Do We Play A Major Part In Our Salvation? (A Group Discussion)

This is a discussion by Chuck Missler.  Below that will be a presentation script by Br. Dave.

Some thoughts will be presented in the comment section to the right. What are your thoughts? We would love to hear them.


Christians at times become concerned over their salvation. We sometimes wonder if we are truly forgiven for our sins.

Can we lose our salvation? What about the unforgivable sin mentioned by Jesus?

Please feel free to discuss it here.

Br. Dave's research is here:

Acts 11:19-21 YLT
(19)  Those, indeed, therefore, having been scattered abroad, from the tribulation that came after Stephen, went through unto Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, speaking the word to none except to Jews only;
(20)  and there were certain of them men of Cyprus and Cyrene, who having entered into Antioch, were speaking unto the Hellenists, proclaiming good news—the Lord Jesus,
(21)  and the hand of the Lord was with them, a great number also, having believed, did turn unto the Lord.

(21)  "a great number . . . did turn G1994 to the Lord."

turn G1994
- Original: ἐπιστρέφω
- Transliteration: Epistrepho
- Phonetic: ep-ee-stref'-o
- Definition:
1. transitively
a. to turn to
1. to the worship of the true God
b. to cause to return, to bring back
1. to the love and obedience of God
2. to the love for the children
3. to love wisdom and righteousness
2. intransitively
a. to turn to one's self
b. to turn one's self about, turn back
c. to return, turn back, come back
- Origin: from G1909 and G4762
- TDNT entry: 19:02,1
- Part(s) of speech: Verb

- Strong's: From G1909 and G4762; to revert (literally figuratively or morally): - come (go) again convert (re-) turn (about again).
Total KJV Occurrences: 29
• about, 4
Mat_9:22; Mar_5:30; Mar_8:33; Joh_21:20

• again, 3
Luk_8:55; Act_15:36; 2Pe_2:22

• convert, 1

• converted, 3
Joh_12:40; Act_3:19; Act_28:27

• converteth, 1

• returned, 2
Luk_2:20; 1Pe_2:25

• turn, 7
Luk_1:16; Luk_1:17; Act_14:15; Act_26:20; 2Co_3:16; Gal_4:9; 2Pe_2:21

• turned, 7
Act_9:35; Act_11:21; Act_15:19; Act_16:18; 1Th_1:9; Rev_1:12(2)

• turning, 1

NOTE that this word is also translated in other verses as "convert, converted, converteth".

About this word, Vines New Testament Dictionary says:
A. Verbs.
1. strepho (G4762), "to turn," is translated "be converted" in Mat_18:3, KJV. See TURN.
2. epistrepho (G1994), "to turn about, turn towards" (epi, "towards" and No. 1), is used transitively, and so rendered "convert" (of causing a person to turn) in Jam_5:19-20. Elsewhere, where the KJV translates this verb, either in the middle voice and intransitive use, or the passive, the RV adheres to the middle voice significance, and translates by "turn again," Mat_13:15; Mar_4:12; Luk_22:32; Act_3:19; Act_28:27. See COME (again), Note (4), GO (again), RETURN, TURN.
B. Noun.
epistrophe (G1995), akin to A, No. 2, "a turning about, or round, conversion," is found in Act_15:3. The word implies "a turning from and a turning to"; corresponding to these are repentance and faith; cf. "turned to God from idols" (1Th_1:9). Divine grace is the efficient cause, human agency the responding effect.

It is logical to say that there must be a point where YHVH considers a person to be converted.

It seems that in this case, these people in Antioch believed the preaching of these persecuted Christians, and they not only agreed with their teaching but also "changed" or "transformed" their lives.

Once this change of heart takes place, when a person truly repents, accepts YHVH's standard insted of his or her own, turns away from his/her old ways of thinking about and doing things, and receives YHVH's Spirit, s/he is converted.

Notice, however, how this scene continues:

Then news of these things came to the ears of the church in
Jerusalem, and they sent out Barnabas to go as far as Antioch.
When he came and had seen "the grace of God", he was glad, and encouraged them all that with purpose of heart they should "cleave to G4357 the Lord". (Act_11:22-23)

cleave to G4357
- Original: προσμένω
- Transliteration: Prosmeno
- Phonetic: pros-men'-o
- Definition:
1. to remain with, to continue with one
2. to hold fast to: the grace of God received in the Gospel
3. to remain still, tarry, stay
- Origin: from G4314 and G3306
- TDNT entry: 13:39,6
- Part(s) of speech: Verb

- Strong's: From G4314 and G3306; to stay further that is remain in a place with a person; figuratively to adhere to persevere in: - abide still be with cleave unto continue in (with).
Total KJV Occurrences: 4
• continueth, 1

• still, 1

• tarried, 1

• unto, 1

Also notice that one of the origin words is "abide", a powerful word choice indeed:

Abide H3427 G3306
- Original: ישׁב
- Transliteration: Yashab
- Phonetic: yaw-shab'
- Definition:
1. to dwell, remain, sit, abide
a. (Qal)
1. to sit, sit down
2. to be set
3. to remain, stay
4. to dwell, have one's abode
b. (Niphal) to be inhabited
c. (Piel) to set, place
d. (Hiphil)
1. to cause to sit
2. to cause to abide, set
3. to cause to dwell
4. to cause (cities) to be inhabited
5. to marry (give an dwelling to)
e. (Hophal)
1. to be inhabited
2. to make to dwell
- Origin: a primitive root
- TWOT entry: 922
- Part(s) of speech: Verb

