What says the Bible: on Difficult Subjects?


Revelation 20:

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are] and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Hint: When did the book of life open? Today or after the thousand years? 


Some of us have been told that if we leave an organization or do not believe certain doctrines,  or sin by leaving  after having "the truth"it will result in our going into second death.

This is an interesting talk on that subject for you to decide from scripture. Bob Carnegie a brother from the Bible students movement gives his perspective.  He's a good man just trying to give us some things to think about. Enjoy and Thank you




66 Responses to What says the Bible: on Difficult Subjects?

  1. jacqueline says:

    TedR I agree with every thought you have expressed! A BS elder told me all numbers in Revelation are literal but not so, the 24 elders represent the Saints. So Jesus gave Revelation in signs and symbols. To limit who rules to just a small number was adopted to fit certain classes of men around 1800’s til now.
    I see the contrast of Israel with every nation, tribe and tongue not small number contrasted with big number. Always two ways or more to look freshly at scripture. We have been captives of a Concept. That Concept being the world ending in 1914, 1925, 1975, now 2038 by Bible Students.

  2. jacqueline says:

    I sent it to him Ted.

  3. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    Lee Anthony
    That would be great! Sister Jacqueline has my email address and phone number. I am free both days and Columbus is only an hour and a half for me. Let me know what works for you. If you email me it will be more private.
    Take care!

  4. Lee Anthony says:

    Hey Ted.
    My family and I will be in Ohio on the 29th and 30th of this month for some business that my wife has to attend to. We will be staying around Columbus, not sure what hotel just yet but if you can get away just to meet up and talk a bit that would be good. Will see what happens with our schedule between now and then.

  5. jacqueline says:

    TedR also while I am talking about things I can’t see from my former associations with the Witnesses and the Bible students which is really Russell’s teachings.
    Jesus is not an Angel, He is a God (John 1:1). He said as he ascended that all power was given into his hands.
    In Revelation 1: we see Jehovah told him and He told an angel to go tell John. He sends angels for he is a God he is divine but not Jehovah his father nor equal to Him/
    Michael is the ARC ANGEL. He is a warrior that fights! He helped the angel who was fighting with the “Prince of Persia” (Satan’s prince) in the book of Daniel. While Daniel started to pray the angel went forth but was delayed for 21 days.
    Jesus has all power over death and Hades and Michael goes at his command to siege the dragon and binds him for 1,000 years.
    All Jews know of the defender of the Jews Michael the Arc Angel.
    Jesus is not their Angel He is the Messiah they are looking for, their Ruler. Only Russell followers (all the different break a ways existing today) are confused about what the Jews are not.
    There is no scripture that I can find that says Jesus is Michael in his prehuman existence nor afterward.
    Stephen said he saw Jesus sitting at the right hand of God for He took is a God and not an Angel/
    Angels don’t have immortality, JESUS DOES!
    This thing Russell and his followers have that diminishes Jesus puzzles me??? He was indeed a man but was more than the ransom needed to redeem us. And if he was doing a leverate as with Boaz and Ruth then that could explain why this overkill of redemption came to die for mankind. A Ransom has to be the sum asked but it can be much more than asked. He was much more because he raised the dead and cured the sick, Adam never did that. So he was a man and then some.
    I am going outdoors to do some yard work but I just had to get that out of my system as the spirit revealed.
    BTW, thanks for posting because I check the stats on the website and we had:

    50 cities and 12 countries that check the website almost every day. They normally look for new content. So My new intern is going to revamp the site and post new article also. One of her assignments is she should attend and run the board on Saturday night. So look for some improvements.
    Also, I should have grabbed askjacqueline.com while I had the name share for 260.00 now that designation sells for over 2500.00 dollars. If we were on that our numbers would soar. Us having this ask Jacqueline and another you tuber has made that an expensive name on .com. I should have bought it earlier, boo-hoo.

  6. jacqueline says:

    TedR, I agree that there was such a “Privileged” me attitude among followers of Russell in most of the groups, even Johnson. It does not endear you to such haughtiness. We forget why Jesus came and the focus goes on them as special people. I still saw the dumbing down of Jesus and His ransoming ALL of Adam’s descendants. He is the go’el, the next of kin in the leverate arrangement so that Adam offspring (seed) will live. It is not about the Church, the way I see it. I see it being about Jehovah’s provision for salvation. Which includes 1,000 years of Christ sitting on the throne of David and as Revelation 5:10 says to rule with him on earth, the 24 elders who are the saints.

    This is the simple way I see it without making it too complicated

  7. jacqueline says:

    TedR, I thought that maybe I should call attention to verse 10 of Revelation 5:1-10. Please note where they shall reign at the end of verse 10. ON THE EARTH not over it from heaven. This is another instance also where the numbers in Revelation are not literal as I was informed by the Bible students. They say all numbers are in Revelation are exact, not true.
    6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. 8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying,

    “Worthy are you to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,
    for you were slain, and by your blood, you ransomed people for God
    from every tribe and language and people and nation,
    10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
    and they shall reign on the earth.”

  8. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    I agree. I notice that many ex-JW’s and Bible Students cling to the “anointed class” interpretation. The Bible to me clearly states that there is “One hope, on Lord and one baptism”. Nowhere have I seen two separate classes of Christians. I am also coming to the conclusion that the 144000 could be a symbolic number, but I have not yet set this in stone, I am still contemplating the possibility and arguments. While Christ will select a Bride composed of those faithful to death, that determination is made by Christ himself and it is not up to us to claim a special relationship with him while we yet live. All of us who have accepted Christ and strive to follow his footsteps are anointed with Gods Spirit and have that one hope!

  9. jacqueline says:

    TedR, I knew Pearl before she left, tried to get her to just walk away and, not engage the elders. She was a very strong Christian. But not strong enough in her spirit to realize the evil personal assault to your spirit by men you have known for so long.
    She bounced back after the disfellowshipping with Holy Spirit help. It was so difficult for her to have her name read from the platform.
    Her post:
    Those are good points to consider, I, however, do not see scripture as anointed individuals to rule. I never understood “Anointing” in the witnesses, as all anointing in the Bible with oil etc was open and not shrouded in mystery.
    I also believe Jesus will come again and fulfill the scripture to sit on the “Throne of David”. Just as he fulfilled every little scripture while dying he has to fulfill this one on earth. David does not have a throne in heaven.
    Priest and Kings for a thousand years are not needed in Heaven. Rulership is covered already in heaven. In fact we Pray for the Will of God to be done on earth as it IS in heaven.
    I also agree with Paul that he had not attained his call to be wherever Christ would be but he pressed on for the upward call as ALL Christian do. Toward his death only did he declare “I have fought the fine fight”. Like Jesus on the Crux. “Be ye faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life” so says our Lord. “We are all brothers now, so says the Bible. The death of Christ was to redeem ALL mankind, not about giving anointed positions of power over man. The whole premise of this anointed power is out of kilter with witnesses and ex, I think.
    Perhaps some Jehovah witnesses and ex witnesses have been told they are picked special from all Christians to be of 144,000. But where it is mentioned in Revelation it doesn’t say that. He mentions 3 aspects of the choosing of this number then shows other national groups with no number.
    Many of the scriptures are the same as quoted in the comment so I won’t repost them but something to look at, the basic premise is based on special anointed ones of the Jehovah Witnesses.

  10. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    Pearl Doxsey Posted this on Facebook. Any comments? An interesting and supported take on Armageddon. May be worth researching.

    Pearl Doxsey
    22 hrs ·
    Watchtower doctrine teaches that the “thousand years” of Jesus is literal, and that it takes place after Armageddon. That is not what the Bible indicates. Please look for yourself…
    Rev.20: “7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them FOR BATTLE. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the EARTH and surrounded the camp of God’s saints” (Some translations read “God’s people”, who are also the anointed -see 1Pet.2:9-10)
    Do you see from this, that the anointed will be surrounded while on earth? (Just as they are during the great tribulation -see Luke21:20).
    Does not the WT teach that after Armageddon and after the thousand years, that all the anointed are in heaven?

    The WT teaches that Jesus symbolic “thousand year” kingdom, started in 1914… but the Bible shows that Jesus kingdom started when he was on earth (see Luke 22:69; Ps.110:1-2; 1Cor.15:25).

    The WT teaches that the “thousand year” kingdom of Jesus will be one of peace. But the Bible indicates that it is a period during which, Jesus wars with and subdues his enemies, through the members of Zion. That warfare is not physical, but spiritual. (Ps.110:2; 2Cor.10:3-5; Rev.19:11,14; 17:14; Eph.2:6; 6:12).

