial Kingdom timing.
Similar to Daniel, Revelation is telling the future in advance in pretty deep detail;
Jesus never claimed to have the keys to Second Death;
Chronology of Revelation - the verse are basically in chronological order, but refer back to bring the student up to date on topics;
Jehovah does not deal with mankind directly right now; we must go through Jesus;
Jehovah uses Second Death to rid the world of evil, evil people, evil entities; and,
NO human or organization can condemn any other human to Second Death.

Also, Brother Henry presented a discussion concerning the Scriptural meanings of Fire and Brimstone.

On 11/22/2018 we will not meet.

On 11/29/2018, we will begin our study to harmonize Matthew 24 and Luke 21.

On 12/20/2018, we began a controversial study concerning prophecy and what is currently happening in Israel, "to explain the significance of the secretive ceremony performed by the Sanhedrin near the walls of the Old City Monday, the final day of Hanukkah, to consecrate a stone altar for the future Third Temple.”
The best approach to gaining an understanding of this is to click on:
and to study and ponder at everything on that page, and to seek to harmonize these things with the Scriptures, if possible.
The question – does this event mean anything out of the ordinary?
In a spirited discussion, we delved into this and the prophecies possibly relating to this event.
As a result of our study, we agreed on "homework" to be completed before our next study.
Due to family get-togethers, we are not meeting again until Jan. 10, 2019.
Between now and our next meeting again on Jan. 10, 2019, our "homework" consists of the following:
Study all the content on the ISRAEL – WHAT’S HAPPENING NOW page on the website.
Prepare to Scripturally discuss:
When the Temple veil was rent,
Mar_15:37-38 (Mat_27:50-51) (Luk_23:45)
what effect, if any, did that have on:
1. the relationship of the Holy of Holies to the outside world;
2. the relationship humans have with Jehovah;
3. the concept of the abomination of desolation
(Mat_24:15-21 (CONTEXT: Mat 24:15-28);
Dan_9:27 (CONTEXT: Dan 9:24-27);
Dan_11:31 (CONTEXT: Dan 11:1-45,); and
Dan_12:11 (CONTEXT: Dan 12:1-13))
Seek to determine if either of Ezekiel's prophecies concerning Gog and Magog (Eze_38:1-23 and Eze_39:1-29) or John's (Rev_20:8 (CONTEXT: Rev_20:7-10)) have a role in this  ?
In addition to #3, above, what roles, if any,  do the King of the North and the South (Dan_11:1-40) have in this?
Can we Scripturally answer these QUESTIONS:
Does the current consecrating of "a stone altar for the future Third Temple.”" constitute an "abomination" or the "abomination of desolation"?
Is a THIRD Temple Scriptural?
In Mat_24:15, is it possible or likely that Jesus was talking about a future Temple - not the 70 AD Temple -  without specifying a THIRD Temple in the end times?
On 12/6/2018, we began our study with in-depth discussions of Mark 3:28-30 and Matthew 12:31-32, particularly as they pertain to second death.
It was particularly rewarding that in spite of differing opinions about the meanings of these Scriptures (and other Scriptures relating to these), our group maintained the principles of Liberty in interpretation and Charity in all things.
Moving on from second death, we began our discussion of Matthew 24; Luke 21 and Mark 13 (and related Scriptures), using the chart on this page (from last week).
We studied as far as Matthew 24:29 and Luke 21:25
Our verse-by-verse discussion revealed several things that we had been taught in error previously, and many items that we had found confusing and contradictory under our previous tutelage look clearer (Proverbs 4:18; Ecclesiastes 11:7-8; Luke 11:33-36).
On 12/13/2018, we will review our previous study and continue studying from where we left off last meeting.
All wishing to study Scripture without human or organizational filters are invited to join us.




176 Responses to Berean Bible Fellowship – with Dave

  1. jacqueline says:

    I just have to add this video link for those that need to see
    the POWER OF YAHWEH today as regards Israel just like in the Bible.
    Zechariah chapters 11-12 Chuck Smith gives us the narrative in such a way as to make your heart flutter.

    There are many of the youtube footage, this is just one but look at the others for more detail on one name
    This is 1973 war:

    I remember both of these wars. My mom always felt Jehovah had not lied to Abraham as we were taught. and as a result, she kept up with news on TV about Israel.
    What a legacy she left me so I easily accepted that Israel is still and always will be Jehovah’s wife.
    The argument on this issue in 2004 with my book study conductor when we studied Israel was my first step printed by the watchtower society to exist the religion. The Isaiah book lead me out of darkness, and into a life search for what the actual Bible reveals about Jehovah..

  2. Jacqueline says:

    Last night we didn’t get far but, there was sufficient evidence for me to conclude there is a difference in the sleep inactive state of Adamic death than the second death of Rev 20: after the Great Throne Judgement.

    I try to envision death and hades as being inside there with them. (Not Adamic death) but death following them there. The beast is there, the devil, the false prophet, and all of the ones not wanting Jehovah and Jesus to rule over them.

    If there is this assortment of guys in there together and there is a consciousness of being there, I would say that is indeed HELL.

    To be cut off without God Almighty JEHOVAH, Jesus and His Holy Spirit are UNTHINKABLE!
    A world without GOD, NO! They are the only ones keeping everything in check.

    I cringe at the thought of a world now without police, government, and the army.
    Rev 20: 9 ” A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.”

    Now to get some insight on who exactly is this beast and this mark?

    I pray YAHWEH will reveal for sure in time for us not to go near them.

  3. jacqueline says:

    Tonight, we have an interesting study on the subject of “Torment” as in the Lake of fire.
    Is there consciousness? Is it literal fire? If so what type of fire? What really is fire, is it just what we define it as?

    Some questions to prepare an answer.
    Hope to see you tonight. Peace

  4. jacqueline says:

    Br. Dave, I read Zechariah as you suggested and chapters 13 – 14 caught my attention.

    I wondered how Israel could be in idolatry today and these are some thoughts on it.

    The wailing wall could be an idol and a stumbling block for the Jews and the many visitors from all over the world.
    Tourists visit the “holy places”, although there are no little statues like the Catholic Church, there is much emphasis on the holiness of the land instead of the Holiness of their God.

    It has gotten to be very commercial like in Jesus day and they have married the world.

    This was just such an eye-opening scripture also in chapter 14 about future events to befall Israel during their and our Great Tribulation.

    These are Jehovah’s people and He will bless and save them but hopefully, more of our Jewish brothers will read and accept Christ so they may be the ones spared during the trials on Israel.

    Last night was such an enjoyable study night and thank you so much for co-ordinating our little group.
    God Bless

  5. jacqueline says:

    Heads up. Tonight Thursday Jeff has presented the question: Are resurrected Humans Angels?

    I suggested we consider that from the group tonight.
    Thanks Jacqueline

    • Ted R says:

      My take is this:
      The word angel means messenger. Certainly God has used his prophets as messengers, so in this sense a human can be considered an angel.
      To me however, what I see in plain Scripture is that Angels are separate spirit beings.
      The Resurrection Body
      1 Corinthians 15:35 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
      There are various types of Angelic beings described in Scripture. Each has it\’s own responsibility. Michael is an avenging Angel, ( Jesus is not Michael) controlling all the armies of our Lord. Gabriel is a messenger. We have Seraphim, along with others. The Angels assigned to guard the way to Eden, those who caused the destruction of Gods enemies, and others.
      Are resurected humans Angels? I do not believe so! When we are resurrected, yes we are given glorified spirit bodies. But we will still be human! We do not miraculously become Angels. I see nothing in Scripture that would support this. The Scripture does say that we will become \”like\” Angels, (Matthew 22) having no need to procreate since we will have eternal life. The Scripture does not say we will become Angels! Revelation shows those resurrected ones as separate from the Angels. Notice, too, what Paul says in 1 Thessalonians 1:
      15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
      No where here does it say we are to become Angels! Any attempt to make such an argument is based purely on speculation and twisting of Scripture
      Follow Pauls council to Timothy:
      2 Timothy 2:14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
      23 Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.
      As imperfect humans it is impossible for us to have an accurate, complete understanding of the spirit realm. That is why there is such disagreement among Christians regarding the true nature of God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. What happens when we die! Do we just go to sleep? Is there a burning Hell? Is there an immortal soul? The truth is that there are good Scriptural arguments on each side of these issues. But this is not what gives us salvation. Our salvation comes from our truly believing in the Lord Jesus and his sacrifice for us. Belief in the Gospel delivered to us:
      1 Corinthians 15:15 Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2 By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
      3 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance[a]: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas,[b] and then to the Twelve.

      Belief in faith in the Lord Jesus is what saves!
      Notice the similarity here to the Apostles Creed
      I believe in God the Father almighty;
      and in Christ Jesus His only Son, our Lord,
      Who was born from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary,
      Who under Pontius Pilate was crucified and buried,
      on the third day rose again from the dead,
      ascended into heaven,
      sits at the right hand of the Father,
      whence he will come to judge the living and the dead;
      and in the Holy Spirit,
      the holy Church,
      the remission of sins,
      the resurrection of the flesh,
      [life everlasting].

      *The word \”catholic\” in the Apostles\’ Creed refers not to the Roman Catholic Church, but to the universal church of the Lord Jesus Christ.

      • jacqueline says:

        TedR, thanks so much for your input on this. I will send a copy of the Thursday night meeting out to the group to hear the discussion after I speak with Dave to get his opinion.
        We so miss hearing your voice TedR. You pulled up a lot of scriptures.
        Last night was so uplifting. As we proceeded various brothers were able to pull up more nad more scriptures to arrive at an answer. We are amazed that we never have to search watchtowers literature to get their answer. We get the Bible’s answer, it is there in black and white. It allows the Holy Spirit to work within us.
        So nice to be in a personal relationship with our Father, Jehovah, and our Savior Jesus and come together as a group to discuss and encourage each other as times get tough.

  6. Ted R says:

    Its interesting that so many exJW websites are having “problems” all of a sudden! The Society has a very complete IT Department and is currently engaging in “Theocratic Warfare” to try to put a stop to the information being presented by the “Aostates” and more and more meetings and literature is warning against these sites. John Cedars has recently been accused of “hate speech” by the Society, Lawsuits are being filed against some channels and websites, and many websites have been hacked. Even Winston Gilliams Watchtower Examination has had “problems” al of a sudden. Six Screens has been bombarded with infiltrators trying to disrupt the meetings. Coincidence? Is all of this being organized through Bethel? Too many incidences of such disruptions make me feel that the Organization is waging a counter-attack trying to minimize the damage. They are running scared because so many are leaving. Just a thought!

  7. Lee Anthony says:

    There seems to be an issue with the site, I posted a link from Dave’s comments to the podcast and that plays as well as everything on my site and the ones on berean bible play fine but none of the podcasts on askjacqueline will play. I tried pulling one down and replacing it with new one and it still does nothing. Just FYI

    • jacqueline says:

      Thank you so much. Aren’t you glad we took evasive action.
      Someone is attacking the site so later today after I take care of business I have to get in touch with the host so they can solve this.

      • Lee Anthony says:

        Hopefully things get fixed, perhaps a time for a complete overhaul/change to user names and passwords? I know there are plugins that are for the admin sign on that will send a person not authorized to a different place when they try to come in the back without a recognized device. Something I recently learned about.

        Also an addition to a comment I made on call Thursday, I couldn’t remember the scripture when I mentioned the Jews having been entrusted with the Oracles of God, this is Romans 3:1-2.

  8. Bro Dave says:

    PLEASE NOTE: We are moving to in the near future.



    \”tormented\” – discussion upcoming in the near future.

    Our study of Revelation: this is a Revelation from YHWH to Yeshua (who did not know it), then Yeshua to an angel, then the angel to John.
    This demonstrates distinctness between YHWH and Yeshua.
    Many people cling to the Trinity doctrine in spite of the overwhelming Scriptural proof against it.

    Yeshua, the only begotten G3439 son of YHWH.
    Joh_1:14, Joh_1:18, Joh_3:16, Joh_3:18, 1Jn_4:9

    Did that creation, or bursting forth, cause any diminishing of YHWH\’s Power at that moment?

    When we humans see things, they were created.

    But the creative process is different from the process of giving birth.

    The Logos, pre-Yeshua, is the exact representation of YHWH\’s essence.

    Referring to Yeshua.

    begotten G1080

    begotten G3439

    Then, we began our study with Rev_21:5.

    Revelation 21:5
    that sat G2521 G2596. or, sitteth. Rev_4:2; Rev_4:9; Rev_5:1; Rev_7:10; Rev_20:11, Psa_47:8, Isa_6:1.
    Behold. Isa_42:9; Isa_43:19; Isa_64:4, 1Co_2:9, 2Co_5:17.
    I make G4160 . Rev_1:8.
    all G3956 things (supplied) new G2537 .
    Gr. kainos (S# G2537, Mar_2:22). Not recent, but changed from the old (Greek \”kaina,\” not \”nea\”).
    It is the word for unused, not worn out, rather than neos G3501 , which means recently come into existence).
    Rev_21:1, Psa_102:25-26; Psa_104:30, Ecc_1:9, Isa_43:18; Isa_43:19; Isa_65:17; Isa_66:22, Eze_36:26, Mat_19:28, Mar_2:22, Luk_5:38, Rom_8:18-25, Gal_6:15, 2Co_5:17, Eph_1:10, Col_3:10.

    Making everything new – we want to see this.
    Like Job, we offer up prayers for our families so we can all be together again.

    QUESTION: Is this is the “restitution G605 G600 of all things” to which Peter refers in Act_3:21, and the \”deliverance G1659 of the creation G2937 from the bondage of corruption\” which Paul anticipates in Rom_8:21?
    Time of universal restoration\” Margin NOTE: \”Time of refreshment\”
    Goes along with \”all things new\”.
    The way things were in the very beginning.
    We all aspire to become sons of YHWH; we are all sons of Adam right now.
    YHWH will liberate the creation from that bondage.

    Those reborn through faith in Christ bring newness to those persons\’ lives, but it is only in the eternal state that YHWH will:
    make all things G3956 new G2537 . (KJV)
    NOTE that the word \”things\” is supplied, NOT part of the original Greek text.
    In the original Greek, this phrase reads:
    \”I make all G3956 new G2537 .\”

    OR, using the Strong\’s definition
    \”I make all G3956 fresh G2537 .\”

    OR, using the Greek Interlinear
    \”fresh G2537 all G3956 I make .\”

    QUESTION: Assuming the correct translation might be, \”Behold, fresh all I make\”, does that translation alter anyone\’s perception or understanding of this passage?
    Supports and is supported by Rom_8:21
    Freshing can mean return it to original state.
    Can also mean reducing everything to elements and then reforming it.

    QUESTION: If \”fresh\” is the correct definition of G2537, does that definition alter anyone\’s perception or understanding of \”a fresh heaven and a fresh earth\” in Rev_21:1?
    Does not seem to change the meaning.
    A \”fresh\” start is a \”new\” start.
    Going to get \”fresh\” apples can mean getting \”new\” apples.
    Maybe so, apples are decaying – like our earth – and we need \”fresh\” or \”new\”.

    said G3004 . or, saith. Rev_19:9; Rev_22:6.
    Write G1125 . See on Rev_1:11; Rev_1:19; Rev_2:1; Rev_2:8; Rev_2:12; Rev_2:18; Rev_3:1; Rev_3:7; Rev_3:14; Rev_14:13; Rev_19:9, Hab_2:2.
    these words G3056 . Rev_19:9; Rev_22:6, Psa_119:89; Psa_119:90, Mat_24:35; 1Pe_1:23; 1Pe_1:25.
    true G228 G227 and G2532 .
    Rev_3:7; Rev_3:14; Rev_19:11; Rev_22:6, Dan_11:2, 2Co_1:20.
    faithful G4103 G3982 . Rev_22:6, Psa_119:90, 1Ti_1:15.

    QUESTION – What might have been the purpose of including this last sentence in this verse?

    Rev_21:4 has so much in it, that it can be difficult to accept.
    Also, questions – Will my family be with me? Will I remember my family.
    This verse says, \”Trust me – it\’s going to be right.\”

    1Ki_17:24, 2Ki_20:19, Psa_33:4, Isa_39:8, Joh_17:17, Col_1:5, 1Th_2:13

    These words are founded in truth, and they are worthy to be believed.
    In Rev_19:9, the last phrase, \”These are the true sayings of God. -KJV\”, confirms all by a solemn declaration. The importance of what is here said; the importance of having it fixed in the mind, amid the trials of life and the scenes of persecution through which the Bride was to pass, makes this solemn declaration proper.
    The idea seems to be, that in all times of persecution – in every dark hour of despondency – the Bride, as such, and every individual member of the Bride class, should receive YHWH\’s Word as a solemn truth never to be doubted, that Christ will finally prevail, and that all persecution and sorrow now will be followed by unimaginable immense joy and happiness in heaven and on earth.

    We\’ll resume our study of Rev_21:1-8 with Rev_21:6.

  9. Bro Dave says:



    A word-for-word Greek to English Interlinear translation of the verses we\’re studying (minus the Strong\’s numbers and the original Greek words).






    What about when human theories, science and discoveries seems to contradict the Bible?
    Several of our Fellowship expressed thoughts, historical examples and Scriptures (Ex: Gen_3:1-5; 2Co_11:13-14; 2Pe_3:5; Isa_29:16) concerning this.

    Then, we began our study with Rev_21:4.

    Revelation 21:4
    God G2316 shall wipe away G1813 . Rev_7:17, Psa_23:2, Isa_25:8, Jer_31:16; Jer_31:17, Mat_5:4, Act_3:19, 2Co_5:2.
    all G3956 tears G1144 . Or, every tear, without exception. Psa_30:5; Psa_116:8; Psa_126:5-6, Isa_65:19, Mat_8:12, Luk_6:21, Act_20:37, 2Ti_1:4.
    no G3756 more G2089 death G2288 G2348. Rev_20:14; Rev_22:3, 2Ki_2:21, Psa_17:15, Isa_25:8; Isa_65:20, Hos_13:14, Luk_20:36, Joh_11:25, Rom_5:17; Rom_7:24; Rom_8:23, 1Co_15:24-26; 1Co_15:54-58, 2Ti_1:10, Heb_2:14; Heb_2:15.
    neither sorrow G3997 G3958. Or, mourning. Rev_18:8-9; Rev_18:11; Rev_18:19, 2Sa_7:10, 1Ch_17:9, Job_14:1, Psa_30:11, Isa_30:19; Isa_35:10; Isa_51:11; Isa_60:20; Isa_61:3; Isa_65:18; Isa_65:19, Jer_31:12; Jer_31:13, Mat_5:4; Mat_6:20, Joh_16:20; Joh_16:22, 1Th_4:13; 1Th_4:18, 2Th_1:7, Jas_4:9, Jud_1:24.
    nor crying G2906 G2896 . Rev_2:10; Rev_13:10; Rev_13:17, Exo_3:7; Exo_3:9, Est_4:2-3, Psa_30:11, Isa_65:19.
    any more G2089 pain G4192 G3993 . Rev_7:16; Rev_16:10-11, Isa_33:24, Eze_28:24, Rom_8:18-23.
    the former things G4413 . or, first. The present age; emphatic in Greek . Rev_21:1; Rev_21:22, Rev_20:11, Psa_144:4, Isa_25:7-8; Isa_35:10; Isa_65:17, Jer_31:16, Mat_24:35; 1Co_7:31; 1Co_15:4-5, 2Co_4:17; 2Co_4:18; 2Co_6:17, 2Pe_3:10, 1Jn_2:17.
    are passed away G565 . Rev_21:1, Psa_57:1, Eze_28:24; Eze_37:23, Zep_3:15, Zec_14:11, Mat_6:13, Luk_16:17, Mat_24:35; Heb_4:9.

    Continuing theme that everything is going to be new.
    If there\’s \”first things\”, we know there\’s going to be additional things.

    What is time frame for this?
    AFTER the Millennium, because in Rev_20:2; Rev_20:7; Rev_20:10; Rev_20:14, satan has been abyssed, loosed, then destroyed, and after 1Co_15:24-26.
    So, Scripturally, death is still part of human existence until AFTER the Millennium has concluded.

    What condition concerning humans HAS to have been met for these events to occur?
    Rev_21:2 – Bride, not yet married, but ready to be wed.
    Coming down \”from God\” – Bride has the Name of Son and the Father. This seems to be the 144,000.
    See Mat_22:1-14

    Also, for earthly humans:
    Rev_21:3 –
    Humans must have reached perfection – no longer under the curse of sin – in order for YHWH to tabernacle (dwell) with them.
    Humans must have bodies to enable them to dwell with YHWH. 1Jn_3:2

    Wipe away every tear fulfills the promises in Rev_7:17 and Isa_25:8.
    Not a tear shall ever be shed then. How different will that be from the condition now – for who now in our Fellowship has never agonized and cried?

    No more death G2288 G2348 goes far beyond the earlier promise of Rev_7:16, which promises freedom from hunger, thirst, and scorching heat.
    Not a grave shall ever be dug!
    How different from now, where death is so common;
    where it spares no one;
    where our best friends die;
    where the wise, the good, the useful, the lovely die;
    where fathers, mothers, wives, husbands, sons, daughters, all die;
    where we habitually feel that we must die.
    Nothing is more common than death.
    YHWH\’s Promise is that we will never see death again; nor we will never ourselves die after this point in time.
    We will never follow a relative or friend to the tomb, nor fear that an absent relative or friend is dead. The slow funeral procession will never again be witnessed; nor will the earth ever be disturbed to furnish a grave. (1Co_15:55)

    Death was defeated already by Jesus\’ resurrection.

    Neither sorrow – G3997 G3958 – denotes sorrow, mourning or grief of any kind;
    sorrow for the loss of property or friends;
    sorrow for disappointment, persecution, or care;
    sorrow over our sins, or sorrow that we love YHWH so little, and serve him so unfaithfully;
    sorrow that we are sick, or that we must die.
    How innumerable are the sources of sorrow here; how constant is it today!
    Since the fall of man there has not been a day, an hour, a moment, in which this has not been a sorrowful world; there has not been a nation, a tribe – a city or a village – not even a single family, where there has not been grief.
    I believe that there has been no individual who has been always perfectly happy.
    No one that I know rises in the morning with any certainty that he may not end the day in grief; no one lies down at night with any assurance that it may not be a night of sorrow.
    How different it will be when from this point on there will be no sorrow!

    Nor crying – κG2906 G2896 ” This word denotes a cry, an outcry, as in giving a public notice; a cry in a tumult – a clamor, Act_23:9; and then a cry of sorrow, or wailing.
    This seems to be its meaning here, and it refers to all the outbursts of grief arising from affliction, from oppression, from violence.
    It seems to me that as none of these causes of wailing will be known in the future state, all such wailing will cease.
    This, too, will make our future existence vastly different from our condition now; for what a change would it produce on the earth if the cry of grief were never to be heard again!

    Neither shall there be any more pain G4192 G3993 – There will be no sickness, and no calamity; and there will be no mental sorrow arising from remorse, from disappointment, or from the evil conduct of friends. And what a change would this produce – for how full of pain is the world now!
    How many lie on beds of languishing, that is, being feeble; losing strength; pining; withering; fading;
    how many are suffering under incurable diseases;
    how many are undergoing severe surgical operations;
    how many are pained by the loss of property or friends, or subjected to acuter anguish by the misconduct of those who are loved!
    How different would this world be, if all pain were to cease forever; how different, therefore, must the state of the future be from the present!

    Former (first) things have passed away echoes both v. Rev_21:1 and 2Co_5:17.

    This is perhaps the most hopeful (for humans) Scripture in the Bible.
    Where governments attempt to care for food and shelter – this Promise takes care of the PERSONAL.
    Only YHWH can take care of all these things for His children.


    We\’ll begin our study with Revelation 21:5, then continue with Revelation 21:6-8, time permitting.

  10. Bro Dave says:


    We started our meeting with a COVID discussion.


    We continued our study with Rev_21:1-8, starting with
    Revelation 21:3
    a great G3173 voice G5456 . Rev_10:4; Rev_10:8; Rev_12:10; Rev_16:17; Rev_19:1; Rev_19:5, Isa_45:19.
    out of G1537 heaven G3772 . Rev_14:13, Psa_73:25.
    saying. Gen_15:1.
    the tabernacle G4633 .
    QUESTION: Whose voice, YHWH or one of His angels?
    If YHWH\’s, why change from first to third person?
    Ex: Eze_37:27; Lev_26:11-12, 2Sa_7:6, 2Ch_6:2; Jer_24:7; Jer_30:22
    Could be an angel.
    Could be John simply recording the fact that in his vision he heard YHWH\’s Voice, hence reporting it in third person.

    Other verses: Act_15:16,
    Rev_21:7, Rev_7:15; Rev_11:19; Rev_13:6; Rev_15:5, Exo_25:9; Exo_26:1; Exo_38:21; Exo_40:18; Exo_40:34, 1Ki_8:27, 2Ch_6:18, Psa_15:1; Psa_46:4; Psa_84:1; Psa_114:2, Isa_4:5; Isa_12:6, Jer_31:33; Jer_32:38, Eze_37:27; Eze_41:1; Eze_43:7; Eze_48:8, Zec_8:8, Joh_1:14; Joh_14:23; Joh_17:24, Act_15:16, 2Co_6:16, Heb_8:2; Heb_9:11.

    is with men. Psa_101:6, Isa_2:3; Isa_4:5, Jer_14:9, Mat_1:23, 1Co_15:28, Zec_8:3;
    will dwell G4637 . Rev_7:15; Exo_25:8-9; Exo_29:45; 1Ki_6:11-13; Psa_68:16; Isa_57:15, Eze_48:35, Zep_3:15, Zec_2:10.
    Rev_12:12; Rev_13:6, Exo_29:45; Exo_29:46, Num_5:3; Num_9:16; Num_18:20; Num_35:34, 1Ki_9:3-9, 1Ch_17:5-6, Psa_68:18; Psa_91:1; Psa_135:21, Eze_37:23-28; Dan_2:11, Joe_3:21, Zec_2:11; Zec_8:8, Mat_18:20, Joh_1:14, 2Co_6:16, 1Ti_6:16.
    with them. Rev_22:3, Exo_29:46, Psa_68:18, Isa_8:8, Isa_7:14 with Mat_1:23, Eze_48:35, Joh_14:3; Joh_14:23, 1Co_1:9; 1Co_3:9, Eph_2:19-22, 1Th_4:17, 1Jn_1:3.
    they shall be. Rev_21:7, Gen_17:7-8, Psa_37:29; Psa_65:4, Jer_31:33; Jer_32:38, Zec_8:8; Zec_13:9, Mat_13:43, 2Co_6:18, Heb_8:10; Heb_11:16.
    his G848 people G2992 . or, a people.
    Note the expansion of this provision of the Abrahamic Covenant throughout Scripture:
    the original provision is given at Gen_17:7;
    its first expansion is found at Exo_6:7 promising Abraham’s descendants will be His people;
    the provision is further expanded at Exo_29:45 to promise that YHWH will dwell among the children of Israel;
    these promises and provisions are combined and appear together at Rev_21:3, Rev_21:24. Jer_30:22, Hos_2:23, Eph_2:11-13, 1Pe_2:10.
    God G2316 himself G848 . Zec_8:8, Rom_5:2.
    shall be with them. Gen_3:8; Gen_5:22-24; Gen_17:1, Psa_17:15; Psa_37:29, Isa_57:15, Eze_48:35, Joe_2:27, Mat_1:23, Mar_3:14, Joh_1:14.
    their G848 God G2316. Rev_21:7 , Rev_7:15, Gen_17:7; Gen_28:13, Exo_6:7; Exo_19:5-6; Exo_29:45, Lev_26:12, 1Ch_17:24, Psa_73:26, Isa_25:9, Jer_30:22, Eze_11:20; Eze_14:11; Eze_34:24; Eze_34:30; Eze_36:28; Eze_37:23; Eze_37:27, Hos_2:23, Zec_8:8; Zec_13:9, Joh_20:17, 2Co_6:16; 2Co_6:18, Heb_8:10.

    No matter the translation, those we read tonight, they all seem to say that YHWH is coming down and not that people are going up.

    QUESTION: Is this on the earth, or, if New Jerusalem is somewhere above the earth, therein?
    Discusses YHWH\’s Home being with them and His Sancturary will be with His People forever.

    The Scriptures seem to be full of the tabernacle had symbolizing YHWH’s dwelling among His people (Exo_25:8-9; Exo_29:45; 1Ki_6:12-13);
    YHWH had promised to dwellG4637 withG3326 His people as part of His Covenant (Lev_26:11-12), especially in the sinless world to come (Eze_37:24-28; Eze_43:7-10; Zec_2:11).

    This Scripture seems clear, YHWH\’s dwelling will be:
    withG3326 men,G444

    Could it be, that those with the Spiritual Body, will dwell with YHWH in New Jerusalem; those with a fleshly body will dwell with YHWH on earth (as he did with Adam)?

    New Jerusalem consists of 144000 as Christ\’s Bride. verse 2.
    Verses 3-5 refer to YHWH.

    QUESTION: How does this relate to the First Advent, when Jesus “became flesh and dwelt among us” (Joh_1:14)?
    Shows a pattern of how YHWH and Yeshua love their people (First, YHWH, then Christ; then Christ again, and finally YHWH).
    Christ likens His Return to the Jewish wedding, with His Bride taken from humans.
    In Jewish wedding, son returned with father to prepare dwelling.
    Father decided when it was time to go back and get the bride.

    QUESTION: Or is this, Rev_7:15, reserved for the \”great multitude (KJV)\” in Rev_7:9-17?
    Two people here: one is YHWH, the other is Christ shepherding His flock.
    This does not seem to be the same event as Rev_21:3

    Another promise was given to Israel in Eze_37:21-28.
    QUESTION: Are all these promises fulfilled from just the one tabernacle in Rev_21:3?
    Some people claim Ezekiel is talking about same thing.
    BUT, we are actually seeing Jewish people being regathered into Israel.
    Yet, they have not gotten all their land, so the prophecy has not yet been fulfilled, but it seems to be in the process of being fulfilled.
    Are we seeing that beginning with Israel\’s sending medical supplies to Beirut to provide aid and comfort to their sworn enemies in their time of tribulation after the port explosion?


    We\’ll resume our study of Rev_21:1-8 with Rev_21:4.

  11. Bro Dave says:


    We continued our study with Rev_21:1-8, starting with Rev_21:3.

    \”Tabernacle\” G4633 can also be used to mean \”sitting with\” or \”visiting with\”.

    From there, we took a hard left onto \”Shekhinah\” Blvd,

    Shekhinah – Jewish text – instead of tabernacle and to cause to dwell (extra-Scriptural word).
    The light in the tabernacle indicating when YHWH was in the tabernacle. (referred to in Exo_40:34-35; Isa_60:2; Mat_17:5; Rom_9:4, etc.)

    From Wikipedia:
    The Shekhinah (Biblical Hebrew: שכינה‎ šekīnah; also Romanized Shekina(h), Schechina(h), Shechina(h)) is the English transliteration of a Hebrew word meaning \”dwelling\” or \”settling\” and denotes the dwelling or settling of the divine presence of God.
    – to dwell G3485

    From our Witness brethren:

    *** w05 8/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***
    In postbiblical Aramaic, this light was called Shechinah (shekhi·nah′), a word meaning “that which dwells” or “the dwelling.” This term does not occur in the Bible but is found in Aramaic translations of the Hebrew Scriptures, also known as the Targums.

    *** w91 11/1 p. 22 Part 1—Did Jesus and His Disciples Teach the Trinity Doctrine? ***
    “Exegetes and theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity . . . Although the Hebrew Bible depicts God as the father of Israel and employs personifications of God such as Word (davar), Spirit (ruah), Wisdom (hokhmah), and Presence (shekhinah), it would go beyond the intention and spirit of the Old Testament to correlate these notions with later trinitarian doctrine.

    *** it-2 pp. 1097-1098 Throne ***
    Besides his kingly identity with the royal line of Judah, Jehovah was enthroned in Israel in another sense as well. As Jeremiah expressed it: “There is the glorious throne on high from the start; it is the place of our sanctuary.” (Jer 17:12) Jehovah was spoken of as “sitting upon the cherubs” that were on the propitiatory cover of the ark of the testimony in the sanctuary. (Ex 25:22; 1Sa 4:4) The divine presence was symbolized by a cloud that reportedly produced a miraculous light that later Jewish writers called the Shekhi·nah′. (Le 16:2) While Jeremiah foretold the absence of the ark of the covenant when Israel would be restored from Babylon, this would not mean that Jehovah no longer purposed to be enthroned at his center of worship. As He said: “In that time they will call Jerusalem the throne of Jehovah.” (Jer 3:16, 17) Ezekiel’s restoration prophecies are in agreement, for in his vision of Jehovah’s temple in which no ark of the covenant was seen, he was told: “Son of man, this [temple] is the place of my throne.”—Eze 43:7.

    Shekhinah appears in the Messianic OJB (Orthodox Jewish Bible) translation (Exo_29:46; Isa_57:15; Rev_21:11), and the CJB (Complete Jewish Bible) translation (19 occurrences in 18 verses – ALL in the Greek Scriptures; ZERO times in the Hebrew Scriptures).


    We\’ll continue our study with Rev_21:1-8, starting with Rev_21:3.

  12. Bro Dave says:



    Our study on Thursday, 7/24/2020 ended with a lively discussion of Luk_17:21.

    After re-reading my notes, I realize that the nature of the study and discussion is under-explained, and that more research needs to be completed.

    Keeping in mind 2Ti_2:15, I’ll attempt to correct those failings here.

    (Luk 17:21 KJV) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is withinG1787 G1722 you.

    From G1722; inside (adverb or noun): – within.
    Total KJV occurrences: 2
    within, 2
    Mat_23:26, Luk_17:21

    Many translations use “within”, las does the KJV.

    Other translations use the expression “in your midst”, or words to that effect.

    While there is no Strong’s reference for the “in your midst” translation for this verse, a Strong’s reference can be found in:

    (Mat 18:20 KJV) For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in G1722 the midst G3319 G3326 of them G846.

    From G3326; middle (as adjective or [neuter] noun): – among, X before them, between, + forth, mid [-day, -night], midst, way.
    Total KJV occurrences: 61
    midst, 41
    Mat_10:16, Mat_14:24, Mat_18:2, Mat_18:20, Mar_6:47, Mar_7:31, Mar_9:36, Mar_14:60, Luk_2:46, Luk_4:30, Luk_4:35, Luk_5:19, Luk_6:8, Luk_17:11, Luk_21:21, Luk_22:55, Luk_23:45, Luk_24:36, Joh_8:3, Joh_8:9, Joh_8:59, Joh_20:18-19 (2), Joh_20:26, Act_1:15, Act_1:18, Act_2:22, Act_4:7, Act_17:22, Act_27:21, Php_2:15, Rev_1:12-13 (2), Rev_2:1, Rev_2:7, Rev_6:6 (4), Rev_7:17, Rev_22:2
    among, 12
    Mat_13:25, Mat_13:49, Luk_8:7, Luk_10:3, Luk_22:27, Luk_22:55, Act_17:33, Act_23:10, 1Co_5:2, 2Co_6:17, 1Th_2:7, Heb_5:1
    midnight, 2
    Mat_25:6, Act_27:27
    way, 2
    Col_2:14, 2Th_2:7
    before, 1
    between, 1
    forth, 1
    midday, 1

    We need to recollect that KJV is the reference source for Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance.

    A concordance in the back of a Bible has a limited number of words – an Exhaustive Concordance, such as Strong’s, contains every word in the Bible. Each translation needs a different concordance.

    I use Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance.

    In my hands (actually, on my computer), the combination of the text of the King James Version with the Greek and Hebrew Lexicons is the most complete, easy-to-use, and understandable concordance for studying the original languages of the Bible.

    Or as close as I can get since I have very little knowledge of Biblical Greek and Hebrew.

    Dr. James Strong and a team of scholars spent more than thirty-five years preparing the Strong’s numbering system which has become the standard for identifying words with links to the original Greek and Hebrew words.

    With the numbering system tied to a particular word in English, average students, since its publishing in 1890, has easily studied the meanings of the Greek and Hebrew words.

    The question becomes, which is a more correct translation of Paul’s intended meaning, “within” or “in your midst”?

    If you’d like to write an opinion about this one verse, I welcome it.

    I freely acknowledge that no translation is perfect.

    Different translations have different strengths.

    And weaknesses.

    Many times translators will express the meaning of a scripture according to their doctrinal BIASES G4346.

    That makes it possible that those verses are a mistranslation.

    If a mistranslation, then it delivers ERROR H7944 H7952 and an inaccurate understanding of YHWH’s word.

    If you wish to go on a rant about errors in KJV generally, please focus on our question only and confine your comment to this one verse.

    It was mentioned in our study that there have been reports of errors in the KJV about this very verse.

    By Google-ing “errors in Luke 17:21”, I have found several websites that have arguments for “within” being an erroneous translation, but when I continue my research and Google the names of the individuals who wrote these opinions, I was underwhelmed with their doctrinal impartiality or scholarship, or both.

    And this is where we get back into BIAS G4346 and ERROR H7944 H7952 , as I mentioned in the podcast at the top of this page.

    Personally, “I have no dog in this hunt”, other than a desire to find the Truth, or as close as I can get to it.

    In fairness to both the “within” or “in your midst” arguments, I’ll do my best to present both sides, starting with:

    “in your midst”

    First, the translators of the KJV were common men who worked hard at producing a common translation.

    Clearly these were very gifted and brilliant men, yet they were working according to the normal principles of translation work. They consulted other previous English translations and wherever possible, they would use that wording. Hence, the translators’ accomplishments should NOT be elevated to inspired status.

    Second, there is no evidence that the translators of the KJV were inspired by YHWH.

    If the 1611 KJV was inspired, then we should expect there to be no errors in the text of the 1611 version of the KJV. However, a comparison of the original 1611 KJV and today’s modern KJV reveals many changes and corrections that have taken place since the original KJV’s publication.

    It has been said that there is “an old book” out there somewhere written by the original translators themselves, discussing the errors that they, themselves, recognized in their translation.

    As of this writing, I have been unable to identify the title of that book and would be very thankful if someone could give me that information.

    On the other hand, “within”:

    I feel that I do need to make a point about the KJV.

    While I have several issues with the translation as a whole, I reference KJV because of its universality.

    Let’s face it, most of us had our very first experience with the Bible in a KJV.

    I believe that more Western, non-Catholic Christians are familiar with KJV than any other translation.

    And while individuals critique the translation, I must ask this question: What principles, other than THEIR OWN BIASES, are adhered to by those who produce these lists of errors?

    I think it’s important that since none of the translators of KJV can Tweet, Snapchat, Facebook or contest any of the accusations of their errors, that understanding just a little history is important:

    KJV had 47 active translators.

    On January 18, 1604, King James I summoned a collection of scholars and churchman to attend a conference at Hampton Court, where he was based to avoid the plague that had taken hold of London.

    One notable attendee on behalf of the Bishops was Richard Bancroft, Bishop of London and future Archbishop of Canterbury, who presided over the conference.

    From this a committee, of 47 translators and revisers (although 54 were originally approved), made up of the most learned men in the nation was commissioned to complete the translation, and were divided into 6 committees, called “companies”.

    Three companies were responsible for the Old Testament;
    Two for the New Testament; and,
    One for the Apocrypha, the books that the Protestant Christian Church considered useful but not divinely inspired.

    The New Testament was translated from Greek, the Old Testament from Hebrew and Aramaic, and the Apocrypha from Greek and Latin.

    King James and Richard Bancroft drew up very specific rules for the translators (see below), which included the process of exchanging drafts which were then subject to close scrutiny and the exclusion of the marginal notes.’

    The companies worked on their assigned parts separately and the drafts produced by each company were then compared and revised for harmony with each other.

    These scholars examined every word to determine the most accurate and felicitous turns of phrase before sending their work to colleagues for confirmation. The process, which one historian called a progenitor to modern “peer-review,” lasted seven years.

    The elaborate set of rules mentioned above was contrived to curb individual proclivities and to ensure the translation’s scholarly and nonpartisan character.

    Here are the 15 Principles required by King James and Richard Bancroft:
    1. The ordinary Bible read in the Church, commonly called the Bishops Bible, to be followed, and as little altered as the Truth of the original will permit.
    2. The names of the Prophets, and the Holy Writers, with the other Names of the Text, to be retained, as nigh as may be, accordingly as they were vulgarly used.
    3. The Old Ecclesiastical Words to be kept, viz. the Word Church not to be translated Congregation &c.
    4. When a Word hath divers Significations, that to be kept which hath been most commonly used by the most of the Ancient Fathers, being agreeable to the Propriety of the Place, and the Analogy of the Faith.
    5. The Division of the Chapters to be altered, either not at all, or as little as may be, if Necessity so require.
    6. No Marginal Notes at all to be affixed, but only for the explanation of the Hebrew or Greek Words, which cannot without some circumlocution, so briefly and fitly be expressed in the Text.
    7. Such Quotations of Places to be marginally set down as shall serve for the fit Reference of one Scripture to another.
    8. Every particular Man of each Company, to take the same Chapter or Chapters, and having translated or amended them severally by himself, where he thinketh good, all to meet together, confer what they have done, and agree for their Parts what shall stand.
    9. As any one Company hath dispatched any one Book in this Manner they shall send it to the rest, to be considered of seriously and judiciously, for His Majesty is very careful in this Point.
    10. If any Company, upon the Review of the Book so sent, doubt or differ upon any Place, to send them Word thereof; note the Place, and withal send the Reasons, to which if they consent not, the Difference to be compounded at the general Meeting, which is to be of the chief Persons of each Company, at the end of the Work.
    11. When any Place of special Obscurity is doubted of, Letters to be directed by Authority, to send to any Learned Man in the Land, for his Judgement of such a Place.
    12. Letters to be sent from every Bishop to the rest of his Clergy, admonishing them of this Translation in hand; and to move and charge as many skilful in the Tongues; and having taken pains in that kind, to send his particular Observations to the Company, either at Westminster, Cambridge, or Oxford.
    13. The Directors in each Company, to be the Deans of Westminster, and Chester for that Place; and the King’s Professors in the Hebrew or Greek in either University.
    14. These translations to be used when they agree better with the Text than the Bishops Bible: Tyndale’s, Matthew’s, Coverdale’s, Whitchurch’s, Geneva.
    15. Besides the said Directors before mentioned, three or four of the most Ancient and Grave Divines, in either of the Universities, not employed in Translating, to be assigned by the vice-Chancellor, upon Conference with the rest of the Heads, to be
    Overseers of the Translations as well Hebrew as Greek, for the better observation of the 4th Rule above specified.