- Strong's: A primitive root; properly to sit down (specifically as judge in ambush in quiet); by implication to dwell to remain; causatively to settle to marry: - (make to) abide (-ing) continue (cause to make to) dwell (-ing) ease self endure establish X fail habitation haunt (make to) inhabit (-ant) make to keep [house] lurking X marry (-ing) (bring again to) place remain return seat set (-tle) (down-) sit (-down still -ting down -ting [place] -uate) take tarry.
Total KJV Occurrences: 1081
• abide, 30
Gen_22:5; Gen_24:55; Gen_29:19; Gen_44:33; Exo_16:29; Lev_8:35; Num_22:5; Num_35:25; Deu_3:19; 1Sa_1:22; 1Sa_5:7; 1Sa_19:2; 1Sa_22:5; 1Sa_22:23; 1Sa_30:21; 2Sa_11:11; 2Sa_15:19; 2Sa_16:18; 2Ch_25:19; 2Ch_32:10; Job_24:13; Job_38:40; Psa_61:7; Jer_42:10; Jer_49:18; Jer_49:33; Jer_50:40; Hos_3:3; Hos_3:4; Mic_5:4

• abideth, 4
2Sa_16:3; Psa_55:19; Psa_125:1; Jer_21:9

• abiding, 2
Jdg_16:9; Jdg_16:12

• abode, 33
Gen_29:14; Gen_49:24; Num_20:1; Num_22:8; Num_25:1; Deu_1:46(2); Deu_3:29; Deu_9:9; Jos_2:22; Jos_5:8; Jos_8:9; Jdg_11:17; Jdg_19:4; Jdg_20:47; Jdg_21:2; 1Sa_1:23; 1Sa_7:2; 1Sa_13:16; 1Sa_22:6; 1Sa_23:14; 1Sa_23:18; 1Sa_23:25; 1Sa_25:13; 1Sa_26:3; 2Sa_1:1; 2Sa_11:12; 2Sa_15:8; 1Ki_17:19; 2Ki_19:27; Ezr_8:32; Isa_37:28; Jer_38:28

• abodest, 1

• continue, 2
Lev_12:4; Lev_12:5

• continued, 3
Jdg_5:17; 2Sa_6:11; 1Ki_22:1

• down, 28
Gen_21:16; Gen_37:25; Exo_2:15; Exo_32:6; Jdg_19:6; Jdg_19:15; Rth_4:1(3); Rth_4:2(2); 1Sa_20:24; 2Sa_2:13; 1Ki_2:19; 1Ki_19:4; Ezr_9:3; Ezr_10:16; Neh_1:4; Est_3:15; Job_2:8; Job_2:13; Psa_137:1; Son_2:3; Isa_52:2; Jer_13:18; Jer_26:10; Jer_36:15; Lam_3:63

• downsitting, 1

• dwell, 205
Gen_4:20; Gen_13:6(2); Gen_19:30; Gen_20:15; Gen_24:3; Gen_24:37; Gen_34:10(2); Gen_34:16; Gen_34:21; Gen_34:22; Gen_34:23; Gen_35:1; Gen_36:7; Gen_45:10; Gen_46:34; Gen_47:4; Gen_47:6(2); Exo_2:21; Exo_23:33; Lev_13:46; Lev_20:22; Lev_23:42(2); Lev_23:43; Lev_25:18; Lev_25:19; Lev_26:5; Lev_26:32; Num_13:19(2); Num_13:28; Num_13:29(3); Num_32:17; Num_33:53; Num_33:55; Num_35:32; Deu_2:4; Deu_2:29(2); Deu_11:30; Deu_11:31; Deu_12:10(2); Deu_13:12; Deu_17:14; Deu_23:16; Deu_25:5; Deu_28:30; Deu_30:20; Jos_9:7; Jos_9:22; Jos_10:6; Jos_13:13; Jos_14:4; Jos_15:63; Jos_16:10; Jos_17:12; Jos_17:16; Jos_20:4; Jos_20:6; Jos_21:2; Jos_24:13; Jos_24:15; Jdg_1:21; Jdg_1:27; Jdg_1:35; Jdg_6:10; Jdg_9:41; Jdg_17:10; Jdg_17:11; Jdg_18:1; 1Sa_12:8; 1Sa_27:5(2); 2Sa_7:2; 2Sa_7:5; 1Ki_2:36; 1Ki_3:17; 1Ki_8:27; 1Ki_17:9; 2Ki_4:13; 2Ki_6:1; 2Ki_6:2; 2Ki_17:27; 2Ki_25:24; 1Ch_17:1; 2Ch_2:3; 2Ch_6:18; 2Ch_8:2; 2Ch_8:11; 2Ch_19:10; Neh_8:14; Neh_11:1; Neh_11:2; Psa_4:8; Psa_23:6; Psa_24:1; Psa_27:4; Psa_65:8; Psa_68:16; Psa_69:25; Psa_69:35; Psa_84:4; Psa_98:7; Psa_101:6; Psa_101:7; Psa_107:34; Psa_107:36; Psa_132:14; Psa_133:1; Psa_140:13; Psa_143:3; Pro_21:9; Pro_21:19; Pro_25:24; Isa_6:5; Isa_9:2; Isa_23:18; Isa_24:6; Isa_26:5; Isa_30:19; Isa_32:18; Isa_33:24; Isa_49:20; Isa_51:6; Isa_58:12; Jer_4:29; Jer_8:16; Jer_9:26; Jer_12:4; Jer_20:6; Jer_23:8; Jer_24:8; Jer_25:5; Jer_27:11; Jer_29:5; Jer_29:28; Jer_29:32; Jer_31:24; Jer_32:37; Jer_35:7; Jer_35:9; Jer_35:11; Jer_35:15; Jer_40:5; Jer_40:9; Jer_40:10(2); Jer_42:13; Jer_42:14; Jer_43:4; Jer_44:1(2); Jer_44:13; Jer_44:14; Jer_44:26; Jer_47:2; Jer_48:9; Jer_48:28; Jer_49:1; Jer_49:8; Jer_49:30; Jer_50:3; Jer_50:39(2); Jer_51:1; Eze_2:6; Eze_12:19; Eze_16:46; Eze_28:25; Eze_28:26(2); Eze_32:15; Eze_34:25; Eze_34:28; Eze_36:28; Eze_36:33; Eze_37:25(2); Eze_38:8; Eze_38:11; Eze_38:12; Eze_39:6; Eze_39:9; Hos_9:3; Hos_12:9; Hos_14:7; Joe_3:20; Amo_3:12; Amo_5:11; Amo_9:5; Mic_7:13; Nah_1:5; Hab_2:8; Hab_2:17; Zep_1:18; Hag_1:4; Zec_8:4; Zec_9:6; Zec_14:11