    The WT teaches that the Battle that occurs after Satan’s release, is not Armageddon. The Bible indicates that the attack on the holy ones by Satan, the false prophet, and it’s Beast organization, IS Armageddon. It is the situation where all must decide where they stand… either with the truths of scripture, or with the demonic lies of the false prophet.
    Rev.20:7-8,10; 16:13-16; 17:14; 16:14; 1Tim.4:1; Matt.24:24-25; Rev.13:7,10; Col.2:8

  11. jacqueline says:

    Gen 3:24 “So He drove out the man and stationed cherubim on the east side of the Garden of Eden, along with a whirling sword of flame to guard the way to the tree of life.”

    2Kings 19:35 “And that very night the angel of the LORD went out and struck down 185,000 men in the camp of the Assyrians. When the people got up the next morning, there were all the dead bodies!” “The Way” is mentioned several times in the book of Acts (Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22) in connection with early followers of Christ. It was to take prisoner men and women who “belonged to the Way” (Acts 9:2; 22:4) that Saul of Tarsus went to Damascus. After Saul was converted, he became a missionary and went by the name of Paul. In Ephesus, Paul met some in the synagogue who “became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way” (Acts 19:9). Paul left the synagogue and continued to preach the gospel where it would be heard rather than remain with those who denigrated the Way.

    John 14:6 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    Cherubim are Powerful Beings. Why not just put an angel at the WAY to the tree. One angel killed 185,000 in one night. This is best understood when we consider that Satan was the chief of Cherubim and Adam was not the problem with the regard to the Tree it was another Cherubim, satan. THE WAY to life is through Jesus so a strong angel stood to prevent Satan from showing mankind where the tree was and he would be the way.
    A regular angel was no match for the cherubim satan you fight like with like, power with power. You don’t take a knife to a gun fight.
    Just my understanding of why such a powerful Cherubim was put there.

  12. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    A great video by a Messianic Rabbi with a wonderful explanation of the meaning of the Gentile times and further evidence that we are in the end of the Gentile Times

  13. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    Intersting information on Gentile Times found at AvoidJw website:


  14. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    I missed the first Scripture in my preceding post Luke 21:24

  15. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
    This is the only place in Scriptures where the phrase times of the Gentiles occurs. this prophecy occurs after giving his prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. Jesus alluded to the destruction of Jerusalem when he gave the real life illustration of the fig tree.
    Mathew 21:18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered. Why did he wither the fig tree? In the Bible the fig tree is representative of the nation of Israel. That nation had ceased to bear fruit, just as that literal fig tree had ceased to bear fruit. Jesus often used illustrations as teaching methods. So we see that the fig tree, the nation of Israel was withered and fruitless.
    Not long afterward notice what he says:
    Mathew 24:32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
    So when will the Gentile times end? We see the beginnings happening today, the fig tree is sprouting leaves! The Israelites are returning to their homeland against all odds! But they have not yet said \”Blessed is he who comes in Gods name\”. They have not yet recognized Christ but remain hard hearted. So in my view the Gentile times cannot end until that nation is restored as prophesied in Isaiah, Ezekiel and Hosea.
    The nation of Israel is still threatened by the nations, but we see that they have indeed become an independent State, capable of defending itself as proved in the six day war!
    Rather than relying on dates since Christ told us that no one knows the day of the hour, in my view we should be watching that fig tree. Prophecy is being fulfilled before our eyes. The Gentile times are ending, but not yet ended. Soon will come the attack against Israel. The nations will be drawn into that great tribulation. Those who support Israel and those who oppose Israel. God, through his King Christ Jesus will rescue Israel Israel from complete destruction and they will come to know that Jesus is truly the Messiah. Christ will set up his Kingdom under the ruler ship of spiritual Israel, those who rule as Kings and Priests along side of that King.
    This is at least my view of things based on my current understanding of Scripture and prophecy. Others may view it differently but in short I have to agree with you Sister Jacqueline though my reasoning may be different. 1914 dating has been proven to be misunderstood. but notice: 1874 Bible Students proclaimed the invisible return of Christ. This is inaccurate based on Scripture, but in 1878, the first Israelite settlement, the first leaf appeared. 1914 was supposed to mark the end of this system and later changed to the end of Gentile times. again a misunderstood date but interestingly it was 1918 that the Balcour declaration occurred, a few more leaves on the olive tree. 1945 the establishment of the Nation of Israel, more leaves. Recently the recognition of Jerusalem as Israel capital by Israels chief supporter and the start of the rebuilding of the temple. More leaves. But the tree has yet to be fully mature and is yet to bear fruit. Only when the Nation of Israel finally recognizes Christ can we say that the Gentile times have ended.

  16. jacqueline says:

    Okay, has anyone thought about the “End of the Gentile Times”? My thought is that this is still going on over Israel and the whole earth. Not ended as we were taught.
    Could it be Armageddon that will end it? The two legs of Iron on the statue mentioned in Daniel 2: are made of Iron, or the remnants of the strong Roman government has not been conquered but broken up.
    First of all, let us look at the Biblical meaning of iron and clay. What does iron denote in the Bible? Well, if you look at Psalm 2:9 and Revelation 2:27, you will see that iron is a symbol of the ruling power. So in terms of the world, iron would denote a civil ruling world power. And what about the clay? If you read Isaiah 64:8 and Jeremiah 18:1-6, you will see that clay in the Bible denotes the people of God, with the Lord Himself being the Potter.

    So what is God telling us through the feet of Nebuchadnezzar’s image? He is telling us that in the last days there would be a mingling of civil power with the religion. But we are not just talking about any church. God gives us even more detail if we look closely. Take a look at the type of clay that is in the feet. It is called “miry clay” in the verses above. Meaning the clay is dirty, muddy clay. Could it mean Religions including Israel are a prominent part of society but the ruling nations and them don’t mix?
    And the Stone will bring an end to them all when Christ set up rulership, his Kingdom?
    Where in the Bible does it say the rulership of Christ is invisible during the thousand years and not returned on earth as his first coming?
    These are just some things I have been thinking about
    Any thoughts?

  17. jacqueline says:

    Travelers, duly noted. I haven’t read your entire post but on the first part. KISS and the simplicity of the doctrine.
    The donkey saw, understood not to proceed and spoke. So the Power of God, his Holy Spirit can help even a dumb animal understand simply if you try to go thru that angel you will die. Now how do you get around this? Tell your rider what you see. Simple and effective.
    Jehovah wants everybody to come to a full knowledge of truth and during Christ visible realm we know ALL will. This indicates that individuals can with Help from God and speaking,digging, listening and reading understand God’s word. That to me is the beauty of the Bible. He can hide and reveal as the situations in our individual lives change. I believe Christ redemption allows us as individuals to understand what we need plus commune with others on their understanding and together we have a nutritious spiritual meal. Some of us go deeper, Christians raising family keep it on their level etc.
    The point is all of us have special revelations from God as like every parent we deal with each child separately. He can deal with billion children at a time, so Great and Poerful He is.
    So that us why this site is here so we can all share our revelations from God through His Spirit and written word.

  18. traveler says:

    Thanks Jacqueline, KISS, yes we’ve heard this many times. But doesn’t it seem strange that even if you break the Bible down to a one page summary, somebody will say it doesn’t have to be that complicated. The concept of KISS suggests you address your audience on a level that they can grasp, keeping the steps of logic within the strength they have to follow the concepts you’re presenting. Now Franz knew that not many with a strong mind are called, or for that matter strong anything. We are among them. These are the ones God is making himself strong with, I won’t bother quoting the scripture. Franz considered himself a minister to the masses in the door to door work, where of course he would meet many potential beginners. As such he needed to present “milk”. However it should be quite clear that he assumed that he would also be called on to reason with those who had long been eating meat. These should easily grasp steps further “up” the path. This is the very reason we have the two volumes of the “Insight on the Scriptures”. Yes the Bible makes it very clear that many of our brothers will only eat vegetables, at least until they receive the increased capacity of the remainder of their inheritance. But does this mean that every expression must be simply “vegetables”? As Paul liked to say, “never may that happen.” Yes we know he wasn’t referring to this subject.

    We assume that there are many reading the post on your site Jacqueline that have decades of Bible study. You’ve mentioned the depth of training of several contributors. If we don’t have the hang of KISS for the audience that they think we should address, they certainly should have the experience to explain the basic foundation of the Bible, as we’ve presented it, to the general population whose head we’ve gone “over”.