    Translation rules 1, 6, and 14 are interesting.

    Rule #1 mandated that their translation use the Bishop’s Bible as a base text whenever possible. This was likely because the Bishop’s translation was the official Bible of the Church. However, Tyndale’s translation ended up being far more influential, accounting for 4/5 (80%) of the KJV New Testament.

    Rule #6 mandated no study notes in the margins of the new translation. The Geneva Bible (which was the most popular English translation of the time) had many marginal notations, some of which King James read as challenges to his royal authority. This may have been the main motivation for a new translation. Thus, the KJV translation was limited from study notes.

    Translation rule #14 gives further evidence for the fact that the intention was for the KJV translation to be more of a revision of existing English translations than a new translation. The translators utilized the existing English texts where possible.

    By 1608 the various sections were completed and in 1610 a meeting was held to discuss and agree the translation at the Stationers Hall in the City of London and the King James Bible was published by Robert Barker, the King’s Printer, in 1611.

    How can the Kingdom of God be “within”?

    (Rom 14:13-14 KJV) Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother’s way.
    (14) I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.


    (Rom 14:16-19 KJV) Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
    ===>(17) For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.<===
    (18) For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
    (19) Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.

    I pray this fairly addresses both side of our discussion.

  13. Bro Dave says:


    We continued our study with Rev_21:1-8, starting with Rev_21:2.

    Revelation 21:2
    I. Rev_1:1; Rev_1:4; Rev_1:9.
    saw (perceived-CLV) G1492
    the holy G40 city G4172 . Rev_21:10; Rev_21:27, Rev_3:12; Rev_11:2; Rev_20:9; Rev_22:19, Neh_11:1; Neh_11:18, Psa_15:1; Psa_46:4; Psa_48:1-3; Psa_68:16; Psa_84:1; Psa_87:3; Psa_107:7, Isa_1:21; Isa_48:2; Isa_52:1; Isa_65:11, Jer_19:8; Jer_31:23, Eze_43:7, Dan_9:20, Zec_8:3, Mat_4:5; Mat_5:35; Mat_27:53, Gal_4:26, Heb_11:10; Heb_12:22; Heb_13:14.
    new. Gr. kainos (S# G2537, Mar_2:22), new in quality or freshness, not in respect to time or age.
    Jerusalem G2419 H3389 . Rev_3:12.
    As “a city on a hill” which “cannot be hid;” (Mat_5:14). This heavenly city “shall be established in the tops of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills, and all nations shall flow unto it.” (Isa_2:2)
    coming down G2597 . Rev_21:10, Rev_3:12; Rev_10:1, Gal_4:25-26, Heb_11:10.
    The Father, YHWH, lovingly sending a Bride for His Son, Yesua.
    out of G1537 heaven G3772 . Php_3:20, Heb_12:22.
    prepared. Joh_14:2; Rev_8:6; Rev_9:7; Rev_9:15; Rev_12:6; Rev_16:12; Rev_19:7, Jer_33:2, Eze_16:10, Mat_25:1, Joh_14:3.
    as G5613 a bride G3565 Rev_21:9, Rev_18:23, Rev_19:7; Rev_19:8; Rev_22:17, Psa_45:9-15, Son_2:16; Son_4:7; Son_4:9; Son_4:11; Son_6:3-4, Isa_49:18; Isa_52:1; Isa_54:5; Isa_61:10; Isa_62:4-5, Jer_2:32, Hos_2:16; Hos_2:19-20, Mat_9:15, Joh_3:29, 2Co_11:2, Eph_5:25-27; Eph_5:30-32, 1Pe_3:3.
    This is essentially the imagery of Rev_19:7-8, where Christ’s Church are prepared for “the marriage … of the Lamb” (Rev_19:9).
    adorned G2885 . Rev_21:19, Rev_19:8.
    for her husband G435 . Son_2:10; Son_2:14, Isa_54:5.
    This refers again to Christ, the Lamb (v. Rev_21:9), but the bride is the New Jerusalem, according to vv. Rev_21:9-10.
    In other words, Christ’s bride (v. Rev_21:9) is the redeemed inhabitants of the holy city (vv. Rev_21:3-7, Rev_21:24-27

    QUESTION: Does new Jerusalem’s descent to new earth mark the fulfillment of that petition of the Lord’s prayer which says, “Thy Kingdom come.” (Mat_6:10)

    QUESTION: Is it important that new Jerusalem is never said to land on the earth? Is it possible that it hovers or floats over the new earth?
    It may be too big to land on the new earth.
    It may be like our sun, or a cloud, hovering over us.
    Bible says there are kings of earth who enter into it (Rev_21:24).

    Rev_5:10 – Is this during the 1000 year reign of Christ, Head and Body?
    Rev_5:11-14 – Appears to be when Christ is taking power for Millennium.
    After this, Rev_21:6, and then, what?

    At this time (Rev 21) it seems “kings and priests” are no longer required. Soon, in the next verse (Rev_21:3) , YHWH will be with His people.

    QUESTION – Just exactly who is the Bride, Scripturally?
    Marriage SUPPER, not the marriage itself.
    Discussion of timing relationship of marriage itself to marriage supper.
    No Scripture directly links the Bride and 144,000.
    Lev_21:1-24 – seems to match what 144,000 will be. Considering Yeshua is our High Priest, could this be the direct Scriptural link between Messiah’s Bride being the 144,000.

    QUESTION: Even though the distinction between the church (the Bride, the Lamb’s Wife, (Rev_21:9), Israel (Rev_21:12), and the Gentile nations (Rev_21:24) is maintained throughout this chapter, does the fact that the names of the tribes of Israel are on the gates (Rev_21:12) indicate that redeemed Israel will have access to the city, even if they are not part of the church itself?
    144,000 – 12,000 from 12 tribes of Israel.
    (ASIDE – are these LITERAL Israelites?)
    New Jerusalem, to bless mankind, is here on earth.
    True Israelites are YHWH’s people – they cannot marry Jesus, excluding Apostles and other first-fruits, who became Christians.

    QUESTION: Do these Scriptures harmonize?


    Luk 17:21 –
    within G1787 – KJV; other translations use “in your midst”.
    Is this a KJV translation error?
    How can the Kingdom of God be “within”?
    Rom_14:13-14; Rom_14:16-17.


    We’ll continue our study with Rev_21:1-8, starting with Rev_21:3.

  14. Bro Dave says:


    REVIEW from 7/9/2020

    How is all this (\”new heaven\” and \”new earth\”) going to come about?
    (Isa_64:4, 1Co_2:9)

    We looked at \”earth\” H776 G1093 and its different uses in both the Hebrew and Greek Texts.

    \”earth\” H776 G1093 .

    From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): –    X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world.
    Total KJV Occurrences: 2502

    land, 1509
    earth, 712
    ground, 97
    country, 92
    countries, 48
    lands, 34
    world, 4
    way, 3
    common, 1
    field, 1
    nations, 1

    Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application): – country, earth (-ly), ground, land, world.
    Total KJV Occurrences: 243
    earth, 188
    land, 33
    ground, 18
    country, 2
    earthly, 1
    world, 1

    Other words used for \”earth\”:
    [something on] the face H6440 of the earth H127
    [filled with] earth H6083
    [something made of] earth,H2789

    [in] earth,G1919
    [under the] earth;G2709
    [made of] earth;G3749

    QUESTION: Is the \”earth\” H776 G1093 going to be physically destroyed someday?

    A lot of folks from all faiths, think it will.
    All of us have been told that the world will get worse until YHWH destroys it.

    Is this in harmony with the Scriptures?
    Some say yes; some say no; but what does the Bible really teach about this?

    Does the Scripture contradict itself about this?
    In keeping with Act_17:11, let\’s first agree to receive the Truth with all readiness of mind no matter what we wish the answer to be, and then examine and study what the YHWH\’s Word has to reveal.

    We\’ll start by looking at some verses that seem to indicate that the world will not end.

    NOTE: \”neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.\”
    Gen_9:11-15; Isa_54:9-10; 2Pe_3:6-7
    We have all heard that YHWH destroyed the earth by water one time and He\’ll destroy it by fire the next time.

    Is YHWH\’s promise here to just change His method of destroying everything?

    Is there any comfort in being destroyed by fire instead of water?

    Or is He promising not to destroy the earth again?


    NOTE: for everH5703 and ever:H5769
    Psa_9:18; Psa_21:4; Psa_2:7; 1Ch_16:17

    What decree did YHWH make concerning the establishment of the heaven and the earth that will never pass away?

    Could it be Gen_8:21?

    YHWH said that he would never again destroy every living thing.

    Can we trust YHWH? We are told in Tit_1:2 and Isa_55:11 that YHWH can be trusted, He keeps his word.

    NOTE: for ever.H5769
    Exo_12:24, Psa_89:36; Psa_89:37; Psa_102:25-28; Psa_104:5; Psa_119:90-91, Ecc_1:4.

    If YHWH has established the earth for ever H5769, how could it end?


    NOTE: for ever H5769

    To me it sounds like these verses teach that the earth will last \”for ever H5769 \”.

    But what about those verses that say the world will end?

    Verses like:


    Some say, \”There, see, the world is going to end.\”

    \”Mebbe so\”.

    But before I can go there, I have to deal with the problem of the translation of the Greek word for
    world G165 at the end of the verse. 

    From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): – age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
    Total KJV occurrences: 128

    As you see from Strong\’s, Aion does not mean \”world\” but \”age, dispensation, era, or a period of time.\”

    That being said, it is variously translated as:
    ever, 72
    world, 37
    never, 8
    evermore, 3
    ages, 2
    end, 2
    eternal, 2
    worlds, 2
    course, 1

    Oh, them words……………..
    Oh, them translations……………

    Is it possible for an age to end and yet the earth can still go on?

    Most newer translations of the Bible correct this error in the KJV.

    For the sake of consistency, these Scriptures are taken from the New King James Version (NKJV):

    (Mat 13:40 NKJV) Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age.

    So, it seems to me that Yeshua (Jesus) is here talking about something that will happen at the \”end of the age\” that He was living in.

    A little further down, notice what Yeshua said was to happen at the end of the age:
    (Mat 13:49 NKJV) So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
    (Mat 13:50 NKJV) and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.\”

    Who is taken? The wicked G4190.

    If this was a prediction for our age, would this qualify as some sort of reverse rapture?

    It appears to me that this speaks of the Judgment of Jerusalem in AD 70.

    The \”end\” that Yeshua is talking about was the end of the Jewish age, when the wicked Jews were burned in the destruction of Jerusalem.

    The Scriptures seem to describe the end of the age attached to the destruction of the Jewish temple in:
    (Mat 24:1 NKJV) Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.
    (Mat 24:2 NKJV) And Jesus said to them, \”Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.\”
    (Mat 24:3 NKJV) Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, \”Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?\”

    Their question was two-fold. First they ask, \”when will these things be?\” All three of the synoptic gospels ask, \”when.\”
    Mat_24:3 (NKJV)….\”Tell us, when will these things be?\”….
    Mar_13:4 (NKJV) \”Tell us, when will these things be?\”….
    Luk_21:7 (NKJV) So they asked Him, saying, \”Teacher, but when will these things be?\”…

    Could the \”these things\” refer to the temple\’s destruction in Mat_24:2?

    In Mat_24:1, the disciples point out the temple buildings to Yeshua.

    In Mat_24:2, Yeshua says, \”All these things\’\” shall be destroyed.

    It should be clear that they are asking, \”WHEN will the temple be destroyed? When will our house be left desolate?\”

    After all Yeshua had just said about Judgment on Jerusalem (Mat_23:37-39), and then about not one stone not being left upon another, the disciples\’ response is, \”When?\”

    That makes sense, doesn\’t it?

    The second part of their question is, \”What will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age.\” (Mat_24:3)

    To help us understand the question, we need to compare all three synoptic gospels.
    Mat_24:3 (NKJV)… \” And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?\”
    Mar_13:4 (NKJV) ….\”And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?\”
    Luk_21:7 (NKJV) …. \”And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?\”

    Comparing all three accounts shows us that the disciples considered His \”coming\” and \”the end of the age\” to be identical events with the destruction of the temple.

    Mar_13:4 (NKJV) \”Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?\”

    Notice in the first part of the verse, he says, \”When will these things be?\” — referring to the temples\’ destruction. Then in the second half, he asks, \”What will be the sign when all \’these things\’ will be fulfilled?\” 

    It appears that in the Apostles\’ minds the sign of His coming and the end of age was the same as the \”these things,\” which referred to the destruction of Jerusalem in the year AD 70.

    To them, these are not separate questions that can be divided up into different time-events.

    The disciples seem to have had one thing, and only one thing, on their mind and that was the destruction of the temple. 

    With the destruction of the temple, they connected the coming of Messiah and the end of the age. 

    Their question was, \”When will the end be?\”

    Yeshua gives them the sign of the abomination of desolation (Mat_24:15; Mar_13:14) which Luke interprets as the armies gathered around Jerusalem (Luk_21:20).

    Then Yeshua tells them quite clearly that the end would come in \”This generation\” (Mat_24:34).

    The word \”generation\” G1074 means:
    1. all of the people born and living at about the same time, regarded collectively, or, \”those who are contemporaries or live at the same time.\”
    2. the production of something.

    Thayer defines it as:
    Thayer Definition:
    1) fathered, birth, nativity
    2) that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family
    2a) the several ranks of natural descent, the successive members of a genealogy
    2b) metaphorically a group of men very like each other in endowments, pursuits, character
    2b1) especially in a bad sense, a perverse nation
    3) the whole multitude of men living at the same time
    4) an age (i.e. the time ordinarily occupied be each successive generation), a space of 30 – 33 years
    Part of Speech: noun feminine
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from (a presumed derivative of) G1085

    Remember how some religions have struggled with defining and redefining, then refining again how they interpreted the meaning of generation to fit their own worldly dogma and traditions (of men)?

    It becomes clear that none of those machinations are necessary if we let the Scripture interpret itself, which appears to be:
    The age that was to end was the Jewish age.

    It would end with the destruction of the Jewish temple and the city Jerusalem.

    The end of the age did not happen at the cross or at Pentecost but at the destruction of Jerusalem.

    The world, or the earth, was not going to end but the age of Judaism was.

    The disciples knew that the fall of the temple and the destruction of the city meant the end of the Old Covenant age and the inauguration of a new age.

    But this is leading us into an entirely different discussion topic from \”earth\”, and the topic of the usage of the use of \”age G165\” is for another study.

    Can we harmonize these Scriptures?

    Notice in Rev_20:11, the earth G1093 and heaven G3772 fled away.


    Is all this extremely literal according to the English translated words?

    Example: a new dress can be sown with material from an older dress. The material itself – the core – remains, but is reshaped into a new, more acceptable form.

    Is there a pattern?
    First time, destruction was accomplished by the flood.
    The water probably reshaped the entire land mass.
    When things are changed with fire, it purifies.
    The earth itself would remain, but would be extensively altered and purified by fire.
    The earth has to remain to harmonize with other Scriptures saying earth was created to last forever.

    REVIEW Rev_21:1
    \”heavens\” – generally refers to visible heavens (sun, moon, starts, etc.)

    Premillennial view of \”heavens\”:
    New heaven is atmospheric heaven above the circle of the earth.
    Spiritual atmosphere where satan rules.
    Satan cast down into this area from heaven.
    This area must be purified before YHWH can come down and purify the earth.
    \”No more sea\” – required because more habitable land for redeemed mankind.

    QUESTION -was Eve originally inside Adam?
    YHWH removed something from Adam\’s side. Could it be the womb, thereby creating a womb-man, or woman?
    So EVERYBODY came from Adam, including his wife.
    So when Yeshua redeemed Adam, He automatically also redeemed Eve.

    Does this have any relation to the Lillith story?
    Screech owl H3917 = Lilith?????
    A female demon?
    Myth – steals babies in the night.


    We\’ll continue our study with Rev_21:1-8, starting with Rev_21:2.

  15. Bro Dave says:

    Sr. Jacqueline:
    Very interesting question.
    Looking at mat 22:23-33, mar 12:18-27, luk 20:27-38, two things come to mind:
    1. The question put to Jesus does not seem to refer to the Bride, but rather those resurrected to an earthly life; and,
    2. The answer seems to indicate that since there will be no marriage, then there will be no children being born.
    But, as always, this is just MY opinion, I could be wrong.
    Having said that, it’s difficult for me to imagine an earth without children’s laughter and singing.
    But then I have to recollect isa 55:8-9, but also isa 11:6 & isa 11:8 (if there are no children, where did these come from?)
    Methinks there are times when we have to just have faith that YHWH has already figured it all out and that we will be completely happy with whatever He has decided.

  16. jacqueline says:

    I was just thinking about something. Revelation 21&22 gives us just a glimpse into eternity but I notice the glimpse doesn’t mention childbearing.
    Billions have lived and we don’t know what type of bodies we all will have in the Re-creation and what I am saying probably don’t amount to a thing but, I just wanted to say it as we do our deep digging throughout the Bible to see what it has said about the last book Revelation.

  17. jacqueline says:

    Great study tonight of Rev. 21:1.
    I have been trying to find anywhere in the Bible that talks about living in heaven or 144,000 or all Christians living in heaven and ruling from heaven over the earth.

    The 144,000 are Jewish unmarried men it seems and don’t know enough about them but I have my thoughts on their role. I personally don’t think the Bible teaches doctrines but rather He shares with us information about Himself, Christ, and Christ Bride that comes down from heaven. This Father has found a Bride for His Son finally they get married.

    He shares what is going to happen with us in deep detail.
    Reading the Bible without the numbered verses lets you read the entire story without the unnatural breaks.

    But the Bible clearly to me teaches that man will reside on the New Heaven and New Earth. That God will reside with us and New Jerusalem will be the light of our New World. Rev 21:1-8

    I think of Jehovah’s dwelling as being all around us not far away at all. He said He is not far off even, maybe in another dimension.
    Acts 17:27 “He did this so that they might seek God, and perhaps they might reach out and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.”

    We are in his space and He sees everything.

    It is so refreshing to look at the Bible directly with fresh eyes, others and the Holy Spirit. I can’t wait to see the new earth and the huge Cube called New Jerusalem as the light for our earth. No sun nor moon as time is ageless.
    Just my thoughts.

  18. Bro Dave says:


    We began our study with Rev_21:1-8.

    Revelation 21:1-8
    Apparently, this is a vision of the new creation; a chapter of hope.
    This folds upon the Genesis story (Gen_1:2; Gen_1:9).
    Also, Job_7:12
    This seems to be the final “restitution of all things” to which Peter refers in Act_3:21, and the deliverance of the groaning creation (Rom_8:22) from the bondage of corruption which Paul describes in Rom_8:21 to fellowship with YHWH.
    John seems to be unable to find words which can portray in positive description what that universe will be, and even under inspiration he has to confine himself to negatives.
    He names various elements of terror and dread, saying: This shall not be there, nor that, nor the other, all of which are the results of human sin.
    The one great positive blessing will be that which was given to Israel in type, but then will be the perpetual experience of the human family. Compare Rev_21:3 and Exo_25:8.
    Christ Jesus is reaffirmed as the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end of our lives.
    Soon, we\’ll know the intimacy of Rev_21:7.
    But we must overcome G3528 .
    Do you find it as interesting as I do that the fearful G1169, that is, the timid, who draw back in the face of opposition, are classed with the abominable and murderers.
    OTOH, if you note that Strong\’s gives one meaning as \”by implication, faithless\”, it\’s easier to understand
    Oh, them words………..

    Revelation 21:1
    a new. Gr. kainos (S# G2537, Mar_2:22), new in quality, not in time. (S# G3501)
    Rev_21:5; Isa_65:17-19, Isa_66:22; 2Pe_3:13
    Rev_2:17; Rev_3:12; Rev_5:9; Rev_14:3, Mat_19:28, Act_3:21.
    Is it feasible that this eternal renewal has already begun in the life of the consecrated and/or believer because, using the same term, Paul says, “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation” (2Co_5:17)?
    heaven G3772 .
    Note: Since this immediately succeeds the account of the last judgment chronologically, could this refer exclusively to the heavenly state; \”the new heaven, and the new earth,\” and \”the new Jerusalem\” being emblematic of the glory and happiness which will be the portion of the good forever.
    Isa_65:17-19; Deu_11:21, 2Pe_3:7; 2Pe_3:13
    Rev_21:5, Rev_3:12, Gen_28:12, 2Sa_12:23, Ecc_1:9, Isa_51:16; Mat_22:30-32; Mat_26:29; Mat_28:20, Eph_1:10,
    a new. Gr. kainos (S# G2537, Mar_2:22), new in quality, not in time.
    earth G1093 . Psa_104:30; Psa_119:90, Ecc_1:4, Isa_64:4,
    Mic_4:1, Mat_19:28, Rom_8:19; Rom_8:21, 1Co_15:42-49, 1Pe_3:13; Psa_37:9; Psa_37:11;
    Psa_104:5; Isa_51:6; Psa_78:69
    The third heaven and third earth–the final and perfect ones (2Co_12:2).
    The first passed away at the flood (2Pe_3:6-7; Gen_7:1-12). The heavens and earth \”which are now,\” the present order of things, are reserved of God to pass away with a great fire of trouble, revolution, etc. (2Pe_3:12)
    for Rev_20:11
    the first G4413 . or, former.
    A lot of Biblical interpreters understand the new heaven and new earth to be postmillennial, since this description occurs after the account of the last judgment.
    But we must also take into account all that the rest of the prophets have written.
    If this is done, it seems that the new heaven and new earth are distinctly premillennial in the only other passages which contain the prediction (Isa_65:17-19; Isa_66:22, 2Pe_3:13).
    We have previously discussed that there are numerous instances of prophecies given out of their chronological sequence.
    The order of events can be determined by a careful comparison of all the related Scriptures.
    Many times in Scripture it will be noticed that a later prophecy is really a further explanation, elaboration, and expansion of what has been mentioned on the same topic previously (this, in fact, is the fundamental feature which must be understood to discover the meaning of prophecy, and makes the study of its details by the comparison of Scripture, and a thorough induction of all related evidence, absolutely essential).
    Just because a prediction is mentioned in a context after another prediction, does not necessitate a corresponding chronological relationship between them.
    This feature, common to prophecy and history (Hysterologia (or, The First Last), ex: Gen_10:5), is to be seen in the opening chapters of Genesis, where the account in chapter two is an expansion of what was more briefly given in chapter one.
    Another example: many predictions regarding the first advent of Christ are nowhere stated in chronological order, but their truthfulness is not diminished by this.
    If the contrary view is insisted upon, holding that the first heaven and earth are passed away in a great conflagration which destroys all natural life, and all spiritual life continues in the new heaven and earth after the Millennium, then such a view contradicts the oath bound covenants and the promises of God that Christ will reign personally on this earth for ever upon the throne of David, for the earthly kingdom of God ruled by Christ is to last for ever, not merely one thousand years, and this earth, not some other, is to be mankind\’s eternal inheritance. (Mat_5:5; Mat_24:35 2Pe_3:13, Act_7:5, Rom_4:13, Eph_1:11, 1Co_15:24 , 1Co_15:25, 1Co_15:50. Rev_21:4, Rev_20:11, Gen_1:1, Psa_102:25; Psa_102:26.
    passed away G3928 . Rev_21:4, Rev_20:11, Psa_102:26, Ecc_1:4, Mat_24:34-35;Job_14:12, Isa_51:11; Isa_65:17, Mat_5:18; Mat_16:18; Mar_13:30-31, Luk_16:17; Luk_21:33, 1Co_7:21, 2Co_5:17, Heb_1:11; Heb_12:26-27, 2Pe_3:7; 2Pe_3:10, 1Jn_2:17.
    and there. Rev_13:1, Psa_65:7, Isa_27:1; Isa_57:20, Dan_7:3.
    was G2076 . Gr. is.
    no more sea. Rev_4:6; Rev_13:1; Rev_18:17; Rev_20:13, Gen_1:2; Gen_1:9, Psa_72:8; Psa_74:14; Psa_89:10; Psa_107:25-26, Isa_48:18; Isa_57:20, Zec_9:10.
    Seven things will not be in the new creation:
    (1) No sea, Rev_21:1;
    (2) No tears, Rev_21:4;
    (3) No death, Rev_21:4;
    (4) No sorrow, Rev_21:4;
    (5) No crying, Rev_21:4;
    (6) No pain, Rev_21:4;
    (7) No curse, Rev_22:3,
    thus nothing to harm the perfect bliss of God’s people.

    How is all this going to come about?
    (Isa_64:4, 1Co_2:9)

    We looked at \”earth\” H776 G1093 and its different uses in both the Hebrew and Greek Texts.


    We\’ll begin by looking at:
    \”earth\” H776 G1093 .
    We\’ll continue our study with Rev_21:1-8, starting with Rev_21:2.

  19. jacqueline says:

    Br Dave, you explanation describes accurately what our inclusive fellowship is about.
    I have always enjoyed reading just the Bible from my youth. My oldest brother would pay the younger children money during the summer months if we found the answer to questions that were found in 3 chapters at a time. He allowed each of us to give a slightly different answer . Now I realize his wisdom although just a teenager himself. He realized all eight of us could see scripture from a different angle.

    My Mother and most families in our area had a family Bible study. Each of your friends including those not witnesses knew not to call or come by during your family hour.
    Being raised in segregation and before there was a governing body allowed our one Brother and his 2 servants make decisions on Shepherding the flock, Watchtower organization had no real input in our lives. We bought books and magazines from them.
    Now I enjoy our small Fellowship that is open to all to go and come at will.

    This Covid virus will allow families the opportunity to take back control of their lives and go straight to Jehovah our God through our Lord Jesus and not through an organization.

  20. Bro Dave says:

    (see Podcasts below)

    Scriptures and words (Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance) from the podcast:


    BIAS G4346 and ERROR H7944 H7952

    Gen_3:3; Gen_3:6
    Joh_20:29 KJV

    believed G4100

    Joh_17:17; Psa_33:4; 1Th_2:13
    Rev_2:4-6; Rev_2:14-15
    Gen_3:1-6; Luk_4:3-13; Luk_4:1
    Pro_30:6; Rev_22:18-19

    liar H3576

    Eph_4:15; 2Ti_2:24-26
    Pro_18:13; Tit_1:9; 1Co_3:18-20
    Deu_18:22; Mat_5:18; Luk_24:44
    Joh_14:26; Joh_16:13; 2Co_1:13
    Deu_12:32; Pro_30:5-6; Ecc_12:11-12; 1Co_4:5-6; Rev_22:18-19
    Num_23:19; Psa_119:160; Mat_4:4; Act_20:27
    Act_17:11; 2Co_11:4; 1Th_5:21; 1Jn_4:1
    Pro_16:18 ; Pro_14:3; Psa_59:12

    searched G350 G303 & G2919 or, examined
    (1) examine: Act_4:9; Act_12:19; Act_24:8; Act_28:18, Luk_23:14, 1Co_9:3,
    (2) judge: 1Co_2:15; 1Co_2:15; 1Co_4:3; 1Co_4:3-4; 1Co_14:24,
    (3) ask question: 1Co_10:25; 1Co_10:27,
    (4) search: Act_17:11,
    (5) discern: 1Co_2:14
    Compare “search” at Joh_5:39, the same English but a different Greek word (*S# G2045).
    Lev_11:3, 1Ch_28:8, Psa_1:2; Psa_1:3; Psa_119:18; Psa_119:97-100; Psa_119:148, Pro_2:2; Pro_8:9; Pro_15:14, Isa_8:20; Isa_34:16, Luk_16:29; Luk_24:44, Joh_3:21; Joh_5:39 , Joh_5:40, 1Co_2:14 . 1Ti_4:13, 2Ti_3:15-16, 1Pe_1:10-12, 2Pe_1:19-21, 1Jn_4:5; 1Jn_4:6.

    fellowship H8667 & G2842 G2844

    Pro_3:5; Col_2:8; Mar_7:13
    Deu_4:2 Deu_12:32; Pro_30:5-6; Rev_22:18

  21. Bro Dave says:


    Welcome to the Berean Bible Fellowship and our Thursday night examining of the Scriptures.

    Question from one of our Fellowship – discuss:
    Take thou also. Dan_1:12; Dan_10:3.
    wheat H2406. Eze_4:13; Eze_4:16.
    millet. Note: Dochan, in Arabic dokhu, the holcus dochna of Forskal, is a kind of millet, of considerable use as food;..
    fitches H3698. or, spelt. A kind of corn, always distinguished from wheat, barley, etc. In times of scarcity it is customary to mix several kinds of coarser grain with the finer, to make it last the longer. Exo_9:32, Isa_28:25.
    lying on thy side – Eze_4:4; Eze_4:6.
    Three hundred and ninety days. Eze_4:5.
    The days of Israel’s punishment; because here is a figure of the exile which concerns all the tribes, not of the siege which concerns Judah alone.
    shalt thou eat. 2Ki_25:3, Jer_52:6, Lam_5:4.

    These are actions that the prophet Ezekiel actually did.

    Ezekiel is a book that is more self-explanatory than others.
    The best way to understand it is the read it in its entirety from the beginning.


    We continued our study of Rev_20:11-15, looking at all the verses as a whole, but searching the Scriptures, whether these things are so. (Act_17:10-11)

    Revelation 20:11-15


    And – implies continuation of thought and time frame from Rev 20:10.
    This is clearly after the 1000 year Millennial Kingdom (Rev_20:7).
    the great G3173 white G3022 throne G2362 judgment.
    Psa_9:7-8, Psa_47:8, Psa_89:14, Psa_97:2; Mat_25:31; Act_17:30-31; Rom_2:5-11
    It is great because of the issues involved
    Many believe it is white because of the perfection and purity of the decisions handed down. Gen_18:25;
    Mat_5:36, Mar_9:2-3 , Mar_16:5, Luk_9:29, Joh_4:35, Joh_20:12, Act_1:10, Rev_1:14 , Rev_2:17, Rev_3:4-5 , Rev_3:18, Rev_4:4, Rev_6:2, Rev_6:11, Rev_7:9, Rev_14:13-14 , Rev_19:11, Rev_19:14 , Rev_20:11

    Christ is sitting as Judge (Joh_5:22, Joh_5:27).
    Notice these verses refer to \”the Son\” judging, not the Christ Head and Body.

    QUESTION – At this point in time, does \”the Son\” include or exclude \”the Body\”?

    from G575 whose face G4383 the earth G1093 and the heaven G3772 fled away G5343 –
    Rev_6:14, Rev_16:20, Rev_21:1; Jer_4:23-26; Dan_2:35; Mat_24:35; 2Pe_3:7, 2Pe_3:10-12
    QUESTION – Does this indicate that this judgment takes place in eternity, after the destruction of the present creation (2Pe_3:10).
    Could this refer to:
    The symbolic heavens and earth representing the old order of things, social and ecclesiastical.
    vanishing (\”Fled away\”) and indicating that the old order can no longer exist after this judgement
    (\”Found G2147 no G3756 place G5117 \”)
    Rev_12:8; Job_9:6
    Something else?

    I saw: Rev_20:11

    The dead, small G3398 and great, G3173 stand G2476 before G1799 God.
    Dan_12:2; Joh_5:28-29, Joh_11:25-26; Act_24:15; 1Co_15:21-23; 1Th_4:15-17
    Rom_14:10-12; 1Co_4:5; 2Co_5:10

    Two sets of books G975 are opened G455.
    Dan_7:10; Rom_14:10-12; 1Co_4:5; 2Co_5:10

    The Book of Life G2222
    Does this contain the names of all who have been redeemed by the Ransom Sacrifice of Christ?
    Rev_3:5; Rev_21:27; Dan_12:1; Luk_10:20; Phi_4:3

    The other books contain a detailed record of the works of those whose names are not written in the Book of Life.
    Are these are the unbelievers and disobedient of all the ages?
    No one who appears at this judgment is registered in the Book of Life.
    Rev_13:8, Rev_17:8; Psa_69:28;
    The fact that his name is missing from the Book of Life condemns him, but it seems the record of his evil works determines the degree of his punishment.
    Rev_20:13, Rev_2:23, Rev_22:12; Psa_28:4, Psa_62:12; Pro_24:12, Pro_24:29; Ecc_12:14; Jer_17:10; Jer_32:19; Mat_16:27; Rom_2:6; 2Co_5:10

    The sea will yield up the bodies of those who have been buried in it.
    gave up the dead. Job_14:14.
    The graves, here represented by Death, will deliver up all mankind who have been interred.
    Rev_6:8; Hos_13:14; 1Co_15:50-58
    Hades lG86 H7585 will give up the souls of all who died to stand before the Judge.
    Mat_11:23, Rev_1:8; Rev_6:8, Psa_16:10, Isa_5:14, Eze_37:12, Mat_16:18, Luk_16:23, Act_2:27; Act_24:15, 1Co_15:55
    delivered up. 1Ki_17:17-24, Job_14:14, Isa_26:19, Mat_22:23-33, Luk_7:11-17; Luk_8:49-56, Joh_11:25-26; Joh_11:43-44.
    the dead. Act_24:15.
    which were in them. Php_2:10.
    and they. Rev_20:12, Deu_32:39, Dan_12:2.
    were judged. Rev_6:10, Psa_9:8, Eze_7:3.
    every man G1538 or, each one. Rom_14:12, Gal_6:5.
    according. Rev_20:12, Psa_28:4, Isa_59:18, Eze_7:9, 2Co_5:10, Gal_2:16.
    their works G2041

    death G2288 G2348. Rev_20:13, Rev_1:18; Rev_6:8, Rev_19:20; Rev_21:4, Job_28:22, Isa_25:8, Hos_13:14, Rom_5:12, 1Co_15:26; 1Co_15:53; 1Co_15:54, 2Ti_1:10, Heb_2:15.
    and. Gen_8:22.
    hell G86 G1 G1492, Mat_11:23, Rev_20:13, Rev_1:18; Rev_6:8, Mat_5:22; Mat_5:29-30; Mat_7:21-23, Luk_16:22-26.
    were cast. Rev_20:10, Rev_19:20; Rev_21:4, Mat_13:42, Luk_12:5; Luk_20:36, 1Co_15:26.
    into the lake of fire. Rev_20:10; Rev_20:15, Rev_21:8, Psa_21:9, Luk_8:31, 2Th_1:8-9.
    This is the second death. Rev_20:6, Rev_2:11; Rev_21:8.

    whosoever G1536 if any one. 1Co_15:2, Exo_32:33; Exo_34:7, Amo_3:7, Mat_7:13, Mar_16:16, Joh_3:18-19; Joh_3:36; Joh_10:3; Joh_14:6; Joh_17:9, Act_3:23; Act_4:12, Rom_3:25; Rom_5:12; Rom_8:9, Heb_1:13; Heb_2:3; Heb_12:25, 1Jn_3:8; 1Jn_5:11; 1Jn_5:12.
    not found written. Rev_20:12, Rev_3:5; Rev_13:8; Rev_17:8; Rev_21:27, Psa_69:28; Psa_87:6, Isa_4:3, Jer_17:13, Eze_13:9, Dan_12:1, Luk_10:20, Joh_3:36, Php_4:3, Heb_12:23.
    book. Exo_32:32, Rev_20:12, Rev_3:5; Rev_13:8; Rev_17:8; Rev_21:27, Mat_16:26.
    was cast G906. Rev_20:10; Rev_20:14, Rev_19:20; Rev_22:18, Psa_9:17; Psa_45:4; Psa_140:10, Pro_5:3-5; Pro_7:27, Isa_34:2, Mat_7:13; Mat_13:40-42; Mat_13:50; Mat_25:41; Mat_25:46, Mar_9:43-48, Luk_12:5, 1Co_15:28.
    lake. Rev_21:8, Luk_12:5 2Th_1:8; 2Th_1:9.
    of fire. Rev_20:10, Rev_11:18, Psa_97:3, Isa_50:11, Mat_5:22; Mat_18:8; Mat_25:41-46, Mar_9:44, Luk_8:31; Luk_16:24, Joh_15:6, 2Co_5:11, 2Th_1:8, Heb_6:8; Heb_10:27, Jas_5:3.

    If we read Revelation in the way John wrote it, one continuous narrative, and include Rev_21:1-4,
    we see that this all occurs well after Armageddon.

    The time-line is important.
    Satan has already been cast into the lake of fire.
    Many theories put this part of Revelation either during the Millennium or before it.

    The very last thing, when death and hades is cast into the lake of fire (1Co_15:26).

    If we read Rev_20:10-11 (YLT) without verses:
    \”and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night—to the ages of the ages and G2532 I saw a great white throne, and Him who is sitting upon it, from whose face the earth and the heaven did flee away, and place was not found for them;\”
    This is describing events occurring in a specific period of time.

    The resurrection in Rev_20:13 : gives us specific events in a specific time.

    Chronology many times cannot be used to make a story understandable.
    For example: a grandmother at the same time listening to granddaughters in one room, grandson in another room, cooking in the kitchen and attending a Zoom meeting,
    If trying to relate events strictly chronologically, the story would be unintelligibly entwined.



  22. jacqueline says:

    The meeting is canceled for tonight. Most of us have family visiting or are out of town. See you next Thursday.

  23. Bro Dave says:


    We will continue our study of use of the word “Torment” (Rev_20:10)

    “they”, a provided word in many translations, were tormented seems to indicate “they” = all of them, biased on how the sentence was structured.

    Time element has a bearing, e.g.:
    Revelation 20:10 YLT
    (10) and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night–to the ages of the ages.

    “to the ages of the ages” – It appears YHWH will deal with satan and his demons differently than humans, because satan’s crimes are so much more heinous than what mankind can do.

    for ever G1519 G165 G165. Gr. aion, Rev_1:6, lit. unto the ages of the ages, Gal_1:5, Rev_1:6; Rev_1:18; Rev_4:9; Rev_4:10; Rev_5:13; Rev_7:12; Rev_10:6; Rev_11:15; Rev_14:11; Rev_22:5, Isa_64:9, Dan_7:26, Mat_10:28; Mat_25:46, Mar_9:44; Mar_9:48, Luk_16:26, Eph_1:21, 2Th_1:9, Heb_6:2.


    Satan has done so much, that allowing him to simply cease to exist without further punishment.

    Jewish interpretation of “lake of fire”:
    Lake beside Dead Sea called “Lake of Fire” because it always has steam coming from it.
    They have a cauldron into which they throw sulfur and metal, to cook off impurities from the metals.

    Sometimes, if metal is corrupted too badly, you have to ‘scrap the heap” – the metal is discarded because impurities are too great.



    Because of your actions toward me (Jesus), you are going to be thrown into the fire prepared for the Devil?
    V41 – “you who are cursed” – these people must be acting just like the devil.
    Could this mean that the fire is eternal, not that people will be tormented here forever?
    And that these will “go away to punishment age-during (YLT)”?
    Where is YHWH’s Justice in this?
    Is YHWH telling us that this is not the end of it?
    Is this an indication that humans may be “tormented” until they finally give in; finally have all their impurities removed?

    There’s a lot happening AFTER the Millennial Kingdom.

    The Bible takes us to a certain point beyond which we aill not be told until YHWH’s time is right.




    After satan thrown into “lake of fire”.


    We will begin by completing our study of Revelation 20:11-15, looking at all the verses as a whole, but searching the Scriptures, whether these things are so. (Act_17:10-11)

  24. jacqueline says:

    excessive adherence to law or formula.
    “this petty legalism encouraged more to flee”
    dependence on moral law rather than on personal religious faith.
    “stress obedience apart from faith and you produce legalism”

    Jesus gave very simple, loving words to please God. It is to believe in him, have faith. Then God, Jesus by means of His Holy Spirit gave us what we call the Bible to talk with us and let us know He has a plan in place to bless us.

    Jesus already defeated satan and the effects of sin at Calgary when he died and just as important “When He Rose.”

    We have the divine privilege to read it, pray, and understand it personally and in meetings with others.

    But in love, when you leave your association you should feel renewed and loved.

    If this is happening, normally legalism has crept in. Not love and respect but arrogance and haughtiness at our own knowledge.
    Strict adherence to doctrinal teachings.

  25. jacqueline says:

    You dont bring alcohol to an AA meeting. If you are trying to get away from teaching that you have had your whole life that has proved to be mostly false and hurtful to you and so many more.
    Why would men calling themselves ministers try to take you back into bondage? Do they fear God at all?

    On symbols and signs in the Bible. When I see the +, I know it means add. This means divide ,÷. This sign × multiply. When you take the written part of the driver’s test, they have a diamond a triangle, symbols and we know what that symbol stands for.

    Revelation signs and symbols explanation is in the old testament and Jesus even told us about Gehenna.