• dwelled, 6
Gen_13:7; Gen_13:12(2); Gen_20:1; Rth_1:4; 1Sa_12:11

• dwellest, 14
Deu_12:29; Deu_19:1; Deu_26:1; 2Ki_19:15; Psa_80:1; Psa_123:1; Son_8:13; Isa_10:24; Isa_37:16; Isa_47:8; Lam_4:21; Eze_7:7; Eze_12:2; Zec_2:7

• dwelleth, 20
Num_13:18; Jos_6:25; 1Sa_4:4; 1Sa_27:11; 2Sa_6:2; 2Sa_7:2; 1Ch_13:6; Psa_9:11; Psa_91:1; Psa_113:5; Pro_3:29; Jer_29:16; Jer_44:2; Jer_49:31; Jer_51:43; Lam_1:3; Eze_16:46; Eze_38:14; Hos_4:3; Amo_8:8

• dwelling, 15
Gen_25:27; Jos_13:21; 1Ki_8:30; 1Ki_8:39; 1Ki_8:43; 1Ki_8:49; 1Ki_21:8; 2Ki_17:25; 2Ch_6:2; 2Ch_6:21; 2Ch_6:30; 2Ch_6:33; 2Ch_6:39; Jer_46:19; Eze_38:11

• dwelt, 189
Gen_4:16; Gen_11:2; Gen_11:31; Gen_13:18; Gen_14:7; Gen_14:12; Gen_16:3; Gen_19:29; Gen_19:30(2); Gen_21:20; Gen_21:21; Gen_22:19; Gen_23:10; Gen_24:62; Gen_25:11; Gen_26:6; Gen_26:17; Gen_36:8; Gen_37:1; Gen_38:11; Gen_47:27; Gen_50:22; Exo_2:15; Exo_12:40; Lev_18:3; Lev_26:35; Num_14:25; Num_14:45; Num_20:15; Num_21:1; Num_21:25; Num_21:31; Num_21:34;

Abide G3306
- Original: μένω
- Transliteration: meno
- Phonetic: men'-o
- Definition:
1. to remain, abide
a. in reference to place
1. to sojourn, tarry
2. not to depart 1a
b. to continue to be present 1a
c. to be held, kept, continually
d. in reference to time
1. to continue to be, not to perish, to last, endure 1b
e. of persons, to survive, live
f. in reference to state or condition
1. to remain as one, not to become another or different
2. to wait for, await one
- Origin: a root word
- TDNT entry: 13:34,6
- Part(s) of speech: Verb

- Strong's: A primary verb; to stay (in a given place state relation or expectancy): - abide continue dwell endure be present remain stand tarry (for) X thine own.
Total KJV Occurrences: 85
• abide, 13
Luk_24:29; Act_16:15; Act_20:23; Act_27:31; 1Co_3:14; 1Co_7:8; 1Co_7:20; 1Co_7:24; 1Co_7:40; Php_1:25; 1Jn_2:24; 1Jn_2:27; 1Jn_2:28

• abideth, 16
Joh_3:36; Joh_12:34; 1Co_13:13; 2Ti_2:13; Heb_7:3; 1Pe_1:23; 1Jn_2:6; 1Jn_2:10; 1Jn_2:14; 1Jn_2:17; 1Jn_2:27; 1Jn_3:6; 1Jn_3:14; 1Jn_3:24; 2Jn_1:9(2)

• abiding, 1

• abode, 11
Luk_1:56; Luk_8:27; Joh_1:32; Joh_1:39; Joh_4:40; Joh_7:9; Joh_10:40; Act_18:3; Act_21:7; Act_21:8; 2Ti_4:20

• continue, 5
1Ti_2:15; 2Ti_3:14; Heb_13:1; 1Jn_2:24; Rev_17:10

• continued, 2
Joh_2:12; 1Jn_2:19

• continueth, 1

• continuing, 1

• dwell, 2
Act_28:16; 1Jn_4:13

• dwellest, 1

• dwelleth, 7
1Jn_3:17; 1Jn_3:24; 1Jn_4:12; 1Jn_4:15; 1Jn_4:16(2); 2Jn_1:2

• dwelt, 2
Joh_1:39; Act_28:30

• endureth, 1

• enduring, 1

• own, 1

• remain, 5
Joh_19:31; 1Co_7:11; 1Co_15:6; Heb_12:27; 1Jn_2:24

• remained, 2
Act_5:4; Act_27:41

• remaineth, 4
2Co_3:11; 2Co_3:14; 2Co_9:9; 1Jn_3:9

• remaining, 1

• stand, 1

• tarried, 3
Act_9:43; Act_20:5; Act_20:15

• tarry, 4
Luk_24:29; Joh_4:40; Joh_21:23; Act_18:20

Though the church was young at this point, its leaders had already learned that people can, after the excitement of their "first love" of the truth wanes, fall back into their old, sinful way of life.
They can revert to carnality.
Some fall away altogether.