    We hate to say it but either KISS or “why you” have been the constant reply to our presentations. This has been the case when we’ve presented in person, or when we’ve posted. It is always a strange thing to see in the eyes, either physically or the mind’s eye, that really they do get it. But they still ask “why you?” How silly it must have sounded to hear Jesus questioned that way. What does the person presenting have to do with your mind when it “sees” logic. Yes we know we are not Jesus and could be wrong about some of the positions we’ve presented. However, we doubt that we could be wrong about all of it. If some of what we are saying is right it is certainly enough to change the reality of anyone who is willing to, reason just a little, (RJAL).

    As far as we can tell most of you left off the avenue of pursuit you once had after many years without satisfactory growth, or as we say distance covered. We also assume since you are still here you have always been honest hearted, wanting to come to know. You’ve known the direction to go for almost as many years, so now you can pursue a relationship of REASON with God yourself, as we suspect you always thought was the case. It now can be done without the blessings of the priest , elder, or guy that lives down the street. We compliment you on your progress. Saying this to you may somehow seem wrong. We compliment you because it is no small step “up” the path, to have your mind set free.

    You, Jacqueline, keep saying “we are free to think now”; more power to you(spirit). All who face towards reason find it is painful at first. It threatens their position some how, or they realize that if they take a “stand”, it will isolate them from family and friends. Of course, the Bible says it will. We’ll admit, having a few thousand or million to associate with is a great draw to overcome. Certainly the “nation” of Israel and those who thought they were Jews did not. Only a few true Jews did so. The true Jew did not ask, “why you?” when presented with a new line of logic. I mean our brother was doing powerful physical things to prove that he was God’s son, and even then the vast majority of people would not reason. Why would these miracles be necessary then? It was to move those living in a nation, who were lost, to again take “up” the path of reason. They had all around them physical proof of God’s past support. You, on other hand do not. What you do have is so many divisions of religious pursuit, that I’m sure it must have to be calculated almost daily to have an accurate count. You must see why those who find reason in the time of the end are given the privilege of walking into the new system without seeing death. That is when you look at the task before you.

    We’ve given you one post, an historic fact, that should be able to free your minds from almost every religious division, the history of the trinity. The witnesses you’ve already seen through.

    Only a fool would not know in advance that all religious pursuits have a certain amount of powerful truth on which they are “built”, doctrine right. The Buddhists , the Muslims, even the worshipers of Satan do or how could they have performed magic. But once you’ve seen that the direction relies on a “leap of faith”, leap without logic, why spend the little life you have trying to continue “down” that path. The point in KISS format is then, why after all the years of Bible study would you still be arguing about basics?

    We’re not saying it’s easy to take a stand, given some of the material that the Bible really does present. If you need scholars of Bible study to back ” up” some of our concepts, (oh how we love the connection with frame of mind the Bible constantly reaffirms), it will not take too much effort to find ones to show you that those of Jesus’ time did not believe that they would leave their God-given home to go to heaven, no matter how many times the translators put it into their new versions of the Bible. In fact, we have some scholars on file.

    We’d love to have talked to Franz as he sat reflecting on the huge amount of work he and his writing team did while tracing out the lines of thought they pursued in the Bible, at least in “light” of the fact that he had been set free from the world of religion. We wish he would have had the time. It’s obvious that he was severely wounded by the actions of the organization, or his effort at writing an exposé showing the weakness in the trains of thought used to promote the door to door work would most certainly have been more towards helping us to move many steps “up” the path of reason. On the other hand, we still have time, brothers and sisters. Really we would rather put it this way, fellow minds, standing beside us, learning from God have time. This is the way the original writings put it and rightly so, “standing beside each other learning from God”. Even Jesus stands beside us when learning from God. Also, even as Adam and Eve did as partners before the fall (no longer standing erect), each standing before God as their head, learning. God being all things to everyone.

    Since we’ve surely “up” set someone, here’s just one more chance to do so, a thought.
    We know that in this system while existing in “slaves form”, women are to be considered a weaker vessel in consideration of their body. We also know that mentally, spiritually, they will do the bulk of the work of directing those whose lives are going to be saved. Yep, you know the prophecies.

    Why would it be fit that women be in a weaker vessel now? Why would it be fit that they carry the bulk of the work of saving lives? Why would it be fit that they are under man’s headship, now?

    If you needed a partner in the garden, would you wish for a weaker one? Doubtful isn’t it. Why did Satan approach Eve first? You can work it out. Yes we know that wasn’t called for, speculation. But if you are really free of sexism, prejudice or ego, look at it in true humility. What advantage would your gift be to you only? How would it raise you above your fellow pursuer, partner? How is it you would not welcome a stronger partner, in gifts, standing beside you before God? For the measure of each one of us added, we are stronger. My partner and I have often reflected on the realization we both have had, that neither of us is half of what we are together. Consider that our connection now is only based on a token of what is to come when love between minds is forever seen clearly. We’re sure Adam found the same thing .Yes Eve peered into areas of thought she should not have. She entertained the idea that God might not be the one to decide right and wrong. She considered that there was a possibility of the unknown, even within God’s mind without maintaining right perspective, given the self-evident truth around her. She should rather have looked elsewhere with the power of mind that she possessed. She should have looked at the nature of the existence she had and the fact that it lead to life. She should have looked elsewhere because much like Satan the Beautiful, she the powerful just fell short. She was deceived. Now Adam was not deceived, but valued his relationship with his partner so highly, he valued it higher than his relationship with God. How strong and deep does that sound to you?

    Adam knew that Eve would die. He knew that taking the fruit he also would die. The depth of his reason was not deep enough to know that God offered on-going existence through right thinking, and that the “mind” of God gave the very gifts in the partner joined to him that he now valued. If Adam truly “understood” he would not have let his frame of mind be changed to hold the values he now held. He would have maintained his stand under God. Hopefully given the same test you will remain.

    Please put away your preconceived notions based on a group within which “no flesh could be saved if the time had not been cut short”, the groups you’ve just left or are in the process of leaving.

    Please, peer into the realty we are in. You’ll find God, gods, the Great adventure, and hopefully yourself, an immortal.

    See we have spared you from some things.

    Sincerely, truly with love and affection, the travelers

    P.S. that’s travelers, not Traveler and wife, we pursue side by side. Your sentiment is noted and appreciated though by my partner and wife.

    Thanks for your comments Traveler and Wife.

  19. jacqueline says:

    Traveler, it is refreshing to hear someone agree you can come to some conclusions. I was beginning to spin from so much discord and in fighting over scripture.
    On Thursday the Spirit helps us to see what Jehovah and Jesus are saying.
    Ted mentioned KISS, keep it simple stupid. Raymond Franz talked about this issue and Warren mentioned how not going beyond the scriptures but listening to God makes for understanding the simplicity of the scriptures. God is not cruel to have us need charts to understand his Divine outline to right this whole situation of sin and death. Hallelujah! We are finally free to think without already made doctrine.
    Thanks for your comments Traveler and Wife.

  20. traveler says:

    1. God was everything to everyone.

    2. Lost approved frame of mind, question of God\’s sovereignty asked. Man becomes legally dead to God.

    3. Jesus is transferred, fulfills the law, crosses back from legally dead to alive, reborn/new creation. Mankind is reconciled to God through these actions, meaning mankind also now has an approach to cross over from death to life. From this point those who cross over are alive to God, even when in the condition of physical death. Jesus becomes king over those who are dead legally and alive legally. Jesus also has the keys to the grave. This is because none can be permanently destroyed until the question of God\’s sovereignty is answered.

    4. All who cross from death to life legally receive the token of adoption, a quantity of holy spirit with its increased mental capacity. This helps us \”see Jesus\”, or in other words understand the truth he reveals.

    5. Armageddon, or I should say just before Jesus returns, seen only by his true followers at which time all those who have crossed over from death to life, both in the grave and living are brought together by the \”out resurrection\”. These are then given the remainder of their inheritance resulting in a full compliment of holy spirit. The resulting increase in mental capacity does away with sin through weakness or lack of understanding. We see clearly now.

    6. Those who did not receive an \”out-resurrection, received a resurrection to judgment. Resurrection means to stand before God, receiving the reward due. They remained under law already judged, dead now both legally and physically.

    7. Satan and his angels are thrown into the abyss.

    8. Jesus shares his inheritance as son of God and calls 144,000 of his brothers out of us the sons of Israel, the true Jews, who followed him to be received in the \”air\” to replace the now deposed \”god of the air\” Satan , as one part inheritors, to be part of the rule of the earth, the new Jerusalem.