    All of this is different from allegory. If you allegorize Revelation, that has nothing to do with it being in symbols You are adding, saying what you believe God means. You are saying this is what he meant. Jesus is very articulate and he dictated Revelation not like other books. We dont need to allegorize his text.

    Jesus is the author of Revelation, his Father told him what was going to happen until he returns.
    God says what he means and means what he says. Allegorizing the whole Bible with strange doctrines means we don’t believe God knows how to state his purpose.
    If you believe Genesis then you can understand Revelation.
    Saying what we already know does not make us accept it. Saying it over and over doesn’t make it so.
    Small groups are trying to read and study the Bible but we can’t catch a break.
    We dont bother other religions in what they hold as truths. They have the right to follow their founders teaching.we are all fellow worshippers but we must not force our long held beliefs on others when they say they dont accept it.
    Topical Study is indoctrination.
    Jumping all over the Bible to prove doctrine is not studying the Bible.

  26. Bro. Dave says:


    By request, we opened with a review discussion of use of the word \”Torment\” (Rev_20:10)

    from our study on January 9, 2020:

    Also, the question of Scriptural use of the term \”tormenting\”
    tormenting G928 G931 as in

    G928 – Thayer
    Thayer Definition:
    1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
    2) to question by applying torture
    3) to torture
    4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
    5) to be harassed, distressed
    5a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
    Part of Speech: verb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G931
    G928 – Strong
    From G931; to torture: – pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.

    G928 – King James Concordance
    Total KJV Occurrences: 12
    tormented, 5
    Mat_8:6, Rev_9:5, Rev_20:10 (3)
    torment, 3
    Mat_8:29, Mar_5:7, Luk_8:28
    pained, 1
    toiling, 1
    tossed, 1
    vexed, 1

    Note the different translations of the same Greek word in KJV:

    Mat_8:6  AndG2532 saying,G3004 Lord,G2962 myG3450 servantG3816 liethG906 atG1722 homeG3614 sick of the palsy,G3885 grievouslyG1171 tormented.G928
    Mat_8:29  And,G2532 behold,G2400 they cried out,G2896 saying,G3004 What have we to do with thee,G5101 G2254 G4671 Jesus,G2424 thou SonG5207 of God?G2316 art thou comeG2064 hitherG5602 to tormentG928 usG2248 beforeG4253 the time?G2540
    Mat_4:24  ButG1161 theG3588 shipG4143 wasG2258 nowG2235 in the midstG3319 of theG3588 sea,G2281 tossedG928 withG5259 waves:G2949 forG1063 theG3588 windG417 wasG2258 contrary.G1727
    Mar_5:7  AndG2532 criedG2896 with a loudG3173 voice,G5456 and said,G2036 What have I to do with thee,G5101 G1698 G2532 G4671 Jesus,G2424 thou SonG5207 of theG3588 most highG5310 God?G2316 I adjureG3726 theeG4571 by God,G2316 that thou tormentG928 meG3165 not.G3361
    Mar_6:48  AndG2532 he sawG1492 themG846 toilingG928 in rowing;G1643 forG1063 theG3588 windG417 wasG2258 contraryG1727 unto them:G846 andG2532 aboutG4012 the fourthG5067 watchG5438 of theG3588 nightG3571 he comethG2064 untoG4314 them,G846 walkingG4043 uponG1909 theG3588 sea,G2281 andG2532 wouldG2309 have passed byG3928 them.G846
    Luk_8:28  When(G1161) he sawG1492 Jesus,G2424 he cried out,G349 andG2532 fell down beforeG4363 him,G846 andG2532 with a loudG3173 voiceG5456 said,G2036 What have I to do with thee,G5101 G1698 G2532 G4671 Jesus,G2424 thou SonG5207 of GodG2316 most high?G5310 I beseechG1189 thee,G4675 tormentG928 meG3165 not.G3361
    2Pe_2:8  (ForG1063 that righteous manG1342 dwellingG1460 amongG1722 them,G846 in seeingG990 andG2532 hearing,G189 vexedG928 his righteousG1342 soulG5590 from dayG2250 toG1537 dayG2250 with their unlawfulG459 deeds;)G2041
    Rev_9:5  AndG2532 to themG846 it was givenG1325 thatG2443 they should notG3361 killG615 them,G846 butG235 thatG2443 they should be tormentedG928 fiveG4002 months:G3376 andG2532 theirG848 tormentG929 was as the tormentG929 of a scorpion,G4651 whenG3752 he strikethG3817 a man.G444
    Rev_11:10  AndG2532 they that dwellG2730 uponG1909 theG3588 earthG1093 shall rejoiceG5463 overG1909 them,G846 andG2532 make merry,G2165 andG2532 shall sendG3992 giftsG1435 one to another;G240 becauseG3754 theseG3778 twoG1417 prophetsG4396 tormentedG928 them that dweltG2730 onG1909 theG3588 earth.G1093
    Rev_12:2  AndG2532 she being with childG2192 G1722 G1064 cried,G2896 travailing in birth,G5605 andG2532 painedG928 to be delivered.G5088
    Rev_14:10  The sameG846 shall(G2532) drinkG4095 ofG1537 theG3588 wineG3631 of theG3588 wrathG2372 of God,G2316 which is poured outG2767 without mixtureG194 intoG1722 theG3588 cupG4221 of hisG848 indignation;G3709 andG2532 he shall be tormentedG928 withG1722 fireG4442 andG2532 brimstoneG2303 in the presenceG1799 of theG3588 holyG40 angels,G32 andG2532 in the presenceG1799 of theG3588 Lamb:G721
    Rev_20:10  AndG2532 theG3588 devilG1228 that deceivedG4105 themG846 was castG906 intoG1519 theG3588 lakeG3041 of fireG4442 andG2532 brimstone,G2303 whereG3699 theG3588 beastG2342 andG2532 theG3588 false prophetG5578 are, andG2532 shall be tormentedG928 dayG2250 andG2532 nightG3571 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165
    No definition as \”jailors\” as in WS.
    Scriptures indicate victim of torment had to be conscious.

    Satan has done so much, that allowing him to simply cease to exist without further punishment.

    Some translations (NAS; NIV) – \”THEY shall be tormented\”.
    A verb.
    3rd person plural = not me, but somebody else, and more than one.
    THEY must mean satan, beast, false prophet.
    Beast and False prophet are not entities, but symbols.
    Cannot torment symbols.

    So a symbolic representation of what\’s going to happen to ungodly:
    All the ungodly will receive \”everlasting destruction\”.

    Is \”Beast\” a world power run by men?
    a head or some form of government?

    Is \”False prophet\” the head of religious organization(s)?

    Either way, if symbols, they cannot be tormented.
    If man, they are destroyed by second death.

    Because the \”beast\” is symbolic, the \”fire must be symbolic.
    Satan is spirit creature and unaffected by fire.


    Great mountain = Roman Empire?
    Fire = YHWH\’s judgement?
    sea = those conquering Rome?

    QUESTION – allegorize this entire passage?

    everlasting G166. Gr. aionios, Mat_18:8, Aionios describes duration, either undefined but not endless (as in Rom_16:25, 2Ti_1:9, Tit_1:2); or undefined because endless (as in Rom_16:26 (Mat_12:40), Psa_92:7, Isa_33:14, Mat_18:8; Mat_25:41; Mat_25:46 Mar_3:29; Mar_9:43; Mar_9:44, Luk_1:33; Luk_12:59, Rom_16:26, 2Co_4:18; 2Co_5:1, Php_3:19, 1Ti_6:16, Tit_1:2, Heb_5:9; Heb_6:2; Heb_9:12; Heb_9:14, 1Pe_5:10, 2Pe_1:11; 2Pe_2:4, Jud_1:7.

    destruction. G3639, olethros, from ollumi (to ruin): 1Co_5:5, 1Th_5:3, 2Th_1:9, 1Ti_6:9, (Mat_25:46). Lev_23:29 Deu_7:23, 2Sa_22:41, 1Ki_13:3-4, Job_31:3, *Psa_28:5; Psa_37:38; Psa_73:18; Psa_80:16; Psa_92:7, Isa_1:28; Isa_65:15-17, Jer_4:20, Mat_7:13; Mat_10:28 Act_3:23, 1Co_10:10, Php_3:19, 1Th_5:3, Heb_11:28, 2Pe_3:7, Jud_1:13, Rev_17:8; Rev_17:11; Rev_19:19-21; Rev_20:10.

    \”Torment\” does not seem to mean death, first or second. How is a dead entity tormented?
    How does everlasting destruction equal torment?
    Possibly by having such an undesirable outcome which last forever.

    Since YHWH is everlasting, His Justice must be everlasting.
    We cannot expect YHWH to act the same way we, humans, would act.

    We cannot put YHWH in a box and say \”He SHOULD do this or that.\”
    YHWH cannot lie (Tit_1:2) – the lies come in whenever man tries to cause Him to do something out of His Character.

    The Bible doesn\’t say, such as before Christ, Jews didn\’t have a strong doctrine about life after death. The concentration was on \”now\”. Things like that can be even scarier than what the Bible does tell us.

    We are in a time where there are bad things going on; lawlessness; unsettled state and divides that are growing.
    These types of things YHWH is going to allow for only a period of time until His Plan puts and end to this and His righteousness will everlastingly prevail.

    We will continue our study of use of the word \”Torment\” (Rev_20:10)

  27. Bro. Dave says:

    Bro. Chris:

    \”Question. We don’t believe in hell but how we refute the scripture that says the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever? How can something in non-existence be tormented?\”

    You just asked the 64-dollar question. Wish I had a bird to drop down from the ceiling with a cash prize for you. (Sorry, I know I\’m combining two old TV shows.)

    Easy answer -join us next Thursday night for a discussion of this very question.

    More difficult answer –
    It all depends on (KJV):
    1. Your belief of what the \”lakeG3041 of fireG4442 andG2532 brimstone,G2303\” is, what it does and how long it exists;
    2. Your understanding of the meaning and use of the word, \”tormentedG928\”;
    3. Your understanding of the meaning and use of the expression, \”dayG2250 andG2532 nightG3571 for ever and ever.G1519 G165 G165\” ;
    4. Your belief in just how important and relevant the fate of the devil, the beast and the false prophet are, as compared to humankind; and,
    5. Your understanding of Rev 20:14-15 and Mat 25:46 (everlastingG166 punishment:G2851) .

    Add in the questions:
    1. Are you a literalist? an interpretist? an allegorist? a Witness? a Bible Student? a Southern Baptist?
    2. Do you believe Revelation was written in absolute chronological order? Yes, I realize that if you believe that, it makes Rev 20:14-15 seem to support everlastingG166 punishment:G2851, since death is destroyed before individuals are cast into the lakeG3041 of fireG4442 andG2532 brimstone,G2303.

    Having not directly answered your question, because what I believe has no more authority than what you or any other person or group believes (in fact, what is TRUTH may be completely different than what any of us believes), please allow me to share with you how I have come to my own belief.

    I do the best I can to let the Scriptures do their own interpreting.

    I use e-sword ( on my computer.

    Using the Search feature, I use the King James Version w/Strong\’s Numbers (KJV+), which you can download through e-sword, (as you see above) and in the Search screen I select the KJV+ as the Bible to search.
    I put in the Strong\’s number to search and e-sword brings up every Scripture with a word with that number in it.
    I also look for any Hebrew words that are synonymous, and studyt those Scriptures as well.
    I take all the Scriptures in my list and study them as a group.
    I may or may not do additional searches on other words in these Scriptures.
    Sometimes, my study is fruitful in helping me understand; other times not so much (which indicates to me that my understanding is flawed and I need more study).
    Many, many times, I present my questions to our Thursday night study and receive a phenomenal amount of useful information that I ponder.

    I will tell you this: I avoid like the plague filtering my study through individuals (bodies or so-called messengers or anyone with any kind of agenda) who I am convinced in my own heart are flawed and biased in their own theology. Yeah, I know, that\’s pretty much every human.

    The humans I DO study and converse with are Bereanesque Scriptural searchers, like on Thursday nights…… and like YOU.

    I pray I have somehow helped you to find a pathway to answering your question.

    A final thought – look at the ENTIRE BIBLE. It is a completely harmonious whole. If you find something that seems like Scriptural cacophony (out of harmony), it\’s probably because you haven\’t studied JUST the scriptures…,Scriptures…, SCRIPTURES enough to yet harmonize what you seek.

    Again, please allow me to invite you to join us on Thursday nights – providing you\’re content to study Scripture and not the \”traditions of men\” nor \”reasoning from your own understanding\”.

    Failing that, please feel free to continue to read our meeting notes and comment as you see fit.

    Lastly, as you grapple with this thorny subject; and then find a harmonious Scriptural understanding of it, please post your beliefs on this page.

    You\’ll discover that no one from our Thursday night study will ridicule or in any way try to shame or minimize what you believe. And, if there\’s a Scripture that someone thinks might help you, it\’ll be offered.

    But at no time will anybody from our group attempt to bludgeon you with their interpretation or attempt to engage you in a Scriptural fire-fight.

    From OUR study. Sorry, I cannot speak for the rest, except to say that what you post may help someone in their own Scriptural journey.

    Bro. Dave

  28. Chris says:

    Bro Dave,
    Question. We don’t believe in hell but how we refute the scripture that says the devil will be tormented day and night forever and ever? How can something in non-existence be tormented?

  29. Bro. Dave says:


    During the Millennial period on earth, under the rulership of the Christ Head and Body, Rev_20:7-10 seem to indicate that evil will be subdued and restrained, but by no means will it be extinct. Had it been extinct it could not have broken out again, nor would there be any need for the παρεμβολή (camp G3925) of the saints (Rev_20:9).
    The new uprising of evil after the thousand years’ rest is certainly not what we should expect or desire.
    But doubtless YHWH has a reason for permitting it to be, or it would not be.


    We began by studying three questions, related to Rev_20:7-10:

    QUESTION I – Does this provide some hints as to the state of the Church on earth during the millennial period?
    1. There is no reason to doubt that the Millennium, owing to the restraint then put upon evil through Satan being bound will be a period of very great blessings.
    2. From Rev_20:9, it is equally clear that the Millennium will not be a period of exclusive good, since it is not a time when the saints can dispense with the παρεμβολή (camp G3925) . Compared with things as they are now, the earth will be at rest; but it will not be heavenly. Evil will be subdued, but far from extinct. The possibility of an outbreak of evil will still exist.
    3. Adam\’s curse, the last enemy, death, is still in the world. The deathless state does not arrive until the new heavens and the new earth appear, and Paradise is regained. Not till then will there be “no more curse.” (1Co_15:24-26; Rev_20:14; Rev_21:4)
    4. The Church will still have to be prepared for war. Obviously, if the state of things on earth during the Millennium were one of universal righteousness, there would be no nations to be deceived.
    There will be a Just Ruler controlling the earth.
    Nations will come up year by year to worship.
    We know of at least 11 individuals sitting on thrones as kings and priests (also a 12th not Scripturally identified).
    The system of universal government will care for Israel and all the nations.
    THE Church will act as an extension of Yeshua, Himself.
    It seems there will be law and order during the thousand years.
    It is a time of restitution (Act_3:21).
    During this time, there will be a general cleanup of the earth.
    New books will be opened for us.
    Possibly, new, helpful technology.

    Isa_2:2-4; Mic_4:1-3
    QUESTION – Is this the \”last days\” of that time period? Or, the last days of \”when the thousand years are expired\” of Rev_20:9?
    One translation it says \”in days to come\”. Another says, \”in the future\”.

    QUESTION II – What are we supposed to understand from Scripture concerning this onset of evil at the end of the Millennium?
    1. It is necessary. There is a little word in (Rev_20:3) of which we MUST G1163 not lose sight. It is the word “MUST G1163\” “After that, he MUST G1163 be loosed a little season.” Must! Why? We are not told.
    Because we sin because of Adam. Then we have the Millennial Kingdom without satan.
    Under perfect rules, everybody lives.
    Now that satan can no longer MAKE people sin, let him loose to see how many people CHOOSE to sin.
    Must in order to allow process of YHWH\’s Plan to complete.
    To prove a point to us that we need YHWH, not satan.
    Maybe it\’s not all about humankind.
    Satan is shut up top prevent him from deceiving THE NATIONS.
    In a sense, it\’s a prison sentence for satan.

    2. It will be a fierce onset. It will be after the old kind, by “deception” (Rev_20:8). What the special form of deceit he will use we are not told, and, unless we are willing to claim being under inspiration, conjecture is useless.
    3. It will be a restricted struggle. Satan will be bound by time even when loosed in terms of space. The same hand that bound retains its power even when the evil one is loosed. It appears, and I believe is certain, that not even in the worst of times is the world given over to the devil.
    4. It will be for a little season (Rev_20:3). Not only restricted, but within very narrow limits. The conflict may be sharp, but it appears it will be short.
    5. It will be suicidal. Satan is writing checks that he cannot cash.
    6. The struggle will be even serviceable to the Church; for not only will it reveal more and more the majesty of YHWH in defending His own cause, but it will end in the hurling of Satan to a lower depth than before. In Rev_12:9 we read that the devil was cast down to earth. In Rev_20:3 he is cast into the abyss. But in Rev_20:10 he is cast into the lake of fire.
    Cogito, ergo sum (Hopefully not, Fallor, ergo sum)……
    7. The struggle will be—the last. As we study YHWH\’s Plan, we cannot help but notice how one after another of the foes of YHWH and man are destroyed.
    They were four (not in order):
    (1) The dragon—Satan.
    (2) The beast.
    (3) The false prophet.
    (4) Babylon the great.

    We believe that everyone (human) who has ever lived will be resurrected and have a chance to live in YHWH\’s Kingdom.
    Satan is not unrecoverable.
    Even though we believe he will not repent.
    This is a test for mankind.

    What about eternal torment in the lake of fire?
    No Scripture tells us that satan will live forever, nor is there one that tells us that humans will suffer forever.
    \”Torment\” (Rev_20:10) can mean destruction, especially in a highly symbolic Scripture, like Revelation.

    Lake of fire is second death. (Rev_20:14)
    Lake of fire seems to be used for destruction, or as a refining process.
    Lake of fire seems to have been originally prepared for satan.

    We know next ot nothing about how spirit beings are dealt with, other than the few cast away and locked up.
    Angels do not have to deal with Adamic sin.
    We do not know what punishment is for an angel breaking a law.
    None of what happens to angels or spirit beings matters in the least to human salvation.

    QUESTION III – Is the just sovereignty of YHWH in question and is it confirmed by these Scriptures?
    We believe that YHWH went beyond the call of duty, letting mankind rule himself every which way but loose. Finally, YHWH asserts His Will after mankind has exercised every possible kind of self-rule.


    We\’ll open with a discussion of meaning of \”Torment\” (Rev_20:10)

    Then, we will study Revelation 20:11-15, looking at all the verses as a whole, but studying each verse and/or each word as deeply as our members see fit.

  30. Bro. Dave says:


    the devil: Rev_20:2-3, Rev_20:8
    the lake: Rev_20:14-15, Rev_19:20
    tormented: Rev_14:10-11; Mat_25:41, Mat_25:46

    This overthrow of the enemies of YHWH and of the church will be “final.”
    Satan will be “cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, to be tormented day and night forever.”
    If the beast and false prophet are symbols, the lake of fire must be a symbol, too.
    The beast and the false prophet are already there Rev_19:20; that is, they will have ceased long since, even before the beginning of the millennial period (Rev_19:20, as contrasted with Rev_20:1-3), for having opposed the progress of
    Truth in the world, and their power will have already been brought to an end.

    The \\\”lake of fire\\\” is emblematic of second death (Rev_20:14)


    YHWH seems to deal with spirit creatures differently from humans.

    For what he has committed, is the simple destruction of satan enough punishment?

    If we had never heard of Witnesses or BS, we could look at this Scripture more objectively. It is not inequitable to look at this Scripture literally.
    If YHWH is JUST, then tormenting G928 G931 seems, indeed, a JUST punishment for such evil characters.
    Total KJV Occurrences: 12
    tormented, 5
    Mat_8:6, Rev_9:5, Rev_20:10 (3)
    torment, 3
    Mat_8:29, Mar_5:7, Luk_8:28
    pained, 1
    toiling, 1
    tossed, 1
    vexed, 1

    Thayer Definition:
    1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
    2) to question by applying torture
    3) to torture
    4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
    5) to be harassed, distressed
    5a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
    Part of Speech: verb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G931

    From G931; to torture: – pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.

    Implies satan has more \\\”time\\\” to do.


    We cannot put YHWH in a box – the only thing we KNOW He cannot do, is lie. (Tit_1:2, Heb_6:18)

    The teaching of simple destruction of these evil characters is peculiar to Witnesses and BS.

    The lake of fire is a crucible for purification.

    “Fire” is the emblem of suffering (Zec_13:9; 1Co_3:13-15; 1Pe_1:7); “brimstone” is the emblem of desolation (Job_18:15).

    Once individuals go through this refining process, they can be YHWH\\\’s people.

    Satan now, the last willful enemy (1Co_15:26), will be doomed to the same hopelessness; and all the enemies that have ever opposed the True Church (Christ Head and Body) will be destroyed forever.

    Death and Hades, things which cannot burn, are also cast into the lake of fire (Rev_20:14).

    The world then will have peace; the Church will have rest; the great triumph will have been achieved, YHWH\\\’s Plan – going all the way back to Genesis (Gen_3:15) – will have been accomplished, and, Isa_55:11 will have been proven true.

    Satan meets his final perdition – KJV G684.

    He was imprisoned in the abyss before; but he is now “cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the Beast and the False Prophet [are].”

    Even though not quoted in Rev_20:10, there is a very interesting word used broadly concerning this topic:
    PERDITION G684 — found in KJV, Jubilee, Literal Translation, ASV, AMP, and DRB.
    Most other translations use the word \\\”destruction\\\”.
    Strong defines The word PERDITION G684 as destruction, ruin, damnation, or waste, especially through the eternal destruction brought upon the wicked by YHWH (Heb_10:39; 2Pe_3:7).
    Jesus contrasted the broad way that leads destruction (Mat_7:13), with the narrow way that leads to to life (Mat_7:14).
    The apostle Paul contrasted perdition with salvation (Php_1:28).
    The “desire to be rich” may lead one to “destruction and perdition” (1Ti_6:9).
    Peter speaks of “the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men” (2Pe_3:7), a perishing far worse than those destroyed in the Flood.
    The KJV Greek Scriptures twice use the phrase “son of perdition”: once of Judas Iscariot (Joh_17:12) and once of “the man of sin [or lawlessness],” whom some identify with the Antichrist (2Th_2:3).
    The phrase portrays the progression of an evil character who produces ruin in others, and is headed toward final judgment (Rev_17:8, Rev_17:11).
    Perdition in this passage seems to refer to a place of total destruction and obliteration, the final state of the damned.

    (Dan 12:4) But thou,H859 O Daniel,H1840 shut upH5640 the words,H1697 and sealH2856 the book,H5612 even toH5704 the timeH6256 of the end:H7093 manyH7227 shall run to and fro,H7751 and knowledgeH1847 shall be increased.H7235

    (Dan 12:9) And he said,H559 Go thy way,H1980 Daniel:H1840 forH3588 the wordsH1697 are closed upH5640 and sealedH2856 tillH5704 the timeH6256 of the end.H7093
    (Dan 12:10) ManyH7227 shall be purified,H1305 and made white,H3835 and tried;H6884 but the wickedH7563 shall do wickedly:H7561 and noneH3808 H3605 of the wickedH7563 shall understand;H995 but the wiseH7919 shall understand.H995

    This leads to a lot of questions.

    During the Millennial period on earth, under the rulership of the Christ Head and Body, Rev_20:7-10 seem to indicate that evil will be subdued and restrained, but by no means will it be extinct. Had it been extinct it could not have broken out again, nor would there be any need for the παρεμβολή (camp G3925) of the saints (Rev_20:9).
    The new uprising of evil after the thousand years’ rest is certainly not what we should expect or desire.
    But doubtless YHWH has a reason for permitting it to be, or it would not be.

    We will begin by studying three questions, related to rev 20:7-10:
    QUESTION I – Does this provide some hints as to the state of the Church on earth during the millennial period?
    QUESTION II – What are we supposed to understand from Scripture concerning this onset of evil at the end of the Millennium?
    QUESTION III – Is the sovereignty of YHWH in question and is it answered by these Scriptures?

    Then, we will study Revelation 20:11-15, looking at all the verses as a whole, but studying each verse and/or each word as deeply as our members see fit.

  31. Bro. Dave says:


    Bro. David Rice offered another view of Rev_20:7-9 and related Scriptures concerning the 70 weeks.

    Daniel 9 and the 70 Weeks

    See PODCAST page .

    Daniel and the Apocalypse – Isaac Newton. 1998

    A New Analysis of Chronology and Geography, History and Prophecy – William Hales

    Ezr_7:11-28 – 458 BC + 70 weeks = 33 AD

    Dan_9:26-27 – IF said AFTER 70th week, the date would be too late.
    The \”midst of the week\” = 29 AD, when Jesus was baptized. Heb_10:7-9

    Hab_3:2 -458 BC is exactly half of 7000 years of YHWH\’s Plan.

    1Ki_6:1 – 956 BC – accepted date of historians who accept the Scriptures.

    QUESTION – \”sands of the sea\” – wouldn\’t that be difficult for people to see their relatives follow satan?
    DISCUSSION – this may refer to those who are tempted – the whole world of mankind, not to those who are actually deceived.
    OTOH, if 1% of, say, 50 million are deceived – that\’s a large number.

    Dan_9:27 –
    QUESTION – What about the abomination of desolation?
    DISCUSSION – A generation later (post 70 weeks) the Roman army established the abomination of desolation.
    The final phrase points out that pagan Rome will be destroyed (the second trumpet in Revelation).

    Also, who is the active person in Dan_9:27?
    Could be YHWH, Himself.

    What about Cornelius?
    When Jesus read Isa_61:1, He did not read Isa_61:2, because this had yet to be fulfilled.


    We will open the meeting with any discussion of what we\’ve heard the past 2 weeks.

    We will continue our study with Revelation 20:10

    AND, time permitting,

    We will study Revelation 20:11-15, looking at all the verses as a whole, but delving into each verse and/or each word as deeply as necessary.

  32. Bro. Dave says:


    Notes from Bro. Bob Carnegie\’s talk, \”The Four Sieges of Jerusalem\”


    FIRST Siege
    Precedes Armageddon
    AD 70-72
    \”house\” G3624 temple
    \”desolate\” G2048 waste

    \”house\” G3624 temple


    Why did disciples show Jesus a building He was so familiar with?
    As if to ask Jesus, \”How could these marvelous structures be torn down?\”

    things – plural?

    Predicting a coming that Israel would recognize.

    These are two amazing predictions (Mat_23:38-39)

    The sign of Jesus\’ coming and the end of the world

    They did not realize that the destruction of Temple and His coming would be millenia apart.

    Wanting a sign that indicated its NEARNESS.
    Had to be NEARNESS, because they would not need a sign once the Temple was destroyed.

    Jesus gave them a sign of when the destruction of the Temple was NEAR:
    Historically, about AD 70 Jerusalem was surrounded by enemies. Then a pause for political purposes.

    FOURTH Seige
    Similar language to Luk_21:20 – Jerusalem surrounded by enemies in AD 70.
    Fourth Siege occurs at conclusion of the little season.
    Tells us where there is a fuller account of this in the Old Testament, by identifying Gog and Magog.

    Picture of completely unprotected Israel.

    Eze_36:24-38 – restoration of Israel
    With the world today, is it reasonable that Israel will become so confident in their security that they will become completely unprotected and eliminate all their protections?

    That is because Eze_38:11 does not belong to this age – it belongs to the end of the little season.
    It is Rev_20:8 that places the events and personalities (Gog and Magog) of Eze 38 at the end of the little season.
    The prophecy about Gog and Magog belong to the end of the little season.

    Rev_20:8 identifies Gog and Magog as forces against Israel at the end of the little season.
    Also mentions that their attack will be made up of a very large number:

    Their end will come by fire:

    Rev_20:7-9 duplicates the details of the prophetic vision of Ezekiel 38 & 39, and identifies its fulfillment as at the end of the little season.

    Something distinguishes this siege upon Israel as opposed to the other sieges in the Bible (besides Gog and Magog):
    This particular siege never reaches Jerusalem.
    These combatants are destroyed in the mountains.
    Then comes the time when the weapons of war are destroyed forever:

    What of the people that made up Gog\’s force?

    In this FOURTH and LAST siege, the force gets no closer than the mountains and that is where Revelation places it.

    That is niot the case with the SECOND siege:

    In this case, the flight is TO the mountains because the danger is in Judea itself.
    The trouble is so fierce that it is possible that it could expand to the destruction of all flesh.
    This sounds like the event in Zec_14:1-2
    Which sounds like Luk_21:21-24
    Which looks like a blending of His prophecy of AD 70, with the Second Siege of Mat_24:15-16
    We find this in Rev_11:2, which gives the length of the Times of the Gentiles.
    Jesus said Jerusalem would be trodden down until the Times of the Gentiles shall be fulfilled (Luk_21:24) – here Rev_11:2 gives that time as 42 months.

    That period coincides perfectly with the last half of Daniel\’s 70th week.
    Points out the middle of the 70th week (42 months) is when Abomination of Desolation is setup.

    Jesus marks the Abomination as the signal to get out of Judea (Mat_24:15); the prince destroys the city (Dan_9:26); the duration identified as 42 months (Rev_11:2); the description of the taking of Jerusalem (Zec_14:2); Jesus describes the Gentiles taking over Jerusalem for the length of the Gentile Times (Luk_21:24); which Rev_11:2 identifies as 42 months – the period of the last half of Daniel\’s 70th week (Dan_9:27).

    Dan_11:21 describes the exploits of the \”vile person\”
    Dan_11:31 – the \”vile person\” places the Abomination, which kicks off the second half of Daniel\’s 70 week and which Jesus says marks the introduction of the time of trouble in Judea.

    The last thing he does before he\’s destroyed is Dan_11:45.
    While prophetic, it indicates Israel is in for a serious defeat somewhere in the future at the hands of this price who shall come; the little horn, the vile person, the beast of Revelation 13.


    After the Second Siege, which is successful, but as Zec_14:2 says, still leaves a remnant of Israel, now we get to the Third Siege.

    It is at this time that God fights for His people (Zec_14:3) (AFTER the city is taken).

    This is time mentioned in Rev_16:13-16.
    This is expanded on in Rev_19:17-21.

    If the sequence of Revelation is to be accepted, it is at this point that satan is bound – not before.

    Rev_19:21 – Rev_20:1-2

    So this final siege on Israel takes place at the end of the 1260 days, the 42 months, during which the beast has been given free reign.

    In Rev_20:10, we reach the point where he and his cohorts are totally destroyed by God.

    This coincides with the smiting of the image in Dan_2:34

    Now we see the end of all human rule and the beginning of the rule of Christ Head and Body.

    One final confirmation that the safe dwelling of Israel does not happen until the end of the Millennium:
    AFTER this fight
    This safely inhabited time is AFTER the setting up of the Kingdom, which is AFTER God fights for His people.



    Always wondered why Gog and Magog came up again after 1000 years.
    Are Second and Third Sieges different or might they be the same?
    Antichrist – couldn\’t this be a man?
    Time of the Gentiles, 42 months, seems to fit reasonably.
    Abomination of Desolation – what might it be in the future? In the past it may have been (Book of Maccabees), the man who walked into the Most Holy and sacrificed a pig.
    could it have been the Emperor Nero?
    What are we looking for?
    A man?
    The Bible calls him a beast – so he has extraordinary strength or power.
    None of what Jesus talked about the Abomination has happened yet.

    Bro Russell proposed that the Abomination was
    the Wicked One (2Th_2:8);
    the Man of Sin (2Th_2:3);
    the Mystery of Iniquity (2Th_2:7);
    the Antichrist (1Jo_2:18);
    the Son of Perdition (2Th_2:3);
    the Little Horn (Dan_7:8);
    the Beast (Rev_13:1);
    the Papacy (Mat_24:15).
    (Studies in the Scriptures, VOL II, pp. 271, 277; VOL III, pp. 67, 76)

    It is possible that there are certain inaccuracies:
    For example, in 70 weeks – how to count them. Many opinions about how to calculate the 70 weeks.
    Important to have a the correct starting point.
    The prophecy explains that the midpoint of the 70th week is the execution of Christ, not carrying it into the future.
    Having more precise historical dates at hand, arriving at the correct timing is more accurate.

    Is there any credible way there are TWO 70 weeks?
    Some believe 70 weeks take you for 36 CE.
    This is based on a simple mistake in the beginning date in Vol II, Studies in the Scriptures, not a misinterpretation.
    458 BC to 33 AD.
    History of Persian Empire much better understood now than in the past.

    The 70 weeks (Dan_9:24-27)
    There is a parallel 70 weeks:
    From the flood to the death of Sarah is 490 years (70 weeks).
    The 70 weeks in Dan_9:24-27 start with the going forth of the decree to rebuild Jerusalem.
    It\’s important to have the correct starting point relating to Ezr_7:7
    Until recently, the understanding of the history of the Persian Empire was in error, resulting in calculating from the wrong date.

    Also, are the 70 weeks contiguous, or are there 69 weeks (62 + 7), then a halt, then a 70th week?

    How to view the 70th weeks.
    The prophecy is in three parts.
    Are the 70 weeks a cohesive unit?

    In Dan_9:27, refers to Jesus\’ baptism, not His death:


    We are pleased and thankful that Bro. David Rice will offer another view of Rev_20:7-9 and related Scriptures.

  33. Bro. Dave says:


    We began by continuing our study of Revelation 20:7-10.

    Who Gog and Magog are we may not be able to Scripturally tell for certain.
    (Hebrew Gog H1463) <== SEE MAGOG
    (1Ch_5:4, Eze_38:2-3 (2), Eze_38:14, Eze_38:16, Eze_38:18, Eze_39:1 (2), Eze_39:11 (2))
    (Greek Gog G1136))

    (Hebrew Magog H4031 H1463) <== SEE GOG
    Gen_10:2, 1Ch_1:5, Eze_38:2, Eze_39:6
    (Greek Magog G3098 )

    Ezekiel prophesied YHWH\'s judgment against “Gog, a prince of the land of Magog” (Eze_38:2). The land of Magog is named with Meshech and Tubal, regions near Asia Minor (Eze_38:2; Gen_10:2).
    But more than as a specific person and territory, Ezekiel seems to use Gog and Magog as a metaphor for vast armies invading Israel from the north in the end times (Eze_38:8).
    They oppose YHWH and seek to destroy His people Israel, but YHWH promises to deliver them (Eze_38:14-23).
    In Revelation, Gog and Magog seem to become symbolic names for evil nations deceived by Satan and opposed to YHWH and the kingdom of Christ (Rev_20:8).

    1. A Reubenite
    2. A Scythian prince, prophecy against
    Eze_38:3;Eze_38:14; Eze_38:16; Eze_38:18;
    Eze_39:1; Eze_39:11;

    Son of Japheth
    Gen_10:2; 1Ch_1:5
    Prophecy concerning
    Eze_38:2; Eze_39:6
    Symbolic of the enemies of God

    YHWH does not allow enemies to take Jerusalem. (see Bro. Carnegie\'s talk, \"The Four Sieges of Jerusalem.

    QUESTION – Who do you believe they are, AND, what is the basis for that belief?
    DISCUSSION – Gog is a great prince in land pf Magog.
    One of blessings – YHWH would make him large in number and great thru Japheth\'s line.
    Referred to as \"Gog of Magog\" (Ezekiel) and \"Gog and Magog\" in Revelation.
    Time Period – is this the Armageddon as mentioned in Ezekiel? Or part of \"little season\"?

    Picture of building in Lebanon or Iran (Persia), called \"Gog of Magog\", written above doorway, indicating that this was Land of Magog in ancient times.

    Gog may be northern power, Russia.
    OT figures used as a picture; as a descriptor of enemies of YHWH – those who have not been recovered and are itching for rebellion.

    In Revelation, Gog may describe a great prince,a powerful enemy of YHWH.

    In Ezekiel and Revelation, attack on city, the description in Ezekiel is pointing to city in Revelation?

    The nations are still there during the thoousand year Millenial Reign.

    QUESTION – Could the reference to the “four corners G1137 of the earth G1093” as the regions from where these rebels come, indicates that they are among the less convinced of peoples in the Kingdom and/or the least advanced among the millennial nations?
    four corners of the earth.
    People (everybody in the nations) from every part of the earth.
    Both geographically and philosophically, Satan succeeds in making a large (Heb_11:12), indeterminate number of people (\"as the sands of the sea\") from everywhere dissatisfied with the holy rule of the Christ Head and Body, and deceives them to believe that they can successfully throw it off and crush it out, as the deluded kings under the Antichrist were persuaded a thousand years before.

    We cannot count the number of those involved.
    See also, uses of \"dust of the earth\" and \"stars of heaven\".

    How is it that the end of the Millennium the defectors are so numerous as to be the \"sand of the sea\"?

    Are Gog and Magog referring to those who have plagued Israel thru history? To battle with YHWH?
    To what end?

    In Eze 38, five allies of Gog.
    One is Persia.
    Is Persia the Iran of today?
    If so, Iran is allied with Russia (Magog?) today.
    Turkey, Libya and Ethiopia, Kush (Yemen).
    Gomer = People north of Black Sea who migrated north and became Germany (Western Europe).
    These may be heart of coalition?
    All this is prophetic – we\'ll have to wait and see.

    A terrible disaster results. A crazier thing than Gog and Magog’s attempt was never undertaken upon earth. It is simply a march into the jaws of death, for no rebellion against those who then hold the reins of government can be tolerated. The insane war is quickly terminated. “There came down fire G4442 out of heaven and devoured them.” Not one of them escapes.
    Eze_39:1-14 (Eze 38-40)

    1. From this Scripture\'s teaching that Gog and Magog compassed G2944 the camp of the saints, it seems clear that the consecrated and Church has been, is still, and will be to the end, the primary target of Satan’s fiery darts (Eph_6:16), and, they need not expect either intermission or mitigation (to use a term popularized by our present pandemic).
    2. also, it seems equally clear that the consecrated and the Church may by YHWH’s permission be compassed about on all sides without any escape (Exo_14:9-12), as Israel was coming out of Egypt, or that boat wherein Christ was (Mat_8:1-34.); yet YHWH will never fail, but the utter distress will be seen to be His opportunity.
    3. Whereas the Church is called the \"beloved city\", this is hope to all, that whatever their situation here, hated by the world and persecuted, yet they are beloved of YHWH and shall be preserved by Him.
    4. This verse concludes with fire coming down from heaven and devouring them, which seems to confirm that full and final destruction at last shall be the end of all YHWH’s enemies.


    We will continue discussing Revelation 20:10

    AND, time permitting,

    We will study Revelation 20:11-15, looking at all the verses as a whole, but delving into each verse and/or each word as deeply as necessary.

  34. Bro. Dave says:



    Rev_20:1 – angel binding satan
    Rev_19:17 – Christ Head and Body
    Mat_13:43 – righteous shine forth as sun
    Rev_10:1 – Jesus? or 6th trumpet. In Daniel the angel in Daniel 12, does the same. This angel is Gabriel.
    Rainbow alludes to rainbow after the flood – persecutions of saints never to be repeated.
    Psa_149:8-9 – bind their kings with chains – saints (the Church) in glory.

    Does Christ hold a more special role than other angels in Revelation?
    Normally, a single angel not identified as Jesus.

    Michael in OT is Jesus in NT.

    Jesus, after resurrection, is he named Michael?
    Michael still applied to Jesus
    Daniel 12 – Michael used four times referring to angelic King.
    Jesus is the highest angel.

    About binding of satan – satan stronger than any other angel other than Michael.
    What about YHWH saying, \”you will be bound\” – it is decided by YHWH\’s decree.
    Intrinsic strength of angel is irrelevant.

    Much is interpretive.
    If we allow Scripture to interpret itself, many things may become clear.
    Usually confirmed by corroborating Scriptures.

    After our review,
    We began studying Revelation 20:7-10, looking at all the verses as a whole, but delving into each verse and/or each word as deeply as necessary.

    Revelation 20:7-10

    Notice what happens immediately following this thousand years.

    1. The devil is let loose.
    For how long?
    Satan had to deceive the nations before he could accomplish his goal.

    To me, it seems like a great pity, after the world has rested for a thousand years, that the arch-enemy of YHWH\’s peace and truth, the deceiver of the whole world (Rev_12:9), the roaring lion (1Pe_5:8), should again be let loose to produce his own flavor of havoc and chaos.
    But there seems to be some sort of necessity for it.
    The statement to John was, that he MUST G1163 be loosed a little time (Rev_20:3).

    QUESTION: What interest of righteousness and moral government makes it imperative that Satan MUST G1163 be allowed this last freedom?

    My INTERPRETATION is that even if for nothing else, it is imperative that he should have this opportunity to prove to YHWH, the Christ, the angels and all humanity how little an imprisonment of a thousand years had served to change him, or reformed him from his evil and rebelliousness.
    YHWH allowing this continuing process showing that this satanic rule will never, ever happen again.
    Humans get a thousand years of peace, then satan is released and humans can then be judged on their own sins, and not Adam\’s.
    Mankind has to learn to love YHWH on their own.
    Isa_24:21-22 – are High ones satan and demons?
    A testing of satan to learn if he could repent.