The problem is that they do not continue (cleave to, abide) with YHVH through HIS WORD.

Aftrer all, it's so much easier to do what the worldly friends, religious organizations, televangelists, internet preachers, etc. tell a person it's OK to do, than it is to study and adhere (continue, cleave to, abide) in YHVH's Word to follow His standard.

In other words, they do not persist in being converted more
completely, or as the wuthor of Hebrews puts it, they do not "unto perfection... advance" (Heb_6:1-3).
Hebrews 6:1-3 YLT
(1)  Wherefore, having left the word of the beginning of the Christ, unto the perfection we may advance, not again a foundation laying of reformation from dead works, and of faith on God,
(2)  of the teaching of baptisms, of laying on also of hands, of rising again also of the dead, and of judgment age-during,
(3)  and this we will do, if God may permit,

This teaches us that conversion is not a one-time event but a process that begins with a single event.

Like conversion, salvation is also a process.

In one sense, it happens all at once when we are justified, as YHVH reckons us to be saved at that point.

However, justification is only the initial part of a much greater process that will take the rest of our lives to complete.

And the author of Hebrews makes it crystal clear that no matter what the worldly friends, religious organizations, televangelists, internet preachers, etc. tell their adherents, "Once saved always saved" is a human contrivance, not YHVH's Standard:
Hebrews 6:4-6 YLT
(4)  for it is impossible for those once enlightened, having tasted also of the heavenly gift, and partakers having became of the Holy Spirit,
(5)  and did taste the good saying of God, the powers also of the coming age,
(6)  and having fallen away, again to renew them to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.

And, in Heb_10:26-27
Hebrews 10:26-27 YLT
(26)  For we—wilfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth—no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice,
(27)  but a certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery zeal, about to devour the opposers;

And also from Peter:
2 Peter 2:20-22 YLT
(20)  for, if having escaped from the pollutions of the world, in the acknowledging of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and by these again being entangled, they have been overcome, become to them hath the last things worse than the first,
(21)  for it were better to them not to have acknowledged the way of the righteousness, than having acknowledged it , to turn back from the holy command delivered to them,
(22)  and happened to them hath that of the true similitude; 'A dog did turn back upon his own vomit,' and, 'A sow having bathed herself—to rolling in mire.'

Earlier in this chapter, Pater wanrs us of listening to teachers who claim their own truth:
2 Peter 2:1-22 YLT
(1)  And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction,
(2)  and many shall follow out their destructive ways, because of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of,
(3)  and in covetousness, with moulded words, of you they shall make merchandise, whose judgment of old is not idle, and their destruction doth not slumber.
(4)  For if God messengers who sinned did not spare, but with chains of thick gloom, having cast them down to Tartarus, did deliver them to judgment, having been reserved,
(5)  and the old world did not spare, but the eighth person, Noah, of righteousness a preacher, did keep, a flood on the world of the impious having brought,
(6)  and the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah having turned to ashes, with an overthrow did condemn, an example to those about to be impious having set them ;
(7)  and righteous Lot, worn down by the conduct in lasciviousness of the impious, He did rescue,
(8)  for in seeing and hearing, the righteous man, dwelling among them, day by day the righteous soul with unlawful works was harassing.
(9)  The Lord hath known to rescue pious ones out of temptation, and unrighteous ones to a day of judgment, being punished, to keep,
(10)  and chiefly those going behind the flesh in desire of uncleanness, and lordship despising; presumptuous, self-complacent, dignities they are not afraid to speak evil of,
(11)  whereas messengers, in strength and power being greater, do not bear against them before the Lord an evil speaking judgment;
(12)  and these, as irrational natural beasts, made to be caught and destroyed—in what things they are ignorant of, speaking evil—in their destruction shall be destroyed,
(13)  about to receive a reward of unrighteousness, pleasures counting the luxury in the day, spots and blemishes, luxuriating in their deceits, feasting with you,
(14)  having eyes full of adultery, and unable to cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having an heart exercised in covetousnesses, children of a curse,
(15)  having forsaken a right way, they did go astray, having followed in the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who a reward of unrighteousness did love,
(16)  and had a rebuke of his own iniquity—a dumb ass, in man's voice having spoken, did forbid the madness of the prophet.
(17)  These are wells without water, and clouds by a tempest driven, to whom the thick gloom of the darkness to the age hath been kept;
(18)  for overswellings of vanity speaking, they do entice in desires of the flesh—lasciviousnesses, those who had truly escaped from those conducting themselves in error,
(19)  liberty to them promising, themselves being servants of the corruption, for by whom any one hath been overcome, to this one also he hath been brought to servitude,
(20)  for, if having escaped from the pollutions of the world, in the acknowledging of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, and by these again being entangled, they have been overcome, become to them hath the last things worse than the first,
(21)  for it were better to them not to have acknowledged the way of the righteousness, than having acknowledged it , to turn back from the holy command delivered to them,
(22)  and happened to them hath that of the true similitude; 'A dog did turn back upon his own vomit,' and, 'A sow having bathed herself—to rolling in mire.'