    9. The thousand year reign of Jesus begins.

    10. The last test is when the earth has returned to health both physically and spiritually, and is filled with a great number of what we call perfect mankind. Will this large number stand when Satan is released to go misleading the entire inhabited earth? Evidently not. Even though many have seen the old system and the damage that going a-\”way\” from God did will still fall. At the end of this short period of test by Satan, the question of God\’s sovereignty will at last be answered. Satan and his followers and mankind opposed to God will have found no \”way\” to live, and their options will have come to a close. Satan and his followers, those now dead of mankind and in the grave will not have called on Jesus The option of an out resurrection past the need for a grave will no longer be necessary, and will be done away with. Those in this state, dead, will also be destroyed. The concept of the grave will no longer be. Death will no longer be a necessary concept. Everyone now alive will have put on immortality in their relationship with Yahweh. They will all have gained an approved frame of mind that is one with the Father as his son also is. Now in its original form, the kingdom of the reality under Jesus will be handed back to Yahweh\’s Kingdom and Yahweh will again be all things to everyone.

    Framework of overview, based on frame of mind, simple.

    Brothers and Sisters, we have mentioned before that if you don\’t start with a working overview, you will go on learning and learning without ever arriving at an accurate conclusion about anything. This is not difficult. No one of any persuasion that we are aware of, has put forward any overview other than the one we just laid out. God is everything to everyone, relationship of this kind lost with God, end result of all players and information adds up to return of God being everything to everyone again. All of this is based on nothing else, just frame of mind.

  21. jacqueline says:

    Rena, I saw your comment to Christopher on fojw site and we discussed this subject in detail on 12/6/2019 here: https://askjacqueline.life/conference-call-using-just-the-bible-research/ got to the 12/6 posting.
    Now Dave posts his summations in the form of a comment.

    I also wanted to add something I thought about, that the 1st type of death has to be gone or done with before there can be the 2nd death.
    The first death is still reigning supreme right now. There is no need for a second one until this one is done.
    Jesus has the keys to death and hades but this second death seems to be when Jehovah has everything turned back over to him.
    I tried to reason with those that were saying if you lose your crown you go into second death when nobody has a crown until they prove faithful until death and then God chooses. To me, strange teachings cloud the simply stated words of God.

  22. traveler says:

    Dear Jacqueline, you wrote,

    \”He dealt with people one on one in the Bible by Holy Spirit. The Nation of Israel is the one he deals with as a special people as a group. They are his.\”

    You hit it on the head, \”He dealt with people one on one in the Bible by Holy Spirit\”.

    A \”nation\” is just that – an organization or an administration that governs a \”people\”. Individually those who were dealt with by God made up his \”holy people\”, and as such his kingdom of influence, they belonged to God. It is a common mistake to make, as Paul did, that loyalty to an organization or administration is the same as loyalty to God.

    I hope that you are first of all not trying to reason though things using a paraphrased Bible like King James, where in six months the authors tried to understand the original writings, ones we still have, and then put it into their own words. How long have you been doing the same? How fit would you say you are to explain all of it?

    Read Romans carefully. There is no doubt that the \”nation\” of Israel was permanently rejected along with those calling themselves Jews,
    who were in fact not.

    (Romans 9:1-13) 1 I am telling the truth in Christ; I am not lying, since my conscience bears witness with me in holy spirit, 2 that I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were separated as the cursed one from the Christ in behalf of my brothers, my relatives according to the flesh, 4 who, as such, are Israelites, to whom belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises;

    In the original language it says \”of whom the placing the adoption of sons is\” or we might say \”among\” whom the adoption as sons is. Remember that Paul had learned that he was himself was not a Jew, a real Jew in the eyes of God, until he followed Jesus. This is why Paul wrote, \”who really is a Jew\”

    5 to whom the forefathers belong and from whom the Christ [sprang] according to the flesh: God, who is over all, [be] blessed forever. Amen.

    6 However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel”.

    Keep track of the fact that Israel is not the same as the \”nation\” of Israel.

    7Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed.

    The seed by promise, those being guided and under the kingdom influence of Yahweh, compose the \”holy people\”. This also means that \”the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the law and the sacred service and the promises\” did not belong to those Israelites (members of the state of Israel) claiming fleshly connection.

    (Matthew 21:42-44) . . .Jesus said to them: “Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders (nation) rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU ( the old builders) and be given to a nation producing its fruits. 44 Also, the person falling upon this stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.”

    So the kingdom was taken from one \”nation\” and given to another \”nation\”.

    (Luke 20:9-18) . . .Then he started to tell the people this illustration: “A man planted a vineyard and let it out to cultivators, and he traveled abroad for considerable time. 10 But in due season he sent out a slave to the cultivators, that they might give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. The cultivators, however, sent him away empty, after beating him up. 11 But he repeated and sent them a different slave. That one also they beat up and dishonored and sent away empty. 12 Yet again he sent a third; this one also they wounded and threw out. 13 At this the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my son the beloved. Likely they will respect this one.’ 14 When the cultivators caught sight of him they went reasoning with one another, saying, ‘This is the heir; let us kill him, that the inheritance may become ours.’ 15 With that they threw him outside the vineyard and killed him. What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 He will come and destroy these cultivators and will give the vineyard to others.” On hearing [this] they said: “Never may that happen!” 17 But he looked upon them and said: “What, then, does this that is written mean, ‘The stone which the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone’? 18 Everyone falling upon that stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.”

    Romans 9:7 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed.

    Those of the kingdom, the true Jews that followed Jesus.

    The other issue you raised, who goes to heaven, we\’ll go over again soon. In the meantime take another look at:

    (1 Thessalonians 4:15-18) . . .For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord. 18 Consequently keep comforting one another with these words.

    This is a description of the \”out-resurrection\”. Bible translators who lack understanding that the nature of resurrection which has nothing to do with the giving of life, change \”out-resurrection\” from the original tongue to the \”first resurrection\”. No matter how you look at it this resurrection happens to earth, not heaven. It also does not mention going to heaven afterward. This event does however show how and when the 144,000 are separated to meet Jesus, hidden, to meet in the \”air\” to form the new administration of earth, New Jerusalem.

  23. jacqueline says:

    Didn’t notice the slashes. I asked and thought Greg could write an article for the fojw site to help some of the men coming. Here also thought he could write. I was told any articles would have to be approved by a committee of men and that didn’t set well with me. I couldn’t even tell Greg because I knew it would hurt and that he had jumped in the fire. I said no, we can’t be enslaved again. But God needed me to understand and see it is Russell’s teaching and those like him that is wrong. To get away from the date setters in defiance of Christ who said as Christopher stated, no one knows the day or hour! To see so many different thoughts on here that shows God has not changed. He dealt with people one on one in the Bible by Holy Spirit. The Nation of Israel is the one he deals with as a special people as a group. They are his.
    Tell me what do you think about Rev.7:4-8? I see not a contrast with one number being big and 144,000 being small. I see him saying of all the tribes of Israel as contrasted to “from every nation.” Then I see him saying secondly, it is going to be 12,000 from each tribe and to further emphasize Israel, these are the twelve tribes I will get them from. Three things. He did not say the twelve tribes we see in the Bible ( list isn’t the same every where) but all of those tribes mentioned existed and only he knows what tribe those Jews came from.
    I can be wrong but we can be spiritual Jews but not be from the tribes of Israel. I think this is a special Bride group and others, spiritual Jews etc can go to heaven because we see attendees at the marriage and a temple class. I think only Jews make up that Special Bride. Thoughts please and flaws in my reasoning.

  24. traveler says:

    We apologize for the slash marks. They seem to be added after we hit post.

  25. traveler says:

    As we walked along the bay today, I and my fellow pursuer, partner and wife, talked about your reference to us using our brain cells to look at the Bible in a different way. It seems strange that so many think of themselves as \”foot step followers\” of Jesus . Yet if you ask them the \”steps\” to reason and how they apply to the truth Jesus revealed, they just don\’t have an answer. When you step out of the framework of man and try to reason for yourself using the Bible, it may seem that everything is new, when in reality you are just finally doing what everyone else in the Bible had to do before they could stand erect. You no longer bow to mankind, letting them decide right and wrong. You no longer bow to Jesus as the great teacher, there is only one that is \”great\”, Yahweh. You will have a chance going this way to bend a knee in appreciation for the service Jesus your brother and king, is and has rendered to you that secured his new name as the \”amen\”, that\’s true. Realize that the point of the Bible\’s writing and of Jesus is just to help you return to and approved frame of mind. One in frame of mind as Jesus is one with Yahweh , as Father , great teacher, and King. This is so that all is as it was before we lost our approved \”frame\” of mind.