    2. The newly released Adversary seduces Gog G1136 and Magog G3098 into rebellion.
    At this time why does he not send forth to “the kings of the earth,” as mentioned by Peter in Act_4:26?
    Because, he has already experienced the folly of using them once (Rev_16:14) and at this time, there are then no mortal kings to be led astray,
    but he goes directly to the people, weasels hi way into their hearts and minds and causes them to become disenchanted and turn against the rule under which the King of kings has placed the nations, and convinces them into an attempt to overthrow it.
    Although, in Gen_10:2; Eze_38:1-23; Eze_39:1-29.there is a discussion of them.
    YHWH does not allow enemies to take Jerusalem. (see Bro. Carnegie\’s talk, \”The Four Sieges of Jerusalem\” – at:

    QUESTION – Who do you believe they are, AND, what is the basis for that belief?

    Other questions as we continue discussing Rev 20:7-10:

    QUESTION I – Does this provide some hints as to the state of the Church on earth during the millennial period?

    QUESTION II – What are we supposed to understand from Scripture concerning this onset of evil after the Millennium?

    QUESTION III – Is the sovereignty of YHWH in question and is it answered by these Scriptures?


    We will continue discussing Revelation 20:7-10

    AND, time permitting,

    We will study Revelation 20:11-15, looking at all the verses as a whole, but delving into each verse and/or each word as deeply as necessary.

  35. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we began our study with Revelation 20:6


    Blessed G3107 and holy G40 — The resurrection of the blessed and holy.
    Showing the holiness, as well as the blessedness of all those in the reigning company.
    The Greek word (declarations of blessedness made by Jesus at the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount (Mat_5:3-12)) translated “blessed” G3107 means “happy; having spiritual well-being and prosperity,” the deep joy of the soul (see also Luk_6:20-22).

    Blessed begins the fifth of seven beatitudes in Revelation.
    The other six occurrences in Revelation (Rev_1:3; Rev_14:13; Rev_16:15; Rev_19:9; Rev_22:9, Rev_22:14) seem to all look forward to life with Christ beyond the first resurrection (Rev_20:5).

    The blessedness mentioned here belongs more precisely to those who have a part G3313 (or share or portion) in the first resurrection.

    Is there any Scripture that specifies that there are only two resurrections?

    QUESTION Does this refer ONLY to those believers who qualify to function as king-priests in Christ\’s kingdom (the Body of Christ) as mentioned in Rev_1:6?
    This might be what Paul was referring to when he spoke of his goal of obtaining the prize of Christ (1Co_9:27; Php_3:10-14).
    A – possible there are other resurrections. First resurrection applies only to Body.

    ANOTHER QUESTION: Or is it as some interpret from 1Co_15:42-53 that ONLY this \”blessed and holy\” class have part in the first resurrection?

    QUESTION – Are the blessings provided for these the earthly portion, or the heavenly portion?
    When Dorcas was dying she was surrounded by the loving hands of YHWH\’s people. And when she was restored to life, they were there to bid her welcome. Act_9:36-41
    QUESTION: What does this suggest?.
    A – Many allegorize \”saints\” – but these were the women – EXACTLY who the Bible says they were.

    He that hath part G3313 (share or portion) — It seems that those who have a part are those who are faithful to doing YHWH\’s will to the extent of their ability.
    YHWH never expects anybody to do beyond his ability.
    \”Those who have done G4160 good G18\” of Joh_5:28-29.
    The resurrection of the \”good\” includes the Church, Great Company and Ancient Worthies.
    Open to all, as well as to \”Jew or Greek, bond or free, male or female.\” (Gal_3:28)
    Not done perfectly, up to the divine standard in thought, word and deed, because there is \”none righteous, no, not one.\” (Rom_3:10) The nearest approach to righteousness which is possible to any is purity of heart–righteousness of intention.

    First G4413 resurrection G386 G450 — The first resurrection includes Christ and all the overcomers of this Gospel age.
    First G4413 is the chief, the highest, the most desirable resurrection.
    The word in the original strictly means first in order or quality–first-class resurrection.
    The Greek word anastasis G386 here rendered resurrection signifies \”a standing up AGAIN or raising up AGAIN,\” true in both resurrections–both reach perfection, yet one is human and the other divine perfection.
    The Greek word for \”first\”–protos–is translated \”best\” in Luk_15:22 and \”chief\” in a number of passages.

    QUESTION: Can Flesh and blood be a part of that Kingdom or must all be changed?
    ANOTHER QUESTION: Is Christ\’s Kingdom ia heavenly kingdom (1Co_15:38-50) or on earth (Rev_5:10)?
    Or BOTH (for example, a spiritual Christ Head and Body in heaven with temporal representatives on earth (e.g., the Ancient Worthies)?
    A – Have to study it some more.

    The first resurrection change will come in the twinkling of an eye (1Co_15:50-54) and will, in the fullest sense, give life.
    At this point those who blessed and holy are looked upon as new creatures, having passed from under the death condemnation.
    \”The gates of hell (hades [Greek] and sheol [Hebrew]) shall not prevail\” against them. (Mat_16:18)
    \”All who are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth\”–(Joh_5:25-29)–the Church first.
    The Church the first fruits. (1Co_15:21-23)

    We have already beaten The second death to death in our studies.
    But as a quick refresher, we need to remember that many believe this is the everlasting death in the lake of fire for unbelievers who face the great white throne judgment (as discussed by our dear Sister J. in Rev_20:11-15).

    Regardless, this is a restatement of what John previously stated that the one who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death (Rev_2:11).

    Second death hath no power G1849 — Immortality.
    \”Neither can they die any more.\” (Luk_20:36)
    Has no authority or rulership.

    They — The Body

    Shall be priests — Kings and priests–rulers and instructors.
    \”a Royal Priesthood\” (Rev_5:10)
    In typical Israel, the priestly office was kept distinctly separate from the kingly office, but in Christ the two offices combine, illustrated in the double office of Melchisedec. (Heb_7:1)

    Reign with him — To the Royal Priesthood, under Christ as King of kings and Priest of priests, shall be committed the full control of earth.
    until he hath put all enemies in subjection. (1Co_15:25)

    A thousand years —
    Previously, we determined that the thousand years is the literal number of years for:
    the Millennial Reign of Messiah,
    the thousand years to perfect ALL humankind,
    the thousand years in which Satan will be bound,
    the thousand years in which knowledge shall fill the whole earth,
    the thousand years in which the earth shall be changed into a Paradise.


    We will study Revelation 20:7-10, looking at the verses as a whole, but delving into each verse and/or each word as deeply as necessary.

  36. Bro. Dave says:


    Here is a recap of my notes from our discussion of SECOND DEATH, which occurred Oct-Dec, 2018.

    There are repetitions, since often we referred back to previous Scriptures and discussions over the 2-1/2 months we discussed and studied this.

    I have purposefully removed the names of our class members.


    Second Death

    Rev_2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

    Correlation with Church class.
    Paul, Peter, not subject to 2nd death – went straight to heaven.
    Church class gains immortality.

    Not being \”hurt\” [G91].
    Lake of fire has sulfur – a refiner\’s fire. Sulfur is added to purify precious metals. Results is pure, clean gold.

    Followers of Christ, faithful unto death.
    Faithful – judgement call. each individual\’s faithfulness is according to what they are subjected to; what they had to overcome.


    Rev 10 – do not be afraid of things you are about to suffer.
    Faith thru what Satan throws at you.
    Faith in Jesus, JHVH, and victory toward that.

    Biblical guidelines:
    Footstep follower of Christ (faithful in assignment given to Him). Each has different gifts.

    What JHVH expects of each of us is individual.

    Afterwards, people mentioned demonstrate their actions, individual trials and tribulations.


    Faith is a key issue.
    Many are faithful in what they are able to do.
    With Jesus, Martha was faithful as she annointed His feet with oil.
    Other women cooked for Him and apostles.

    Rev_20:6  Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Rev_20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    Rev_21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


    Jud_1:12 CLV
    (12) These are the reefs in your love feasts, carousing with you fearlessly, shepherding themselves; waterless clouds carried aside by winds; trees that are sear, unfruitful, twice dying, uprooted;\”


    hurt. Gr. adikeō (S# G91, Mat_20:13). It seems that they who die that death [i.e., the second death] shall be hurt by it; whereas, if it were annihilation, and so a conclusion of their torments, it would be in no way hurtful, but highly beneficial to them (Bishop Pearson, cited in JFB). Rev_6:6; Rev_7:2-3; Rev_9:4; Rev_9:10; Rev_9:19; Rev_11:5; Rev_22:11, Luk_10:19.
    the second death. Defined (Rev_20:6; Rev_20:14; Rev_21:8) as the lake of fire. The second death designates eternal destruction, eternal after temporal death (Dusterdiek). Rev_20:6; Rev_20:11-15; Rev_21:8, Gen_2:17 note. Jer_51:39; Jer_51:57, Eze_18:31-32, Dan_12:3, Mat_5:29; Mat_10:28, Mar_9:43-49, Luk_12:5, Joh_5:29, Jas_1:15.


    the second death. The death awaiting the wicked after judgment (see Vincent on Rev_2:11). Rev_20:14, Rev_2:11; Rev_21:8, Gen_2:17, Act_24:15, Rom_6:23, 1Co_15:56, 2Ti_2:10.


    the second death. Add even the lake of fire (Vincent).
    Rev_20:5 note, Rev_20:6, Rev_2:11; Rev_21:8, Gen_2:17 note. Rom_6:21, Jas_1:15.


    which is the second death. Rev_2:11; Rev_20:6; Rev_20:14,Rev_20:14, Gen_2:17 note. Mar_9:44; Mar_9:44-48; Mar_9:48, Rom_6:23, 2Th_1:9.

    Jude 1:12 IGNT+
    (12) ουτοιG3778 THESE εισινG1526 [G5748] ARE ενG1722 IN ταιςG3588 αγαπαιςG26 υμωνG5216 YOUR LOVE FEASTS σπιλαδεςG4694 SUNKEN ROCKS, συνευωχουμενοιG4910 [G5740] FEASTING TOGETHER \”WITH YOU\” αφοβωςG870 FEARLESSLY, εαυτουςG1438 THEMSELVES ποιμαινοντεςG4165 [G5723] PASTURING; νεφελαιG3507 CLOUDS ανυδροιG504 WITHOUT WATER, υποG5259 BY ανεμωνG417 WINDS περιφερομεναιG4064 [G5746] BEING CARRIED ABOUT, δενδραG1186 TREES φθινοπωριναG5352 AUTUMNAL, ακαρπαG175 WITHOUT FRUIT, διςG1364 TWICE αποθανονταG599 [G5631] DEAD, εκριζωθενταG1610 [G5685] ROOTED UP;

    trees: Psa_1:3, Psa_37:2; Mat_13:6, Mat_21:19-20; Mar_4:6, Mar_11:21; Luk_8:6; Joh_15:4-6

    twice: 1Ti_5:6; Heb_6:4-8; 2Pe_2:18-20

    plucked: 2Ch_7:20; Eze_17:9; Mat_15:13; Mar_11:20

    Jeremiah 31:30
    every one. Deu_24:16,
    his own. 2Ki_14:6, 2Ch_25:4.
    the sour grape. Jer_31:29.


    Matthew 18:22
    seventy times seven. Wordsworth notes \”The number seven in Holy Scripture is used to signify completeness (Luk_23:56; Luk_24:1 note); and the multiplication of 70×7 here signifies that there is to be no stint or limit to the spirit of forgiveness. The number seventy-seven is used to express the fulness of retribution for Lamech (Gen_4:24). And for bringing in of forgiveness of sins into the world there are seventy-seven generations from Adam to Christ (Luk_3:23-38, Hilary and Augustine). But here the number is seventy times seven, the number of years from the rebuilding of the wall of Jerusalem unto Christ, who brought in the forgiveness of sins (Dan_9:24)\” (Greek Testament, vol. 1, p. 66). Gen_4:24, Pro_19:11, Luk_17:3-4.

    Blood required

    Matthew 25:46 KJV+
    (46)  AndG2532 theseG3778 shall go awayG565 intoG1519 everlastingG166 punishment:G2851 butG1161 theG3588 righteousG1342 intoG1519 lifeG2222 eternal.G166



    Pronouncement of Death on Adam and Eve.

    JHVH gave hope of restoration of Adam and Eve.
    Adam and Even had a hope in this.

    Eve, when Seth was born, declared that JHVH had given her replacement for Abel – Eve had a hope after first pronouncement of death that he was the one to restore eternal life.



    First AND Second death condition – Dead know absolutely nothing.

    Sets mark between 1st death and 2nd death.
    In 1st death, JHVH remembers them.
    In 2nd death, JHVH forgets them.

    Adamic death


    righteous, just

    unrighteous, unjust

    What\’s the only way out of Adamic death?
    Resurrection, then obedience.


    Second Death

    Rev_2:11  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

    overcome –
    From G3529; to subdue (literally or figuratively): – conquer, overcome, prevail, get the victory.
    Total KJV occurrences: 28

    hurt. Gr. adikeō (S# G91, Mat_20:13). See above.


    False systems?

    Adamic sin extinguished

    outside the city (kingdom) – evil people who refuse the Kingdom arrangement.

    For new creation – those spirit begotten
    Diocletian – 10 years of persecution – thrown in lion\’s den.
    jude 1:3-16
    2pe 2:1-22
    Describes evil people who refuse to repent.

    False teachers secretly bringing destructive heresies.
    Only ones purchased now are those baptized into Christ\’s Body – only one subject to eternal death.

    Most people who fear 2nd death need not fear it – scriptures refer to those being selfish and non-repentant.

    Only administered by JHVH.
    JHVH is just – perfectly just – balanced with His other qualities.

    After millennial kingdom – death is swallowed up in victory (1Co_15:54)
    After little season, no more second death ever – mankind has already been thoroughly educated and tested.
    lookup knowledge.

    Q – do we have to accept all brothers\’ teachings to avoid second death?
    A – No.

    Correlation with Church class.
    Paul, Peter, not subject to 2nd death – went straight to heaven.
    Church class gains immortality.


    Rev 20:13 and the sea did give up those dead in it, and the death and the hades did give up the dead in them, and they were judged, each one according to their works;

    Rev_20:14  And death [G2288] and hell [G86] were cast into the lake [G3041] of fire [G4442]. This is the second death.

    Revelation 20:13-14

    The sea is the resting place of unburied bodies.
    Death and Hades refers not only to dying, but to existence beyond the grave (Rev_1:18; Rev_6:8).
    The picture here is of all intermediate abodes of human bodies giving them up to God\’s judgment.
    While unbelieving humanity is judged

    Covers everybody that has died:
    Those buried at sea and land, according to its works, Death and Hades, the Lord\’s final enemy (1Co_15:26), is also destroyed by being cast into the lake of fire. Rev_20:10; Rev_20:15, Rev_21:8, Psa_21:9, Luk_8:31, 2Th_1:8-9.

    The second death is spiritual and eternal, the just punishment of the wicked. 2Th_1:7-9 

    The first death is physical dying.
    Both are included in the overall meaning of the death that came upon the human race because of Adam and Eve\’s sin (Gen_2:16-17; Gen_3:1-19; Rom_5:12).


    [20:36] TR: it says the end of the thousand years. indicates final judgement at end of the millennium
    [20:37] TR: jaws place judgement at Armageddon
    [20:37] JM: Correct TR, this is not during our day
    [20:43] JM: In Revelation, the great company is serving God day and night in front of the throne and in the temple. These make up, from what I have understood a heavenly class of not immortal angels and they come from the ones that where once called to the be one of the 144,000 and later lost their crowns. They are also called a mercy class because God is merciful and they are not rebellious they just did not show enough appreciation and commitment to the calling. The only ones of the called ones that go into second death are those that go against God and persecute their former brothers. They do this with full knowledge of what they are doing but we can not judge the only one that judges is God. Jesus said to the Pharisees \”How can you escape to be judged to Gehenna\”.
    [20:45] Y: few problems on my end
    [20:48] TR: I can’t either
    [20:48] TR: I disagree with that
    [20:49] HH: Me too.
    [20:51] TR: all true Christians are in heaven. God chooses his bride from those but they are not less faithful since there robes have been washed clean
    [20:52] JM: BS teach they are inferior and creates a thing called a mercy class. Check it out in their literature.
    [20:53] TR: I know but I disagree with that.

    \”great multitude\”

    Psa_45:14 – role of great crowd
    Virgins, her companions

    Rev 21:

    No mention that great multitude died in tribulation.

    Revelation 20:10 IGNT+

    (10) καιG2532 AND οG3588 THE διαβολοςG1228 DEVIL οG3588 WHO πλανωνG4105 [G5723] MISLEADS αυτουςG846 THEM εβληθηG906 [G5681] WAS CAST ειςG1519 INTO τηνG3588 THE λιμνηνG3041 τουG3588 LAKE πυροςG4442 OF FIRE καιG2532 AND θειουG2303 OF BRIMSTONE, οπουG3699 WHERE \”ARE\” τοG3588 THE θηριονG2342 BEAST καιG2532 AND οG3588 THE ψευδοπροφητηςG5578 FALSE PROPHET; καιG2532 AND βασανισθησονταιG928 [G5701] THEY SHALL BE TORMENTED ημεραςG2250 DAY καιG2532 AND νυκτοςG3571 NIGHT ειςG1519 FOR τουςG3588 THE αιωναςG165 AGES τωνG3588 OF THE αιωνωνG165 AGES.

    Revelation 20:10
    the devil. See on Rev_20:2-3; Rev_20:8, Rev_12:3; Rev_12:9, Gen_3:15, 1Ki_22:22, Mat_25:41, Joh_16:11, 1Pe_5:8, 1Jn_3:8.

    that deceived. or, that deceiveth. Rev_20:3; Rev_20:8, Rev_2:20; Rev_12:9; Rev_13:14; Rev_19:20, 1Ki_22:22, Mar_4:15, Joh_8:44, 1Ti_2:14.

    cast into. Rev_20:14-15, Rev_19:20, Num_16:31-35, Deu_33:7; Deu_33:27, 1Ki_18:40, Dan_7:11, Mat_13:42; Mat_25:41, Php_3:19, Col_2:15, 2Pe_2:4.

    the lake of fire. Rev_20:14-15, Rev_19:20; Rev_21:8; Rev_22:18, Isa_33:14, Dan_7:11, Mat_25:41, Mar_9:44.

    brimstone. Rev_9:17; Rev_14:10, Gen_19:24, Isa_30:33, Eze_38:22.

    where. The texts add \”also\”. Rev_19:20, Luk_16:23.

    the beast. Rev_13:1; Rev_13:11-12; Rev_14:9-11; Rev_16:13; Rev_17:8; Rev_19:20.

    false prophet. Rev_16:13, 2Th_2:9, 1Ti_4:1.

    tormented. Gr. basanizō (S# G928, Mat_8:6). Rev_9:5; Rev_11:10; Rev_12:2; Rev_14:10; Rev_14:11, Isa_33:14, Mat_8:29; Mat_25:41; Mat_25:46, Luk_8:28; Luk_16:23; Luk_16:26.

    day and night. Rev_4:8; Rev_7:15; Rev_12:10; Rev_14:11, Luk_18:7.

    for ever. Gr. aion G1519 G165 G165, Rev_1:6, lit. unto the ages of the ages, Gal_1:5, Rev_1:6; Rev_1:18; Rev_4:9; Rev_4:10; Rev_5:13; Rev_7:12; Rev_10:6; Rev_11:15; Rev_14:11; Rev_22:5, Isa_64:9, Dan_7:26, Mat_10:28; Mat_25:46, Mar_9:44; Mar_9:48, Luk_16:26, Eph_1:21, 2Th_1:9, Heb_6:2.

    Things that are systems cannot be tormented
    Could this be the END PUNISHMENT –
    very harsh punishment.
    TR – it also mentions death and hades being thrown into the lake of fire. they can’t be tormented.


    Second Death REVIEW


    From G2348; (properly an adjective used as a noun) death (literally or figuratively): – X deadly, (be . . .) death.
    Total KJV occurrences: 119
    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

    which is the second death. Rev_2:11; Rev_20:6; Rev_20:14, See on Gen_2:17 note. Mar_9:43-48; Rom_6:23, 2Th_1:7-9.

    Emphasizing it is a place of non-existence.
    JHVH decides who goes there.
    Happens at end of Millennial Kgdm.

    Conditions, places – hell and death will be put into lake of fire, too.

    This verse says exactly who is going into it.

    NO human, group of humans, can decide who goes there.

    Anyone who still disobeys suffers this

    rev 21:8 is AFTER this


    Isa_65:20 (Isa_65:20-25)
    Isaiah 65:20
    There shall. Note: \”That is,\” says Kimchi, \”the people shall live to three or five hundred years of age, as in the days of the patriarchs; and if one die at one hundred years, it is because of his sin; and even at that age he shall be reputed an infant; and they shall say of him, An infant is dead. These things shall happen to Israel in the days of the Messiah.\” Psa_91:16.
    an infant of days. Deu_4:40, Job_5:26, Psa_34:12, Joh_3:36; Joh_10:10; Joh_10:28; Joh_17:3, Rom_6:23.
    an old man. 1Ki_2:6, Zec_8:4, Tit_2:2.
    filled his days. Gen_21:19; Gen_24:16; Gen_25:8 note. Exo_23:26, +Deu_4:40; Deu_11:21, Job_5:26, Psa_34:12; Psa_91:16, Ecc_6:6; Ecc_7:15.
    the child. Jer_31:17.
    but the sinner. Isa_3:11; Isa_11:2-4, Pro_10:27, Ecc_7:17; Ecc_8:12; Ecc_8:13, Jer_31:30,Zep_3:13, Zec_14:18, Joh_8:21, Rom_2:5-9, Rev_21:27.
    accursed. or, cut off. or, lightly esteemed. Isa_11:4, Job_24:18 h (cursed). Neh_13:25, Psa_37:22; Psa_101:8, Pro_2:22; Pro_3:33, Lam_3:65, Mat_25:41, Rom_2:5; Rom_6:23, 2Pe_2:14.

    rev 21:8 is AFTER this

    Jud_1:12 CLV
    (12) These are the reefs in your love feasts, carousing with you fearlessly, shepherding themselves; waterless clouds carried aside by winds; trees that are sear, unfruitful, twice dying, uprooted;\”

    Jude 1:12 IGNT+
    (12) ουτοιG3778 THESE εισινG1526 [G5748] ARE ενG1722 IN ταιςG3588 αγαπαιςG26 υμωνG5216 YOUR LOVE FEASTS σπιλαδεςG4694 SUNKEN ROCKS, συνευωχουμενοιG4910 [G5740] FEASTING TOGETHER \”WITH YOU\” αφοβωςG870 FEARLESSLY, εαυτουςG1438 THEMSELVES ποιμαινοντεςG4165 [G5723] PASTURING; νεφελαιG3507 CLOUDS ανυδροιG504 WITHOUT WATER, υποG5259 BY ανεμωνG417 WINDS περιφερομεναιG4064 [G5746] BEING CARRIED ABOUT, δενδραG1186 TREES φθινοπωριναG5352 AUTUMNAL, ακαρπαG175 WITHOUT FRUIT, διςG1364 TWICE αποθανονταG599 [G5631] DEAD, εκριζωθενταG1610 [G5685] ROOTED UP;

    trees: Psa_1:3, Psa_37:2; Mat_13:6, Mat_21:19-20; Mar_4:6, Mar_11:21; Luk_8:6; Joh_15:4-6
    twice: 1Ti_5:6; Heb_6:4-8; 2Pe_2:18-20
    plucked: 2Ch_7:20; Eze_17:9; Mat_15:13; Mar_11:20

    Jeremiah 31:30
    every one. Deu_24:16,
    his own. 2Ki_14:6, 2Ch_25:4.
    the sour grape. Jer_31:29.


    Matthew 18:22
    seventy times seven. Wordsworth notes \”The number seven in Holy Scripture is used to signify completeness (Luk_23:56; Luk_24:1 note);
    and the multiplication of 70×7 here signifies that there is to be no stint or limit to the spirit of forgiveness.
    The number seventy-seven is used to express the fulness of retribution for Lamech (Gen_4:24).
    And for bringing in of forgiveness of sins into the world there are seventy-seven generations from Adam to Christ (Luk_3:23-38, Hilary and Augustine).
    But here the number is seventy times seven, the number of years from the rebuilding of the wall of Jerusalem unto Christ, who brought in the forgiveness of sins (Dan_9:24)\” (Greek Testament, vol. 1, p. 66). Gen_4:24, Pro_19:11, Luk_17:3-4.

    Blood required

    Matthew 25:46 KJV+
    (46)  AndG2532 theseG3778 shall go awayG565 intoG1519 everlastingG166 punishment:G2851 butG1161 theG3588 righteousG1342 intoG1519 lifeG2222 eternal.G166

    We probably don\’t have to worry about it.
    This is Millennial Kingdom timing.
    Similar to Daniel, Revelation is telling the future in advance in pretty deep detail.
    It\’s about knowing who JHVH is.
    Jesus never claimed to have the keys to 2nd death.
    Chronology of Rev – the order is basically in order, but goes back to bring the student up to date on topics.
    JHVH does not deal with us directly right now; we must go through Jesus.
    JHVH uses 2nd death to rid the world of evil, evil people, evil entities.
    NO human or organization can condemn people to 2nd death.

    Fire & Brimstone
    Sulfur – complete utter destruction

    Emphasizes the symbolic fire

    Total desolation

    Utter destruction


    Second Death REVIEW


    November 12, 2018 at 6:05 am
    Regarding this topic of second death I have some thoughts.
    First, lets look at the Scriptures quoted above in Revelation.
    When do these take place?
    When do Death and Hades get destroyed?
    When is Satan, the False Prophet, and the Wild Beast get destroyed?
    When does God judge those whose name is written in the Book of Life?
    We know Satan is not completely destroyed until the end of the thousand years.
    Death and the grave is not destroyed until the end of the thousand years when God grants everlasting life to the faithful after the little season.
    It stands to reason that second death does not come into place until after the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous which does not occur until sometime after Christ takes up his throne and begins his judgment day.
    When we read in other parts in the Bible that talks about no forgiveness for those who sin against Holy Spirit, who determines that?
    Are we to judge?
    Can we presume to speak for God?
    Our JW cousins seem to do that but should we fall into that same trap?
    Unless a person completely rejects Christ after knowing him and turns to evil, why would anyone be in danger of the second death?
    Satan is misleading the entire earth, often becoming an Angel of Light! Scriptures provide a warning to us but it is only Jehovah and his Son that exercise the final judgment.
    Only they know whose name is written in the Book of Life.
    It is not up to us to speculate or render judgment. Jehovah is our merciful Father.
    If we are truly desiring to serve him he see’s that. He knows are hearts!
    Righteousness and salvation does not depend on doctrine, it depends our sincere desire to serve the Lord with our whole heart, soul and mind.
    Serving him in Truth, from our innermost heart, not hypocritically.
    When we read the example of Christ in the Gospels and the letters of Paul, everything points to two things, love Jehovah with all our hearts and our neighbor as ourselves.
    So let us stop arguing or speculating on the second death!
    That is up to our Lord, JHVH!
    If we are serving God to the best of our ability and working out our own salvation, we have no worries. Stop judging that you may not be judged! L
    Lets all just serve our God until the Kingdom when the TRUE knowledge of Jehovah will be revealed!

    Whilst there will be the distinct possibility of second death for anyone who rejects Christ, that is not what JHVH wants. Rather, \”God desires all men to be saved\” (1Ti_2:4-6).

  37. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight, we had fellowship and testimony, and also studied the relationship betwixt Coronavirus and Scriptural prophecy.

    About COVID19 Pandemic:
    In ADDITION to its application to Israel,

    A wakeup call – a warning, a powerful message – from YHWH, for the world, for right now.

    \”What we permit in toleration,
    Our children will practice in excess.\”
    –Rev. Tommy Hammett (Bible Baptist Church, Montevallo, AL)

    Isaiah 24 is calling for a reset of the world and its standards.
    A turnaround, a repentance.

    YHWH always warns before major events are enacted.

    When people are deprived of food, medicine, money, their freedom, etc., they can get pretty upset.

    We have to stay as close to YHWH as we possibly can.

    And now – today – there is evidence that humans are trying to learn more about YHWH\’s Plan and the essential truths of Jesus and His Mission.

    Today\’s events are just the tip of the iceberg – a beginning.

    Can this be applied as the beginning of the end?
    Many Scriptures seem to be being fulfilled in today\’s events.

    Only time will tell.

    Revelation 20:6

  38. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we observed Christ\’s Memorial.

    Next meeting Thursday night, 4/16/2020.

  39. Bro. Dave says:


    REMINDER, our Memorial Observance on April 7, 2020, will commence at:
    8:00 PM Eastern;
    7:00 PM Central;
    6:00 PM Mountain;
    5:00 PM Pacific.
    Please click on:
    for connection options.

    If you (or us!) are having difficulty logging in for the Memorial Observation, here\’s a link to an audio recording of an earlier Memorial service that you can download to your device (you supply the emblems):

    Tonight our group studied Bro. Lee\’s podcast about the importance of the Passover Feast, focusing on its history (Exo_12:11-51) and the deep meaning of Jesus\’ fulfillment (1Co_5:7; Heb_11:28).

    Differences between Passover and Memorial

    In today\’s timing, the day begins at 12:00:01 Local Time.
    In Biblical Israel timing, the new day begins at sunset.

    Today we use Gregorian calendar.
    In Biblical Israel, they used a lunar calendar.

    Last of 10 plagues on Egypt.
    HOW to celebrate Passover.
    Repeated in Leviticus.
    Give date (Nisan 14)

    WHY they celebrate Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread.

    WHEN and HOW to have Passover.

    Nisan 14 – Passover Lev_23:4-8
    Day AFTER 15th – Feast of Unleavened Bread Lev_23:6
    Day after 7th Day Sabbath = Feast of Firstfruits. Lev_23:9-14

    Now to Jesus\’ Time.

    John calls the day Jesus died as Passover, while other 3 Gospels refer to day Jesus instituted Memorial was Passover.

    Gives time frame.

    Preparing for Memorial – observing Passover.

    Gives time frame.

    John gives day and time

    In that time Passover and Unleavened Bread became the same thing.

    Jesus already arrested.
    Noon on PREPARATION DAY for Passover.
    A different day?
    This was a Special Passover: If the Passover fell on the weekly Sabbath, i.e., on Friday, they began sooner, that they might dispatch their business by the time that the Sabbath began. Hence, they called it the preparation of the Passover.

    Preparation Day.
    Nisan 14
    Jesus taken down just before sundown, because next day was special sabbath.

    Matthew, Mark Luke all talk about Last Supper.
    John leaves it out, but gives us the time of the Passover.


    NEXT day was Sabbath, the 14th.
    Sunset to Sunset.

    Points out time when Jesus killed.

    All of Jerusalem getting sacrifices together and slaughtering them.

    Exo_12:43; Exo_12:46
    Not a bone of Passover lamb was to be broken.

    Psa_34:20; Joh_19:33; Joh_19:36
    Jesus dies before His legs are broken. He is taken off cross.

    Purge out — Put away.
    Before the Jews gathered to eat their Passover lamb they searched everywhere throughout their habitations, for anything containing leaven or putrefaction, bones, crusts, everything
    The old leaven — Anger, malice, hatred, strife
    May be a new lump — Pure, unadulterated loaf; a proper representative of the Body of Christ.
    Christ our Passover – Passover lamb that was sacrificed.


    Jesus used Passover to institute Memorial.

    Jonah said he would be down three days/nights.

    Killed on Passover, day after was Sabbath, day after that was Firstfruits, when Jesus was resurrected.


    Jesus warned Pharisees (teachers of the Law) about traditions of man. (Mat_15:3)



    50 days after Jesus resurrected is same day as coming of Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

  40. Bro. Dave says:


    Due to our new ZOOM connection, effective 4/2/2020. we will return to our normal Thursday study time at:
    8:00 PM ET
    7:00 PM CT
    6:00 PM MT
    5:00 PM PT


    REMINDER, our Memorial Observance on April 7, 2020, will commence at:
    8:00 PM Eastern;
    7:00 PM Central;
    6:00 PM Mountain;
    5:00 PM Pacific.
    Please click on:
    for connection options.

    If you (or us!) are having difficulty logging in for the Memorial Observance, here’s a link to an audio recording of an earlier Memorial service that you can download to your device (you supply the emblems):

    REMINDER: SPECIAL – on April 2, our group will study Bro. Lee’s podcast about the importance of the Passover Feast, focusing on its history (Exo_12:11-51) and the deep meaning of Jesus’ fulfillment (1Co_5:7; Heb_11:28).

    Revelation 20:5
    But the — This begins the transition to the time when the first resurrection is complete. Then the general resurrection of the dead and dying world will begin.
    This may be an interpolation (A spurious word or passage inserted in the genuine writings of an author.) – probably crept into the text by accident in the fifth century; at first a marginal comment made by a reader expressive of his thought, later copied into the text by transcribers who failed to distinguish between the text and the comment.
    It is not found in any manuscripts older than the seventh century.
    Not found in any Greek manuscript of earlier date than the fifth century. Nor is it found in the ancient Syriac.
    Neither is it found in the Syriac-Peshito, the mother tongue of Jesus and the apostles, written in the first or second century and is older than any Greek manuscript extant.
    It is missing, too, in the Vatican No. 1160, a manuscript which many Biblical scholars claim is of special clearness and harmony with the most ancient ones.
    There are but two known copies of the New Testament, in Greek, ante-dating the fifth century–the Sinaitic and Vatican manuscripts–both dated about AD 350.
    The Sinaitic Codex was probably made AD 331-350.
    Vatican manuscript 1209 is very accurate, but is no authority here because it is incomplete, lacking Hebrews from 9:15 as well as all of Timothy, Titus, Philemon and Revelation.

    It is NOT included in the current Revised Version nor current New World Translation, nor American Standard.
    It is included in the Diaglott, 1901 and 2015 American Standard, Amplified, Douay-Rheims, Rotherham, Tyndale, Wycliffe, and Young’s Literal.
    It also appears enclosed in parenthesis in both the Concordant Literal and New International Version.
    But NOT in the Coptic, nor many Greek manuscripts of later date, including such notably exact and careful manuscripts as the Codex Cantabuliensis of the seventh century and the Vatican 1160 of the eleventh century.
    Rev_22:18-19 has always more or less deterred men from falsifying the canonical books. so probably few interpolations have been made intentionally, usually by copying a marginal note or comment into the text.
    The Alexandrine manuscript, written about AD 450, has the text, and merely omits the words “but” and “again.”
    If we read this passage in the Alexandrine mss, it is possible to believe that the “rest of the dead” refers to those Old Testament Ancient Worthies who were in the world before Christ’s act of atonement – “the thousand years” (see Rev_20:2) – had been accomplished.
    They could not be said to have lived G326 G303 G2198, in the complete sense in which John uses the word, not having known Christ; for “in him was life” (Joh_1:4; Joh_5:40, etc.).
    But by Christ’s redeeming work, these were placed on a level with Christians (Luk_7:28, KJV, “John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he;” also Heb_11:39-40, KJV, “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect”).
    This is the first resurrection.
    These words could refer both to the reigning of those mentioned in Rev_20:4, and to the living of those in Rev_20:5.
    This “first resurrection” could be understood as the spiritual rising with Christ, which is a consequence of his redeeming work.
    It is to be noticed that John nowhere makes use of the phrase, “second resurrection,” though he does use the words, “second death.”
    Both the “first resurrection” and the “second death”appear to spiritual operations.

    In light of all this, the QUESTION arises:
    Just who, exactly, has been given the authority to decide whether a part of the Bible is condemned as “spurious” or “interpolation”?
    Every individual uses best judgement to determine whether it is original.
    Usually determined by whether or not words/verses appear in the oldest editions.
    YHWH protected His Word (forever) and kept the Scriptures together throughout the ages without allowing mankind to ruin them.
    Also, mankind put their lives on the line and many were martyred for the Word.
    Bible preserved as YHWH’s Message – no one can stop it.
    YHWH gives us great latitude in our searching (ex: Isaiah in Dead Sea Scrolls).
    Some organizations teach that all survivors of Armageddon and the dead would require 1000 years to be declared completely alive.
    SECOND QUESTION: If YHWH has protected the preservation of His Word for all these thousands of years, can we understand why any “spurious” or “interpolated” words and verses were also protected?
    These words or verses weren’t in the text, but was in the margins, and mankind included these in text at later times.

    Rev 20:10-15 – Harmonize this with Rev 20:6 and Rev 20:5. There is a first resurrection, which suggests a second resurrection – the Great Throne Resurrection.
    Rev_20:11 – seems to begin another resurrection AFTER Satan is destroyed. Or is this another view of something that has already happened?
    Would those resurrected here miss being tested by Satan?
    First 3 words in Rev_20:1 – “And I saw”. Usually means a change of vision.
    Rev_20:4 seems to be the FIRST resurrection (looking back in time). Revelation is full of going back in time.
    Rev_20:12-13 – These dead are being resurrected. A subsequent (second?) resurrection? Results in looking like whoever added the first sentence in Rev_20:5 understood that rest of the dead are NOT resurrected until after Satan destroyed.
    Most groups who believe in resurrection believe that there will be a first, and then a second. However, is it possible that there will be more than two resurrections?

    We need to be careful that we do not teach others our own bias, our own preferences.
    Interpretation of the Scriptures cannot come from man, but must come from YHWH thru His Word.
    In the end their Truth will be revealed to all.

    Bro. Lee’s podcast about the importance of the Passover Feast, focusing on its history (Exo_12:11-51) and the deep meaning of Jesus’ fulfillment (1Co_5:7; Heb_11:28).

  41. Bro. Dave says:


    Due to network congestion, effective 3/26/2020. we will begin our Thursday study group at:
    8:15 PM ET
    7:15 PM CT
    6:15 PM MT
    5:15 PM PT

    REMINDER: SPECIAL – on April 2, our group will study Bro. Lee’s podcast about the importance of the Passover Feast, focusing on its history (Exo_12:11-51) and the deep meaning of Jesus’ fulfillment (1Co_5:7; Heb_11:28).

    Resume Rev 20:4, starting with “With Christ”.

    With Christ — Joint-heirs in his Kingdom and in his inheritance in the Abrahamic Covenant.
    Compare with Rev_1:18 and Rev_2:8
    Seeing the resurrection of saints back to life.
    Is the “reign” in heaven (1Co_15:38-49) or on earth (Rev_5:10)?
    “He (the Christ, Head and Body) must reign till he has put all enemies under his feet.” (1Co_15:25)

    A thousand years — To accomplish the complete victory over death and the grave will be the very object of the establishment of the Kingdom, and will require a thousand years.
    Agreeing with Peter’s explanation that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years with men, and a thousand years with men as one day with the Lord. 2Pe_3:8; Psa_90:4)
    This same period is elsewhere called “the day of Christ,” the epoch during which The Christ shall rule earth.

    In that thousand years all evil and every enemy of righteousness shall be destroyed–even death [Adamic] the great enemy. 1Co_15:26

    Some do not believe that this thousand years is a literal time.
    I personally believe it literally.
    Others believe that this is spiritual and that Yeshua (Jesus) bound the devil when He defeated him on the cross.
    If that were so, who is this doing these terrible things that have been nipping at believers’ heels all this time that they have been working for YHWH?
    I believe the devil is real. I believe he is a real entity.
    Just as satan had YHWH’s permission to bring trials and tribulation on Job (Job_1:6-12), today’s Christians are allowed to go through tribulation here on this earth.
    I can find no Scriptural nor historical evidence that suggests the devil is locked up now.

    Rev_20:4 and Rev_5:10 seem to indicate that the martyrs and those who refuse to take the mark of the beast will reign with Christ right here on this earth.
    Christians, from all generations, will live here on this earth during the millennium and will rule and reign with the Lord Jesus. They will rule with Christ during those years but will not be equal as they will reign as His subordinates.

    This 1000 year Millennial reign of Yeshua Christ here on this earth, I believe, has to be 1000 years.
    Mankind has worked six prophetic days (1000 years by man’s reckoning) since Adam, and this will be the one “1000” year day of rest (sabbath).
    YHWH set this universe up on six days of work (Gen_1:1-31), one day of rest (Gen_2:1-3).
    The land was set to work six years (Exo_23:10) and one year of rest (Exo_23:11).
    Yeshua hung on the cross six hours (Mar_15:25, Mar_15:33-37) to complete his work.
    I believe there is ample Scriptural evidence that the Millennial reign will be a literal 1000 year of rest to conform to this pattern that YHWH set up.

    The Scriptures don’t tell us how many ages may be in The World to Come,”
    but the good news is that YHWH knows and has already made His arrangements for that, so we have absolutely nothing to worry about.
    The first age alone is dealt with in Scripture–the Millennial age.

  42. Bro. Dave says:


    Once more, please consider listening to Bro. Lee Anthony\\\’s podcast:
    PWLA: Ep. Memorial, Vs. Passover, study on

    REMINDER: SPECIAL – on April 2, our group will study Bro. Lee\\\’s podcast about the importance of the Passover Feast, focusing on its history (Exo_12:11-51) and the deep meaning of Jesus\\\’ fulfillment (1Co_5:7; Heb_11:28).

    Tonight we conducted study group business, and concluded with testimony and fellowship.

    Resume Rev 20:4, starting with \\\”With Christ\\\”.

  43. Bro. Dave says:


    Again, please consider listening to Bro. Lee Anthony\’s podcast:

    PWLA: Ep. Memorial, Vs. Passover, study on

    REMINDER: SPECIAL – on April 2, our group will study Bro. Lee\’s podcast about the importance of the Passover Feast, focusing on its history (Exo_12:11-51) and the deep meaning of Jesus\’ fulfillment (1Co_5:7; Heb_11:28).

    Review \”beheaded\” G3990
    These are \”slain\” G4969

    Historically, the practice of beheading non-believers goes all the way back to Mohammed himself and has extended down through the ages.