And this we see in everyday life:
Teaching and learning is important because it involves truth and error.
What a student learns becomes ingrained in the heart and soul.
The student develops an attachment to it.
If this “learning” is false - if the student comes to believe that something untrue is actually true - so much the worse.
It will be hard to convince the person otherwise.
And if the truth or error involves our eternal destiny, the stakes only go up.
Not only the student but also for anybody else the student later teaches the false doctrine - and for all those that are taught down that teaching tree.
The Trinity (NOT in the Bible - look up its history).

In fact, the Bible says:

We HAVE BEEN saved (Eph_2:1-8; 2Ti_1:9-10; Tit_3:3-7; etc.), Ephesians 2:1-8 YLT
(1)  Also you—being dead in the trespasses and the sins,
(2)  in which once ye did walk according to the age of this world, according to the ruler of the authority of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience,
(3)  among whom also we all did walk once in the desires of our flesh, doing the wishes of the flesh and of the thoughts, and were by nature children of wrath—as also the others,
(4)  and God, being rich in kindness, because of His great love with which He loved us,
(5)  even being dead in the trespasses, did make us to live together with the Christ, (by grace ye are having been saved,)
(6)  and did raise us up together, and did seat us together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
(7)  that He might show, in the ages that are coming, the exceeding riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus,
(8)  for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you—of God the gift,

2 Timothy 1:9-10 YLT
(9)  who did save us, and did call with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, that was given to us in Christ Jesus, before the times of the ages,
(10)  and was made manifest now through the manifestation of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who indeed did abolish death, and did enlighten life and immortality through the good news,

Titus 3:3-7 YLT
(3)  for we were once—also we—thoughtless, disobedient, led astray, serving desires and pleasures manifold, in malice and envy living, odious—hating one another;
(4)  and when the kindness and the love to men of God our Saviour did appear
(5)  (not by works that are in righteousness that we did but according to His kindness,) He did save us, through a bathing of regeneration, and a renewing of the Holy Spirit,
(6)  which He poured upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour,
(7)  that having been declared righteous by His grace, heirs we may become according to the hope of life age-during.

We ARE BEING saved (1Co_1:18-21; 2Co_2:15; Php_2:12-15; etc.), and,

1 Corinthians 1:18-21 YLT
(18)  for the word of the cross to those indeed perishing is foolishness, and to us—those being saved—it is the power of God,
(19)  for it hath been written, 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the intelligence of the intelligent I will bring to nought;'
(20)  where is the wise? where the scribe? where a disputer of this age? did not God make foolish the wisdom of this world?
(21)  for, seeing in the wisdom of God the world through the wisdom knew not God, it did please God through the foolishness of the preaching to save those believing.

2 Corinthians 2:15 YLT
(15)  because of Christ a sweet fragrance we are to God, in those being saved, and in those being lost;

Philippians 2:12-15 YLT
(12)  So that, my beloved, as ye always obey, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, with fear and trembling your own salvation work out,
(13)  for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
(14)  All things do without murmurings and reasonings,
(15)  that ye may become blameless and harmless, children of God, unblemished in the midst of a generation crooked and perverse, among whom ye do appear as luminaries in the world,

We WILL BE saved (Rom_5:8-11; Rom_13:11; Heb_9:26-28; 1Pe_1:3-12; etc.) -

Romans 5:8-11 YLT
(8)  and God doth commend His own love to us, that, in our being still sinners, Christ did die for us;
(9)  much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;
(10)  for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.
(11)  And not only so , but we are also boasting in God, through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom now we did receive the reconciliation;

Romans 13:11 YLT
(11)  And this, knowing the time, that for us, the hour already is to be aroused out of sleep, for now nearer is our salvation than when we did believe;

Hebrews 9:26-28 YLT
(26)  since it had behoved him many times to suffer from the foundation of the world, but now once, at the full end of the ages, for putting away of sin through his sacrifice, he hath been manifested;
(27)  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this—judgment,
(28)  so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him—to salvation!

1 Peter 1:3-12 YLT
(3)  Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to the abundance of His kindness did beget us again to a living hope, through the rising again of Jesus Christ out of the dead,
(4)  to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and unfading, reserved in the heavens for you,
(5)  who, in the power of God are being guarded, through faith, unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time,
(6)  in which ye are glad, a little now, if it be necessary, being made to sorrow in manifold trials,
(7)  that the proof of your faith—much more precious than of gold that is perishing, and through fire being approved—may be found to praise, and honour, and glory, in the revelation of Jesus Christ,
(8)  whom, not having seen, ye love, in whom, now not seeing and believing, ye are glad with joy unspeakable and glorified,
(9)  receiving the end of your faith—salvation of souls;
(10)  concerning which salvation seek out and search out did prophets who concerning the grace toward you did prophecy,
(11)  searching in regard to what or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ that was in them was manifesting, testifying beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory after these,
(12)  to whom it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to us they were ministering these, which now were told to you (through those who did proclaim good news to you,) in the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, to which things messengers do desire to bend looking.

clearly illustrating a process with past, present, and future aspects, which are respectively justification, sanctification, and glorification.

Conversion is similar.

YHVH converts us upon the receipt of the Holy Spirit, but we still have the remainder of our lives to live following YHVH's instructions - His Standard, not ours or anybody else's - and to imitate the holy, righteous character of Yeshua Messiah (
Rom_8:29; 2Co_3:18; Eph_5:1; Col_3:9-10; 1Th_1:6; etc.).