    Are you a foot step follower of Jesus?

    (Romans 12:1). . . Consequently I entreat YOU by the compassions of God, brothers, to present YOUR bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason.

    It has been our experience that when asked, most people do not know the steps to deliberately carry on a rational train of consideration. These steps of reason are necessary to understand conceptual information that is foreign, or in other cases so similar to already considered information, where a wrong or unconstructive conclusion may have been reached, (theory of the trinity) that it is obviously important that reconsideration be rational and carried out in very careful steps of logic.

    Becoming a \”footstep follower\” is the process of setting your paths straight (held considerations), and standing erect to serve Yahweh with your powers of reason. We feel the need to emphasize this concept of footstep follower because the whole process of returning to a healthful \”way\” of thinking, or Yahweh’s \”way\” of thinking, is related to making our minds over.

    When the term disciple is used, it refers to a person trained in this practice of reasoning, according to Christ’s WAY of thinking, who has taken up the practice of this process of reasoning. A disciple is a person who draws closer to Yahweh’s frame of mind through reason, sees or comes to know and then follows the direction or action indicated by the information revealed by Jesus. He has been orally taught, has received the spirit of understanding and is now a \”taught one\” of Yahweh through this gift.

    These are just pulled thoughts from past considerations. We figure that if we keep bringing \”up\”, up, the process of making our minds over will eventually start to remain within the considerations of the minds we are pursuing with, our brothers and sisters. Making you minds over is not a matter guessing of passive action. We know the nature of the transfer of God\’s son\’s life force to earth to be born as a man, so we know our nature as mankind. We know that the logic of retained identity would logically be retained in the grave. We then see the nature of the individual, having life in the condition of death, without consciousness. We then also see how with the addition of a new body and its brain, Yahweh can restore thoughts previously had to our life force with its identity retained now in a new body and able to receive the implanting of these thoughts, remembered by Yahweh. Through the Bible\’s explanation of the process of transfer, we understand the process of an \”out- resurrection\” compared to a resurrection to judgment. We have the \”hope\” of the resurrection because we under-stand, not because somebody says we are going to get it. Jesus was the physical proof of the promises.

    When we look at the Bible I and my partner don\’t see original thinking on our part, because so many have already followed Jesus, and some of them were able to write and be heard in the format of what we call the Bible. But there is no mistaking the fact that the \”path\”, the \”way\” was pursued long before the Bible, and will continue to be by us long after this writing we call the Bible. Who knows, maybe you will be a writer in the next \”Bible\”. Each step of reason taken in the Bible is simple. From each step taken, direction is perceived; in other words, you get a sense of where to go to look for new direction. We\’ve all heard the phrase \”make sense of it\”. some day soon we\’ll post the consideration \”Steps to Reason\”. We just wanted to let you know that we owe you one for a nice walk during which we had, as it was said in the last Samurai, \”a good conversation\”. Yes we watch movies too.

  26. jacqueline says:

    Traveler now your last paragraphs (No Beginning) are an example of how people have stuff to say also other than what a man or group of a few isolated men say. I got to go over those paragraphs again. You are using your brains cells to think and reason. Thanks
    I want to let you know you answered 2 questions without knowing there was a discussion going on.
    Trinity, you gave the origin and the “Gifts”, which I won’t comment on here because that is Dave’s format on Thursday night. https://askjacqueline.life/conference-call-using-just-the-bible-research/.
    This is the new network that we are using on Thursday: https://askjacqueline.life/freeconferencecall/

  27. traveler says:

    Thanks Jacqueline for the quick answer. We too know the effects of stress from trying to deal with an organization. My wife and I talked about the effect that the friends site must surly be having on you as we watched you reason and use diplomacy to cover the rest. I get it now, your site that is. We have not been to a meeting/church for three years. Each time we try to share what we’ve found in the Bible people immediately become upset. It seems people have a tendency to take the knowledge they have as personal power/ personal image trying to raise themselves above the rest in some way. I believe it is mainly a desire to feel unique . Even when you acknowledge some truth they have as right, it doesn’t go far in cultivating a relationship with them when we point out logically that the facts they have don’t add up to the conclusions they’ve drawn. It seems that the statement “the truth will set you free” can never be fully realized until it happens. You find yourself outside not only all organizations and denominations, but outside almost all relationships. You see how important the connection of brothers through time is as you realize you know the experience they had and that you would recognize their minds immediately when they start to explain themselves.

    (Romans 14:1-4) . . .Welcome the [man] having weaknesses in [his] faith, but not to make decisions on inward questionings. 2 One [man] has faith to eat everything, but the [man] who is weak eats vegetables. 3 Let the one eating not look down on the one not eating, and let the one not eating not judge the one eating, for God has welcomed that one. 4 Who are you to judge the house servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Yahweh can make him stand.

    The problem is that all denominations teach loyalty to the organization as loyalty to God, not realizing that even if they could serve as a provision from God they would be doing it temporarily . In this time of the end the effect is that they cause everyone associating with them to become blind and deaf at some point. They do this by forbidding them to progress up the path of reason past doctrine. They say it would be a stand against God. Really they just want everyone to worship them, which is what it means to allow someone else to decide right and wrong for you. I seldom forget conceptual information when it relates to frame of mind. The Bible is a book written to document frame of mind, God’s, angels’, and mankind’s. Every reference the Bible makes to the history of God, angels, or man relates to frame of mind. If you don’t get that mankind lost his approved frame of mind and must regain it to find life again you miss our connection to God. Becoming an expert on any facet of the Bible, be it the tongues, the people, or the land will never give you insight into what the Bible is really about, what the Bible is really trying to give you.

    What is it all about? How many people have any idea what it, the realities are all about. Within the “theory of the trinity” God is all knowing, created everything to serve his will, and cannot be wrong, even though he has to send himself to earth to straighten out what appears to be wrong. Of course since everything serves his will that cannot be, wrong. The best it could be is God entertaining himself. Within the “theory of the trinity” there can be no “question” because God knows all and cannot be wrong. So if all the suffering from sickness, war, and accident are part of this entertainment, who that is rational would serve him. Would this mass murderer make anyone want to be a “friend of God”. I know that we wrote and posted an overview on the Friends site of what actually is happening in our realty from the beginning of the path to the end of the thousand years, but maybe you missed seeing it. If you lay a foundation it must begin with the concept that the building is to be built “up” on; the blue prints if you like. Don’t you find it intriguing that during the time of Jesus and the apostles the truth was simply explained to the honest hearted and then they explained it to the next person. The apostles saw that the wolves would come in and mislead the majority, making sure that there was no clear path known so that others would become dependent on those viewed as having a fuller grasp of the truth. The “nation” of Israel did the same thing. One of there main objections to Jesus and his followers was that they were not educated. When the end was to come the truth was prophesied to become abundant again. Knowing this, Satan’s response is the information age where there is so much information that surely no one can be right, given the next new research. Satan has already set it up so that “faith” basically means holding onto emotion when challenged with reason. Faith no longer needs the proof of logic only loyalty to this organization or that person’s ideas.

    Because you evidently have taken up an honest hearted child like approach to God and the truth, you have been freed from not only the organization, but from the theory of the trinity. This means you have also been freed from all religious pursuits that are called Christian on earth. Be freed from the rest. NO, not forsaking those eating vegetables but progressing “up” the path, so that you, such a talented person, can help them to be free too. Take up the pursuit of Truth, stand erect.

    (Luke 21:25-28) . . .“Also, there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and [its] agitation, 26 while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But as these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift YOUR heads up, because YOUR deliverance is getting near.”

    (Ecclesiastes 3:15) What has happened to be, it had already been, and what is to come to be has already proved to be; and the [true] God himself keeps seeking that which is pursued

    Realize that God, Yahweh, must and is pursuing truth. Become his friend by knowing him and his “way”. Build Faith through “under-standing” that God has freed your will by showing with humility that He has no beginning; in other words, He does not know how He came to be. Yahweh is still God, and it is only with the help of a being so much higher than us in intellect and power that we can put on immortality so as to pursue with him, as a friend.

    Below is a part of a past consideration written by us.


    By reason and logic we can see that Yahweh could have no explanation for his beginning because this would require that something or someone would have to exist or have existence before him, to show or explain to him what this beginning was. Basic logic tells us that you cannot be aware before you are aware. Yahweh confirmed this when he stated the conditions He found himself in at Isaiah 43:10:

    (Isaiah 43:10) “YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Yahweh, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.