    We then resumed our study of Revelation 20:4, beginning with the last phrase of Rev 20:4:
    \”and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.\”

    And they — The Church, the Body of Christ.
    The souls of them that were beheaded?
    Does the number 144,000 (Rev_7:1-8; Rev_14:1-5) even figure into this? If so, why is the number not mentioned here?
    Is there anything in Bible that says the 144,000 are the ones who REIGN with Jesus?
    What about Rev_20:9-14?
    While the Bible declares that the 144,000 are the Bride of Christ, but does it show her ruling with Christ?
    The Apostles were promised 12 thrones to rule over the 12 Tribes of Israel, which from where the 144,000 are selected.

    And reigned G936 G935 G939 — The rulership of earth is handed over to Christ Head and Body.
    \”To him that overcometh will I give to sit with me in my throne.\” (Rev_3:21)
    \”If we suffer with him, we shall also reign with him.\” (2Ti_2:12)
    Those selected by YHWH, will reign with Christ (Dan_7:27 [LEESOR]; 1Co_6:2; 2Ti_2:12; Rev_5:10), during the 1000 year kingdom.

    Part of \”reigning\” includes additional positions of responsibility as well.
    Jesus is King, and Apostles are on 12 thrones, but Kings have a number of different positions in their courts – – example, typically High Priest and Under Priests.


    Resume Rev 20:4, starting with \”With Christ\”.

  44. Bro. Dave says:

    Once again, Bro. Lee Anthony has produce a wonderful podcast, praticularly topical for this time of year:
    PWLA: Ep. Memorial, Vs. Passover, study, found on

  45. Bro. Dave says:


    We discussed our preparation for the Memorial Observance which will be on April 7, 2020, at 7 pm Central. 8 pm Eastern, 6 pm Mountain, 5 pm Pacific Standard Time
    SPECIAL – on April 2, our group will study Bro. Lee\’s podcast about the importance of the Passover Feast, focusing on its history (Exo 12:11-51) and the deep meaning of Jesus\’ fulfillment (1Co 5:7; Heb 11:28).

    The remainder of our time was devoted to testimony and fellowship.


    Resume with the last phrase of Rev_20:4 :
    “and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

  46. Bro. Dave says:

    SPECIAL – on April 2, our group will study Bro. Lee\’s podcast about the importance of the Passover Feast, focusing on its history (Exo 12:11-51) and the deep meaning of Jesus\’ fulfillment (1Co 5:7; Heb 11:28).

  47. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we agreed that evidence suggests that our Memorial observance should be held on Tuesday, April 7, 2020.
    The observation will begin at 8:00 PM ET (7:00 PM CT; 6:00 PM MT; 5:00 PM PT).

    We will not meet Thursday, April 9, but will begin meeting again Thursday, April 16.

    Resume our Revelation study with Rev_20:4,
    beginning with:
    The souls G5590 G5594 — Persons.
    Beheaded G3990 G4141 G4111 — Literally, having their heads chopped off.
    (NOTE: It\’s difficult to understand Revelation allegorically – how does one know what to allegorize versus what to take literally?
    Revelation is best understood literally.)
    All, to be acceptable as members of the Body of Christ, must be will-less, headless. Paul said, \”I die daily.\” (1Co_15:31)
    Others believe the Greek word translated “beheaded” G3990 G4141 G4111 probably became a general term for execution, not necessarily a particular method of punishment,
    Those who had been beheaded may have been believers martyred by the beast (Rev_13:7, Rev_13:15)
    These are tribulation martyrs (Rev_6:9; Rev_18:24; Rev_19:2).
    and may also refer to the victorious throng who sing praises to the Lamb in Rev_15:2-4.
    John could identify with those who lost their lives because of their witness to Jesus and God\’s word, since John was exiled to the island of Patmos for the same reasons (Rev_1:9).
    However, since few of the Lord\’s apostles or saints were literally beheaded, could this be symbolic of deadening one\’s own will and replacing it with YHWH\’s Will?
    Of Jesus and His apostles, the Scriptures mention only James as possibly being literally beheaded (Act_12:2).
    One interpretation is that all must suffer earthly disadvantages, and lay down their lives in the service and defense of YHWH\’s Truth.
    Only those who fall as dead before the Lord (Rev_1:17), that is, who recognize their own nothingness, who totally and completely relinquish their own wills, accepting YHWH\’s Will instead, are ever able to completely receive Jesus\’ message.
    Each \”soul\” G5590 G5594 (individual) must be beheaded for himself, and must be individually united to Christ, the Head of the Church.
    Clearly, today Jesus is not the head of human institutions, which call themselves his bodies.
    Questions for ourselves:
    (1) Have I given up my own self-will?
    (2) If I have, to whom did I give it?
    (3) Am I ignoring all other heads and authorities to be taught by YHWH\’s Word?
    (4) Am I fully content to be thus cut off from others, or am I, so to speak, a double-headed person?
    (5) Or have I parts of three heads–
    some of my own head,
    some of the head of Christ, and
    some of a sectarian man-made head.

    For the witness G3141 G3144 of Jesus — Any one who will \”witness for Jesus\” as the only Head in the Church.
    \”The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy,\” (Rev_19:10) and the more faithful we are to this spirit of Truth the more quickly and completely it will work upon us to effect the change from our own wills to the will of Christ.
    The word G3056 G3004 of God — As the only standard of doctrine.
    The Spirit of Christ works in us in conjunction with the Word of YHWH.
    Had not worshiped G4352 G4314 — \”To him that overcometh G3528 G3529 will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame G3528 G3529 and am set down with my Father in his throne.\” (Rev_3:21)
    An important part of the overcoming expected of us is to get free from the binding and blinding influences of all human systems.
    We fight not with flesh and blood, but with gigantic systems of error, with spiritual wickedness in exalted positions, against falsities honored by time and wealth and earthly learning. (Eph_6:12)
    Do you think it was to give us the opportunity of overcoming, that YHWH has permitted this great Babylon, anti-Christ system, to gain such influence in the world?
    The beast G2342 G2339 — 
    Received his G3588 mark G5480 — Nor the number of his name.
    “His mark” (Rev_13:16). Tribulation martyrs will be executed for refusing the mark of the beast (Rev_13:15). (Rev_19:19-20; Rev_13:1-10)
    Evidence of the importance of studying Revelation as a whole – many of these characters identified earlier in Revelation.

    Discussion of Memorial observation,
    Resume with the last phrase of Rev 20:4:
    \”and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.\”

  48. Bro. Dave says:


    Based on Bro. Lee Anthony’s research, found at:

    I propose our Memorial Observation for 2020, be on April 7.
    We’ll chat about this Thursday and let everyone express their belief.

  49. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight, after overcoming technical challenges (THANK YOU, Sr. Jacqueline, for making it all work), our meeting consisted mostly of testimony and a couple of administrative items:

    1. For anyone struggling with any issue, Psalm 116 is recommended;
    2. Akin to last year, we will observe the Memorial as a group on this, our meeting site.
    Some Christian organizations will observe the Memorial on April 7, yet Jewish Passover is April 8.


    We will decide on which date (April 7 or 8), we will observe the Memorial,
    Resume our Revelation study with Rev_20:4
    beginning with:
    The souls G5590 G5594

    • jacqueline says:

      Bro. Dave thanks for reminding us of the power of prayer. David was a prayer warrior. Psalm 116:
      When Satan attacks us either as a group or one on one, I find it is best not to fight him, just turn him over to God.
      At Calgary, Jesus won the Victory and the blood of Jesus Christ gave us the right to go straight to Jehovah God and fall under the blood.

  50. Lee Anthony says:

    Looks like I missed a good one, I’ll be looking into it. I am quite sick unfortunately, had oldest come home throwing up and been outa school 2days, usually we all get it. So far just me so that’s a plus. Hope will feel good Saturday. Enjoy All😷

    • jacqueline says:

      Lee Anthony, so sorry you and your family are sick. My family came from vacation and they have the flu. I am about to call you and tell you something that happened or rather we learned that Dave didn’t put on here. So calling you now.

    • jacqueline says:

      Lee Anthony, I also referred Jeff to you about interviewing some persons he suggests. Please post your email for persons wanting to get in touch.

  51. Bro. Dave says:


    REVIEW Revelation 20, in preparation for
    Resuming our Revelation study with Rev_20:4

    Revelation 20 is a highly symbolic and controversial chapter in the Bible, not because it is complex, but because it touches on a subject of preconceived bias.

    Revelation 20 is the time when Satan will be taken, bound and put into the bottomless pit (abyss), where his influence will not have any effect on the Tribulation Saints (Luk_19:12-27) who have lived through the seven years of Tribulation.

    Imagine a life where Satan isn\’t around to temp anyone.

    Will the 1000 year millennium will be a time of paradise?

    Will nothing bad will happen?

    No one will enter into the 1000 year millennium unless they are a believer. (Joh_3:3-5)

    Most will live for the entire one thousand years and will procreate and have children.

    Yes, even the curse on the animals is lifted and the wolf will lie down with the lamb and will live in peace with each other. Isa_11:6; Isa_65:25

    But human nature is what it is.

    The children of those Saints will still have to be taught about Jesus, even though He will be with them constantly, many will not accept Him.

    Remember, the heart is very wicked and unfortunately, that is the nature of man. Jer_17:9

    Many of those children will be rebels and with a tremendous population explosion during those one thousand years, there will be probably billions of people at the end much like it is now.

    However, the unbelievers at that point will be as \”the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea\”

    Verses 1-3: The “bottomless pit” G12 is simply the Abyss (Greek abussos), the abode of evil spirits (Rev_9:1-11; Luk_8:31).

    The “key” G2807 shows authority, and the
    “chain” G254 depicts imprisonment and binding.

    Before the millennial kingdom begins, “Satan” (Rev_12:9), is “bound” G1210 in the Abyss.

    The “seal” G4972 indicates God’s authority and guarantee that Satan will not be released until “a thousand years” have passed.

    During the Millennium (Latin for “one thousand years”), Satan will not be able to tempt or “deceive the nations”.

    Any temptation to sin during the Millennium must come from within those people who are born after the kingdom begins.

    It must be assumed that all of Satan’s demons or fallen angels are also imprisoned at that time (Isa_24:21-23).

    Christ will reign on earth without opposition, and His kingdom will be characterized by righteousness, peace, and love (Isa_2:3-4; Isa_11:3-5; Isa_35:1-2; Dan_7:14; Zec_14:9).

    However, after the thousand years, Satan will be released for a short time (Rev_20:7-9).

    In Rev_20:1 \”, the \”angel\” is not Jesus Himself but we believe it is a ministering spirit to whom YHWH has given authority.

    This angel comes from heaven (near the throne).

    We assume from this that YHWH has turned the key to the bottomless pit over to this specific angel and has given him power and authority for this job.

    This \”great chain\” in this angel\’s hand, shows the power YHWH has given him over the devil for this task, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended.

    “Key of the bottomless pit”: The place where demons are incarcerated pending their final sentencing to the lake of fire (Rev_9:1; 2Pe_2:4).

    In Rev_20:2, “Laid hold”: We believe this includes not only Satan; but the demons as well.

    Their imprisonment will dramatically alter the world during the kingdom, since their destructive influence in all areas of human thought and life will be removed.

    “Dragon”: Likening Satan to a dragon emphasizes his ferocity, and cruelty.

    Here we see the devil spoken of as the dragon written about is (Rev_12:3).

    We also see him recognized as the serpent since he was the one who deceived Eve in the garden (Gen_3:1-4; 2Co_11:3; 1Ti_2:14).

    The devil will not be here on the earth to harass the Christians until the millennial 1000 year reign of Jesus is over.

    When he bound the devil for the 1000 years, the angel put him in the abyss, not in the burning hell.

    This burning hell was reserved for his final punishment.

    “A thousand years”: This is the first of 6 references to the length of the millennial kingdom (Rev_20:3-7).

    There are 3 main views of the duration and nature of this period:

    (1) Premillennialism sees this as a literal 1000 year period during which Jesus Christ, in fulfillment of numerous prophecies (e.g., 2Sa_7:12-16; Psa_2:1-12; Isa_11:6-12; Isa_24:23; Hos_3:4-5; Joe_3:9-21; Amo_9:8-15; Mic_4:1-8; Zep_3:14-20; Zec_14:1-11; Mat_24:29-31, Mat_24:36-44), reigns on the earth. Using the same general principles of interpretation for both prophetic and non-prophetic passages leads most naturally to Premillennialism. Another strong argument supporting this view is that so many biblical prophecies have already been literally fulfilled, suggesting that future prophecies will likewise be fulfilled literally.

    (2) Postmillennialism understands the reference to a 1000 year period as only symbolic of a golden age of righteousness and spiritual prosperity. It will be ushered in by the spread of the gospel during the present church age and brought to completion when Christ returns. According to this view, references to Christ’s reign on earth primarily describe His spiritual reign in the hearts of believers in the church.

    (3) Amillennialism understands the 1000 years to be merely symbolic of a long period of time. This view interprets Old Testament prophecies of a Millennium as being fulfilled spiritually now in the church (either on earth or in heaven), or as references to the eternal state. Using the same literal, historical, grammatical principle of interpretation so as to determine the normal sense of language, one is left with the inescapable conclusion that Christ will return and reign in a real kingdom on earth for 1000 years. There is nothing in the text to render the conclusion that “a thousand years” is symbolic. Never is Scripture when “year” is used with a number is its meaning not literal (2Pe_3:8).

    In Rev_20:3, “The bottomless pit”: All 7 times that this appears in Revelation, it refers to the place where fallen angels and evil spirits are kept captive, waiting to be sent to the lake of fire, the final hell prepared for them (Mat_25:41).

    “Be loosed a little season”: Satan will be released so YHWH can make a permanent end of sin before establishing the new heaven and earth.

    All who survive the Tribulation and enter the kingdom will be believers.

    However, despite that and the personal presence and rule of the Lord Jesus Christ, many of their descendants will refuse to believe in Him.

    Satan will then gather those unbelievers for one final, futile rebellion against God.

    It will be quickly and decisively crushed, followed by the Great White Throne Judgment and the establishment of the eternal state.

    At the end of the 1000 years, Satan will once again be released to deceive the nations.

    He will find many unsaved descendants of those who lived through the millennium.

    There will be a very large number as we are told in Rev_20:8 as they will be like the sand of the seashore or a vast uncountable multitude.

    Satan\’s deceptive way of getting those sinners to revolt against YHWH is not revealed, but it will fit into YHWH\’s plan when He destroys those rebels.

    These rebels will come from the four corners of the earth and this is also known as Gog and Magog.

    The first mention of Gog and Magog was in Ezek. Chapters 38 and 39, and is mentioned here Rev_20:8 .

    In Rev_20:4 ,The “thrones” represent the administration and judging of the Messianic Kingdom.

    Those whom John sees come to life are the Tribulation martyrs, who refused to worship the “beast”.

    They will rule the earth “with Christ” for “a thousand years”. Rev_1:7 Rev_5:10 Rev_14:1; Rev_16:18

    Q – Is there Scripture that tells what about people and heaven?
    1Co_15:35-49; 1Co_15:50-58

    Q – What happens AFTER 1Th_4:16-17 ? Where do they go after this? Heaven or Earth?

    Q – What about \”the Rapture\”? Is it Scriptural?
    Mat_24:40-41; Luk_17:36 : 1Th_4:15-17
    Do these \”prove\” a Rapture?

    Christ will rule through three classes of kingdom administrators:

    (1) Old Testament saints (Isa_26:19; Dan_12:2), who will be resurrected at this time;

    (2) The apostles and the church (Mat_19:28-29);

    (3) Tribulation saints (Luk_19:12-27).

    Only believers will enter the Millennium at its beginning (Joh_3:3-5).

    YHWH’s promises to Abraham (Gen_12:2-3), and David (2Sa_7:16), will be fulfilled (Luk_1:31-33; Rom_11:15, Rom_11:29).

    After the Millennium, Christ will deliver the kingdom to God the Father and will then be appointed Ruler forever (1Co_15:24-28).

    The Bible clearly describes different levels of Millennial GOVERNMENT.

  52. Bro. Dave says:


    Exciting news: Bro. Lee has produced more podcasts at:
    They are a genuine blessing.

    What is the Ancient Worthies\’ role in the Kingdom?

    Some have been taught that BEFORE before Armageddon and the great tribulation, and before Jesus\’ return, that the Ancient Worthies would bring the Muslims and Jews together to accept Christ, but before His return.

    The ancient worthies are identified by Paul in Hebrews 11 as those who prior to the death of Jesus demonstrated great faith in YHWH by their obedience. (Heb_11:39-40)
    The reward for faithfulness is YHWH “shall make them princes in all the earth.” (Psa_45:16)
    The Ancient Worthies were the “fathers,” the faithful forefathers of Israel.
    But in the kingdom, these “fathers” will receive life from Christ and the church, thus becoming their “sons.”
    OR, could this refer to Ancient Worthies having a part bringing together the Arab religions, since they respect Moshe, and they will bring them together.
    YHWH ==> Jesus ==> Twelve Apostles on their thrones ==> Ancient Worthies???

    And the reward for the Ancient Worthies\’ faith in ancient times will be their appointment as “princes” of the Millennial Kingdom.

    They will used in Christ’s kingdom as earthly representatives of that kingdom.

    They will be used to convey “the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.” (Isa_2:3)



    But notice that the means of deliverance is the restoration of the “judges” and “counselors as at the beginning.” Who are the judges and counselors and at what beginning?

    Evidently this refers to the ancient worthies (Heb_11:4-38), many of whom were the judges and counselors of Israel prior to Christ.
    These faithful ones will be resurrected to be deliverers of Israel, just as the judges and counselors of earlier times delivered Israel.
    It could be argued that while for mankind resurrection is a process of gradual attainment, a restoration during the Millennial age to the perfection which Adam originally possessed,
    for the ancient worthies, their raising from the dead will be a resurrection to the perfect human nature immediately, with the full physical perfection as Adam before his sin.
    The prophecies concerning the ancient worthies indicate that they will be raised from the dead specifically to deliver Israel. As in ancient times, they will be equipped with the power of God to accomplish this:
    Micah 5:5-6 Leeser
    (5) (5:4) And in this manner shall there be peace: If Asshur should come into our land; and if he should tread in our palaces, then will we raise up against him seven shepherds, and eight anointed men.
    (6) (5:5) And they shall lay waste the land of Asshur with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the gates of its cities: thus will he deliver us from Asshur, if he should come into our land, and if he should tread within our borders.

    Many believe that the seven shepherds are the church in glory; the eight principle men, or princes (leaders) of men, are the Ancient Worthies.
    This designation “princes” is often used for them in other texts.

    In this interpretation, the ancient worthies will be the visible representatives of the kingdom of Christ.

    It\’s an interesting debate whether they will be the earthly representatives of a heavenly kingdom, or, alternatively the visible representatives of an earthly kingdom as typified by the Tabernacle.

    Another issue is the question: if the Ancient Worthies are those mentioned by name in Hebrews, what about all the prophets, such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah, etc.?

    While they are not all mentioned by name, Heb_11:32-38 intimates that they are all included in this class.

    The Ancient Worthies will be completely involved in handling the sacrifices of the people.
    The physical position of the prince in Eze_44:3 was on the porch in front of the shut gate.
    This was a position of controlling access to, and communication with, the spiritual rulers.
    It suggests the total involvement of the Ancient Worthies in the kingdom work of bringing the people up to perfection.
    The Ancient Worthies will instruct the people to love their rulers and especially YHWH who arranged the entire blessing. (Eze_45:17).

    So, the Ancient Worthies play a significant role in the affairs of the earthly phase of the kingdom.

    It seems they are raised near the beginning of the kingdom (Luk_13:28-29; Mat_8:11) and act as the visible deliverers of Israel.

    While some (David, Samson), had glaring imperfections in their lives, Isa_1:25-26 seems to indicate how YHWH will attend to them.

    The judges whom YHWH raised up in Israel were deliverers and blessers of the people, and through Isaiah YHWH assures us that he will again raise up judges; and these, it can be interpreted, will be the resurrected Ancient Worthies.

    They oversee the training and restoration of mankind to mankind\’s absolute subjection to Christ and YHWH.

    They are present during the little season after the end of the Millennial age (Rev_20:3) and are part of the reason for the gathering of the enemies in the last act of evil. Rev_20:9

    And when it is over, do they depart the earthly scene to be ushered into the blessings in heaven? Heb_11:13-16

    The question – does the preceding verse apply to ALL the Ancient Worthies
    Since, chronologically, the verse appears after Abel through Abraham being mentioned, but before mentioning the others, does it apply only to Abel through Abraham?

    My own answer is that it doesn\’t matter: YHWH has it all figured out and it\’s not important for me to know.


    Resume our Revelation study with
    beginning with:
    The souls

  53. Bro. Dave says:


    Before beginning these notes, I’d like to invite you to listen to one of our group, Bro. Lee, and his first podcast.
    I highly recommend it:

    Tonight we began by delving into the thought that:
    second death will not HARM (Rev_2:11).
    (Rev 2:11)  He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt G91 G94 of the second death.
    Every scripture where the second death is mentioned refers to a class of willful sinners, who, in spite of knowledge and ability, love sin and hate righteousness, except this one; which hastens to assure us that though this class will suffer death aside from the Adamic, and therefore, the second, they will not be injured in consequence.
    Second death is not mentioned until the last part of the Bible is reached, thousands of years after the first death is recorded. Before there was the second death, there was the second sin, the “sin unto death.” (1Jo_5:16)
    Only by intelligent, willful and intentional neglect and refusal of the terms and assistances can they cut themselves off from the Lord and from everlasting life.
    They need not be hoped for, nor prayed for, because it will be impossible to renew them again to repentance.

    How are inanimate objects (death and hell) harmed G91 by being thrown into the lake of fire?
    We do not know the physical properties of everything in the universe.
    The false prophet and beast are already in the lake of fire when Satan is thrown in. Do they have physicality?
    Is second death simply destruction? If so, why use “harmed” G91?
    When YHWH and Jesus “speak”, they usually say what they mean and mean what they say.
    Ex: Mat_5:18



    How do these Scriptures harmonize?
    We determined that they ARE in harmony.
    We believe the Bible does not contradict itself, but where we see contradictions is a lacking in our own understanding or in our cherry-picking a Scripture out of its context.
    OR, it’s possible that there are things that YHWH doesn’t think we need to know right now and we have to have faith.
    The earth remains, but YHWH is going to “rearrange the furniture”.

    He who overcomes by faith (1Jn_5:4-5) need not fear the unending torment of the unbeliever in the lake of fire, the second death (Rev_20:14).
    Some claim this statement to mean that those believers who do not overcome will be harmed by the lake of fire in the sense that when their works are tried by fire (1Co_3:11-15) they will suffer loss of reward.
    However, this seems more harmonious with the rest of the Scripture when it is seen as a figure of speech where the positive idea is stated by negating its opposite.
    Could it be that the second death refers to the experience of eternal death, ie, non-existence, in the lake of fire (Rev_20:14-15)?
    With that in mind, no believer will experience the second death; the overcomer will suffer no loss whatsoever.
    The believer who is faithful to death is promised the crown of life, a wonderful experience of life in the hereafter.

    Thus, there is not only deliverance from the second death, but an experience of life to a rich degree (Joh_10:10).

    What is the Ancient Worthies’ role in the Kingdom?

  54. jacqueline says:

    Last night was indeed a deep study of the actual text of the Bible.
    We decided to put aside our long-held teachings about what the lake of fire word “torment” means.
    We let the text tell us and not what we have been taught.

    My personal conclusion is I have been taught the ramblings of men and not what the Bible actually says about Revelation’s “Great throne Judgement” of chapter 20 and into chapter 22.

    Every time I go to the Bible and follow just what the text of Revelation says I find that out of 100 things only perhaps 2 has proved to be true about anything in the Bible, that I have taught.

    It is sobering to have been taught lies all of your life.

  55. Bro. Dave says:


    We began with the question of the Scriptural use of the term \”torment\” or \”tormenting\”.
    tormenting G928 G931 as in:

    G928 – Thayer
    Thayer Definition:
    1) to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal
    2) to question by applying torture
    3) to torture
    4) to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment
    5) to be harassed, distressed
    5a) of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind
    Part of Speech: verb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G931

    G928 – Strong
    From G931; to torture: – pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.
    Total KJV occurrences: 12

    Note the different translations of the same Greek word in KJV:

    Mat_8:6  – tormented. G928
    Mat_8:29 – to torment G928
    Mat_4:24 – tossed G928
    Mar_5:7  – torment G928
    Luk_8:28 – torment G928
    2Pe_2:8 – vexed G928
    Rev_9:5  – should be tormented G928;
    their torment G929;
    the torment G929
    Rev_11:10 – tormented G928
    Rev_12:2  – pained G928
    Rev_14:10 – shall be tormented G928
    Rev_20:10 – shall be tormented G928

    No definition as \”jailers\” as in WS.
    Scriptures indicate victim of torment had to be conscious.

    Time element has a bearing, e.g.:
    Revelation 20:10 YLT
    (10) and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night–to the ages of the ages.
    \”to the ages of the ages\” – It appears YHWH will deal with Satan and his angels differently than humans, because Satan\’s crimes are so much more heinous than what mankind can do.

    Jewish interpretation of \”lake of fire\”:
    Lake beside Dead Sea called \”Lake of Fire\” because it always has steam coming from it.
    They have a cauldron into which they throw sulfur and metal, to cook off impurities from the metals.

    Sometimes, if metal is corrupted too badly, you have to \’scrap the heap\” – the metal is discarded because impurities are too great.

    \”Torment\” does not mean death, first or second. How is a dead entity tormented?



    Because of your actions toward me (Jesus), you are going to be thrown into the fire prepared for the Devil?
    And that these will \”go away to punishment age-during (YLT)\”?
    Where is YHWH\’s Justice in this?
    Is YHWH telling us that this is not the end of it?
    Is this an indication that humans may be \”tormented\” until they finally give in; finally have all their impurities removed?

    There\’s a lot happening AFTER the Millennial Kingdom.

    The Bible takes us to a certain point beyond which we will not be told until YHWH\’s time is right.

    Rev 22:14-17
    Who are these people who are mentioned AFTER the New Heaven, New Earth and New Jerusalem?

    What is their role in YHWH\’s Plan?

    NOTICE: As an aside, if anyone is so upset by what they read that they want to cast stones at us, we request you select small, smooth, round pea gravel.


    Next meeting we’ll begin by delving into the thought that:
    second death will not HARM (Rev_2:11), and, time permitting, study the role of the Ancient Worthies in the Millennial Kingdom.

  56. jacqueline says:

    A reminder, the Thursday Bereans study group is canceled for tonight in consideration for families gathering together during the holiday season.

  57. Br. Dave says:


    To me, one of the most wonderful parts of our less structured study group is that we are not constrained by nor obligated to a formal structure requiring us to cover \”X\” amount of material each meeting, or, complete a study of a topic within one meeting.

    To wit, tonight, we detoured from our study, right-smack-dab in the middle of Revelation 20:4, to study and discuss some topics-of-opportunity brought up by members of our study.

    Our meeting opened with some study group business, THEN,

    We re-investigated the \”angel\” in Rev_20:1
    the angel
    Compare to Luk_8:28-31
    Heb_1:1-14 – deals with Jesus\’ status (above all the angels).
    Michael the archangel – an entity to himself or Jesus under another name?
    After the resurrection, Jesus is referred to by other names.
    Is Jesus an \”angel\”, as only begotten Son\”?
    Lord G2962
    archangel, G743
    Lord G2962
    Jesus is recorded dealing with Satan in the wilderness without the help of angels.
    Why would Jesus tell Himself to \”rebuke him\”.
    Can there be more than one archangel?
    Heb_1:1-14 – deals with Jesus\’ status.
    Would Jesus need angels to help him fight Satan?

    From Roman Catholic beliefs: prayers to Jesus, will be heard by YHWH and Jesus will take the prayer to YHWH.
    Roman Catholics also pray to Mary and Saints, who will petition the prayers to Jesus, who will then take the prayers to YHWH.

    We will begin with the question of Scriptural use of the term \”tormenting\” G928 G931

  58. Bro. Dave says:


    the angel
    Compare to Luk_8:28-31

    We then began our study of:
    Revelation 20:4

    I saw thrones G2362 — The thrones of the present dominion of earth being \”overturned, (ruined, twisted – depending on translation)\” and the dominion transferred to Christ \”whose right it is.\” (Eze_21:27)
    On David\’s throne in Jerusalem?
    Only reference to twelve thrones.
    Is Paul sitting on the twelfth throne?

    And they sat upon them — The Great Company will stand before the throne, with palm branches in their hands, instead of sitting in the throne, wearing crowns. (Rev_7:9-17)

    And judgment G2917 G2919 — Rotherham–\”sentence of judgment\”.
    The Greek word rendered judgment G2917 here is rendered \”condemnation\” in Luk_23:40; Jas_3:1; Jud_1:4.


    Unto them — Christ Head and Body, in the time of the blessing of the world.
    Could this be judgement of angels (1Co_6:2-3)?
    Moses, was a judge in his day.
    Judges H8199 of Israel?
    Ancient Worthies?


    DISCUSSION of following topics:
    the angel
    Compared to

    tormenting as in Luk_8:28
    second death will not HARM(Rev_2:11)
    Ancient Worthies role in Kingdom

    Pick up in Rev_20:4
    beginning with:
    The souls

  59. Bro. Dave says:


    Revelation 20:3

    An amplification of Rev_20:2.

    And cast him — The Prince of Light taking from the Prince of darkness (Eph_2:2; Joh_12:31; 1Jn_5:19) the scepter of this world and restraining him and all his evil deceptions for a thousand years.
    Just like JHVH’s Justice required a perfect man to ransom a fallen perfect man, JHVH’s Justice requires a King to displace a usurper reigning king.

    Unless Revelation says exactly what a word means, it is open for interpretation.
    Rev_20:1 refers to an angel, not Jesus.
    We know Jesus is more powerful – Jesus created the angel who became Satan.
    Most time when Rev is talking about Jesus, it specifically mentions Jesus.
    Rev 12:7-17 – War breaking out in Heaven. Michael threw Satan down from Heaven.
    Michael had great power.
    Later, it says Christ given great authority.
    Later a male child being born of woman – was that Christ?
    After Jesus turns everything over to JHVH we have the Great White Throne judgement. (Rev_20:11-15)

    When JHVH’s time for the establishment of Christ’s Kingdom comes, Satan’s kingdom will be brought to ruin even more completely than at the time of the flood.
    Why is he not destroyed at this juncture? Because JHVH has a further purpose to be served in his continued existence.

    The bottomless pit G12 G1 G1037 G899 — 
    The word abyss, representing oblivion.
    Abyss–covered, secret, hidden place.

    Shut him up G2808 — Closed up – Satan will be fully bound, shut up.

    Set a seal G4972 G4973 — Sealed it over him.
    Commonly used even into the 20th Century to make secret, to render secure against intrusion, such as a document with a wax seal.
    Representing divine care that none shall interfere with JHVH’s arrangement, but that it shall all be carried out strictly in accordance with the divine prearrangement.
    Satan “doing time” in prison.
    Prisoners are sentenced by a judge who writes the sentence “under seal”.

    He should deceive G4105 G4106 G4108 —
    Lead astray.
    No longer will darkness be permitted to masquerade as light, and the light slandered as darkness. Joh_1:5; Joh_3:19 
    Satan will be forced to appear “as an angel of light” (2Co_11:14) in order to perpetuate the delusions with which he has so long deceived the whole world–putting light for darkness, and darkness for light.
    The Adversary has used the nominal church as his tool to deceive all mankind–to mix his error with JHVH’s Truth; and bring confusion and misrepresentation into the divine character and plan.
    Only here and there can any be found who “know the joyful sound” (Psa_89:15)–who can distinguish the heavenly message from the deceiving message of Satan.

    The nations G1484 — a race or tribe of people, usually non-Jewish.

    No G3361 more G2089 — 
    When Satan is bound, there will be no more great counterfeit systems of Christianity, no counterfeit of JHVH’s Kingdom, no plausible and misleading presentations of error for Truth. His power to deceive and enslave men being completely stopped by the clear light of Truth (knowledge) growing brighter and brighter (Pro_4:18).

    the thousand years — To accomplish the complete victory over death and the grave will be the very object of the establishment of the Kingdom, and will require a thousand years.
    Agreeing with Peter’s explanation that a day with the Lord is as a thousand years with men, and a thousand years with men as one day with the Lord. (2Pe_3:8)
    This same period is elsewhere called “the day of Christ,” the epoch during which The Christ shall rule earth.

    In that thousand years all evil and every enemy of righteousness shall be destroyed–even death [Adamic] the great enemy. 1Co_15:26
    We know not how many ages may be in “The World to Come,” but the good news is that JHVH knows and has already made His arrangements for that, so we have absolutely nothing to worry about.
    The first alone is dealt with in Scripture–the Millennial age.

    Should be fulfilled G5055 G5056 — Be finished.
    Until the thousand years of Christ’s reign have accomplished their designed work of opening all the blind eyes, and permitting all who will to come back into full fellowship with JHVH.
    This work of restoration apparently occupies all of the thousand years, since it is called “the times (years) of restitution.” (Act_3:21)

    Must G1163 – Of necessity, a requirement

    Be loosed G3089 — 
    For what purpose?
    Because it’s JHVH’s Word that this will happen.
    Satan’s prison sentence is completed he MUST be released.
    By Satan’s own nature, perhaps to tempt, test, try, prove all those – now perfect humanity, just as Adam was perfect – that dwell upon the face of the whole earth.
    The Mediator will step from between JHVH and man, and divine tests will be applied to prove, to demonstrate the heart-faithful.
    During tribulation, some people repented and changed.
    During thousand years, children may have been born. What are they going to do when tempted by Satan?
    What role will pride – the pride of being perfected – take in the choices each human will make?

    Little season G5550 — 
    At the end of the thousand years of Christ’s reign the whole world will be turned over to the Father. 1Co_15:24
    Satan will then have the power to tempt mankind as he tempted mother Eve. Rev_20:7-10
    In the end of the thousand years, when Christ has completed his work of restitution the final test must be applied to each individual for continued existence forever. 1Co_15:25-28


    NEXT Meeting
    Revelation 20:4

  60. Bro. Dave says:


    We continued our study of Revelation 20 beginning with Rev_20:2.

    Rev_20:2, Rev_20:4 and Rev_20:11, along with Rev_21:1-2, and Rev_21:10-11 seems to show the beginning of the age of judgment, the restraining of blinding errors and misleading systems.

    Does the parable of the ‘strong man” (Mat_12:29) indicate this binding of the Adversary will begin in a sudden manner?
    The one who is going the binding will have to be very, very strong – maybe Jesus – and able to handle Satan quickly.
    Satan is bound at the beginning of the thousand years.

    Does the authority Christ gave to Peter to “bind” and “loose” (Mat_16:19) have any meaning here?

    Does the principle of headship (1Co_11:3) extend to the spirit beings, that is, JHVH is the Head of Christ and Christ is the Head of the Spirit beings (including Satan), so that Christ is the one who has authority over Satan to
    (Luk 4:35-36; Mat_28:18) cast him into the abyss, lock it and seal it over him?
    Jesus has that authority and power.
    But no Biblical evidence that it is Jesus who does this.

    On the dragon G1404 — The dragon of Rev_12:3, Rev_12:9 and the dragon of Rev_20:2 seem to be one and the same.

    That old G744 G746 G756 serpent G3789 — A reference to Eve’s beguilement by the
    serpent H5175 H5172. (Gen_3:1-4)

    The Devil G1228 G1225 G1223 G906 — 
    There is an entity Devil, but here the names “Devil” and “Satan” refer not merely to the person of the Adversary, but to all that system of things of which he is the head. (Rev_12:7-9)

    And Satan G4567 — 

    While this name applies to the entity of the Adversary, it also covers in a general sense all the influences for evil and unrighteousness in the world.

    In other words, that adverse influence, putting darkness for light, and light for darkness (Isa_5:20). That influence will be completely bound as the light of truth displaces the darkness.

    Bound G1210 him — Satan’s every deceptive and misleading influence will be restrained–so that evil shall no longer appear to men to be good, nor good appear undesirable, evil.

    The world will go from a “roaring lion” (1Pe_5:8)
    “No lion shall be there.” (Isa_35:9)

    It’s like a prison sentence that Satan must serve.
    Completely unable to do anything at all for this time.
    Even less ability than a prisoner in solitary confinement.

    A thousand years — the great thousand-year day of Messiah’s Kingdom – when those whom Satan now blinds with error, doctrines, superstitions, etc., will be freed from these, and have their hearts and minds opened to JHVH’s Truth.

    For the same thousand years the work of restitution G605 G600 G575 G2525 will progress (Act_3:21).

    Revelation 20:3

    • jacqueline says:

      Br. Dave, it is just a joy to be able to study Revelation with Christians that are digging into the meat with fresh eyes for ourselves.
      I think I will color this one Father!
      ( referring to a popular

  61. Bro. Dave says:


    We began our study with a review of the pronunciation of the Names of the Creator and Redeemer.

    Mention was made of a recent discovery in Jerusalem where the word “Jerusalem” was shown to be pronounced as “Yeh-ru-sa-lem”.

    We then studied the Scriptural references to the expression “Great Day” and its synonyms – timing, meanings, etc.

    “The Day of the Lord” is used in both the Hebrew Bible (יֹום יְהוָה) and the New Testament (ἡμέρα κυρίου), as in “The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great H1419  G3173 and the
    terrible H3372 G2016  day H3117 G2250 of the LORD come” (Joe_2:31, cited in Act_2:20).

    As Christians, we should not be in fear or dread that day.
    Nothing Jesus does will cause us harm.
    Once that day starts, it is a day of deliverance.

    GREAT G3173 -“Sore afraid” – does this refer to being afraid like of leprous sores or skin wounds.

    In the Hebrew Bible, the meaning of the phrases refers to temporal events such as the invasion of a foreign army, the capture of a city and the suffering that befalls the inhabitants. Many of these appear in the second chapter of Isaiah.

    In the New Testament, the “day of the Lord” may also refer to the writer’s own times, or it may refer to predicted events in a later age of earth’s history including the final judgment and the World to Come. The expression may also have an extended meaning in referring to both the first and second comings of Jesus Christ.

    I was able to find 86 verses (OT & NT) that have something to do with a GREAT and/or TERRIBLE,
    Day of the Lord.

    I have grouped several of these by events, prophecies, commands, parables, etc., because grouping by Book-Chapter-Verse made their connections unintelligible to me.

    There are a few repetitions, since interpretation can create multiple possibilities for a verse.












































































































    NEXT –
    We began our study of Rev_20:1 thru the end of the Bible, by reading Rev_20:1-10.

    In the previous portion of Revelation, three great enemies of the saints of JHVH had been introduced:
    1. the dragon or satan, (Rev_12:3-4; Rev_12:9)
    2. the beast, (Rev_13:1-2) and
    3. the false prophet. (Rev_16:13-14)

    Of the three great enemies only two – the beast and the false prophet – are destroyed in Rev_19:20.
    The destruction of satan is reserved for Rev_20:10.

    The overthrow of Satan, and not the reign of a thousand years – the Millennial Kingdom, is the main theme of Rev_20:1-10.
    So far is the Millennial Kingdom from being the culminating point of the whole book, that it is not even introduced at the beginning of any new and important section.
    It starts no new series of visions.
    It comes in, in the midst of a section devoted to an entirely different matter: –
    It is impossible within the limits of our Thursday night study to discuss all the different interpretations that have been given to a passage so difficult and being so controversial as Rev_20:1-10.
    What we can do is to study and discuss, for as long as it takes us, what seems to be AN interpretation of John’s vision, together with the Scriptural basis upon which our interpretation rests.


    An angel G32 — Messenger; Some believe this is “the Messenger of the Covenant,” Christ Jesus, and his Body, the Church, since Jesus was given “all authority” (Mat_28:18) the one in whose hand is the power and authority to control evil.
    But not necessarily Jesus’ job.
    Would the King be a jailer?
    He is the only begotten G3439 G3441 G1096 son of JHVH.
    In essence JHVH gave birth to Jesus – of the same substance as JHVH, just like a human baby is of the same substance as his/her parents.
    Not to be confused with being the same entity as JHVH, just like a child is not the same entity as his/her parents.
    Heb_1:1-14 confirms Jesus’ true status as “much more than the angels”.
    Adam was created; angels were created, but Jesus is the same substance as JHVH.
    Michael is a fighter, probably not Jesus (who is the Word of JHVH, the Logos).
    Therefore, the angel who incarcerates satan is not Jesus.
    The key G2807 G2808
    A great chain G254
    Similar to Mat_16:19

    We’ll reconvene our study with:

  62. Bro. Dave says:


    We continued with our study of correct, accurate pronunciations with the Name of the Redeemer.

    “And you shall call his name…” announced an Angel (messenger) G32 G71 of God G2962 ,
    “Jesus” G2424 H3091 H3068 H1961 H3467 . (Mat_1:21)

    Well, no he didn’t.

    He said “Yeshua” (yeh-SHU-ah).

    But then again, Gabriel (Luk_1:26) wasn’t really called Gabriel either – in Hebrew it sounds different: “

    Gav-ree-el G1043 H1403 = Warrior (man) of God.

    How in the world did Yeshua, the actual Hebrew name for our Lord and Messiah, turn into Jesus?

    And does it really matter what we call him?

    We also have the Greek spelling.

    The letter “J” and its sound, “Gee-ayy”, again like with JHVH, was not in existence until after 300 AD.

    The name “Jesus” G2424 H3091 comes from the Greek way of expressing his name: ‘ησοuς, which is pronounced “Yay-soos”.