Our initial conversion (turning) is merely the first touch of
YHVH's mind upon us.

We have so much further to go.

Truly, we will not be completely converted to YHVH and His way of life until we are resurrected from the dead (1Co_15:50-53).

Thus, those who have only recently been baptized and received YHVH's Spirit are newborns (1Pe_2:2) in the lifelong process of transformation to reflect the righteous character of YHVH (Rom_12:2).

The writer of Hebrews points out:
Hebrews 5:13-14 YLT
(13)  for every one who is partaking of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness—for he is an infant,
(14)  and of perfect men is the strong food, who because of the use are having the senses exercised, unto the discernment both of good and of evil.

In a similar vein, Paul writes in 1Co_3:1-3:
1 Corinthians 3:1-3 YLT
(1)  And I, brethren, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as to fleshly—as to babes in Christ;
(2)  with milk I fed you, and not with meat, for ye were not yet able, but not even yet are ye now able,
(3)  for yet ye are fleshly, for where there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not fleshly, and in the manner of men do walk?

In Eph_4:11-14, Paul explains this concept in terms of
the work of the ministry:
Ephesians 4:11-14 YLT
(11)  and He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as proclaimers of good news, and some as shepherds and teachers,
(12)  unto the perfecting of the saints, for a work of ministration, for a building up of the body of the Christ,
(13)  till we may all come to the unity of the faith and of the recognition of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to a measure of stature of the fulness of the Christ,
(14)  that we may no more be babes, tossed and borne about by every wind of the teaching, in the sleight of men, in craftiness, unto the artifice of leading astray,

He describes conversion in terms of growth from childhood to maturity.
As babies grow into adolescents, and then into teens, young adults, middleagers, and senior citizens, so are Christians to develop spiritually.
Paul continues this thought in Eph_4:15, saying that our goal is:
Ephesians 4:15 YLT
(15)  and, being true in love, we may increase to Him in all things, who is the head—the Christ;

What's the one condition for reaching that goal?

"speaking the truth in love".

Where is that truth?

ONLY in YHVH's Word.

Conversion, then, is a process of spiritual development from carnal immaturity to as close as we can get to Christ-like maturity - or in its ultimate sense, divine perfection.

As Truth seekers and wanna-be disciples, we pray to continue through the process of conversion (spiritual transformation of character)-to-salvation - as far as we can until the end of this life.

That conversion-to-salvation is a process only makes sense.

It seems to me that it is just like the natural, human process of growth of a child.

What would one think of a "baby" that was born already mature, six feet tall and 190 pounds?

Aside from the poor mother who birthed a baby like that, the child would be abnormal, a freak, an anomaly.

YHVH did not design nature to work that way; living organisms must experience a process of growth, even if it is brief.

So, like a baby, a newly "regenerated" Christian (Tit_3:5)
Tit_3:1-7 CONTEXT
Titus 3:1-7 YLT
(1)  Remind them to be subject to principalities and authorities, to obey rule, unto every good work to be ready,
(2)  of no one to speak evil, not to be quarrelsome—gentle, showing all meekness to all men,
(3)  for we were once—also we—thoughtless, disobedient, led astray, serving desires and pleasures manifold, in malice and envy living, odious—hating one another;
(4)  and when the kindness and the love to men of God our Saviour did appear
(5)  (not by works that are in righteousness that we did but according to His kindness,) He did save us, through a bathing of regeneration, and a renewing of the Holy Spirit,
(6)  which He poured upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour,
(7)  that having been declared righteous by His grace, heirs we may become according to the hope of life age-during.

must grow and mature through the process of conversion from a state of carnality to spirituality, from flesh to Spirit (Rom_8:5-11).
Romans 8:5-11 YLT
(5)  For those who are according to the flesh, the things of the flesh do mind; and those according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit;
(6)  for the mind of the flesh is death, and the mind of the Spirit—life and peace;
(7)  because the mind of the flesh is enmity to God, for to the law of God it doth not subject itself,
(8)  for neither is it able; and those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.
(9)  And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ—this one is not His;
(10)  and if Christ is in you, the body, indeed, is dead because of sin, and the Spirit is life because of righteousness,
(11)  and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you.

9 Responses to Do We Play A Major Part In Our Salvation? (A Group Discussion)

  1. ted says:

    our fellowship, two or more gathered together this year, Judy and I. Still poor internet, but we’re looking for a home on land again, so who knows.

    • jacqueline says:

      Ted, I am so sorry to be late in answering you. I have been in classes from 8-4 for 5 days this week, getting my certification and CEUs.
      Do I know Judy? When you say a home on land, do you mean a literal home? Are you moving? Or do you mean a brick and Mortar meeting place rather than on Zoom or other platforms?
      All of our classes were Zoom this week for college courses but they also have in-person. We had a live instructor and I think I learned more than sitting in a classroom.
      Daniel was told about our technology age when he was told not to worry and that end of the day would have knowledge of traveling swiftly and with people moving quickly from one place to another. Thus the internet and other forms of communication. Even the radio and TV with their different platforms have allowed almost everyone to tune in to a group, large or small.
      I will send out the info from Dave to you also concerning the Memorial. He sent it to me already but I had to take a 3-hour test today after all classes were over.
      Tonight I will be the host of the Support Group, Henry is under the weather. Talk to you soon and look for my email with Memorial material from Dave. Take Care

      • Ted says:

        Good for you Jacqueline, school is a good thing even at our age. New home, yes we’ve lived on a 47 ft sloop for the last 14 years, so undependable internet. Now we are told by the kids that being old (we say older) we must move to land. The realities of boat life hit as our neighbor died onboard after some trying time. Hospice will not come to a boat because they say there is not enough room to do what they need to. So our home will no longer dance in the wind. The up side is we may get dependable internet and a garden. We hope Henry feels better; healing can become quite tiring for us all from time to time.
        As far as our time or the time of the end, we have often discussed the fact that Satan is referred to as the “god of the air”/controlling mental frame, and it seems appropriate given TV and the internet/ enter the net. The government did a study that showed that with the advent of the internet and the popular use of personal computers, almost without exception porn was viewed in every household in the US. We know that the so called harmless visual stimulus of porn images increases the appetite of the viewer, and as with food addiction the body’s chemistry is changed. This kind of pleasure, as the Bible states, has no satisfaction. So in the short history of the “net” the porn industry has become one of the largest in the world.

        Yes, truth will be abundant in the time of the end. The Bible doesn’t say it was going to be a good thing.

  2. jacqueline says:

    This scripture is what Jesus said: Matt. 12:31,32 “For this reason I say to you, every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven.”

    I believe only after the Millenium when the full knowledge of God is known can a person sin against the Holy Spirit.

    Partially because of the scripture in Hebrews 6:4-6. I believe this is a Millenial Age Scripture. Only then will we have tasted the heavenly gift in the “AGE TO COME”. If after all the goodness, repair, and righting of all things during the Millenium, we would be denying the Holy Spirit after seeing and experiencing all that.

    That is my take on it.

    Hebrews 6:4-6 “For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.”

    • ted says:

      My hit is this: once you exercise faith you are adopted as a child of God. Many say “you are saved”, but in the strictest sense this is not accurate. The thing hoped for is not the thing itself. At this point you are “reconciled to God”, in other words can approach. As you rightly point out in drawing attention to the new world/order to come through the “New administration” of our king Yeshua, which of course is our next destination, perfect earth our hope has not yet been realized. Perfect in this case means fits the will of the one in control, Yeshua.

      Yeshua is now the new “(g)od” of the air/frame of mind in this new order, rather than Satan. As we experience the “Twinkling” we receive the rest of the adoptive spirit, allowing us to ‘”see” or “meet” Yeshua in the “air”, knowing and being known accurately. Yeshua has descended to the earth and in this event all present now have received a permanent home rather than the tent we arrive in. Our citizenship has been reserved for us in heaven awaiting this very event. Now we receive these permanent homes in this new order. Our bodies are made of earth so in that sense we “inhabit” earth. Yeshua will have saved, all the “inhabited earth”. We have known all along that not every person will call on the name of God to be saved. This is how the “entire inhabited earth” will be saved.

      When you are adopted you receive a “token” of your inheritance from your adoptive Father Yahweh. This spirit allows you the mental capacity to progress in your understanding of the steps of reason laid out by Yeshua that form a path to draw closer to the frame of mind (Up-ward call) of Yeshua and finally our Father’s . It is this adoptive spirit that allows us to “see” the “evident demonstration of realities though not beheld”.

      Now this will lead you to the Salvation the Father is offering, but at any time you deny the truth of the things revealed and return to belief in other “ways”, the spirit will be taken from you. You will be lost forever. There are no other names besides Yeshua and Yahweh that will save you, you have grieved the spirit.

      Just one more opinion, do with it as you will brothers and sisters.

      • jacqueline says:

        Ted this is about the most simple presentation I have seen. I like the fact you like most of us realize we shall meet Jesus in the air. That it is not a few men within an organization will have this privilege.
        I agree the fullness of the Kingdom will happen during Millenium and then one can see the Holy Spirit operating and then attribute this to other gods, then they can sin against it.
        We all have to pray that his will is done and if we are praying we don’t have to worry about losing salvation. It is a free gif from Jehovah through the blood of Christ?

        How have you been? I am going to read your other comment and reply. We are in this discussion on Saturday night. We now have others who have never been a witness and also some from the Bible Student brothers. It has been a blessing to have our Small Bible Fellowship Thursday and Saturday. It has been nearly 15 years and we are so happy and free to be able to get to know what is actually in the Bible and not the doctrine contrived in the 1800s.
        Take Care and say hello to your family.
        I have most of my family back. The organization failed in its attempt to destroy me and my family. I prayed and Jehovah showed love and kindness by letting his Holy Spirit act on the hearts of my family.

        • ted says:

          Hello Jacqueline, we’re glad to see that the connection of footstep followers is stronger than an organization and your family draws together.

          It’s important to understand that while we struggle to understand God’s will as Yeshua reveals it that each of us receives enough to take a stand, but not enough to “see” it all.

          (1 Corinthians 13:12-13) . . .For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known. 13 Now, however, there remain faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

          Whether a vegetable eater or a meat eater, as the Bible puts it, the important thing is to stand firm, support each other, until the Twinkling when we each will receive a complete understanding of what we need to know. Let’s assure as best we can that the “hazy” outline we see in is not so over bearing presented that it causes a fog in another. Even Yeshua had to take into account what we could bear. Our words need to be UP building as our opinion, not expressed as a judgment.

          Holy Spirit or active force, is all the same energy. It is the energy to achieve the will for whatever God sets it to work on. We know of the gifts of the spirit that were experienced and then faded away, all except the “spirit of understanding”. There are many workings of the spirit, you know this scripture.