    This statement of conditions in Isaiah 43:10 showed the rational mind the possibility of something else outside of God; not the fact, but the possibility. This statement also allowed us to separated our will from his overall reality or will, thus giving us choice outside of his will, or what we call free will. The fruit of the tree in the middle of the Garden of Eden only represented the statement that we give Yahweh the right to decide right and wrong; it could not have given freedom from his will. The computer is given choices and the ability to make them, but it is not free from our will. There are other conditions that God exists and is bound within, and these will be mentioned later as they relate to each consideration.

    The Bible’s explanation of our beginning (Ge 1:1) together with visible creative works shows proof of a creator. The importance of the realization that God has no beginning is that it shows us the nature of our relationship to him. When you add the statement at (Ec 3:15) that we must pursue that which he also pursues, truth, you can see that there is a stand to be taken and if you “under-stand” it will be under your friend, Yahweh.

    We appreciate that you’ve given us space to post and we’ll try to do it in such a way that it takes as little of you time as possible.

  28. jacqueline says:

    Traveler, all answering on the friends site are people I interacted with and they have carried on. We have a lot of readers on this site like the fojw site but they never respond or say anything. They have that freedom. This site is different than the fojw site. It teaches doctrine and to comment on it I have to stay within the teachings of Russell whether I believe it or not, so I parted ways.
    Many had left before me because it really isn’t a friends of JW site as it is censored heavily. This site let’s others post their comments and thoughts for others to see a different view but we don’t point you to any religion but encourage you to do research yourself. We are in the process of posting some research done by others that once associated with Bible Students and witnesses. The Thursday night and Saturday call in is hosted on this site. We really don’t have an agenda but let all talk.
    I personally can’t respond to every point in a comment but leave it for others to ponder. Our little group received so much adversity when I left fojw site my health was affected adversely. Never had those types of attacks when leaving the witnesses so I am recovering but still active.
    The fojw site will engage you if you post. I know all posters personally and they have the time for a great discussion. We are not persuasive here. Just post and listen. I ask e-mailers and phone callers to me to post on the site so all can discuss and because I am recovering from a stress induced stroke according to my health team. Others on here are suffering challenges all of a sudden together. Very odd, but we overcome each challenge thrown at us and keep pushing. Take care.

  29. traveler says:

    I tell you the truth Jacqueline I am totally mystified by this site. I see that something is going on behind the scene. I haven\’t figured out how there is an interaction on the site between posts and those seeking answers, as on the friends of JW\’s we met on. I assumed people looking to find answers would be returning and interacting directly.

  30. jacqueline says:

    Traveler, I will call her and tell her to come read. She actually came on Thursday and presented this for us to discuss on Thursday Bible Study. We will discuss then.
    Right now we are on free conference calling for testimony meeting. I will tell her here if she pops on. Thank you for answering her. Now you got the hang of it. We answer any question that pops up or comment on thoughts.😅❤😁

  31. traveler says:

    Hi friend in Christ. We’ve posted our bit in considering holy spirit under “thoughts from a traveler”. We hope you at least find some of what you are asking for.

  32. Friend in Christ says:

    Hi Jacqueline or anyone with an answer:
    Do you have any information on the gifts of the Spirit?
    Like speaking in tongues. I know JW believe these gifts are not active anymore. Thank you

  33. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    I came across this on Facebook from a Messianic Jewish scholar. I found it intersting and to me it makes sense:
    What was the Mark of the Beast?
    By Dr. Eli Lizorkin-Eyzenberg – February 14, 201832352 399
    In the Book of Revelation, we read about the arrival of the Beast – the enemy of God’s people. During this period, Christ-followers will be excluded from participation in the local economy unless they agree to place upon their head and hand the mark of the Beast (Rev. 13:16-18). But what is the exact nature of the mark?

    To understand the true meaning of the mark of the beast, something must be kept in mind – The Book of Revelation is a Jewish, anti-Roman document. Once we realize that, we need to remember that the central Jewish Torah text that was recited twice daily stated, “‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one.” It had another, less famous, but an integral part: “Bind them (God’s commandments) as a sign on your hand and they will be on your forehead.” (Deut. 6:4-8) Jewish people, both today and in antiquity, fulfill this commandment by literally tying the words of the Living God found in Torah to their hand and head almost every day of the week. This Practice is called, “the laying on of a tefillin.”

    If the Book of Revelation is read with an awareness of the first-century Jewish context, it becomes clear that we should not imagine that one day the entire world will undergo a medical procedure that will insert a chip under the human skin (as some Bible teachers speculate). Instead, we should understand the mark of the beast to be an inward or outward expression that opposes the Law of God in the life of a human being. As the enemy of God and His people, the evil Beast would naturally want to replace the mark of God that goes on the hand and head of the worshiper with his own mark.

  34. Ted R. Bible Student says:

    You have my permission on anything i post. I hope to be on Thursday.

  35. jacqueline says:

    Marjo, I too realize now how uninformed I was on what it really meant to be about Christ Jesus. These “so-called worldly people” had more knowledge about Christ and his redeeming us than any governing body members, me or the watchtower.
    We were always studying a book or watchtower or referencing a watchtower for my entire 70 years of life. We had the governing body and before that the faithful servant or slave, everybody but Christ Jesus first. Wow, what a ride we have been on.
    I have nothing against books so that is why I am going to do the 66 and some other holy writings I know about before studying whole volumes written by men.
    Last night I went to sleep listening to Acts and realized as clear understanding was coming in my mind, that I needed to stop and check out these first few verses carefully. It is so much contained in the Bible that you don’t really need books, Holy Spirit helps you. An individual relationship with God is what we never had only an organization or book relationship.

  36. Dave says:

    Response to Bro. Ted:
    These are all interesting observations and questions.
    As you know from our Thursday night meeting, as students of the Bible we MUST take EXTREME CARE not to answer or form opinions about questions like these without Scriptural support.
    I totally understand your situation (better than anyone else you know), so I’d like to ask your permission to use your post as a topic of discussion for our Thursday night meeting on 11/29 (I’m assuming our group will vote to NOT have a meeting on 11/22)
    will give our group a chance to prepare, instead of just springing these questions on them.

    Also, every question humans can come up with MAY not have Scriptural answers.
    What should that mean to us, if we cannot find Scriptural answers to our question?

  37. Greg says:

    My dear brother and friend, Ted,

    Thank you so much for expressing yourself here. I can only imagine how many other wonderful gems you could share if you had greater ease of access and freeness of speech on Saturday nights. Thank you so much for sharing these beautiful expressions with us here!

    Warmly and sincerely,

  38. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    Regarding this topic of second death I have some thoughts. First, lets look at the Scriptures quoted above in Revelation. When do these take place? When do Death and Hades get destroyed? When is Satan, the False Prophet, and the Wild Beast get destroyed? When does God judge those whose name is written in the Book of Life? We know Satan is not completely destroyed until the end of the thousand years. Death and the grave is not destroyed until the end of the thousand years when God grants everlasting life to the faithful after the little season. It stands to reason that second death does not come into place until after the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous which does not occur until sometime after Christ takes up his throne and begins his judgment day. When we read in other parts in the Bible that talks about no forgiveness for those who sin against Holy Spirit, who determines that? Are we to judge? Can we presume to speak for God? Our JW cousins seem to do that but should we fall into that same trap? Unless a person completely rejects Christ after knowing him and turns to evil, why would anyone be in danger of the second death? Satan is misleading the entire earth, often becoming an Angel of Light! Scriptures provide a warning to us but it is only Jehovah and his Son that exercise the final judgment. Only they know whose name is written in the Book of Life. It is not up to us to speculate or render judgment. Jehovah is our merciful Father. If we are truly desiring to serve him he see’s that. He knows are hearts! Righteousness and salvation does not depend on doctrine, it depends our sincere desire to serve the Lord with our whole heart, soul and mind. Serving him in Truth,from our innermost hear, not hypocritically. When we read the example of Christ in the Gospels and the letters of Paul, everything points to two things, love Jehovah with all our hearts and our neighbor as ourselves. So let us stop arguing or speculating on the second death! That is up to our Lord! If we are serving God to the best of our ability and working out our own salvation, we have no worries. Stop judging that you may not be judged! Lets all just serve our God until the Kingdom when the TRUE knowledge of Jehovah will be revealed!