    While we have an English version of the Hebrew name for Gabriel, we seem to have ended up with an English version of the Greek version of the Hebrew name for our Messiah, that doesn’t even sound close anymore.

    This makes him all the less recognizable to his Jewish brethren.

    Jesus just sounds so… gentile!

    But when Jewish people hear “Yeshua”, sometimes the lights go on.

    The name Yeshua was known and used in Jewish history – you can find men called Yeshua in the roll calls of teams serving in the temple (1Ch_24:11, 2Ch_31:15, Ezr_2:2, Ezr_2:6, Ezr_2:36).

    It’s a version of Joshua, and it means “salvation”.

    For many years among Hebrew-speaking Jewish people, Yeshua has been known as “Yeshu”, which is an acronym for a curse: “yimakh shemo ve zikhro” which means, “May his name and memory be obliterated”.

    So much suffering and persecution has been inflicted upon Jewish people in the name of Yeshua that his very name has become a stumbling block and offense, and now he is often considered one of the enemies of the Jewish people.

    This word “Yeshu” is made of three Hebrew letters – Y-Sh-U (ישו), but it is missing the last letter of his name – the “Ah” sound.

    This last letter is called an “Ayin” (ע), which, interestingly enough, means “eye”.

    It’s almost as if without the “ayin” they cannot see, but when the “ayin” is added, sight comes to the blind.

    But sadly He is often referred to as Yeshu haNotzri, which means “curses on Jesus-the-Christian”.

    In Israel, He is usually seen as gentile, Christian, and ‘other’.

    But, as we know, Jesus wasn’t a Christian – He wasn’t a Christ follower – He was Christ himself!

    The Jewish Messiah!

    Jesus wasn’t a Christian,

    Mary wasn’t a Catholic, and John wasn’t a Baptist:

    Mary G3137 H4813 wasn’t called “Mary”, but “Miriam”.

    They were all Jewish!

    While “Notzri” is the Hebrew word for “Christian”, it actually means one from Nazareth (Natzeret in Hebrew).

    It would be more accurate to say Yeshua me Natzeret – Yeshua from Nazareth.

    It’s close, but worlds away in Israeli perception.

    Christ G5547 is the Greek word for Messiah, so Jesus Christ really means Yeshua the Messiah.

    Most rabbis, scholars and studious Orthodox Jews do not believe in it one iota – the New Testament is simply considered important books which have shaped western civilization.

    And Yeshua was a great prophet – just not as great a Moses.

    Slowly, more and more people understand that Jesus Christ is not a foreign personality of a pagan religion, but Yeshua, salvation, is the Jewish Messiah from Nazareth in Israel, the one prophesied in the Hebrew Bible.
    “And you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins” (Mat_1:21).

    So, you may say, Dave, cut to the chase. What should we call Him then?

    So now to the question, having established his real, Hebrew name, Yeshua – should we cease to call him Jesus?

    It is true that his mother and friends called him Yeshua rather than Jesus, but if you know him as Jesus, does he mind that?

    Is it incorrect to call him Jesus?

    There are some who would argue till they’re blue in the face that it is critical to call Him Yeshua and not Jesus, but Yeshua’s coming coincided with the time JHVH chose to take salvation to the gentiles.

    I believe that it was no accident that His Name was disseminated in the international lingua-franca of the day: Greek.

    It was to go far and wide, to every nation on earth.

    JHVH was now opening up the way to all the peoples of the earth to come to Him.

    I believe, like JHVH’s Name, if we relate to Him by His Name, Jesus, then we should NOT let it be a burden to us to change to Yeshua if we don’t feel the need to.

    Notice that in Joh_10:27
    He does not say that His sheep know His Name, but His voice, and again on the road to Emmaus in Luk_24:13-35.

    His Name has gone out to the nations in various versions of the Greek “Yay-soos”, but now, back in His birth-place, Israel, there are report of people beginning to discover Yeshua as their Jewish Messiah (Zec_12:10, Joh_19:37, Rev_1:7).

    Just as Joseph (who, BTW, was actually called, Yo-safe” H3130) was unrecognizable to his brothers dressed in foreign Egyptian garb and speaking a strange language when they came for help (Gen_42:6-7), Yeshua has been out among the gentiles, bringing salvation, and now appears to be shrouded in gentile terms and culture.

    It has become hard for His Jewish brothers and sisters to recognize Him as one of the tribe.

    Let’s remember what happened to Joseph and his brothers in Gen_45:1-5:
    “…Joseph made himself known to his brothers. And he wept aloud, so that the Egyptians heard it, and the household of Pharaoh heard it. And Joseph said to his brothers, “I am Joseph! Is my father still alive?” But his brothers could not answer him, for they were dismayed at his presence. So Joseph said to his brothers, “Come near to me, please.” And they came near. And he said, “I am your brother, Joseph, whom you sold into Egypt. And now do not be distressed or angry with yourselves because you sold me here, for God sent me before you to preserve life.”

    Many interpret Joseph as a foreshadowing of the Messiah – sold for 20 silver coins as Yeshua was betrayed for 30, suffering at the hands of, and on behalf of, His brothers, and yet procuring salvation both for His family and a whole lot of other gentiles besides.

    We know that there will be a time when this revelation will come to the Jewish people en-masse too, as God promises in Zec_12:10;
    “I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn”.

    This has not yet happened, but when it does, there will be a lot of weeping both in horror (what have we done?) but also joy, as there was with Joseph and his brothers.

    Jews will embrace their Jewish brother, Yeshua, the promised Messiah.

    And the joy of reconciliation and family reunion will be mutual, for Yeshua has profited all those years of rejection for the benefit and salvation of the whole world.

    “I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved… they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!” (Rom_11:25-33)

    Our Conclusion – Whether we call our Redeemer Jesus or Yeshua, as long as we do so with reverence, respect and with total and complete heartfelt thankfulness for His ransom sacrifice, we are most likely not offending either our Creator nor our Redeemer.

    Of course, that’s just our conclusion.
    We could be wrong. 😉


    We will study of the Scriptural references to the expression “Great Day” and its synonyms – timing, meanings, etc.

    AND, time permitting

    We will begin our study of Rev_20:1 thru the end of the Bible.


  63. jacqueline says:

    Br Dave just in case you didn’t get my email a few minutes ago. A family emergency has caused Henry and I not to be on tonight. Thank you

  64. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we began with the question:

    Rev_6:10 – How do those who have been slain and are under the altar “cry out with a loud voice”?
    (See Gen_4:10)

    An Answer:
    A vision, a symbolic picture, of JHVH’s Justice, long deferred, crying for vengeance.
    Isa_64:4 (Isa_64:1-4)
    We cannot see what JHVH is going to do.
    We must trust JHVH’s Plan – knowing that He works for those waiting for Him.

    What about Ecc_9:5?
    Not a contradiction, because Rev 6:10 is a vision, crying out is an idiom.


    What is the correct, accurate pronunciation of the Name of Creator?

    I am going to begin with My Conclusion.

    We could invest several meetings studying and discussing to explain why, since the 2nd century, BCE, the actual spoken Name of the Creator has been lost to mankind, along with all the fits and starts and efforts that have been made to recover what, I am convinced, is now extinct.

    Moses was told His Name, but it is lost to us now.

    So, this is where my research is right now.

    …that my name H8034 may be declared throughout all the earth. (Exo_9:16)

    Throughout the Bible we are commanded to “declare the name” of God to all people.

    As an example, in the KJV:

    But what does this REALLY mean?

    Does it mean that we go around telling everyone that His Name is “Yahweh or Jehovah?”

    If this is true, it would seem that the pronunciation of the Name is very important.

    Was “Jehovah” simply used to distinguish the Creator from all the false gods of the people?

    However, as a result of hours of prayerful study, I have come to the conclusion that there is no possible way to reconstruct the original pronunciation of the Creator’s Name, so how are we to declare His Name?

    It is because of verses like Exo_9:16 (name H8034), and Mat_6:9 (name G3686), and the standard interpretation of these verses, many organizations and students have placed a strong emphasis on attempts to uncover the original pronunciation of the Name.

    As examples of how humans have messed this up completely:

    Most Bible Dictionaries, today, say the Sacred Name (or the “Tetragrammaton”) should be pronounced “YAHWEH,” with a “W” sound at the end of the name or title.

    However, the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia declares unequivocally of this assumed pronunciation of the ancient name or title of God “YAHVEH.

    The Word. Yahveh is the most probable transliteration of the ancient Hebrew name of God.

    It is frequently, especially among GERMAN scholars, written Jahweh, Jahveh, Jahve or Yahweh;


    The historian, Josephus, wrote about the divine name having 4 vowels, see
    In Wars of the Jews, Book V, in chapter 5, verse 7, Josephus states, “A mitre also of fine linen encompassed his [the high priest’s] head, which was tied by a blue ribbon, about which there was another golden crown, in which was engraven the sacred name [of God]: it consists of four vowels.”

    The name, “Jehovah”, was a term invented, or at least first used, by the Spanish friar Raymundus Martini, the Latin form of the Spanish name Ramon Marti, who is commonly known in English as Raymond Martin.

    Actually, he used the spelling “YOHOUA”

    The work which he published in 1270’s was entitled ‘Pugio Fidei’.

    Soon after, in 1303, Porchetus de Salvaticis completed a work called Victoria Porcheti adversus impios Hebraeos (Porchutus’ Victory Against the Ungodly Hebrews).

    In this he, too, mentioned God’s Name — spelling it variously IOHOUAH, IOHOUA and IHOUAH.

    The Name, ‘Jehovah”, first appeared in an English Bible in 1530, when William Tyndale published a translation of the first five books of the Bible.

    In this he included the Name of God, usually spelled IEHOUAH, in several verses, and in a note to this edition he wrote: “IEHOVAH is God’s Name…Moreover as oft as thou seeist LORD in great letters (except there be any error in the printing) it is in Hebrew IEHOVAH.”

    The sound “J” was not used in the Creator’s name until the 3rd centru

    But I have come to the conclusion that there is another interpretation of this and similar verses that will shed some light on what it means “to declare God’s Name.”

    In today’s culture a name is nothing more than an identifier, usually chosen by our parents because they like the sound of the name or it is the name of a favorite relative or ancestor.

    For example, my son, Zachary, was named for his great, great, great grandfather, Zachariah.

    My parents named me “David” because of its meaning, “beloved”.

    This is not true of the ancient cultures, such as the Hebrews, where a name was a representation of who the individual was, based on his character and function. [For instance, the Hebrew name Adam H121 H120 means “man” and is the “name” of the first “man,” Adam.]

    The word “name H8034” is the usual translation for the Hebrew word שם (shem).

    Though the word shem has the meaning of a “name,” the Hebraic meaning of the word goes far beyond our simple Western understanding of a “name.”

    Depending on the translation, this Hebrew word is also translated as: fame, famous, honor, renown or report.

    Obviously, this Hebrew word has a broader meaning in the ancient Hebrew language.

    The Hebrew word שם (shem) can also mean “character” and when this interpretation of the word is used instead of “name,” I discovered new insights – for me – in the Scriptures.

    In Num_6:24-26 we find the AaronicBlessing:
    “The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.”

    The very next verse (Num_6:27) states:
    “And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them.”

    How are they (the priests) supposed to put “his name” on the people?

    If we replace the word “name” with “character,” we find that the priests are to place the “character” of God, which can be found in the Aaronic Blessing, on the people, meaning that the people will take on the characteristics of God and it is this character that we are to “declare” to all people.

    …that my character may be declared throughout all the earth. (Exo_9:16)

    With this understanding of the Hebrew word shem we can read and interpret many passages differently.

    The following is the KJV translation of Gen_3:20:
    And Adam called his wife’s name Eve H2332; because she was the mother of all living.

    But if we replace the word “name” with the word “character” and translate Eve’s name instead of transliterating it, we have the following translation:
    And Adam called his wife’s character “lifegiver”; because she was the mother of all living.

    This can also be done with God’s Name, which in Hebrew is יהוה (YHWH – the ever-popular Tetragrammaton), which in Hebrew is usually translated “I AM.”

    And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD H3068 H1961 God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. (Exodus 3:15, KJV)

    This can be interpreted as;
    And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, “I AM”, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my character for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. (Exo_3:15, KJV)

    A problem with the name, “Jehovah”, is that so many people and organizations have represented that name, at best, casually, or, at worst, shamefully, or even in vain H7723 (Exo_20:7).

    On the other hand, it is almost universally recognizable as the JudeoChristian name of the Creator.

    So, for me, I am content believing that no matter what we call the Creator – God, Lord, (Heavenly) Father, Yahweh, Jehovah, Yehovah, Yah, Jah, Adomai or Elohom – we will not know His absolutely-literally-correct Name, at least in this time.

    But as long as we reverently, respectfully, thankfully and humbly invoke His Name the best way we can, AND, as long as we proclaim and witness to His Character as put forth in His Word, AND, as long as we remain as obedient as we can, then I believe we are fulfilling our commitment to Him as well as possible for members of Adam’s spawn.


    What is the correct, accurate pronumciation of the Name of Redeemer?

    Also, time permitting:
    Study the expression “Great Day” and its synomyms – timing, meanings, etc.

    Rev_20:1 thru End of Bible


  65. Lee Anthony says:

    A break is fine for me this week

  66. jacqueline says:

    Brothers, let’s take a vote on whether we will cancel the “Small Class Bible study for Thursday 10/10/2019.
    Blessings are flowing for us. two families will have children and grandchildren visiting.
    For some, it is a fall break from school.
    That takes Dave, Henry and Me away, guests are arriving from out of town in the evening hours for all.
    If some say open it up and let us talk we will do that but no formalized study is planned.

    Let us know your vote, please. I have sent out emails to some also.

    Saturday night is still on.

  67. Bro. Dave says:



    Question –
    Rev 6:10 – How do those who have been slain and are under the altar “cry out with a loud voice”?
    Gen 4:10
    Deferred until next meeting.


    Tonight we concluded our overview study of Revelation 6 by focusing on verses 12-17.

    Revelation 6:12-13

    When the sixth seal was opened, there was a great earthquake G4578 G4579.

    A great earthquake also occurs in Rev_11:13; Rev_16:18.

    The effects on the sun, moon, and stars are worded similarly to Mat_24:29, placing these events in proximity to the coming of the Son of Man (Mat_24:30).

    Late figs G3653 appeared in the winter, the off-season, and were easily blown off the tree.




    QUESTION – Is this all symbolic, invisible signs or physical events?
    NOTE: when Christ was crucified, physically, the sun went dark in the middle of the day (Mat_27:45).

    Revelation 6:14

    The description of the sky … rolled up G1507 could be related to the effects on the sun, moon, and stars (Rev_6:12-13; Isa_34:2-4)

    It may also be describing the scene of the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven (Mat_24:30).

    The moving of every G3956 mountain and island would cause seismic damage in excess of any recorded earthquake.

    Example: Krakatoa, or, if this is symbolic, all mankind’s organizations, governments, etc. Either way, terrible destruction.

    These descriptions of great changes may be emblems that declare the end of this system of things and the beginning of the day of judgment.

    Revelation 6:15-17

    Wrath G3709 G3713, in verse 17, means “anger.”
    Thayer Definition:
    1) anger, the natural disposition, temper, character
    2) movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but especially anger
    3) anger, wrath, indignation
    4) anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself
    4a) of punishments inflicted by magistrates
    Part of Speech: noun feminine
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3713

    JHVH’s wrath is presently revealed against unbelievers by letting them go their way and face the consequences of their behavior (Rom_1:18-32).

    However, the great G3173 day G2250 of His wrath (Rom_2:5) is still to come.

    Has come G2064 may mean “has taken place” or “has begun.”

    Who is able G1410 to stand G2476 is answered in the surrounding context.

    Opposers to JHVH’s Will, no matter how strong, cannot stand.

    Those protected by JHVH are enabled to stand, whether on earth (Rev_7:1-8) or in JHVH’s presence in heaven (Rev_7:9-17).

    The terror of this end will seize on everyone – all sorts of men.

    Nothing of man’s organizations, governments or accomplishments – grandeur, riches, valor, nor strength – can support men at that time.

    Opposers of JHVH will wish to be seen no more; to have no longer any being.

    The disobedient and unbelievers are described as hiding themselves in their dens and secret caves, and vainly seeking to escape ruin.

    Christ’s wrath G3709 G3713 exceeds dreadful; for if the Redeemer himself, who appeases the wrath of JHVH be our enemy, where shall we find a friend to plead for us?

    As men have had their day of opportunity, and their seasons of grace, so JHVH has his day of righteous wrath.

    See also,




















    NEXT Meeting

    First, discuss Question –
    Rev_6:10 – How do those who have been slain and are under the altar “cry out with a loud voice”?
    (See Gen_4:10)

    Name of Creator, and Name of Redeemer

    After that,
    Study the expression “Great Day” and its synonyms – timing, meanings, etc.

    Rev_20:1 thru End of Bible

  68. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we reviewed an interpretation of the first 8 verses of Revelation 6; then, continued our study of Revelation 6, beginning with verse 9.


    The three last seals relate to the invisible, just as the first four relate to the visible world;
    the fifth, to the martyrs who have died as believers;
    the sixth, to those who have died, or who shall be found at Christ’s coming, unbelievers, namely, “the kings … great men … bondman … freeman”;
    the seventh, to the silence in heaven.
    The scene changes from earth to heaven.
    So, interpretations which make these three last seals consecutive to the first four seals, may be very doubtful.


    By VERSE

    Revelation 6:9

    The fifth seal focuses on martyrs slain for standing for the word of God and Christ\’s testimony, the very reasons John was exiled to Patmos (Rev_1:9).

    I saw — in spirit. For souls are not naturally visible.

    under the altar — These martyrs\’ souls are under the altar because sacrificial blood was poured beside the base of the altar in the temple (Exo_29:12).
    As the blood of sacrificial victims slain on the altar was poured at the bottom of the altar, (Lev_4:7)
    so the souls of those sacrificed for Christ’s testimony are symbolically represented as under the altar, in heaven;
    for the life or animal soul is in the blood (Lev_17:11; Lev_17:14; Deu_12:23),
    and blood is often represented as crying for vengeance (Gen_4:10).

    Might the altar in heaven be anti-typical to the altar of sacrifice and then be Christ crucified?
    As it is the altar that sanctifies the gift, so it is Christ alone who makes our obedience, and even our sacrifice of life for the truth, acceptable to JHVH.
    The sacrificial altar was not in the sanctuary, but outside; so Christ’s literal sacrifice and the figurative sacrifice of the martyrs took place, not in the heavenly sanctuary, but outside, here on earth.
    The only altar in heaven is that anti-typical to the temple altar of incense. (Rev_8:1-4)
    The blood of the martyrs cries from the earth under Christ’s cross, whereon they may be considered virtually to have been sacrificed; their souls cry from under the altar of incense, which is Christ in heaven, by whom alone the incense of praise is accepted before God.
    They are under Christ, in His immediate presence, shut up unto Him in joyful eager expectancy until He shall come to raise the sleeping dead.

    Compare the language of 2 Maccabees 7:36 as indicating Jewish opinion on the subject.

    2 Maccabees 7:36 KJVA
    (36) For our brethren, who now have suffered a short pain, are dead under God\’s covenant of everlasting life: but thou, through the judgment of God, shalt receive just punishment for thy pride.

    Our brethren who have now suffered a short pain are dead under (G5270) God’s covenant of everlasting life.
    They were martyred for testimony which they held — that is, which they bore G2192 , as committed to them to bear.
    Compare Rev_12:17, “Have (same Greek G2192 as here) the testimony of Jesus.”

    Revelation 6:10

    The martyrs are impatient for the Lord to avenge their blood and to judge all those who are not among His redeemed (Rev_5:9-10).
    This vengeance will not be carried out completely until Rev_19:2.

    A SIDE NOTE – A careful read of Rev_5:10 reveals:
    Revelation 5:10 KJV
    (10)  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on(G1909) the earth.
    Thayer Definition:
    1) upon, on, at, by, before
    2) of position, on, at, by, over, against
    3) to, over, on, at, across, against
    Part of Speech: preposition
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a root
    NOTE: One interpretation of this lemds credence to the logic:
    1. Jesus is the Head;
    2. These kings and priests are the Body;
    3. Therefore, Christ Head and Body\’s reign will be earthly, based in Jerusalem.

    Revelation 6:11

    Each martyr is given the white robe of the overcomer (Rev_3:5) and told to rest … until God\’s appointed time.
    “Vengeance is mine,” says JHVH (Deu_32:35; Rom_12:19); it will come in His perfect timing.


    Upon opening the fifth seal, John saw the souls of the martyrs under the altar; at the foot of the altar in heaven, at the feet of Christ.

    Persecutors could kill only the body; after that there is no more they can do; the soul lives (Luk_12:4).

    JHVH has provided a good place in the better world, for those who are faithful unto death (Rev_2:10).

    It is not their own death, but the application of the blood of Christ\’s ransom sacrifice, that gives them entrance into heaven.

    The cause in which they suffered, was for the Word of JHVH; the best any person can lay down his/her life for; faith in JHVH\’s word, and the unshakable witness to that faith.

    They commit their cause to Him to whom vengeance belongs. (Rom_12:19)

    Jesus is the comforter of His afflicted servants, and precious is their blood in His sight. (Psa_72:12-14)

    As the measure of the sin of persecutors is filling up, so is the number of the persecuted, martyred servants of Christ.
    When this is fulfilled, God will send tribulation to those who trouble them, and unbroken happiness and rest to those that are troubled. (2Th_1:3-7)

    NEXT Meeting
    Revelation 6:12-17

    FUTURE Meetings
    What are the most accurate possible spoken names of the Creator and of the Redeemer?
    Rev_20:1 thru End of Bible

    • jacqueline says:

      Br. Dave, I had been looking for this scripture where Rev.5:10 says they will rule on earth. “You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign[fn] on the earth.”vs 6:Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.”

      and there are many scriptures that show there will be a fourth Temple during the thousand years built by Messiah and He shall sit on the throne of David which will be in actual Jerusalem during His reign on earth. As a witness, we often wondered if we would see our “anointed” relatives and friends so as to know if they made it. Jesus 1,00 yrs are on earth the way I see it from many scriptures.
      Most Relevant Verses
      2 Samuel 7:12-13
      “When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom. “He shall build a house for My name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever.

      2 Samuel 22:51,1 Chronicles 17:10-14,Matthew 1:1,Luke 1:32-33
      “He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most-High, and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David, and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and His kingdom will have no end.”

      Isaiah 2:1-4,Isaiah 9:6-7,Isaiah 11:1-10,Isaiah 16:5,Isaiah 24:23

      Then the moon will be abashed and the sun ashamed, For the LORD of hosts will reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, And His glory will be before His elders.

      Isaiah 32:1-2,Isaiah 40:1-11,Isaiah 42:3-4,Isaiah 52:7-15,Jeremiah 23:5-6,Jeremiah 33:17-26,Ezekiel 36:1-12,Daniel 2:44,Daniel 7:27,Amos 9:11-12,Micah 4:1-5,Micah 5:2-5,Zephaniah 3:14-20,Zechariah 9:9,Zechariah 14:1-21

  69. Lee Anthony says:

    Yes, this is an interesting topic. Ive heard a couple views on it. The Messianic I am sure had a knowledge of the bible that the modern viewpoint is lacking. I am a believer in taking the bible in the context that it was written both from a cultural and spiritual perspective. There are things that were understood by the writers that they would have known their audience at that time would have grasped that we miss the point on. The KJV bible for example was written in English but many of the words do not mean the same thing and can be confusing to the modern reader in our day. Culture is all too Important. Jesus was the Jewish Messiah, so they get points for that in my book as many christians today know nothing of the Jewish background of the religion they are part of. Its a good study, and quite a lot of food for thought.

  70. Noona says:

    Fascinating discussion Lee. I also was very curious to know what the levels of existence (heavens) are and how God purposed them to operate. I once had a discussion about this with a messianic Jew who not only is a firm believer in the Messiah Jesus, but that many things that occurred with the Jewish people in the bible (and their recorded interactions with God) tell a much more nuanced story about the reflections of heaven than we inherited from Western theology, which is devoid of Jewish cultural/biblical insights.

    My dear messianic friend and I talked about the possibility that the heavens that the angels reside in, may have been a created habitat for them, just as the Earth (and our heaven) is for humanity, and that God’s domain has always existed apart from all created spaces, (since he has always existed) and this may have been the third and possibly highest of heavens.

    Its just speculation of course, but I think that it was interesting that Paul highlighted the fact that he was in the third heavens as though this concept at the time needed no further explanation to the audience that he was delivering it to. So at least I think we can be sure that Paul either knew someone who had been taken into the third heavens, or that he himself was this person and his testimony about the event at the very least confirmed its existence for believers.

  71. Lee Anthony says:

    Nubby Tope,
    Hello, Good to see you on and glad you keep up and read often.
    The idea of third heaven just like many have different interpretations. One view I could offer is that of the different heavens often described, we know we have the sky, which the word in greek can mean, also the stars and planets outside our atmosphere, (space) also called the heavens, then the unseen where Gods throne is thought to be and where man can actually see the spiritual. Note that in Genesis the creation is of the heavens plural.
    Paul is thought to have been speaking of himself here by many and that it was his experience years before with Christ that he was referring too.(Acts 9) In those days this would have been something that was viewed differently than how we do today. I would say that Im inclined to believe it is a place we cannot see with our earthly eyes, and that since the man “heard things a human is not allowed to speak” it is a realm where spirit beings do abide.
    Rev 11:19
    Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of His covenant was seen in His temple…..

    As far as going to heaven…. The new Jerusalem is said to come out of heaven to the earth in Revelation. There will be those in spiritual bodies who cannot marry as stated by Jesus, however we also know there will be nations on earth who will live as we do now. Where we will be and how we will be depends on timing and also on God. Im sure he has it under control and that it will be quite satisfying for all who are part of it.

  72. Nubby Tope says:

    Hi Jacqueline & Co.

    I\’ve not commented much lately but have been reading your comments and they\’ve given me plenty to think about. Wonderful to think for myself now without WT breathing down my neck!

    This topic of 4 horsemen has always fascinated me since I was a kid so I thought I\’d bung in my tuppence worth! As a former JW like you, I was always taught that the Rider on the white horse was Jesus. But this prophecy about our world before Christ\’s Return is parallel to Matt 24, where Jesus mentioned war, famine, earthquakes etc. and the horsemen pictured war, famine, death on a grand scale probably by natural disasters like earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes (look at the Bahamas) but in Matt the first sign was false christs and messiahs and the first horseman was a Ruler of some kind. Amazing how WT never saw that connection! But they\’re obsessed with their idea of trouble following Christ beginning his rulership and the 1914 thing. So is this false Christ an actual person, organization or what?

    I recall reading an article online about 3 years ago about the word \”pale\” and it was mentioned that the word for pale as used when Revelation was written is the same word for green, so this could picture the rise of Islam as green features on a lot of Islamic countries flags. I\’ve not checked this out I confess but those with more patience than me could check this? And fundamental Islam has slaughtered many people. Just curious I suppose.

    As for first resurrection, what is the third heaven that Paradise is supposed to be? Is this meant to be taken literally? If so, what is first and second heaven? So my dead parents and brother; in heaven or still dead awaiting resurrection? If we really do go to heaven then I might not like it if we can\’t marry! I like being human, warts and all!

    I hope all are well, and keeping an eye on these child abuse trials coming up with all 8 GB members as defendants. I hope they get a taste of their own medicine and get thoroughly grilled by the lawyers so they feel the humiliation and pain and misery these morons put us through with their unscriptural, un-natural, un-ethical shunning policies! And I hope thousands more wake up and smell the coffee, and then leave the GB to and WT to suffer whatever fate gets thrown at them!

  73. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we girded our loins and waded into Rev_6:1-8.

    For context, I recommend studying Rev 5 thru 8, with an interlinear and a concordance dictionary.

    One interpretation:

    All seals opened by Jesus – the only one worthy.
    All four horses seem to be interconnected – hard to separate one from another.
    One seems to lead to the next and again to the next and to the next.

    Mat_24:5 – (Parallel scripture.)
    Lamb = Jesus Christ
    white horse = religious in nature, having something to do with Christianity or false Christ.
    At that time Roman generals rode a white horse (or a chariot pulled by white horses) as symbol of conquest.
    bow = power
    Hos_1:5 = bow equals might (strength)
    Jer_50:41-42 = bow and javelin = strength
    Both symbols of Satan’s might (strength).
    Jesus mentioned false Christ.
    crown = rulership
    conqueror = not early Christians, because they had no power, no crown, not bent on conquest.

    Mat_24:6 – (Parallel scripture.)
    Killing of people in general seems to be in context of war.
    Red horse follows white horse.
    This horse and rider seem to be bent on one thing – people killing each other.
    World has seemed to be forever in conflict with each other in various places throughout history.

    Mat_24:7- (Parallel scripture.)
    Scales may indicate how people will be divided and against each other based on economic class.
    Wealthy vs. poor.
    Uproar by poor having to support rich as rich become richer and poor become poorer.
    Middle class eroded to non-existence.
    “A liter container of wheat for a denarius”, for the time it was written was equivalent to a one days’ basic nutritional requirement for a full days’ wage.
    When food becomes scarce, the poor cannot eat or feed their families.
    The oil and wine are expensive foods that only the rich can afford.
    Oil and wine can be used for healing.

    Mat_24:9-12- (Parallel scripture.)
    Death & Hades (inseparable) – Death kills and Hades receives.
    All who die wait in Hades until resurrection.
    One fourth of earth – does this apply to a particular segment or referring to one-fourth of population of earth?
    Black Plague, polio, influenza are all on the rise today.
    This year’s flu strain is one of the deadliest since 1916.
    One fourth of population will be affected by war, famine and/or wild beasts (attacks by beasts (see reports of sharks, alligators, snakes, etc) are reported to be on the increase).

    Another interpretation:

    Christ, the Lamb, opens the first seal (Rev_6:1-2) and what is heard is:

    the noise G5456 of thunder,G1027 one of the four beasts G2226 saying, G3004 Come G2064

    and observe what appeared:

    A rider on a white G3022 horse G2462.

    Could “he went forth” G1831 on this white horse, be descriptive of a time of peace, or the early progress of the Christian religion;
    its going forth in purity, at the time when Jesus sent His apostles to teach all nations, adding,” Lo! I am with you alway, even to the end of the world” (Mat_28:20)?

    Because the first rider is on a white horse and is conquering G3528, some take it to be Christ (Rev_19:11). If so, His full conquest is considerably delayed (19:11—20:6).

    Other widely held views are that this is the Antichrist, or a spirit of conquest and delusion (Mat_24:3-6).

    The bow G5115 indicates that the rider is a warrior.

    The crown G4735 suggests that he is a ruler.

    In agreement with the Strong’s G3528 and G5115, the bow without the arrow could point to peaceful political conquest founded on military might.

    Is it possible that the emergence of this first rider occurs at the beginning of the seventieth week of Daniel (Dan_9:25-27)?

    If so, then the Divine religion goes out crowned G4735, having the Divine favour resting upon it, armed spiritually against its foes, and destined to be victorious in the end.

    On opening the second seal (Rev_6:3-4), a red horse appeared; with powers that could signify desolating judgments of removing peace G1515 and causing
    killing G4969 one another G240.

    The sword G3162 of war and persecution is a dreadful judgment; it takes away peace from the earth, one of the greatest blessings; and men who should love one another, and help one another, are set upon killing one another.

    Not just killing G4969, but as Strong’s defines it, butchering.

    Historically, if we look at what followed the pure age of early Christianity, once the charity and the bond of peace fostered by the Apostles had departed, so-called Christian leaders, divided among themselves, utilized to the sword, and began a butchery that lasted over a thousand years.

    On opening the third seal (Rev_6:5-6), a black horse appeared.

    Black is a color denoting mourning and woe, darkness and ignorance.

    He that sat on it had a yoke G2218 in his hand.

    Early after their demise attempts were made to put a yoke of superstitious observances on the disciples.

    We know that as Christianity got further from its pure source, it became more and more corrupt with error and man’s traditions.

    During the progress of this black horse, the necessities of life should be at excessive prices, and the more costly things should not be hurt G91.

    A possible interpretation is that the food of accurate knowledge (2Co_10:5) of JHVH and Jesus, which can sustain us in these times; such we are invited to buy, Isa_55:1.

    But when the dark clouds of error, ignorance and superstition, denoted by the black horse, spread over the Christian world, the knowledge and practice of true religion became scarce.

    When a people are no longer thankful for their spiritual food, JHVH might justly deprive them of their spiritual daily bread.

    A famine of bread is a terrible judgment; but the famine of the word is much more terrible.

    As proof, all we have to do is open the history books and read about the Dark Ages and the various Inquisitions.

    Upon opening the fourth seal (Rev_6:7-8), another horse appeared, of a pale greenish G5515 color.

    The rider was Death G2288 G2348, the ultimate enemy of mankind, the king of human terrors.

    The attendants, or followers of this king of terrors,
    hell G86, are empowered:
    over G1909 the fourth part G5067 of the earth G1093, to kill G615 with sword G4501, and with hunger G3042, and with death G2288, and with the beasts G2342 of the earth G1093.

    Notice that this use of the word kill G615 differs from the
    word killing G4969 in Rev_6:4.

    The period of the fourth seal is one of great slaughter and devastation, destroying whatever may tend to make life happy, making ravages on the spiritual lives of men.

    John does not pinpoint the exact times of these four seals, other than Jesus is in Heaven, after completing His Ransom (Rev_5:5-7) – any attempt to say it’s this time or that time is, in my opinion, highly speculative and interpretive.

    Suffice it to say that JHVH gave power to these instruments of His anger; they only go forth when JHVH determines the time is right (Mat_24:36), and those same instruments will go no further than JHVH, Himself, permits.

    And, for yet another interpretation, view:


    We will continue by beginning our study at Revelation 6:9, proceed thru the end of the chapter and take however many meetings as necessary to complete this chapter.

    After completing Rev 6, we will study from Rev 20:1 through to the end of the Bible.

  74. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we studied Rev_19:11-21, what the Scriptures actually explain, as well as how they are interpreted by other organizations.

    Rev_19:11 answers the question asked about the beast in Rev_13:4 : “Who is able to make war with him?”

    Some have problem with cut-off date of great tribulation.

    It can be difficult to understand many of the teachings, because there are not Scriptures directly stating a person that dies during the tribulation will not be resurrected.

    Here as there he comes forth “conquering and to conquer.” Compare the ass-colt on which He rode into Jerusalem (Mat_21:1-7).
    The ass is for peace. His riding on it into Jerusalem is an earnest of His reign in Jerusalem over the earth, as the Prince of peace, after all hostile powers have been overthrown.
    The horse was used for war: and here He is going forth to war with the beast.

    Are the white horses mentioned in Rev 6:1-2 and Rev 19:1 the same horses or different horses?

    Rev 6:2
    Thayer Definition:
    1) to conquer
    1a) to carry off the victory, come off victorious
    1a1) of Christ, victorious over all His foes
    1a2) of Christians, that hold fast their faith even unto death against the power of their foes, and temptations and persecutions
    1a3) when one is arraigned or goes to law, to win the case, maintain one’s cause
    Part of Speech: verb
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G3529

    Rev 19:17-21
    The final battle.

    Armageddon [G717] (Rev_16:16).
    Thayer Definition:
    Armageddon = “the hill or city of Megiddo”
    1) In Rev_16:16 the scene of a the struggle of good and evil is suggested by that battle plain of Esdraelon, which was famous for two great victories, of Barak over the Canaanites, and of Gideon over the Midianites;
    and for two great disasters, the deaths of Saul and Josiah.
    Hence in Revelation a place of great slaughter, the scene of a terrible retribution upon the wicked.
    The RSV translates the name as Har-Magedon, i.e. the hill (as Ar is the city) of Megiddo.
    Part of Speech: noun proper locative
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of Hebrew origin H2022 and H4023

    The beast (Rev_13:1-10)
    the false prophet (Rev_13:11-17)

    And then, after Rev 19:21:
    Rev 20:1-2
    and later,

    Do any of these Scriptures support the thought that those, other than the beast and the false prophet (who are permanently destroyed), killed during the tribulation and/or at Armageddon will NOT be resurrected into the Millennial Kingdom?

    rev 6:1-6

  75. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we studied the similarities and differences concerning the Biblical use of:

    king [H4428 H4427 G935 G939]

    kingdom [H4467 H4427 G932 G935 G939 ]

    priest [H3548 H3547 G2409 G2413]

    priesthood [H3550 H3547 G2406 G2407 G2409]

    reign [G936 G935]

    royal [G934 G935 G939] priesthood

    holy [G40] priesthood (1Pe_2:5)

    thrones [G2362]

    NOTE the same roots used for king, kingdom, royal and reign;
    priest and priesthood.

    In KJV

    \”king\” appears in 1917 verses

    \’kingdom\” appears in 316 verses

    \”king\” and \”kingdom\” appear in the same verse 40 times

    \”priest\” appears in 478 verses

    \”priesthood\” appears in 15 verses

    \”priest\” and \”priesthood\” appear together in the same verse twice:

    \”king\” and \”priest\” occur in 42 verses
    Gen_14:18 (see also Psa_110:4)

    \”king\” and \”priesthood\” – zero verses

    \”priest\” and \”kingdom\” – one verse

    Jesus – Psa_110:4 
    Apostles rule on 12 thrones [G2362]

    \”a kingdom of priests and a holy nation\”

    saints [G40 G53]
    (see holy [G40] priesthood (1Pe_2:5))

    Where does Bible say the 144,000 \”sit on thrones\”?

    Isa 61:6
    Isa 62:2-3

    Dan 7:27

    Who are the saints?

    Next meeting –
    Rev_19:11-21, what the Scriptures actually explain, as well as how they are interpreted by other organizations.

  76. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we began our study with the question:
    ”At this exact point (immediately after Gen_3:6), what is Adam and Eve’s standing – perfection or imperfection – with JHVH?”

    gen 3:8-11
    Gen_3:8. cool of the day.
    Akkadian terminology has demonstrated that the word translated “day” also has the meaning “storm.”
    This meaning can be seen also for the Hebrew word in Zep_2:2.
    It is often connected to the deity coming in a storm of judgment.
    If this is the correct rendering of the word in this passage, they heard the thunder (the word translated “sound” is often connected to thunder) of the Lord moving about in the garden in the wind of the storm.
    In this case, it is quite understandable why they are hiding.

    We see this in Job 38:1
    סְעָרָה    סַעַר
    sa‛ar    se‛ârâh
    sah\\\’-ar, seh-aw-raw\\\’
    From H5590; a hurricane: – storm (-y), tempest, whirlwind.
    Total KJV occurrences: 24

    Probably before this moment, Adam and Eve had never known FEAR.

    Gen 3:10
    afraid, because … naked — apparently, a confession – the language of sorrow; but it was evasive – no signs of true humility and penitence – each tries to throw the blame on another.

    And, ”how did JHVH directly deal with imperfect Adam & Eve (Gen_3:21), and yet we require a Mediator (1Ti_2:5-6, Heb_9:11-18, Joh_14:6)?”

    Also, we see Moses Exo_33:11
    Some interpret Face to face as Signifying a closeness of fellowship with the Lord rather than really looking into the face of Jehovah.
    We see the Lord\\\’s face with the eye of faith, for we see the Lord Jesus who represents the Father and declares that he who has seen him has seen the Father. (Joh_14:9)
    Other interpretations claim that speaking face to face is an idiom suggesting an honest and open relationship.
    It does not contradict Exo_33:20-23. Num_12:8 uses a different expression with the same meaning, “mouth to mouth.”

    We see that in Gal_3:20 the argument is, the law had angels and Moses (Deu_5:5) as its mediators.

    Next meeting:
    We will examine the similarities and differences concerning the Biblical use of:
    king [G935 G939]

    kingdom [G932 G935]

    priest [G2409 G2413]

    priesthood [H3550 H3547 G2406 G2407]

    and prove that the selection and use of these words were neither accidental, arbitrary nor haphazard.

    • jacqueline says:

      Bro. Dave, thanks so much for posting so we can review and study for next week. I so enjoyed having Tasha on. She left briefly because her daughter came over. Her daughter is the reason this website was created. Just a teenager wanted to talk to Ask Jacqueline. I had left the fojw site and wasn’t thinking of running another one.
      But Tasha and I decided let’s let the teenagers talk in a secure place about how they are affected, what their feelings are when their parents decide to leave the Jehovah witness organization. It was only going to be one little blog page like I used to have before working on the fojw site.

      Well, it seems our Father and Jesus said, ‘other people got something to say also”, and conference calls to host and they need a hosting site. And so we dug deep and found we had purshase an entire site not just one page on the new DOTLIFE network for physicians and self-help and healing.

      One little teenager made us do all of this. Thank you Tasha’s daughter, we love you and we all have our pages.

      The many videos hosted below even give others a voice. We are thankful and grateful to God, Jesus and his Spirit that we feel every time we meet to think thru our own minds without filtering it thru our old religions.

      I don’t think I would know how to use books and magazines anymore when you learn how to use just the Bible. Verse study, not topical Book study because that is indoctrination.