          Although the spirit of adoption is active on our minds it is not a gift as such, it is a “token” of our inheritance from our Father. This token operating on our minds, allows us to recall and connect information that will lead us, UP. There is no other way to say it, the path of logic leads the mind to a higher awareness. With every step of logic that we “arrive” at, we draw closer to God, to our Father, to his “frame” of mind. If we stay on the path and don’t greave the spirit by turning back, in this system, we will “arrive” at the “Twinkling”. Yes, you can greave the spirit now and in the system to come. This event, the Twinkling, happens for those still alive and those who receive the reward from their resurrection, return to life on earth.

          Keep track here that we strive to return to the frame of mind that Adam and Eve had before their inheritance was lost. They were one with God’s frame of mind. The process of being made in God’s image is a mental on-going process. Each step of logic is your grasp of a statement in reality put there originally by God, and with this grasp you “see” and “hear” him more clearly. Your mind becomes a mirror image, at least as far as you have drawn closer to his.

          Honestly, we are shooting for simple here. I hope these few references are enough for you to “hear”. Simple how the truth was hidden isn’t it
          (Jeremiah 6:10) . . .“To whom shall I speak and give warning, that they may hear? Look! Their ear is uncircumcised,

          (Revelation 2:7) . . .Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations: To him that conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God. . .

          (Isaiah 50:4) 4 The Sovereign Lord Yahweh himself has given me the tongue of the taught ones, that I may know how to answer the tired one with a word. He awakens morning by morning; he awakens my ear to hear like the taught ones.

          (Proverbs 18:15) 15 The heart of the understanding one acquires knowledge, and the ear of wise ones seeks to find knowledge

          (2 Timothy 4:1-5) 4 I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus, who is destined to judge the living and the dead, and by his manifestation and his kingdom, 2 preach the word, be at it urgently in favorable season, in troublesome season, reprove, reprimand, exhort, with all long-suffering and [art of] teaching. 3 For there will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, whereas they will be turned aside to false stories. 5 You, though, keep your senses in all things, suffer evil, do [the] work of an evangelizer, fully accomplish your ministry.

          (Ezekiel 12:1-2) 12 And the word of Yahweh continued to occur to me, saying: 2 “Son of man, in the midst of a rebellious house is where you are dwelling, that have eyes to see but they actually do not see, that have ears to hear but they actually do not hear, for they are a rebellious house. . .

          So the use of “air”, as in the case of the eye and ear, is a figurative use. It represents a frame of mind as necessary as air to our life. As Yeshua said, every saying of Yahweh is necessary for life. Satan was the “god of the air”, mis-leading to death.

          So as Yeshua is one with God’s mind he wishes us to be one with God also. From here, with the help of adoptive spirit, you eventually meet Yeshua in the “air”. You learn to hear as a taught one, to knock at the doors of the “door keeper”. Inspiration is behind the words; our brothers did the best they could and well enough using the words they had to convey the inspiration behind the words so that you can “hear”. On the horizon for you may be to pray for the last gift. the “gift of understanding,” an incredible gift that even the angels acknowledge as such. The spirit of understanding I suppose could be a step of maturity, but at least in this system it’s a good reason to gather together, as two or more.

          Abraham was promised that he and his offspring (let those who have ears hear) would inherit the earth. They inherited when Yeshua presented himself faithful. Yeshua as the first born of Abraham received kingship over the earth. No, it wasn’t going to be an empty place devoid of people. We are going to be there inhabiting the earth, we who now constitute his kingdom influence.

          Hang on to your shorts ex-Witness, the 144,000 of us from the twelve tribes (now the footstep followers of Yeshua) are to receive special awareness from Christ that will allow them to serve who, us. We can imagine that they will be especially aware of the undeserved nature of their position, and of course knowing they are only there to serve they will not lord it over us having an “air of arrogance”. In Yeshua’s “air” will be the obvious “new Jerusalem” that we all will “see”. A new organization of 144,000 minds to serve as kings and priests over us, the kingdom of earth.

          Ok, yep, we’re saying we’re not going to heaven.

          But remember you are still a person who has reached immortality in your relationship with your Father. Not a bad place to finish working on the mysteries of the universe and the dimensions unseen. Also, God did not create the millions of planets in the universe for nothing. With 144,000 kings and priests, the garden could certainly spread when the time was right.
          Ok, ok, we’ll stop here.

          • jacqueline says:

            Ted, thank you. We have begun discussions on our Fellowship’s plans for this year’s Memorial service. What will your Fellowship do this year? We will be on Zoom as in the years past.

    • ted says:

      (Hebrews 6:1-3) 6 For this reason, now that we have left the primary doctrine about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying a foundation again, namely, repentance from dead works, and faith toward God, 2 the teaching on baptisms and the laying on of the hands, the resurrection of the dead and everlasting judgment. 3 And this we will do, if God indeed permits (“let your kingdom come”).

      This talks about an event that has already happened, a foundation gained. If you truly deny the adoptive spirit you’ve received and the basic truths it has revealed, where could you ever find another “Christ” to save you, there isn’t one.
      Our Faith is assured by accurate understanding, not blind as an unbeliever. To turn away from the gift of spirit from our father means we are no longer reconciled with him, this the result of Jesus presenting the ransom price. No longer being reconciled, we also no longer can find a Path to approach to be forgiven and remain adjudged. The spirit was given out of love by our Father, to deny this gift “grieves the spirit” in this system. we’re talking about a point of no return, not a “stumble” or “false step”, but a frame of mind that has embraced, no God, or another God.

      We will hold your thoughts as we consider futher.

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