  39. Marjo says:

    I remember once in field service back then one person told me that you are not following Christ. I feel ashamed for telling him that yes we do. This person was so right all the time. It took me this long to wake up and see this.

    Now we have our faith in Christ so we don’t need JW stuff anymore. We need to hear Christ voice only.

    John 10:27
    My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.

    Also I want to say this to comfort everyone minds that, everyone who believes in Christ will be saved.

    Romans 10:4
    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes,

  40. jacqueline says:

    Marjo, also the governing body believes in the substitution that they are the Jews and the Nation of Israel has been totally abandoned by Jehovah. So Isa. 43:10-12 they claim to be His witnesses and therefore the Jews deal directly with Jehovah not Jesus. So that is why the skip Christ in their equation.
    Many religions believed this when the Jews were not going home as predicted in the Bible but now religions are dropping it because the Jews did become a nation in 1948 as foretold.
    The witnesses are holding on to this old doctrine adopted by Rutherford. I stay away from their site as I know it manipulates with choice words. I decided it wasn’t healthy for me to keep hearing these doctrines, now for 70 years. I am done. lol I am getting so much joy however from just the Bible. Holy Spirit is so powerful.
    I find this page interesting from Barbara Anderson’s site. I was mentioning on Wednesday study that none of the things are new that most of the failed predictions and doctrines were here long before the witness religion founders were born.

  41. Marjo says:

    Yes it is good to see different views, because we don’t know what else happened after that when apostles disappeared or got killed. There is no scripture here to tell us about that. After the time when John wrote Revelations. If there was Romans must have burn them all.

    I have to say when I read that letter, I felt uncomfortable about it. Uncomfortable because I know that Bible is all about Yeshua.

  42. jacqueline says:

    No, I didn’t see this on jw.org because I never go to their site Marjo thank you for sending this for everyone to see.
    Also on your comment above about the second death. See how you just reasoned it out. I try to do the same without adding to the text all the other assumptions I have been taught.
    Others, however, do see second death now according to the long-held teachings and that is okay. Maybe the view of second death being open before judgment day is true, what really matters is we can discuss it without someone saying what an organization or men teach on the subject and insisting we have to conform or risk some kind of df or shunning. We can disagree and know it is not a salvation issue that God and Jesus got this! But it is only human to think on these matters.

    PS: I had a Psychotherapy session last night (Saturday) from 7 pm until 9 pm, so I wasn’t able to get on either. I caught just the tail end of the testimony meeting. Later this week let’s think of getting together on the BBB while it is a decent hour in Finland.
    I will see what my schedule is for that.

  43. Marjo says:

    Did you see the latest letter from GB in JW site? It seems that they are totally forgetting Yeshua ( Jesus) and replacing Yahweh as the grand instructor. I can not believe this. How can these people be so blind?


  44. Marjo says:

    Dear sister Jacqueline

    When these people are saying like this they are very wrong. Then they don’t fully understand the Book of Revelation at all. I don’t either, but I’m getting there little by little with the help of Holy Spirit.

    They are saying that second death is now here. There are still events in the Revelation that hasn’t happen. Whore riding in the beast has not been destroyed yet or the beast. Satan hasn’t been chained yet, he is still out there hunting people.

    When 1000 years has begun then Satan is being chained. When 1000 years is over Satan will be lose for a while and after that and the door to second death will open. We don’t need to worry. It is not here yet.

    p.s I wanted to come online last night, but I was too tired because of the trip we made to another town. Take good care of yourselves.

    – Marjo

  45. jacqueline says:

    Marjo thanks so much for your comment. Second Death is surely in the Bible and it is the final judgment. The reason the discussion came up is because some were saying there is second death now for humans. Like at armageddon (JW) even if you never heard about Jesus. Like if you are consecrated but fail as a sinner to follow Jesus that you go into second death. That if you don’t accept teachings but forth by a man or group of men, it is sinning against the Holy Spirit and you go into second death.
    As you stated the Bible clearly says who goes into second death in the scriptures at the top of this article.
    I don’t worry about it on a personal level for I know my father and how he loves all of his children and will have done everything possible to save them. They will have to be incorrigible and unsavable. That is what I concentrate on. Satan hasn’t responded in all these years!
    1Tim 2:4: ” who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.” NIV

    PS: Marjo I won’t be able to come on tonight except through listen-only as I took on a therapy session that begins at 7:30- 9:30 pm my time but hopefully my Bluetooth will let me listen.

  46. Marjo says:

    Hello dear brothers and sisters!

    I really had to take a deep study on this second death topic before saying anything to it. I was reading Revelation 21:8. When you begin to follow Yeshua you can not have unholy habits. You can not be a slave of two masters. You are either a slave of habits that are listed there or the slave of God. You can not be both. You can not be anything of those that are listed in Revelation 21:8. If you want to be God’s servant you have to be clean. For example, you can not be a witch and be God’s servant same time. No, you must abandon for being a witch and after that you can serve God. If you don’t do that you might belong to the group who goes to second death. Second death means that there is no resurrection. After that death is eternal. There is only a resurrection in a first death. I don’t mean to offend anyone with this but that is what Bible say.

    But if someone judges you in religious group when you don’t obey their rules like: you are doomed in second death. They are wrong. They don’t know what is in your heart at the moment. God knows who you are. You have time to make your choice for being a God’s servant as long as you live. God is the only one who is making the last judgement not us humans.

    Wishing you all the best in Christ!
    – Marjo

  47. jacqueline says:

    Kent Shalom, I appreciate your sincere belief in this but I now have to accept the Bible support scriptures. These are long-held beliefs by some but the Bible should say directly something as serious as this don’t you think. For instance, this statement, let’s break it down with the scripture.
    “If he sins very seriously and knowingly willingly goes against God and his truth he risks second death.

    He has only two outcomes of life in heaven as one of the 144 000 or one of the great company or second death that’s how it is.

    There is only one Christian hope and that is the same hope Jesus had and that the apostles had.”
    For the audience sake where is this in the Bible or a link perhaps to an article that contains the scriptural support, because I know you are busy.

    My support, for instance, is the talk presented here with all the scriptures. Do you know of a talk where this doctrine is explained that you only have the two choices or second death for Christians? I don’t say consecrated Christians because it denotes that there is a superiority.
    I never accepted this simple statement but with no scriptural support.

    I invite the persons looking on to listen to the talk from Bob Carnegie and he gives scriptures and explains them to see if they make sense.

    Kent I do respect your sincere right to hold to this belief and perhaps many others do.
    Isn’t it nice we can talk openly here without a shutdown or shunning?
    I hope others will jump in also to tell us what they see. Hopefully, the statements will have some scriptures as we are training our minds to not say it is hot because we were told but because the Bible says it is hot. lol

    BTW, Kent you can approve your comment without it being held in moderation. I wish this program would let comments post immediately.

  48. jacqueline says:

    Oh okay, I remember the JW reasoning on how do you know if you have sinned against the Holy Spirit. If I have to have a fear like that it would take away from my warmth toward God. Replace hellfire with fear of second death. Feels good to be able to see what the Bible actually say. Thanks.

  49. Kent says:

    Dear sister Jacqueline

    My story of the man that stood outside the convention was to give an illustration of the fact that if someone has true love for God and a desire to serve him, he has in my mind and in my friends mind not sinned against the holy spirit severely, if he would have done that, he would not have any sort of desire to serve God.

    In Christ

  50. Kent says:

    Shalom sister Jacqueline

    First I want to say that there is a difference between Hitler and an enlightened True christian one of the called ones.

    Hitler was never given any enlightenment from God in the scriptures. He was not given a new birth to a heavenly hope with the gift of Jesus ransom sacrifice.

    I am fully aware of what a horrible person he was, but God is the judge not us.

    A christian given these things have only two outcomes either he make it as one of the 144 000 (rev 14) or he loses his crown and
    according to rev 7; 9-17 he joins the great company and have the hope of serving God day and night in the temple before the throne.

    He has not the chance of choosing between life on earth and life in heaven, because he has sacrificed his right to live on earth forever when he consecrated to serve God forever as potentially being one of the 144 000.

    If he sins very seriously and knowingly willingly goes against God and his truth he risks second death.

    He has only two outcomes life in heaven as one of the 144 000 or one of the great company or second death that’s how it is.

    There is only one christian hope and that is the same hope Jesus had and that the apostles had.

    The word christian means to be anointed and that means to be immersed with God’s spirit in to his body the church of the 144 000.

    All else have the hope of being blessed by Jesus and his bride.