  77. Lee Anthony says:

    Words are important and Im confident Dave will bring out the meanings, I count on it so I dont have to do it. 😛 A thought I considered is one of the meanings for reign go’s along with not only reigning as kings as in royalty but reigning as priests as in a position of power and authority. Both fit with the use of word king or kingdom however when I considered exodus and peter I saw it talked about priesthood but in exodus as you mention Jacqueline it being “1st mentioned” it speaks of a “ROYAL PRIESTHOOD” so priests with great authority as given by a King or as in sharing power with king(s). I think peter and Exo. Gives us the understanding needed to properly translate the words in revelation and get the meaning as it is in the oldest manuscripts, the textus receptus as they call it has kings not kingdom which to me dont fit with context and original intent and allows for doctrines like the JW’s have created and taught. Though it really dont matter in the sense of our salvation being affected, but if we teach anyone a specific subject it is good to research it deeply as we can cause those teaching will be judged with more severity. (Jas 3:1)

  78. Lee Anthony says:

    Comparing manuscripts from the 2 oldest known and most widely accepted and used greek texts we have 2 words kingdom G932 from G935 Kings.
    The difference in the word used changes what the text says and potentially the understanding thereof.
    Consider the original promise to Israel if they Obeyed the covenant in (Exo 19:5-6) They would be a kingdom of priests.
    This fits the thought found in (1 pet 2:7-9) they would be a royal priesthood
    In Rev 1:6, 5:10, it says kingdom of priests and fits the thought as well, however if it says kings and priests it changes what we find elsewhere.
    In Rev 20:6 it says those of the 1st resurrection would be priests of God and of Christ.
    In v.4 it mentions thrones however it seems that those on the thrones are not the same as those mentioned later in the verse who are said to have died in various ways and are part of the 1st resurrection.
    It says John saw thrones and those sitting on them who were given authority to judge, and THEN or ALSO I saw the souls of those beheaded…. and so forth….
    So this seperates those on the thrones from those who are killed who we know are part of 1st resurrection.
    So who is doing the judging?? We know obedient followers are said to judge the world and angels in (1 cor. 6:2-3) Yet the bible only clearly states a number of thrones and those judging essentially as kings or perhaps just judges in Matt 19:28) where Jesus says the 12 apostles will sit on 12 thrones judging 12 tribes of Israel. So if anyone else has thrones as alluded to in Rev we dont know how many or exactly who it is that it will be, but no where does it say kings will rule on thrones, (at least in the oldest manuscripts which agree with the rest of scriptures) and as for those part of the 1st resurrection we know they will reign with Christ as priests, Christ being a King and priest.
    This calls to question our old thinking of the 144,000 being a number of the church ruling with Jesus. The bible actually doesnt say this anywhere that I can tell, it says there will be 144,000 sealed from 12 tribes of Israel and that they are redemed from the earth.
    Hopefully more info will be added by others, this is what I have found thus far. I have to now question these things as the bible is not clear, if it is I have yet to see it. There can be any number of ways to interpret these things but if the bible does not interpret itself I personally do not like to add to it and teach to others that a matter is in fact truth or set in stone.

    • jacqueline says:

      Lee Anthony, I will look at this with new eyes. Thanks for the info. I had already questioned in my mind about the 144,000. Because of the three descriptions of how many, from Each tribe and the exact number to me meant don’t allegorized this.
      To me Jehovah says what he means and means what he says. Some of the signs can be understood now, because we know about missiles etc and how fire can come out of the heavens but John described what he saw. We see Israel back in Jerusalem but John wrote what he saw not able to understand what the passage of time helps us see and the Holy Spirit and Jesus.
      Plus Jehovah reveals and conceals so now all are looking with current knowledge into Revelation.
      I can’t as of yet see the Church being the 144,000.

      I also noticed that more than the Church is in the first resurrection. It says happy and holy are those in the first resurrection. That can be Patriots and righteous ones before Jesus. Anyone he wants and second death has no power. What a grand spot to be in. 144,000 only never seemed right to me. Will look further also.

    • jacqueline says:

      Lee Anthony, I was just thinking of the Christian prayer Jesus taught us. There is a key to the Bible called “the first mention”. If you can find the first mention of a subject it normally helps you to understand it’s mention in later places.
      Maybe not the first but in addition to not doing repetitious prayers, it mentions thy kingdom come differently in this translation. Giving another aspect. Youngs Literal Translation.

      ” Mat 6:7

      ‘And — praying — ye may not use vain repetitions like the nations, for they think that in their much speaking they shall be heard,

      Box Mat 6:8

      be ye not therefore like to them, for your Father doth know those things that ye have need of before your asking him;

      Mat 6:9

      thus, therefore, pray ye: ‘Our Father who art in the heavens! hallowed be Thy name.

      Mat 6:10

      ‘Thy reign come: Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on the earth.

      hold royal office; rule as king or queen.
      “Queen Elizabeth reigns over the UK”
      synonyms: be king/queen, be monarch, be sovereign, sit on the throne, occupy the throne, wear the crown, wield the scepter, hold sway, rule, govern, be in power More
      the period during which a sovereign rules.
      “the original chapel was built in the reign of Charles I”
      synonyms: rule, sovereignty, monarchy
      “the later years of Henry’s reign”
      Just a thought on different ways to consider the Kingdom.

  79. Bro. Dave says:


    We began with one of our brothers introducing a topic for a future meeting: the use of the terms \”kings\” vs \”priests\” vs \”kingdom\” vs \”priesthood\”
    Example Scriptures using different translations:

    Then we studied
    and focused on the ending portion of the verse, \”to her husband WITH [H5973] her\”, and its implications, especially to women historically all the way down through today.

    deceived [G538]

    beguiled [G1818 G1537 G538]

    From this beginning, our sisters led a spirited Scriptural discussion of the \”Eve effect\” [my term] and how it has been used detrimentally by various organizations down through history all the way through the current time.

    Next meeting we will address the question,
    ”At this exact point (immediately after Gen_3:6), what is Adam and Eve’s standing – perfection or imperfection – with JHVH?”

    And, ”How did JHVH directly deal with imperfect Adam & Eve (Gen 3:21), and yet we require a Mediator (1Ti_2:5-6, Heb_9:11-15, Joh_14:6)?”

  80. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we completed a quick overview of:
    Strong\’s meanings for the uses of faith, faithful and faithfulness in the King James Version (KJV):

    Occurs only twice in KJV of OT

    H529 H539

    H530 H529 H539

    245x in KJV of NT
    G3640 – 5 times in negative
    G4102 – about 240 times

    Occurs 28x interchangeably with FAITHFULNESS in KJV of OT
    H530 H529 H539
    H540 H539

    54 times in KJV of NT
    primarily as G4103 G3982

    Occurs 19x interchangeably with FAITHFUL in KJV of OT
    H530 H529 H539

    ZERO times in KJV of NT

    We discussed how we can WITNESS our faith, to JHVH and to others.

    For its detailed commentary mixed with Scripture, we started with Heb_11:1 AMPLIFIED:
    (1) NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].

    We discussed how we witness from a simple faith of KNOWING the sun will appear in the morning, up to and including a more complex faith in the surety of the Millennial Kingdom, the absolute certainty of the fulfillment of Rev_21:4, and beyond.

    We continued by beginning studying about Adam and Eve (Gen_3:6-8)

    Next meeting we will begin with the question,
    \”At this exact point (immediately after Gen_3:6), what is Adam and Eve\’s standing – perfection or imperfection – with JHVH?\”

    And, \”how did JHVH directly deal with imperfect Adam & Eve (Gen_3:21), and yet we require a Mediator (1Ti_2:5-6, Heb_9:11-15, Joh_14:6)?\”

  81. Bro. Dave says:


    First we reviewed last week\’s discussion of \”the Mark of the Beast\”:
    We studied:
    1. Other groups\’ interpretations, such as the Watchtower, Bible Students, etc.
    2. Possible timing of the events,
    3. Historical context of similar events.

    In light of recent events, we discussed \”demonic possession\”:
    Judas – Satan entered into him.
    Are some cases identified as \”mentally ill\” actually \”demonic possession\”?

    Jesus cast out demons.
    Isn\’t that what needs to happen today?

    Someone commits terrible crime.
    When asked why, many times the perpetrator says, \”Something just came over me\”.

    Satan does not read minds, but he can see what we\’re looking at.

    Demons can enter that mind because person stepped over into demons\’ territory.
    Demons cannot enter into body where Holy Spirit dwells.
    So these demons need to be removed – HOW?
    Victim has to subject themselves to JHVH first, then fight against satan.
    James 4:7
    Submit to … God — so ye shall be among “the humble,” Jas_4:6; also Jas_4:10; 1Pe_5:6.
    Resist … devil — Under his banner pride and envy are enlisted in the world; resist his temptations to these. Faith, humble prayers, and heavenly wisdom, are the weapons of resistance. The language is taken from warfare. “Submit” as a good soldier puts himself in complete subjection to his captain. “Resist,” stand bravely against.
    he will flee [G5343] — Translate, “he shall flee.” For it is a promise of God, not a mere assurance from man to man [Alford]. He shall flee worsted as he did from Christ.

    Must call on JHVH

    NEXT Meeting:
    1. the meaning and usage of faith, faithful, and faithfulness;
    2. the Mediator (used six times in KJV New Testament (Gal_3:19-20; Heb_8:6; Heb_9:15; Heb_12:24; also the verb, Heb_6:17, Greek \”mediated\’), especially in light of the Hebrew meanings of the words in Gen_3:6, Gen_3:8 and Gen_3:21.
    3. We will study Rev_19:11-21, what the Scriptures actually explain, as well as how they are interpreted by the JW\’s, the BS\’s and others.

  82. Lee Anthony says:

    Wanted to add to this Dave since I had not had a chance to restudy or think about this. I think we missed quite a bit in the study by not looking at the whole context when we read about this mark, it goes a lot farther than we see in just the few verses mentioned. The events of the past are true, but certain things stand out w/ scripture. 1st it specifically says on right hand or forehead… Also the chapters 13-16 are All in same context and timeframe, if read carefully. The mark is also associated in chap 13-16 (Same context) looking at the timeframe and the many angels who appear in chap. 15 and the Final 7 angels are spoken of in chap. 15 all spoken of in context with those who had or had not taken the mark. Last angels speak of the last plagues are told to go out and pour out these plagues in chapter 16, all those who have the mark are the ones affected here. Jesus told us to watch, and this is something we should certainly watch for cause some of what happens here was spoken of by Jesus pertaining to end times, our times… Its hard to stop short with the simple long time protestant view, no offense to those who take this view, It is deeper than we realize according to the scriptures.

  83. Bro. Dave says:


    From one of our members’ suggestion, tonight we asked the question:
    In the end times, why will mankind WILLINGLY be sealed with the “Mark of the Beast”?

    We studied:
    Rev_13:1-18 , especially Rev_13:15-17

    and the meanings of:
    The mark [G5480] is equivalent to the name [G3686 G1097] of the beast [G2342] and the number [G706 G142] of his name [G3686 G1097].

    Possible interpretation:
    Was this fulfilled by Holy Roman Empire?
    Everything written in Rev 13:15-17 has been accomplished by Holy Roman Empire?
    Was unique – was a universal church.
    If everyone in a village did not submit, they would execute entire village.
    Rice Christians – those who adopted Catholic religion in return for material benefit instead for religious reasons.
    Many Rice Christians overtly converted, but covertly kept their beliefs.
    Therefore, the second beast – and the Man of Sin, and the AntiChrist – was the Holy Roman Empire?


    While we didn’t EXACTLY get to answering the question, why will mankind WILLINGLY take up the “Mark of the Beast”,
    here are some “imagining” points that apply equally well to a past or future event:
    Imagine living in a world where you are the enemy of the state because you believe and worship the true God, JHVH.
    Imagine having to choose between JHVH and the access to money and credit so you can buy groceries, clothing or anything for your family.
    Imagine a world where your family is in need, and the “things” of life are abundant and readily available, but the price tag is your life.

    NEXT MEETING, 8/2/2019, we will have a quick discussion of the Biblical use of “faith, faithful, faithfulness”, and the meaning of the Hebrew words in selected Scriptures in Genesis.

    • jacqueline says:

      Bro. Dave I too will have to go over this in Revelation. It is sometimes difficult if it is a future event, So I will do my due diligence and study this further. Last night’s study was insightful but a little too deep for my brain, lol.
      I just wanted to post some of the breakdowns of what I am trying to do to put Revelation in little bite-size and digestive pieces. One thing I have learned is hundreds of years can be between 2 thoughts in a sentence. Like Jesus and Isa 61:1.

      Revelation 1:19 sets three time periods to the book – what you have seen, what is now, and what will happen afterward. The first time period records the vision of the Son of Man (Revelation 1:10-20), which refers to his Resurrection. The second time period includes the messages to the Seven Churches, Chapters 2 and 3, in which the word repent occurs seven times. The third time period comprises the future (4-22), which presents a split-stage effect, offering scenes of both heaven and earth. Chapter 4 begins scenes of heavenly worship, which are interspersed throughout and provide continuity to this intriguing text but also offer a contrast to the terrifying images during the Tribulation on The Revelation to John often reflects imagery found in Hebrew Scripture, such as the Books of Job, Daniel, and Ezekiel. For example, the Son of Man in Daniel 7:13 is referenced in Revelation 1:13 and 14:14. Jesus calls himself the Son of Man in all Four Gospels, fulfilling the destiny of the Messianic figure in the Book of Daniel.

      The number seven resounds throughout Revelation and often serves as a key to important events. There are the seven Churches, and the seven seals, trumpets, and bowls. There are seven angels who stand before the Lord (8:2). One also speaks of the seven Blessings or Beatitudes of Revelation, as found in 1:3, 14:13, 16:15, 19:9, 20:6, 22:7, and 22:14. Following the proclamation of the Kingdom of God (11:15), seven spiritual figures are revealed: the Woman clothed with the sun (12:1); the dragon (12:3), that ancient serpent of Genesis, who is called the devil and Satan (12:9); the male child, destined to rule all nations with an iron rod (12:5); Michael (12:7); the sea beast (13:1); the land beast (13:11), who implanted the mark- of the beast; and the Lamb of God (14:1). earth (7:14).

  84. Rene says:

    Hello Br. Dave

    I just wanted to take a minute to let you know how much I appreciate your contributions to the site. I especially enjoy the depth of knowledge and mild temperament of spirit that you bring to our discussions every Thursday. I appreciate how every discussion is open, but everything is weighed against the glorification of God and if our conclusions about scripture accomplish that. I appreciate how disagreements about scriptural interpretations are addressed with patient reasoning and long suffering just as the scriptures outline how believers should address disagreements. Thank you also for taking the time to post a summary for those of us that are not able to attend on Thursday, we all really appreciate it. As you know my health doesn’t always allow me to do what I would like to do, and it is nice to know that I can find out what I missed and add comments if I think of anything relevant to add.

    Please keep up the good work as a good example of what a minister to the flock is and should be, a patient and loving counselor.

  85. traveler says:

    Bro Dave, should watch the length there brother. House keeping, interesting you should put it that way . For those who have a good deal of scriptural study under their belt consideration, reason and logic on the scriptures should be a simple matter without throwing scripture back and forth. I thought this was a conversation. Independent thought and a stand on that thought is what each person stands before God with. After centuries ending in a prophetically predicted state where mankind loses touch with any way to be saved, in other words to find God, the time was cut short so that some flesh might be saved. There is no mention of religion not being present among mankind though at Armageddon, only that it will end with its influence causing the state in which of mankind loses the ears to hear and the eye to see. So putting your house in order I assume was your confident reason behind this last post; the confidence of the crusaders, the JW’s and all those who read over and over the ideas that lead to no logical conclusions.

    Sharing thought to learn is just that, take what you can. I believe it when you say you are reasoning on the scriptures but again and again it’s a you tube video, or this minister, or that. Always some source where some man is telling us that he reasoned through and we should see the light based on his credentials.

    The spirit of understanding dose not inspire, that was already done. This might be a place to look for understanding. I would suggest looking into the nature of holy spirit and the differing conditions it is given to achieve several different goals, gifts, and adoption. I am just trying to get people to step back and look at the whole picture to make sense of “why” this reality is in this state, under God’s control, or in this case apparent lack of it. Satan is the god of this system. This system, that system, God’s system, god’s system Jesus returning the system he is given control over so that it can be returned to it’s original state, so that it can be handed back over to Yahweh.

    So good luck with taking the lead to set this house/site in order, although I believe Jacqueline is doing a better job at running the site than you or I would. Thanks for your thoughts I believe they were honestly meant to enlighten me and as such I appreciate the effort.

    • jacqueline says:

      Traveler, may I please ask that you let Admin decide on the length of a commenters reply. Our Hosts of the Free Conference Calls Forums have no restrictions on their posts lengths.

      We want to respect each other and attribute perceived errors to the correct person. I am the one putting the video at the end of every page. We have nations that don’t have access to “YouTube” but can view it if hosted by a site, not on their banned list.
      Ex Jehovah witnesses are not the only Christians, we are all of the body of Christ and the Spirit is with other members also of the Christian fellowship such as the posted youtube videos below.

      If it is an Administration problem, please address the admin and all three of us will talk about it and decide if there is merit to a complaint. Thank you

  86. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we concluded our study as presented by one of our members:

    Synopsis: There are two issues:
    first God’s sovereign free will and counsel;
    second man’s freedom of choice.

    Does God create, call, and/or elect particular individuals for the completion of His Plan, unmoved by any quality or condition in those particular individuals, and without them having any will or choice in the matter, while leaving others to exercise their free will?

    predestination G4309 G4253 G3724 G3725

    Synonyms: Foreordination, preappointment, predetermined path

    Scripture: Act_2:23, Act_13:48, Rom_8:29-30, 1Co_2:7, Eph_1:5, Eph_1:11.

    Related ideas: foreknowledge, eternal purpose

    Greek References: προοριζω (proorizo) 4309 (Strong)

    God\’s sovereign free will – does He do what He wants with whomever He chooses – and nothing those chosen people can do about it?

    Jon_1:17 THRU

    JHVH wants Job to interact as person.

    10 just men.
    JHVH knew there weren\’t 10 just men when He agreed to lower the number.

    Is it possible that JHVH likes to discuss some matters with His creation, and is willing to, as it were, bargain?

    From the Scriptures, JHVH will not change what He\’s going to do, but He appears to make concessions to the steps toward accomplishing His Will.

    Is it possible a platypus is a concession in His creation?
    All these parts that just don\’t go together.


    Did Jesus have a choice to say yes or no?

    Questions to consider:
    Did Adam, Eve and Satan have a choice?

    Satan is Father of the lie.
    If Satan was predestined to be evil, then JHVH would be Father of the lie?

    Satan had a choice to be what he was supposed to be, but wanted to be more.
    Was Satan supposed to help Adam & Eve make the world a paradise?

    Are we confusing being \”called\” [G2822] with being predestined?
    Ex: Moses

    Only thing that is predestined is JHVH\’s Word.
    Especially prophecy.
    Ex: Chess – JHVH knows every move and its result.
    Joh_3:16 – Humans care allowed to refuse and resist.

    Is it true:
    Mankind has free will.
    But when JHVH decides to use someone, He will use that person for whatever role He wishes, no matter what that person wishes.


    Prophecy during at end times.
    People from angels to humans willingly taking up the mark of the beast.

    QUESTION – In the end times, why will mankind WILLINGLY take up the \”Mark of the Beast\”?

  87. Bro Dave says:

    Bro Dave reply to Travelers:

    A few housekeeping items first.
    While all of our group asks for Holy Spirit to help us in our understanding:
    No one in our group claims to be under inspiration, so our own understanding is just that: our own.
    No one expects another member to accept someone else\’s understanding without solid Scriptural support (not interpretive) .
    Each person\’s understanding is as likely to contain error as another\’s.

    So with that out of the way,

    Predestination, as I scripturally understand it, means that JHVH decided before creating human beings what he wanted them to be like (Gen_1:26-31)

    But, JHVH knows everything from the end to the beginning (Isa_46:10).
    JHVH had already seen what was going to happen with Adam.
    JHVH already knew that Adam would sin and man would need Redeemer.

    Adam still made his own choice; JHVH had already seen what Adam\’s choice was going to be before Adam made it.

    In JHVH\’s Plan, He purposed salvation and eternal life for anyone who would accept His Son Jesus Christ (Mat_25:34, 1Pe_1:17-20).

    Even though there will be the distinct possibility of second death for anyone who rejects Christ, that is not what JHVH wants. Rather, \”God desires all men to be saved\” (1Ti_2:4-6).

    Certain creeds say that JHVH chose particular individuals to be saved without any consideration whatsoever of a person’s worthiness or disposition.

    Those whom JHVH chose were no more deserving of, or disposed toward, JHVH’s grace than those whom JHVH passed by, and nobody (except JHVH) had any choice in the matter.

    By not choosing the rest of humankind, JHVH effectively, if not deliberately, consigned them to eternal damnation —again with no quality or disposition in them moving JHVH to decide their destiny.

    None of them, it is claimed, had any personal choice or say in it, and cannot change what JHVH has effectively decreed for them.

    As students of the Scriptures, we know the error in such human theories and teachings; nonetheless, many people still accept them as \”truth\”.

    The heavenly inheritance which the Bride of Christ (the Church; the Body of Christ) obtains is secure, because, that group, or class. was predestined from the beginning and are sealed until the end, according to the sovereign purpose of JHVH who works all things according to the counsel of His will (Eph_1:13-14).

    It\’s also true that anyone can reject JHVH’s purpose for them.

    As examples:

    JHVH purposed that Adam and Eve should not eat of a certain tree, yet they went contrary to God’s will (Gen_3:1-6).

    Jesus wanted to gather the people of Jerusalem to himself, but they were unwilling, rejected their destiny, and their city was made desolate (Mat_23:37-38).

    The Pharisees and lawyers refused to be baptized by John, \”rejecting God’s counsel for themselves\” (Luk_7:30).

    According to His purpose, JHVH has called tthe class whom he foreknew and predestined, and the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable (Rom_8:28-29, Rom_11:29).

    But this does not mean that the gifts and calling of God are unconditional or irresistible.

    The condition \”if you continue in…\” has always been a part of JHVH’s calling and counsel; we humans, as individuals, choose whether or not to fulfill that condition (Rom_11:22, Col_1:22-23).

    God, before the world began, pre-ordained that His Son Jesus Christ would die for the sins of the world (Act_2:23, Act_4:27-28, 1Co_2:7-8).

    This was so that none should perish but all might have everlasting life (Joh_3:16, 2Pe_3:9).

    That group of humans who choose to follow JHVH\’s pre-determined path to that life, through the cross of Christ, are thereby predestined by JHVH because they follow the path He predetermined for them.

    Calvinists have God predestinating particular people, then ordaining that Christ should die for them.

    But God pre-ordained that Christ should die for all people in general, and that whoever follows Christ should not perish but have eternal life.

    Since the path to eternal life was predetermined irrevocably, anyone who wishes may take that path and be certain of reaching its destination.

    My understanding is that that is the sense in which people are predestinated.

    For example:

    Imagine you are considering embarking on a train journey.

    Certain things are predetermined: the schedule, the price, the route, the conditions and rights of travel, and, most important of all, the destination.

    Those things have long been decided by the authority or company.

    You have no direct or immediate say in those things, although it is fair to say that they have been determined with your interests generally at heart.

    The company also has advertised its desire for you to use the train service it provides, and given you every assistance and encouragement.

    The company has also made the system wholly safe and reliable so that you can use it with the utmost confidence.

    To reach the destination, however, you must get on the train and stay on the train, and to do those things, you must make decisions and fulfill conditions.

    These decisions and conditions are well within your capacity to handle responsibly.

    Everything therefore has been set up so that, if you choose, you can get on the train, stay on the train, and reach your destination.

    Or you may choose not to.

    Either way, the train will still reach its destination (predestination) with the group, or class, that chooses to remain on board (individual free will).

    I believe that\’s the way predestination works.

  88. Bro. Dave says:

    Br. Travelers:
    THANK YOU for your post.
    I’m not ignoring your post, but am praying and studying it.
    I’d like to answer you as Scripturally as possible, without getting into a “Scriptural firefight”.
    So please bear with me for a bit and I’ll do my best to respond with my understanding, based on my understanding of the Scriptures.
    But, as in all things where interpretation is involved, YOUR Scriptural interpretation is just as valid as anyone else’s – up to and including mine.
    Br. Dave

  89. travelers says:

    Bro. Dave, predestination, interesting thoughts. Here’s a bit more. The reality God created was based on “right” and “wrong”. Why is that? There is no “way” out of this. You and everyone else was created to operate on this basis… Predestination?

    Free will suggests that a “question” can exist. Yet in this world of religion, God knows all and all serves his will… predestination?

    So again, why did God create a reality with good and BAD?

    Don’t worry about the blind guy, God already killed millions with the flood for being blind.

    So we need to grow “ears” and learn to “see”, peer a little deeper than those millions at the flood, before we’re among the billions at Armageddon.

    Don’t want to leave you there, sounds negative.

    God is love, you can be sure. He just wants us to figure it “OUT”, make our minds over, UP.

  90. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we studied the Scriptural basis of predestination versus free will as presented by one of our brothers.

    It was a Scriptural study that really got the brain juices flowing.

    We considered the concept that there are certain things that JHVH wants to accomplish and no matter how humans feel about it, He will accomplish His Plan.

    The question is whether or not certain people are predestined by JHVH to accomplish these tasks; e.g., Jonah, Moses, Cyrus, Mary (Jesus\’ mother).

    We looked at the Greek Scriptures where the Strong\’s definition of \”predestination\” is found:

    G4309 G4253 G3724


    We studied the following Scriptures, among others:

    We discussed:
    If we are doomed, it is because of our rejection of God; if we are redeemed, it is because of the grace of God.
    The question is not: Why are some saved and some condemned?
    Everyone deserves condemnation.
    It is only by God\’s grace that anyone is saved.
    Is this predestination or intervening?

    Was this Predestination or intervention?
    Did JHVH cause the man to be born blind (or was a man who had been born blind at the right place at the right time) so that Jesus could heal him and thus reveal the works of JHVH, His healing power.
    Think of the years that this man carried the burden of blindness until the time it could be used for JHVH\’s glory.

    We studied
    To show us He is God, He gives us prophecy – to us it\’s the future, to Him it already happened.

    Next meeting we will continue our study by looking at more Scriptures, including:

    • jacqueline says:

      Wow! What a discussion tonight. I have a lot of homework for next week lesson. Lee Anthony, your presentation was great. We all left feeling Blessed because I guess I never thought about his foreknowledge of each of us and his knowing He could use us.
      It is humbling when you go thru so much to be free from long-held doctrines of men, then discover Jehovah knew you would. Nothing is by accident, God has seen it and intervenes when it pushes it toward his will.
      It is a spiritual war going on out there, God protects and intervenes between us and the devil. Deliver us from the evil one, now I understand that in our Prayer!

      Jehovah is like the helicopter seeing the entire Race and knows who has fallen and who has won but not the people at the start gate.

      Jehovah is outside of our time constraints and physical universe, God has seen our end and prophecizes about it to show to us humans that he knows it all and we can trust Him.

      Isaiah 46:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
      10 Declaring the end from the beginning,
      And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
      Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
      And I will do all My pleasure,’

      I have been energized to Praise and Worship God more fully. I am going to sing some songs of praise with the youtube, Yolanda and some others wile I do housework. Goodnight

  91. Lee Anthony says:

    For next weeks study I would like everyone to listen to this talk in order to get an idea of what I will present and also please look up the scriptures and study the thoughts. I will add more to it Thursday. Thanks!

  92. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we discussed the last two facets of the Fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22-23):

    We discovered that while meekness is NOT the same as kindness (G5544), temperance has the same Strong\’s definition as joy.


    Meekness is demonstrated by the highest courage and activity; and is a qualification for public leadership.
    Jesus Christ stands before us as the perfect pattern of meekness.


    1Co_13:5; Php_2:4

    That rest which the soul experiences when once safe under Christ’s wing makes all yokes easy, all burdens light.


    TRULY, in a meek and quiet spirit is the secret of rest.

    That rest which the soul experiences when once safe under Christ’s wing makes all yokes easy, all burdens light.

    To be meek is:
    to cultivate the graces of patience;
    of loving submission to the will of God;
    of abiding confidence in His love and care and in the wisdom of His guiding counsel and overruling providences; and
    to persistently pursue this course through evil and through good report, or through favorable or unfavorable circumstances.

    Meekness does not mean you are a pushover or weak.

    temperance:G5479 G5463 <== same Strong\'s numbers as \"joy\"

    It covers the whole range of moral discipline, and concerns every sense and passion of our nature.

    Temperance is a practised mastery of self.

    Temperance is the steady and prompt control of the outlooking, sensibilities and appetencies, and inwardly moving desires.



    Temperance is the guarded step, the sober, measured walk in which Christian goodness keeps the way of life, and makes straight paths for stumbling and straying feet.

    Next meeting, 7/18/2019, we will be studying a topic presented by one of our members and also the verses Gen_3:8 and Gen_3:21.

  93. Bro Dave says:


    Tonight we studied primarily Hebrews chapter 10.

    Believers should live by faith (Heb_10:38-39)

    We live in a world of roaring lions (1Pe_5:8) and therefore must be on guard.
    Yet the safest way to live in a world of spiritual dangers is to build up our strength, not to hide our faith in secrecy.

    Faith does not shrink back and seem pious from a worldly point of view, but it speaks out boldly with strength gained from Jehovah\’s Word.

    Hebrews offers some suggestions (verses separated by the thought conveyed):

    Heb_10:35-39; Isa 8:17; Isa_46:13; Hab_2:3

    And, if our walk with Christ is real, it should become evident to others (Jas_2:14, Jas_2:26; Jas_3:13).

    Also, that Heb_11:1-3:
    * is not a definition of faith, but a description of what faith does;
    * Faith treats things hoped for as reality (\”Substance\” [G5287] [assurance – AMP; things – YLT; assumption – CLV] mean “essence” or “reality.”);
    * Faith itself proves that what is unseen is real (2Co_4:18);
    * Faith understands that the invisible God created the vast universe, eons, periods of time; and that,
    * Since we were not spectators of creation; it is by faith we perceive it.

    1. We concluded that Spiritual strength and health means integrating our faith with every area of life.

    2. Faith is not just one more thing on a list of a hundred things, but rather the foundation of who we are.

    3. Faith that is alive and growing, is faith unleashed!

    For 7/4/2019: In order for our group to be able to spend the day with their families, we will NOT meet this night.

    For 7/11/2019: We will resume with Gal 5:23, Meekness and Temperance.

  94. Bro Dave says:


    Tonight we studied Heb_10:19 – Heb_12:17.

    Those who live the life of faith in Jehovah will suffer.

    These sufferers include:
    the original readers of Hebrews (Heb_10:32-39; Hab_2:3; Hab_2:4; Zep_1:6; Mal_1:10; Isa_26:20)
    E.g.: The generation of Israel who did not go into the promised land because they shrunk back.
    the OT faithful (Heb_11:1-40), including surprising named faithful, described faithful and equally surprising names omitted.
    more than anyone else, Jesus Himself (Heb_12:1-4 Psa_110:1).

    Also, Jehovah uses suffering to strengthen His true children (Heb_12:5-11).

    Therefore, be encouraged (Heb_12:12-17).

    Next week we will study growing our faith, as taught in Heb 10:19-39.

  95. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we continued our study of Galatians 5:22-23, by discussing:

    FAITH G4102 G3982

    We considered Thayer\’s and Strong\’s definitions.

    We testified to our own definitions of what faith is and what faith does.
    Faith & faithful – faithful is JHVH
    Faith is something we can rely on.
    JHVH is always faithful. He always does what He says. He does not change His Mind.
    Faithful, i.e., JHVH, is precise and error-free.
    Faith is what gives us JHVH and Jesus. Faith provides the proof.
    1Co_13:13 – Do we have to have faith to have hope or love?

    We contrasted faith with hope.
    We have hope because we have faith in JHVH.
    Hope signifies what COULD happen.
    Faith is what WILL happen. PERIOD.
    Some organizations do not believe that everyone has a hope for salvation.
    Some preach hope when they personally do NOT have any.
    Disconnect between hope and faith may have occurred with satan\’s adding error and influence over the men who were and are taking the lead in these organizations.
    By emphasizing hope in organizations, it makes faith harder to cultivate, thus impedes our pleasing JHVH – Heb_11:6.

    We discussed the end of faith – 1co 13:8-13
    At end of Millennial Kingdom and forward, we will no longer need faith – we will see everything so neither faith nor hope will be required.
    Mankind has \”time\” – JHVH does not.
    Faith is a stage that mankind goes through and when our reality intersects with JHVH\’s reality.
    We grow out of that stage once we have reached that point.


    Next week, we will continue our study of FAITH.

    In preparation for next weeks meeting. please review Heb_10:19 – Heb_12:17.

  96. Bro. Dave says:


    Tonight we began by expanding on last week’s study on the facet, or characteristic, of gentleness (kindness) in Galatians 5:22, studying Eph_4:32 and advising watching the Dr. Stanley video at the bottom of this page.

    Next, we studied the facet of goodness,G19 G18.

    Thayer Definition:
    1) uprightness of heart and life, goodness, kindness
    Part of Speech: noun feminine
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G18

    From G18; goodness, that is, virtue or beneficence: – goodness.
    Total KJV occurrences: 4

    We delved into:

    Next meeting we will begin our study of the next facet, faith,G4102 G3982.

    HOMEWORK: Please review Hebrews, Chapter 11, emphasizing verses 1-3.

  97. Bro Dave says:


    Tonight we studied kindness (gentleness) [G5544 G5543 G5530] as it pertains to being a facet of the Fruit of teh Spirit.

    Thayer Definition:
    1) moral goodness, integrity
    2) benignity, kindness
    Part of Speech: noun feminine
    A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G5543

    From G5543; usefulness, that is, moral excellence (in character or demeanor): – gentleness, good (-ness), kindness.
    Total KJV occurrences: 10

    We studied:

    We also discussed some future topics, such as the \”Gap Theory\” and \”Does Jehovah Change His Mind?\”

    Next week, we\’ll study the facet of goodness,G19 G18

  98. Bro. Dave says:


    The fruit of the Spirit is not mere moral or legal correctness, but, as a diamond has facets smoothed and polished to see its brilliance, in the Christian the possession and manifestation of nine facets: love, joy, peace (character as an inward state); longsuffering, gentleness, goodness (character in expression toward man); faith, meekness, temperance (character in expression toward Jehovah).

    Taken together they present a moral portrait of Christ, and may be taken as the apostle’s explanation of Gal_2:20 “Not I, but Christ,” and as a definition of “fruit” in Joh_15:1-8

    This character is possible because of the believer’s vital union to Christ; Joh_15:5; 1Co_12:12; 1Co_12:13 and is wholly the fruit of the Spirit in those believers who are totally consecrated – without conditions or reservations – to Him.

    Tonight we continued to discuss the Fruit of the Spirit as described in Galatians 5:22-23.

    In particular, the facet of peace.

    PEACE [G1515]:

    For next meeting, we will begin our study with the facets of longsuffering and gentleness.

  99. jacqueline says:

    I just want to say tonight was a powerful faith strengthening study of the Bible.
    We don’t use books, although we have for most of our lives done topical structured study of a doctrine.

    Now we do a verse study of just the Bible to prove itself. It causes us to focus on words we have never seen or thought about as a book study indoctrinates you the way the author or authors want you to go.

    It puts a new spin on the phrase “Freedom in Christ”.
    We were in bondage in plain sight.

    Books have their place and there are many Spirit guided Voices to listen to or read, but never will I just hear one man’s voice.

    The 9 or more that we have on are able to speak and bring so much as the Holy Spirit speaks thru them by helping them to see it from another Angle.

    If I die today or tomorrow I die a free person in Christ, finally.

    All are welcome by phone, internet or both. Come on the internet without voice so you can use the chat and see who is on and speaking. Also by phone so you can move around or go to another room and take it with you. This conference call setup is nice.
    We can turn on our cameras also to see each other.

    Well goodnight and hopefully all will join on Saturday night for fellowship and testimony meeting or whatever you want to talk about. Peace

  100. jacqueline says:

    This is what we were studying before Memorial on Thursday. Please go to the end of the post for the study for tonight.

    Tonight, we discussed:
    Gifts of the Spirit (1Co_12:7-10, 1Co_14:2-25) – are they still active, in whole or in part today?

    Included in our study, we looked at Strong’s and Thayer’s definitions of several of the key terms in the Scriptures, as well as:

    “perfect” [G5046 G5056]; and,

    Concerning 1Co_13:13, we studied:
    Rom_8:24; and,

    For Mar 14, 2019, we will open our meeting with a decision about whether or not to conduct a Memorial Service on April 18, 2019 (the Memorial date published in The Herald), for any and all who cannot attend a Memorial Service personally.

    If we decide to have a Memorial Service, we’ll also create an agenda of meeting discussions for Thursday nights leading up to the Memorial Service, pertaining to Scriptures detailing the events which fulfilled prophecy leading up to Jesus’ Ransom Sacrifice, Resurrection and His Ascension.

    Afterwards, we will commence our discussion of the Fruits of the Spirit (Gal_5:22-23), comparing and contrasting the Fruits with the Gifts of the Spirit discussed Mar 7, 2019,

  101. Jacqueline says:
    This is the Link I mentioned on our Thursday night meeting explaining why we can’t harmonize these 2 because they talk about different things at different times. Although some parts are speaking about the destruction of 70 AD.
    Matt 24 vs Luke 21.

  102. Bro. Dave says:


    In preparation for the Memorial, tonight we delved into the Emblems of that Memorial, namely the bread and the wine.

    We discussed key Scriptures:




    blood [symbol of life given up in death] (Lev_17:11)






    We discussed the meaning of the unleavened bread (Exo_34:25, 1Co_5:6-7) and that the Church, as a whole, is the “one loaf” now being broken (1Co_10:16-17).

    We looked into:




    Then we asked the question, Who May Partake of the Emblems?

    This new institution was not laid upon Jesus’ followers as a law, and no penalties were attached for failure of its proper observance.

    While ALL are welcome to attend, we determined that partaking of the emblems of the Lord’s Supper is not for the world, nor for merely nominal believers, but only for those who,
    (1) accept Jesus Christ as their Redeemer and sin-bearer, and,
    are (2) consecrated to him and his service, even unto death.

    1Co_11:28 – There is here a clearly drawn line of distinction, not only between the believers and unbelievers, but also between the consecrated and the unconsecrated.

    However, the line is to be drawn by each individual for himself or herself.

    But it is not for any man or set of men to decide who may and who may not partake.

    All are be welcomed to participate, regardless of your faith and harmony on other subjects, if you are in full accord in respect to these foundation truths:
    the redemption through the precious blood, and ,
    a full consecration unto death, giving them justification.

    However, not ignoring Paul’s warning in 1Co_11:27-29.

    ALL are welcome to attend our Memorial Service on 4/19/2019.

    Any wishing to partake of the emblems should have their wine (or grape juice, etc.) and unleavened bread (or crackers, etc.) within easy reach.

  103. Bro. Dave says:


    7 Last Words of Christ from the Cross


    “their bodies were torn to pieces, and were crucified, while they were still alive, and breathed.”

    In Antiquities 18: Chapter 3
    “Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.”


    1. “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do” (Luk_23:34).

    2. “Today you will be with me in Paradise” (Luk_23:39-43).

    About the 9th hour (3PM)

    3. “Woman, behold your Son” (Joh_19:26-27).

    4. “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mat_27:46).

    Eli,[G2241] Eli,[G2241] lama [G2982] sabachthani? [G4518]

    forsaken [G1459]

    5. “I thirst” (Joh_19:28).

    6. “It is finished” (Joh_19:30).

    finished: [G5055]

    First, Jesus had to finish the task the Father had sent Him to earth to accomplish, namely to provide salvation for humankind.

    Second, Jesus Fulfilled Prophecy

    Third, Jesus Achieved Victory Over The Devil

    Fourth, Jesus Suffering Was Finished

    7. “Father, into your hands I commend my spirit” (Luk_23:46).

    This was quoted from Psa_31:5


    Next meeting, 4/18/2019

    We will discuss the Emblems of the Memorial.

    On April 19, 2019, PROMPTLY at 8:30 PM EDT (7:30 PM CDT; 6:30 PM MDT; 5:30 PM PDT), we welcome you to observe the Memorial for our Redeemer, Jesus Christ, with us.

  104. Bro Dave says:


    I have been asked to publish these notes on this site.

    Please bear in mind that these are just my notes – I do not claim to be an authority.

    I am just a Truth-seeker, and subject to mistakes.

    If you find errors of commission or omission, please email me with that information.

    Also, FOR OUR MEETING ON 4/11/2019:

    The subject has been changed to:

    The Seven Last “Words” of Christ on the Cross”.

    I believe this is more in keeping with our Memorial theme.


    Jesus’ Last Day (Overview)
    Matthew Chapters 26-27
    Mark Chapters 14-15
    Luke Chapters 22-23
    John Chapters 13-19

    Difference between Jewish and Roman day.
    Jewish day – 6PM to 6PM
    Roman Day 12AM to 12AM

    Traditional Thursday
    The disciples prepare for the Passover (Mat_26:17-19 , Mar_14:12-16, Luk_22:7-13).
    Jesus washes His disciples’ feet (Joh_13:1-17)
    At sunset, they observe the last Passover Jesus will partake of (Mat_26:20-25, Mar_14:17-21, Luk_22:14-16, Joh_13:21-30).
    At that time, Jesus instituted the Memorial which we observe to this day (Mat_26:26-29, Mar_14:22-25, Luk_22:17-22).
    Luke alone records the strife over which disciple is the greatest (Luk_22:24-30)
    Luke alone also records where Jesus insures the preparation for going to the Mount of Olives includes everything necessary for Scriptural prophecy to be fulfilled (Luk_22:35-38)

    After the service is completed they sing a hymn then walk to the Mount of Olives (Mat_26:30, Mar_14:26, Luk_22:39).
    Walking on the Mount of Olives, Jesus reveals to Peter his upcoming denial of his Master ( Mat_26:31-35, Mar_14:27-31, Luk_22:31-34, Joh_13:36-38).
    (NOTE: In Luke, Peter;s denial is predicted BEFORE going to the Mount of Olives)
    At roughly 9 p.m., while walking to the Garden of Gethsemane (at the foot of the Mount of Olives), Jesus tells the disciples he is the True Vine (Joh_15:1-27).
    He offers his final words of encouragement (Joh_16:1-31) and again states that the disciples will leave him (Joh_16:32-33).
    In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus prays.
    ( Mat_26:36-45, Mar_14:32-41, Luk_22:39-46, )
    After midnight, when (according to the Roman calendar we use today) it becomes Traditional Friday, Judas arrives in the Garden of Gethsemane accompanied by armed officers and other men provided by the religious leaders. Judas, as a signal of which person to arrest, gives Jesus a kiss (Mat_26:45-56, Mar_14:41-50, Luk_22:47-53, Joh_18:1-12).
    At approximately 2 a.m. the High Priest Caiphas interviews his false witnesses, questions Jesus about His disciples and teachings but does not receive an answer.
    Frustrated, he adjures him by the living God to state whether or not he is the true Son of God (Mat_26:62-63, Mar_14:60-61, , Joh_18:12-14 Joh_18:19-24)
    The answer he receives (Mat_26:64, Mar_14:62 so angers him that he tears his clothes and cries out that Christ has committed blasphemy (Mat_26:65, Mar_14:63)
    The High Priest then immediately asks the council for a verdict, to which they unanimously shout that the death penalty should be carried out (Mat_26:59-68, Mar_14:55-65, Luk_22:63-65).
    Peter then denies Jesus three times (Mat_26:69-75, Mar_14:66-72, Luk_22:56-62, Joh_18:17, Joh_18:25-27).
    At approximately 5 to 6 a.m., because Jewish law demanded two sessions of the Sanhedrin hear and try a defendant, a second trial of Jesus was held around 5 a.m.
    This second trial, however, seems little more than than a “rubber stamp” or automatic approval of the first trial’s decision.
    Jesus is bound and sent to Pontius Pilate, the Roman Prefect of Judea, for punishment around 6 a.m. (Mat_27:1-2, Mar_15:1, Luk_22:66 – Luk_23:1, Joh_18:28)
    At sunrise Judas Iscariot repents of betraying Christ but still hangs himself. The Chief Priests decide to buy a potter’s field with thirty pieces of silver Judas gave back to them (Mat_27:3-10, Act_1:15-19)
    At approximately 7 a.m., instead of blasphemy, the Jewish leaders bring Jesus to Pontius Pilate under the charge of treason against Rome.
    His enemies want the Romans to do the dirty job of “legally” murdering him!
    While Pilate questions Jesus (Mat_27:11-14, Mar_15:2-5, Luk_23:2-4, Joh_18:29-30) he discovers he is from Galilee and sends him to Herod Antipas (Tetrach of Galilee and son of Herod the Great) for judgment.
    Herod questions him but receives no answers.
    Herod and his soldiers mock him, put a splendid robe on him, and send him back to Pilate (Luk_22:63-65; Luk_23:5-12).
    At roughly 8 a.m. Pontius Pilate tells the Jewish religious leaders that he and Herod Antipas find Jesus innocent.
    ( Luk_23:4; Luk_23:13-15; Joh_18:38)
    Pilate wishes to release him (Luk_23:13-15, Joh_18:31-38).
    Unable to do so because of the crowds, he releases the prisoner Barabbas. He then has his soldiers severely beat and scourge Jesus.
    (Mat_27:15-31; Mar_15:6-18; Luk_23:17-25; Joh_19:1-15)
    The soldiers take Jesus to Golgotha, also known as Calvary and the Place of the Skull, to be crucified.
    Along the route they force Simon of Cyrene to carry his cross (Mat_27:32-33, Mar_15:21-22, Luk_23:26-31, Joh_19:16-17).
    From 9 a.m. to noon Jesus is nailed to the cross. He is crucified along with two thieves (Mat_27:38, Mar_15:27-28, Luk_23:32-33, Joh_19:18).
    He is given wine (vinegar) mixed with gall to drink while on the cross (Mat_27:34, Mar_15:23).
    Roman soldiers also cast lots for his clothes. (Mat_27:35, Mar_15:24, Luk_23:34, Joh_19:24)
    Pontius Pilate has the charge against him written in Hebrew, Greek and Latin and put on Jesus’ cross. (Luk_23:38, Joh_19:19-22 )
    Near the end of his life Christ asks God the Father to forgive those that are killing him ( Luk_23:34).
    Some in the crowd, where Christ is crucified, stare at him in amazement.
    Others such as Roman soldiers, members of the Sanhedrin (chief priests, scribes, elders) and even the two thieves also being crucified, mock him. (Mat_27:39-45, Mar_15:29-33, Luk_23:35-44, )
    Many family and friends, at a distance, watch Jesus suffer on the cross. These include his mother Mary, her sister, Mary Magdalene and the apostle John ( Mat_27:55-56, Mar_15:40-41, Luk_23:48-49).
    From noon to 3 p.m. darkness covers the entire land.
    Jesus tells his mother, Mary, to now consider the apostle John her son and tells John to take care of his mother Mary (Joh_19:25-27).
    At 3 p.m. Jesus Christ, the Redeemer of all mankind, is forsaken – that is, the actual withdrawal of the Father’s favor and communion, by Jehovah and cries out with a loud voice: “Eli Eli, lama sabachthani?” Some in the crowd think he is calling out to the prophet Elijah (Mat_27:46-47, Mar_15:34-35).
    He is offered and accepts vinegar (sour wine) to wet his lips. (Psa_69:21; Mat_27:34; Mat_27:48; Mar_15:36; Luk_23:36; Joh_19:29; )

    After SIX AGONIZING HOURS of being nailed to and hanging on the cross:

    He cries out with a loud voice “It is Finished!” ( Psa_31:5; Mat_27:50; Mar_15:37; Joh_19:30 )
    His last words are: “Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit.”(Luk_23:46)
    The Jews, desiring the death of those crucified before the high Holy Day starts (around 6 pm), asks Pilate to break their legs. Pilate agrees.
    The legs of those crucified with Jesus are broken, but his are not since he is already dead (Joh_19:31-37).
    Pilate, just before sunset, allows Joseph of Arimathea, a rich member of the Sanhedrin, to take the body of Jesus.
    Joseph and Nicodemus wrap his body in fine linen with a mixture of myrrh and aloes and bury him in the brand new tomb Joseph had made for himself (Mat_27:57-61, Mar_15:42-47, Luk_23:50-55, Joh_19:38-42).
    The moment Jesus died, the temple veil (60 feet high) was split. (Mat_27:51; Mar_15:38; Luk_23:45)
    At sunset the First Day of Unleavened Bread, a high Holy Day where no work is allowed, begins.

  105. Bro. Dave says:


    Jesus’ Last Day (Overview)
    Matthew Chapters 26-27
    Mark Chapters 14-15
    Luke Chapters 22-23
    John Chapters 13-19

    Difference between Jewish and Roman day.
    Jewish Day – 6PM to 6PM
    Roman Day 12AM to 12AM

    For our study, we used the Jewish Day.

    Beginning with when the disciples prepare for the Passover (Mat_26:17-19 , Mar_14:12-16, Luk_22:7-13),

    and concluding with Pontius Pilate, just before sunset, allows Joseph of Arimathea to take the body of Jesus to the new tomb Joseph had made for himself (Mat_27:57-61, Mar_15:42-47, Luk_23:50-55, Joh_19:38-42).

    The intention was to read from all the Gospels to get a “four-cornered” perspective of the most important events of that 6PM to 6PM day.

    The truth was that there were just too many Scriptures to study adequately in the allotted time, so notes were emailed to all participants for their personal study.

    On 4/11/2019, we will open the meeting and discuss our upcoming Memorial presentation on April 19. Then we will study Jesus fulfilling Messianic prophecy.

    If you are planning to attend our Memorial Service on April 19,
    if you plan to partake of the emblems, please remember to arrange to have those emblems on hand on April 19, at,
    8:30 PM EDT
    7:30 PM EDT
    6:30 PM EDT
    5:30 PM EDT

  106. Dave says:

    For 4/4/2-19:

    Jesus’ Last Day (Overview)
    Matthew Chapters 26-27
    Mark Chapters 14-15
    Luke Chapters 22-23
    John Chapters 13-19

  107. Dave says:


    “Behold, the Lamb of God”

    We reviewed Jesus’ role as the “Lamb of God” (Joh_1:29 and Joh_1:36).

    We reviewed and discussed the following:

    Q – When – generally – was this part of JHVH’s Plan conceived?

    Q – What does the story if Abraham taking Isaac to Moriah for sacrifice have to do with the Jesus’ Ransom Sacrifice?

    Q – What Scriptures support Jesus becoming the anti-typical sacrificial lamb?


    Q – How do we know that Jesus was voluntarily obedient to Jehovah’s Arrangement?

  108. jacqueline says:

    This is a repost of Dave’s comment for 3/28/2019:

    March 21, 2019

    Holding to:
    Matthew 18:20 YLT for where there are two or three gathered together–to my name, there am I in the midst of them.
    we voted to have a Memorial on Friday, April 19, 2019, starting 8:30 PM ET (7:30 PM CT; 6:30 PM MT; 5:30 PM PT).

    We also voted to have Memorial Studies for the remaining four Thursday night meetings (INCLUDING April 18) before the Memorial.

    On March 28, 2019, we will study Scriptures, prophecies and type/antitype related to John 1:29 and John 1:36.

    As always, all are invited and welcome to participate.

  109. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    I came across this interesting video. It asks the question: Is the Lords Supper to be celebrated just once per year. He makes some interesting points! After viewing this video, what do you and others think?

  110. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    Here is an article I came across regarding the timing of the Passover meal:
    If Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation, why had He already eaten the Passover meal?
    Day of Preparation Question: \”If Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation, why had He already eaten the Passover meal?\”

    Answer: All four Gospels state that Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation (Matthew 27:62; Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:14, 31, 42). Mark, Luke, and John all state that the following day was the Sabbath. John’s account uses this wording: “It was the day of Preparation of the Passover” (John 19:14). The question becomes, since Jesus was killed on the Day of Preparation, why had He already observed the Passover with His disciples (Matthew 26:17–29; Mark 14:12–25; Luke 22:7–22; John 13:1–30)?

    First, we should discard the theory that the writers of the New Testament made a mistake. Theorizing that all four of the Gospel writers got the chronology wrong stretches credulity to the breaking point. Are we really to believe that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all forgot what they had written from one chapter to the next? No, there must be a better explanation for why Jesus ate the Passover before the Day of Preparation.

    Next, we need to identify what the Day of Preparation was preparing for. Every week, preparations had to be made for the Sabbath—food had to be prepared ahead of time. This led to the “Day of Preparation” becoming the common term for “Friday.” Although many preparations also had to be made for the Passover, there is no record of “Passover Eve” being called the Day of Preparation. The Day of Preparation was always Friday, the day before the Sabbath. Mark 15:42 makes this clear.

    How then do we explain John’s statement that Jesus died on “the day of Preparation of the Passover” (John 19:14)? It’s quite possible that John simply meant that this particular Friday fell during Passover week; we could understand his words this way: “It was the day of Preparation, the one that happened to come during the season of Passover.” So, the Day of Preparation was to prepare for the Sabbath, not the Passover.

    The Mosaic Law stipulated what day the Passover lamb was to be eaten: Nissan 14 (Numbers 9:2–3). We must assume that Jesus kept the Law and observed Passover at the appointed time (see Galatians 4:4). After the Passover (Thursday) came the Day of Preparation (Friday) on which Jesus was killed. The Sabbath (Saturday) followed, of course, and then the first day of the week (Sunday)—the third day after the crucifixion and the day on which Jesus rose from the dead.

    One objection to the above chronology is based on John 18:28, which says, “The Jewish leaders took Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness they did not enter the palace, because they wanted to be able to eat the Passover.” At first glance, it seems that, whereas Jesus had eaten the Passover the night before, the Jewish leaders had not yet eaten the Passover—they still “wanted to be able to eat” it after Jesus was arrested. To reconcile this verse with the Synoptic narratives, we must remember this: Passover was the first day of the week-long Feast of Unleavened Bread.

    The Feast (or Festival) of Unleavened Bread (Chag HaMatzot) lasted for a full week, from Nissan 15 to Nissan 22. The first day of Unleavened Bread coincided with the day of Passover. Because of the close relation between Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread, the whole week was sometimes referred to as “Passover.” The two holidays were (and still are) considered a single celebration. This explains John 18:28. The Jewish leaders had already eaten the Passover proper, but there still remained other sacrifices to be made and meals to be eaten. They were unwilling to defile themselves (Pilate’s palace contained leaven) because it would disqualify them from participating in the remainder of the week’s ceremonies (see Leviticus 23:8).

    There are other difficulties in pinpointing the exact chronology of Jesus’ arrest, trial, crucifixion, and resurrection. But this seems to be a workable solution:

    Thursday – Passover proper. The lamb is killed, and Jesus and His disciples eat the Passover meal in the upper room.

    Friday – the Day of Preparation. Jesus is tried and executed (although never convicted). The Jews continue their “Passover” celebrations with the chagigah, offerings made during the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

    Saturday – the weekly Sabbath.

    Sunday – Resurrection Day.

  111. Dave says:

    March 21, 2019

    Holding to:
    Matthew 18:20 YLT for where there are two or three gathered together–to my name, there am I in the midst of them.
    we voted to have a Memorial on Friday, April 19, 2019, starting 8:30 PM ET (7:30 PM CT; 6:30 PM MT; 5:30 PM PT).

    We also voted to have Memorial Studies for the remaining four Thursday night meetings (INCLUDING April 18) before the Memorial.

    On March 28, 2019, we will study Scriptures, prophecies and type/antitype related to John 1:29 and John 1:36.

    As always, all are invited and welcome to participate.

    • jacqueline says:

      Dave by Monday I will put what you have stated in the permanent text of the Memorial page.
      Also, those assigned prayers and readings etc will get an email and program later from you. So your info will be in two places.
      I go home tomorrow and my entire family in this area will be there all weekend to situate my house and do stuff. I have been away for almost 3 months. All praise goes to Jehovah God and Jesus that I made it this far.

      Dave also, thank you so much for taking the lead and coordinating the Studies and now the Memorial. Jeff and Henry are workers also along side you. And we thank them also. So many are being blessed. Again all Praise goes to our Father and the Son.
      Saturday night at 7pm CST, 8pm EST, Henry will host the testimony meeting, so all wanting to hear and discuss what was said Thursday should come on if they can.
      PS: Dave, some of this is stated here for persons with questions although I addressed you. In Christ

  112. Dave says:

    Due to thunderstorms in our area, and the fact that my ISP is HughesNet satellite, I am being told by FreeConferenceCall that my bandwidth is insufficient to participate online tonight.
    I look forward to \”seeing\” everybody next Thursday night in, hopefully, clearer weather.

    • jacqueline says:

      Okay Dave, we have the storms here also in Atlanta. 60 mph winds in Chicago and Gary. I opened up on my cell phone. Do you have enough for the BBB?
      Some cell services are down also but I will keep it open. Tornado watch for Chicago and you and I are in the same section so getting the same weather here.

    • jacqueline says:

      Hi, Dave, some others had power outages but we stayed on until 9:30 and did testimony on how God has intervened in our lives. Missed you and look forward to next week.

  113. Dave says:

    Mar 7, 2019

    Tonight, we discussed:
    Gifts of the Spirit (1Co_12:7-10, 1Co_14:2-25) – are they still active, in whole or in part today?

    Included in our study, we looked at Strong’s and Thayer’s definitions of several of the key terms in the Scriptures, as well as:

    “perfect” [G5046 G5056]; and,

    Concerning 1Co_13:13, we studied:
    Rom_8:24; and,

    For Mar 14, 2019, we will open our meeting with a decision about whether or not to conduct a Memorial Service on April 18, 2019 (the Memorial date published in The Herald), for any and all who cannot attend a Memorial Service personally.

    If we decide to have a Memorial Service, we’ll also create an agenda of meeting discussions for Thursday nights leading up to the Memorial Service, pertaining to Scriptures detailing the events which fulfilled prophecy leading up to Jesus’ Ransom Sacrifice, Resurrection and His Ascension.

    Afterwards, we will commence our discussion of the Fruits of the Spirit (Gal_5:22-23), comparing and contrasting the Fruits with the Gifts of the Spirit discussed Mar 7, 2019,

  114. Dave says:

    On Feb 28, 2019, we started by reviewing last week’s discussion and looked at some additional Scriptures concerning the subject, including:
    Mat_24:23-28; and,

    Then we studied Eze_44:17-21 and its relevance to the Millennial Kingdom, if any.

    We concluded that:

    The final, large collection of messages in Ezekiel (Ezekiel 33:21-48:35) communicates comfort and consolation to the exiles in Babylon following the shock of the destruction of Jerusalem.

    Until Jerusalem had fallen, Ezekiel’s message was predominantly negative, insisting that the city would be destroyed.

    Once news about that event came (Eze_33:21), Jehovah’s message immediately turned to hope:
    * hope for a new leadership (ch. 34),
    * a new spirit (chs. 36, 37)
    * a new victory (chs. 38, 39), and
    * a new temple (chs. 40—48).

    From history we conclude that all of the prophecies in Ezekiel 1-35 have been literally fulfilled but the prophecies in Ezekiel 36-48 are future.

    On Mar 7, 2019, we will consider whether or not gifts of the Spirit, such as those mentioned in 1Co_14:2-25, are still active, in whole or in part.

  115. Dave says:

    On Feb. 21,2019, we had a spirited discussion of:
    Scripturally, is Jesus’ Kingdom heavenly or earthly (Jerusalem)?
    Is Michael and Jesus the same?
    Difference in coming FOR the saints and coming WITH the saints.

    We began with Dan_12:1, with particular attention to the expression:
    “stand up” [H5975]:
    A primitive root; to stand, in various relations (literally and figuratively, intransitively and transitively): – abide (behind), appoint, arise, cease, confirm, continue, dwell, be employed, endure, establish, leave, make, ordain, be [over], place, (be) present (self), raise up, remain, repair, + serve, set (forth, over, -tle, up), (make to, make to be at a, with-) stand (by, fast, firm, still, up), (be at a) stay (up), tarry.
    Total KJV occurrences: 521

    While there was not enough time to discuss all the verses pertaining to this, we focused on:
    Rev_3:21 (compared to Mat_25:31)

    as well as,

    And others.

    We also considered Revelation 14 sevenfold description of the 144,000.

    On Feb. 28, 2019, we are going to consider Eze_44:17-21, and whether or not it relates to the Millennial Kingdom.

    THANKS to all who attended and participated with their insights.

    If you would like to participate in a (mostly) Scriptures-Only study, unencumbered by human filtering of Jehovah’s Word, you are most welcome to join us on Thursday nights.

    All you need is your Bible.

  116. jacqueline says:

    Friends, please join us tonight for a special guest, George Storrs 7 pm CST, 8 pm EST.

  117. Nubby Tope says:

    Hi Jacqueline,

    You OK? Great to hear Bro. Peter on that link; I really like his manner of delivery, and he explained things so well.

    • jacqueline says:

      Nubby Tope, I had a stroke then pneumonia. 4 more weeks for pneumonia to clear because it came from aspiration into my lungs during a heart exploration with a camera.
      I am a therapist and began neuromuscular therapy while in emergency room and I hummed so my brain wouldn’t forget my voice box. The doctors said never has he seen a patient get better hour by hour normally it is day by day. 37 hours and I was sent home with my paramedic, fire chief, son and another son that flew in. Plus other family drove in from various places and phone calls from some that had stopped speaking to me. I was in only 2 days for the pneumonia, 20 days later. So now I am taking it easy and next week doctors will analyze all tests and began treatment to correct the reason I stoked out. It was an embolism so it originated from somewhere other than the brain.
      One month later my speech is uninpaired and I have no paralysis in my arm or fingers. I did my own therapy since that is my field of training .
      Now, if you mean how am I from the interactions with Peter, I survived that total disregard and disrespect also.
      My personality is to deal swiftly and permanently with situations, file them away and move on. As a Psychologist I encourage my clients to not stay in an abusive situation after they see the person knows they are abusive, because they aren’t going to change. Them we practice techniques to not stall but move on. The sooner you refocus, the outcome will be in your favor.
      In each instance I felt Jehovah and Jesus support. Brothers on this site stepped up to the plate and dealt with Peter for me and I was with my paramedic son when I had the stroke right in front of his eyes! I knew for months something was wrong internally with me but couldn’t pinpoint it so I
      said it was stress.
      Group therapy was what my therapy team said I needed, interaction and feedback on my behavior and to fight depression that sometimes follow a stroke. I showed them what I do and the BBB interaction and they gave it a thumbs ups that I had this already in play.
      Again help from Our Father!
      After next week I will know what caused my vascular accident and treatment for it.
      Thanks for your concern.

  118. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    Hi Sr Jacqueline What is the Google Jehovah’s Witnesses alert?

    • jacqueline says:

      You go to Google and say I want to get news every time “Jehovah witnesses” is in the news all over the globe. It will appear in your email. That is how I knew in 2000 that the witnesses had applied for property in Warwick when no one believed me. It picked up the public hearing from that small town who published their meeting with the witnesses for a permit. You can set up a Google alert for anything or anybody. I know when a person mentions me on the web. Google,” How do I set up Google alert”? I set mine up decades ago so forgot.

  119. Dave says:

    On Feb 14, 2019, we discussed the difference between parousia, and the coming.
    What does Parousia [G3952 G3918 G3844 G1510] really mean?

    We looked into the historical examples of uses and meanings of parousia.

    The word is used 24 times in the New Testament.

    Of these, six uses refer to the coming of individuals: Stephanas, Fortunatus, and Achaicus (1Co_16:17),
    Titus (2Co_7:6-7)
    the physical \”presence\” of Paul himself (2Co_10:10, Php_1:26, Php_2:12), and
    a seventh use to the \”coming of the lawless one\” (2Th_2:9).

    The other seventeen uses refer to the Second Coming of Christ, except the one case in which it refers to the coming of the \”Day of God\” (2Pe_3:12).

    The word \”parousia\” is mainly used in Christian theology to refer to the second coming of Christ.

    The word parousia is found in the following verses:
    Mat_24:3, Mat_24:27, Mat_24:37, Mat_24:39;
    1Th_2:19; 1Th_3:13; 1Th_4:15; 1Th_5:23;
    2Th_2:1, 2Th_2:8-9;
    2Pe_1:16; 2Pe_3:4, 2Pe_3:12;

    We also looked at some Greek-English words that may be related to, and can be distinguished from, parousia.

    We then contrsted \”parousia\” with leusis [G1660 G2064] which means \”coming\”.

    For next meeting, 2/21/2019, we will attempt to answer:
    Scripturally, is Jesus\’ Kingdom heavenly or earthly (Jerusalem)?
    Starting with Dan_12:1

    • jacqueline says:

      So Dave when we are in school and the teacher does roll call and you say PRESENT, it means your body is in the seat. You aren’t on your way or in the hallway or out of her sight but actually there. Your Presence is felt with your active participation in the class but you must be there to have your Presence felt. That is just one point I got from tonight and every meeting we get so much from just considering these things ourselves from the Bible. Thanks for all the research you do evry week Dave!
      And the added blessing tonight of Doug our visitor! What a joy it was to have him. I hope he will consider hosting his meet-up group on the BBB. He uplifted us to see him come on and maybe we can peep in and join the conversation with the group.
      Some on here who have the “GOOGLE JEHOVAH WITNESS alert” will see his meet up group notice from google alert for Thursday.
      It is 12:02 midnite and the last conversation just ended so I guess I will go to sleep now.

  120. Dave says:

    Tonight, 1/31/2019, we delved into Exodus 4:16 and supporting Scriptures using Interlinear and Strong’s .

    Then we began looking into John 1:1, especially the Greek word, theos G2316, and the uneven application of Greek grammar, as well as translators’ inconsistent application of definite and indefinite articles in their translations.

    We further chatted about how this inconsistent application contributed to the confusion and the error being taught by various religious organizations.

    We then revisited Rev 22:6 and discussed its significance and harmony with the other three Scriptures in Bible containing the phrase “faithful and true”.

    For next meeting, 2/7/2019, we are going to research the Scriptural basis of the parousia – what does it really mean and contrast it with the “coming”.

    If time permits, we will also research the Scriptural basis of the rapture.

    • jacqueline says:

      Dave, I am so glad I was able to come on tonight although I was late. The discussion was uplifting and I am just not good with the Greek words but you are spot on.
      We appreciate the hard work you put in with going back to the original language. Theos and the subordinate other Greek words for God cause me to wonder why it isn’t used when speaking about Jesus.
      I forgot the word but you made me think. I do accept that Jesus is indeed a God and I am happy for all things and power has been placed in his hand now until he bows low and turns it over to His Father, Jehovah in a restored paradise state.
      My health is improving and I hope to be on next week.

  121. David (Thursday night) says:

    Sr. Jacqueline:
    You sounded TERRIFIC.
    Had I not known of your situation, by listening to you I would not have guessed that anything was wrong.
    Also, your comments were spot on, so there was no way to tell from the comments that anything was amiss.
    The fact that you broke out in a chorus of ‘Yankee Doodle Dandy” in the middle of the meeting has nothing to do with anything.
    I’m sure nobody will recollect that by next Thursday night.
    And if they do, no one will mention it.
    But I am nominating you for a Tony.

    • jacqueline says:

      Ha ha Dave, thanks for the feedback! When I was told I needed group therapy to really put my vocal cords and mind to the test. I asked what do you do in group? She said you talk, read out loud and explain what you read.
      Sounded like our Thursday night study to me! I told her we don’t use a book to tell us what the scripture says but discuss it among ourselves. I said we do have some help however, and that is God’s Spirit.
      She said that intenseness was better than what their group offered.
      So thanks so much to you for trusting me to read out loud. My relative noticed and I got to explain our just using the Bible.
      Thanks for the feedback and to all for ignoring my Yankee doodle routine. Lol
      PS: now to find proof that the white horse of the four in Revelation is not Christ. That should wipe my mind clean!

  122. Dave says:

    On our January 24, 2019, meeting we studied the phrase:


    Rev 21:5
    `Write, because these words are true [G228 G227 G1 G2990] and stedfast [G4103 G3982];’
    and the other 3 Scriptures where this exact phrase appears:
    Rev 3:14
    Rev 19:11
    Rev 22:6

    We also agreed that “the Amen [G281 H543 H539]” expresses the unchangeable truth of His promises; also “the faithful the true witness,” the truth of His revelations as to the heavenly things which He has seen and testifies.
    and looked into the
    the name “Witness” [G3140 G3144]” (1Ti_6:13).

    For our next meeting, January 31, 2019, we will be exploring the translators’ “God” and “a god” compared to the literal and interlinear versions;
    in particular, Exodus 4:16 and John 1:1-3.

  123. Dave says:

    For Thursday night, Jan 17, 2019, meeting:

    Rather than focusing on Sister Jacqueline’s topic of the Third Temple this week, I suggest we focus on Rev 21:4-5 – – most particularly on the last phrase in Rev 21:5:

    Revelation 21:4-5 MLV

    (4) And he will wipe-away every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, anymore. The first things have passed away.

    (5) And he who is sitting upon the throne said, Behold, I am making* all things new. And he says to me, Write, because these words are faithful and true.
    (emphasis on last SIX words)

    • jacqueline says:

      Dave, discussing how God works in our lives and good fellowship among brothers has a healing effect on the body. I feel refreshed after coming on last night. I was able to listen most of the time but had many opportunities to express myself. This is what I told my speech therapist, that I already had group therapy twice a week with my Christian fellows. She said it accounts for my rapid speech recovery because I formulated thoughts to tell my friends in the group and my family. I texted and talked although I knew they might not understand me.
      So I need feedback. Did I sound garbled? For Henry and Jeff also to give me feedback.
      I am looking forward to being able to read next week if I am not in treatment. They take my heart monitor off tomorrow in their search to find out why. All of my blood work and scans are unremarkable and no risk factors at all so I can really just tell them, I think it is plain old stress.
      We discussed ways for me to deal with some of the stresses that go with exiting yet another religious idea or rather the same Concept that I never really got away from. Now I see I need to just stick with the Bible and leave books that outline the explanation of the entire Bible alone.

  124. jacqueline says:

    Good morning Dave, in addition to one on one speech therapy for my stroke I need to do group discussion. So I will be in attendance Thursday for Bible reading and discussion. My speech therapist was glad I was already a part of a discussion group and says that is all I need. So Jehovah, Jesus,Holy Spirit, Bible and my brothers, the ingredients for overcoming an illness and a prescription for success.
    I can’t leave out my tremendous family support, they came through with moral support as well as physically traveling to help! Thank God for that! It was worth a stroke to see our family come together in a crisis. I always help everyone and they remembered Jesus made families to fight the great break up in Eden.
    My stroke was the part of the brain that specifically affects word formation and sending to my right fingers. Not cognitive or anything else. I began my own therapy within 30 minutes on my arm so the brain would not forget it. You only have three hours. I will write an article about it as part of my therapy. My doctor says share it and explain that there is something you can do to help yourself.
    I am no longer paralyzed and I can move, control and write now plus hold objects without dropping them. I can now form words without stuttering. My sister came up right away to continue Occupational Therapy.
    Stroke was Last Wednesday. Now just waiting for the brain swelling to totally heal.
    ALL THIS PRAIS FOR MY REVOVERY GOES TO JEHOVAH GOD. All good gifts comes from the devil. GOD SAID NO!

  125. Greg says:

    Hi Ted,
    I’d love to explore this with you and others. To answer your question, though, for the time being, I only have LOTS of my own questions:
    “At that time…” <--What time? What's the context? Isaiah is writing about something future. "The burden of..." <--Also translated as: "The prophecy regarding..." "The message about..." "The future of..." Why are the "burdens" of so many other kingdoms mentioned in chapters 13, 15, 17, 19, 21 (3 different kingdoms in this chapter alone), 22, 23, 30? Are these burdens separate occasions, or are they fulfilled in order? If so, what order? OR are these burdens maybe different facets of something big, something that can be seen from different perspectives? What, if any, is the significance is the geographical relationship of Egypt, Assyria, and Israel? What about the military significance of each? What about the "wealth" of each? What about Historical significances? Are there any noteworthy historical fulfillments? Do these provide a pattern for something greater? Why and when will Egyptian rise against Egyptian? Which are the 5 cities in Egypt that speak the Language of Canaan? What is the Language of Canaan that is being referred to? Through which countries and regions and scenery will the Highway run? I could write so many more questions. I might mention that I did find Matthew Henry's commentary on these chapters to also inspire lots more ideas and questions. I'll let you know more as I slowly pick my way through my own questions.

  126. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    Does anyone have a thought on this Scripture? It seems that Assyria and Egypt will eventually unite with Israel in service to God.
    Isa 19: 19 In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the Lord at its border. 20 It will be a sign and witness to the Lord Almighty in the land of Egypt. When they cry out to the Lord because of their oppressors, he will send them a savior and defender, and he will rescue them. 21 So the Lord will make himself known to the Egyptians, and in that day they will acknowledge the Lord. They will worship with sacrifices and grain offerings; they will make vows to the Lord and keep them. 22 The Lord will strike Egypt with a plague; he will strike them and heal them. They will turn to the Lord, and he will respond to their pleas and heal them.

    23 In that day there will be a highway from Egypt to Assyria. The Assyrians will go to Egypt and the Egyptians to Assyria. The Egyptians and Assyrians will worship together. 24 In that day Israel will be the third, along with Egypt and Assyria, a blessing[b] on the earth. 25 The Lord Almighty will bless them, saying, “Blessed be Egypt my people, Assyria my handiwork, and Israel my inheritance.”

    • jacqueline says:

      Wow Ted I wish I could talk on this subject. I am on a 7hr drive and with JW 👪 so I can’t comment until maybe next week but I will read.
      I just listened to Ezekial and Now I will do all of Isaiah to see if I can glean the entire picture. Ezekial goes along with Isaiah.
      I have long felt this is a future prophecy and not one of the hundreds of pyramids that dart the earth. But let’s see if we can unravel the mystery with search engines. I will just be reading so as not to offend my family.
      So far I notice the “phrase in this day” and all of them is after Egypt, Israel, etc are worshiping together.
      I just completed my 9 hour drive. Family love is abounding!

      Take care.❤

    • jacqueline says:

      Canaanite languages, group of Northern Central or Northwestern Semitic languages including Hebrew, Moabite, Phoenician, and Punic. They were spoken in ancient times in Palestine, on the coast of Syria, and in scattered colonies elsewhere around the Mediterranean

  127. jacqueline says:

    Dave, Jeff tried to get on fojw Saturday might meeting but couldn’t. So he emailed one of the Philippines brother to see if they were meeting. He said yes but they are studying the Bible and doing a verse by verse of the book of Judges. So encouraging to us that others are realizing we need to add just the Bible to our menu also because we have been book studies of one concept all our lives some of us.
    The things in the news today demand we take a fresh look at the Bible with the revealer of secrets help. This is a copy of my facebook post to encourage:
    “Many are in need during this cold winter and depressed, often we overlook Jesus. We can go straight (one on one) to God now thru Jesus. Talk to him your Father, He will help.

    John 16:23, 24New Living Translation (NLT)
    “23 At that time you won’t need to ask me for anything. I tell you the truth, you will ask the Father directly, and he will grant your request because you use my name. 24 You haven’t done this before. Ask, using my name, and you will receive, and you will have abundant joy.”

  128. jacqueline says:

    Dave, today I mentioned something about Trump, a witness asked if I heard about the troops being taken out of Syria. They said Jehovah is about to act and they mentioned this as a sign. I spoke and talked about the nation’s could line up against Israel. I saw the expressions change as they don’t know about natural Israel. But at least someone is talking about this within their org.
    Note to self: do not mention Jesus as the one coming. I was corrected sternly with No it is Jehovah! There was actually a strong dislike in the voice for mentioning him. I want peace this month so I will just listen and not mention Jesus to witnesses during this holiday season.
    I am enjoying family now and in the coming week I will be with another set of witness and non witness mix.
    Enjoy your family I realize the coming of Christ will bring special Joy to you and your wife as you have 3 darling children to welcome back in the resurrection. May God keep you folded in his loving arms. Hug your wife for me please for I think of both of you and your broken 💕.

  129. jacqueline says:

    Dave, in the early morning hours I find communion with God is powerful at dusk for me.
    I was considering 1Thessalonians 5. It seems to go along with Luke 21 and Matt24 and Mark 13 on not setting a date when we see revolutions and wars. He even says don’t go out after those coming in his name saying he is there. He will come with the clouds and all will see him at some point. I will look for more scriptures that deals specifically with that beginning of distress.
    This is just so encouraging to not filter through what I have learned. I have found for me to understand and not grieve the Spirit, I have to throw the baby out with the bathwater to let God get in. See you guys tonight.

  130. jacqueline says:

    Dave and others. Joel chapter 3; Ezekial 38 and Daniel 11 all play into what we see today with Russia.
    They paraded by sea around the waters during Israel holy days to scare them. Although recent brothers say they don’t see the United States and current governments, I see Korea saying “they are strong when they are really weak.” The nations in turmoil over this nuclear babble talk. And America and Israel aren’t on the best of terms while Russia has been drawn into the trouble with the middle east.
    Joel 3 seems to be in fulfillment of last days. Just my take got to look further.
    Luke 21:28 gives us comfort as it seems our deliverance will be near.
    Horror amidst all the building and prosperity and life can change in the blink of an eye.

  131. Greg says:

    I wanted to share a discourse I really enjoyed. What I really liked about it was that it was thought-provoking and scripturally presented. I’m not suggesting it is the definitive final say on every idea presented, but it sure gave me some scriptural support for things I already believe and appreciate from my own scriptural studies.

    Ideas discussed include:
    Is Hell a literal place of fiery torment?
    Where is the place of torment located? In the earth, or in heaven, in the presence of God and Jesus?
    What does Ezekiel 16 say as to the future of Sodom?
    How does one understand Jesus Parable about the rich man and Lazarus?
    What about the wheat and the tares?

    Listen to David Rice explore these and other questions here:
    Go to:
    and scroll down to: 910 Fire
    or directly download the mp3 here:

    • jacqueline says:

      Greg, I listened to “fire” and got some additional talking points on how to discuss that there is no concept of a burning hell or torment of humans. Thanks for posting. I will listen to the next one tonight.

  132. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    I was reading John 14 this morning. It makes things so clear!

    Jesus tells us in vs 6 : Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

    Here he makes it clear that he is the only mediator between God and man, not an organization.

    12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
    So if we truly believe in him we will show by our actions that we are true followers of Christ and will manifest this in our lives.
    15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. 18 I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19 Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.
    23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
    25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

    Yes if we truly believe in Christ and faithfully follow his footsteps we have the wonderful gift of Holy Spirit as an advocate. The Advocate will teach us and remind us of Jesus words, helping us to understand his word. While we always want to consider others views the bottom line is that we allow Gods spirit to direct us. Books are wonderful and many brothers and sisters have expressed much insight into the Scriptures. We never want to ignore the opinions of others. We can learn much from the insight of other Bible Scholars. Pastor Russell has much fine Bible based truth and fine advice, but neither he nor any man or organization has been commissioned by Christ to be our ADVOCATE! Only the Bible should be our final authority! It is only by being taught by Holy Spirit under the direction of our King and mediator Christ Jesus that we gain salvation and the promise as true Christians.
    What is that promise? Notice Jesus Words:

    14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

    There is no ambiguity here! All true followers of Jesus have the wonderful hope and promise that if we are truly faithful, we will be with him when he returns! There are many fine points in this chapter. I could not cover them all. But I found it very encouraging and thought I would share what I personally got of this wonderful message.

    • jacqueline says:

      Ted, thanks for this strong scripture. I love Jesus account in John it is his last words to us as to all we have to do to get to God.
      I feel confident in studying alone and in our small group and with anyone now, with just the Bible. I will read others thoughts in books but not devote myself to a study of any book for hours weekly but the Bible.
      It isn’t healthy to devote so much time to one man’s ideas on the Bible. Holy Spirit can let my heart and mind discern what Jesus says.
      John is worth memorizing, Jesus is laying it out here.

    • jacqueline says:

      Wow, Ted thanks you don’t realize we were discussing this today before I read this and it is right on the money of what we concluded. The Bible is clear believers and followers of Christ can expect to be where he is. It isn’t just a few anointed ones that are chosen and the rest of the Church is to submit to these ones.
      I believe the Bride class is different and are chosen from where the Bible actually says she is chosen.
      And all other Nations, Tribes, and Tongues make up the Church.

  133. Greg says:

    I recall reading the Bible cover to cover with fresh eyes, and without the fear and terror I had been programmed with, and then I recall seeing so many things come clear to me—#1 thing: Ransom for ALL—and wondering to myself, surely I can’t be the only one who’s discovered these insights and truths. In the years since then, my questions have grown faster than my answer base, but my understanding has deepened and been so enriched that I often forget how far I’ve come, and how many things I had to sort out/overturn/abandon/etc… to get here. It does make it seem lonely sometimes, and I fully appreciate Jesus’ words to his disciples, “I have so many more things I’d love to tell you, but you’ve already got enough to try to assimilate. I won’t burden you with them at this time. Soon, though…”

  134. jacqueline says:

    Dave when you asked one week; “who wants to just study the Bible only with me, without filtering it thru long-held beliefs or any dogma?”
    As radical as the idea was (yes we have been doing book studies of one man’s thoughts only) I said I would, then Henry, then Jeff and the ragtag team was started.
    There were attempts to derail us but we have persevered and seen God say to do this!
    We were still on BigBlueButton 45mins after you hung up and then more conversation by phone until 1 o’clock am. The incredible insight into Matt 24: and Luke 21 noticing how Luke is all about the actual events of to 70CE. The four apostles asked about the end of the world and now instead of trying to harmonize we realize these are different.
    So I ask, why is it that no religion we have been associated with realized this?

  135. Greg says:

    I am eager to join on Thursdays. Meantime, in reliving the discussion on our Ex-JW comfort meeting tonight, I was reminded of something that I wondered about that would have fit in with the discussion from the 29th. Jacqueline suggested I leave it here as a question to stimulate curiosity in the minds of others.
    What happened to all the golden temple decorations, artifacts, and utensils after the destruction of Jerusalem? Where are they now, today?
    I have a pretty good idea, but wondered if anyone else had any idea.

  136. jacqueline says:

    Dave, I really like these notes and summary. Now we will be able to focus our research on certain differences and see what is going on here.
    As a witness, we couldn’t get the proper understanding of any future happenings in the
    Olivet prophecies because the witnesses teach “replacement theology”. Since the Jews will accept Christ as we have now learned, we have to take a fresh look at these prophecies.
    Dave and others, I am just loving digging in the Bible in the 21st century with the internet as help in getting at knowledge fast.

    Daniel 12:4
    ASV “But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

    AMP “But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the scroll until the end of time. Many will go back and forth and search anxiously [through the scroll], and knowledge [of the purpose of God as revealed by His prophets] will [greatly] increase.”

  137. Marjo says:

    I’m looking forward to be in this one too next week.

  138. jacqueline says:

    We had a powerful study tonight. Renee and Una had prayers that calmed our hearts.
    Dave, Kent, and Jeff, brothers in Christ, the conversations were tough but we all benefited. Welcome our other brother listening in.
    The computer network specialist in California, Josh, that helped us with connection suggestions, thank you so much. All of this made our study tonight a blessing. We will meet again on Thursday.

  139. Nubby Tope says:

    I’m in UK so what British time can I join in?

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