    Isaiah 9 wonderfully describes Jesus rule like this:

    For to us a child is born, to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
    And he will be called Wonderful Counselor,
    Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Cristian love

  51. jacqueline says:

    Kent, perhaps we can ask the crowd to join in on this. It is a subject that is used by some religions to keep people in line, I feel. What we are trying to do is go by what the Bible clearly teaches and say, so that is why I ask for scriptures.

    (1) Where is the scriptural basis for this statement? “My thought was that there is a point when a truly anointed born-again Christian that has tasted the truth of Gods word can become so deviated from the truth and if that person keeps sinning against holy spirit and against God he risks to go into second death.” But what about Hitler? A Christian loses his way but Mussolini, all the serial killers get resurrection?
    Just letting my brain ask if this makes sense.

    (2)Why would a man want to worship with the witnesses if they DF him and said second death?
    “The man said “I have been doomed to second death with no chance to come back, (disfellowshipped for apostasy)”.

    My father was df in 1958 for taking a blood transfusion. They came to him in 1959 telling him he could come back before he died of his cancer. He refused and said he wanted to die with God knowing he didn’t follow man.
    They told 9 children and my mother that he went into second death and my 75-year-old brother still believe this because they said he died in a df state from their organization. So I ask Apostasy against whom? Isn’t that for God? I never believed God hated my daddy.

    Man makes up a lot more control features just like hellfire. That is why I am now trying to go by what the Bible clearly teaches and not beyond.
    I personally do not believe in Second death now before the thousand years rather after it is over.
    As we discussed in detail last night this scripture has a time period- after the first resurrection.

    Rev 20:6 “Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years”. Doesn’t seem they were to worry about 2nd death before their resurrection because maybe it was future, held in God’s hand after Christ finishes his work? During judgment day, the little season. I am all now are under Adamic death according to what I see the Bible saying. Just flexing my brain here.

    Rev 20:9 “They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
    “Tormented”-given the severest, harshest sentence forever never to return again, Notice they are in the “little season” where they were perfect and defied JEHOVAH GOD.
    God really tells you who goes into the second death. Religious men make up stuff to try and put a scare so you will follow their doctrine.

    I like discussing it openly here on the site because it is for all of us to benefit, I have settled my heart on the issue, but a discussion is good for us on such a serious subject since we have been told we could be liable for not accepting doctrines or thoughts of prominent men.
    Dave moderated a discussion on this subject last night and here is his summary. Perhaps he or the “crowd has something to say also”

    Take care Kent and Thank you so much for correcting the name on BBB, we noticed.

  52. Kent says:

    Hi Jacqueline
    What seems to be the issue here is the fear of second death. I did not mean the the brethren go into second death just because the persecute their brethren. My thought was that there is a point when a truly anointed born again christian that have tasted the truth of Gods word can become so deviated from the truth and if that person keeps sinning against holy spirit and against God he risks to go into second death.

    We can not judge these things only god can we can only see the outer signs like hate towards God and his word and his people, serious willing sins and no tendency to be regretful.

    Again we shall never threaten anyone with second death that is very serious and we shall let God judge.

    Jesus said to Satan may God rebuke you satan.

    Another thing wy shall we let other scare us with second death.

    I remember my old JW friend that was baptized 1937 and lived until he was 99 he once told me a story about a JW brother standing outside a convention with a pamphlet or something against JW.

    He walked over to this man and asked him why he did not come in and join the convention?

    The man said “I have been doomed to second death with no chance to come back, (disfellowshipped for apostasy)”.

    My friend said ok I hear what you say.

    Do you want to come in and worship with us?

    The man said of course I want to.

    My friend said you see I understand you have not sinned against holy spirit beyond hope, because you love God and wants to worship him with the brethren,

    A person that has sinned seriously against holy spirit beyond repentance does not love God anymore neither does he want to worship him with the brethren. He does not regret anything. Despite this we can not judge him only God can.

    Jacqueline lets talk more about this tomorrow.

    Christian love

  53. Marjo says:

    Thank you my sister! I just realized myself too how being in JW religion they have made shadows front of our eyes not to see the truth in the Bible with their books and magazines. Now I’ve been reading letters over and over again the light is more clear than it was 10 years ago. Now I have my project to find Bible verses that support the fact that Yeshua (Jesus) is not a God himself but he is a son of God. I learned another truth about Jesus name in the Bible history also. His name wasnt always written as Jesus. In the oldest Bible it was Iezus came from Zeus. Chocking isn’t it? That’s why I would rather use Yeshua.

  54. jacqueline says:

    Hi Marjo, you know I have been doing a lot of contemplation on whether I am going to get the courage to listen carefully to him. My son is so upset that he now realizes he wasn’t really taught what was really in the Bible or told other important things about the Bible. It was a topical study geared to teach unique doctrine and selected scriptures over and over again. I had to agree and apologize that I too had been fooled. He clearly told us about false Christs or saviors that would say he has come and deceived many people and I am one of them.

    Matt. 24 4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
    The religion I have associated myself with all my life til now said Christ is out there but invisible. This scripture tells us pointedly not to follow men who would be around during those beginnings saying Christ has returned but he is out there where you can’t see him, it is an invisible presence. Read this carefully and see what you think. And they have foretold the end of the world many times. This in direct defiance of Jesus who said no man knows the day or the hour. They are smarter than him and can figure it out I guess.

    Matt 24: 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.

    I am going to get away completely from these types of religions. I learn so much from listening and sharing what other men are sharing from scripture, it rounds out my knowledge, instead of being lead to just waiting to make my calling sure, studying over and over again the words of one man or a few. I have prayed over this and feel his approval that I am finally learning and listening to him.
    Thursday night, Marjo, we feel Holy Spirit helping us to understand the scriptures and bring up more to our minds as we go on. We learn more from all those 66 books than all the books we have been plowing thru all my life.
    Books, 66 of them have been with us all the time and they have been approved and stamped by God himself and Jesus. How could I have been so deceived for so long and went right back into it after escaping?
    For now, I am going to go where the Spirit is with the Thursday night, Bible only studies, and trust him.
    The internet allows us to talk to other Christians about scripture and I think it is what Daniel was talking about, the reason he told Daniel not to worry. There is more knowledge found and less persecution from Papacy if you think on your own. But brothers try to stop you from thinking even now, but I am branching out, walking away. I enjoy talking to you and others about scriptures using the 66 books. Getting more than one view. I have learned a lot from the 70 years of BOOK studies but now I can branch out and learn from the 66 books.
    You were so brave to get away and get in touch directly with God. I can see the blessedness from your speech. You have given me courage when you said you got into the Bible over this last year.

  55. Marjo says:

    I don’t believe this term anointed either. There is a group called sealed. I don’t even know where JW got this word anointed from. I don’t like it at all how they twist words.

  56. jacqueline says:

    Marjo, I can see what you are saying about the sealing being the Holy Spirit. I have never believed in special people being special “Anointed”.
    I think none of us have made it so as to say others go into second death or the great crowd now because of what Paul said, that he hadn’t made it.
    Philippians 3:10-20 New International Version (NIV)
    10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

    12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

    Following Paul’s Example
    15 All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

    Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

  57. Marjo says:

    Hello Kent and Jackie!

    When I have been reading letters I noticed that some verses are linked to the book of Revelation even tho they are not marked as cross references. In Ephesians 4:30 And do not make God’s Holy Spirit sad; for the Spirit is God’s mark of ownership on you, a guarantee that the Day will come when God will set you free.

    Paul is talking about Gods seal. If I’ve understood this right, Gods seal is Holy Spirit. Revelation 7:3 is talking about this sealing: “Don’t harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the servants of our God on their foreheads.”
    Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of the sealed: 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the Israelites.

    My thought of this is that this 144 000 could be this great group which John saw. Could fist church and apostles belong to this group?

    Paul is talking that he belongs to tribe of Benjamin in Philippinians 3:5
    circumcised the eighth day; of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; regarding the law, a Pharisee;

    Revelation 7:8
    12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 sealed from the tribe of Benjamin.

  58. jacqueline says:

    Kent, I am asking these questions to stimulate if these teachings are actually in the Bible or are just doctrines of men. If it is a certain church doctrine it is okay for them to believe this but if it isn’t actually taught by Jehovah God or Jesus then others don’t have to accept it but can still fellowship in love. We all have stuff we believe but others don’t see or we can think out loud.
    All of this helps us to heal and get our brains to moving again.

    Point #2, “Mercy Class”. Where is this mentioned in the Bible? I have heard of it but it is a made up expression and comes from types and anti-types which I see in the Bible but not everything is a type some of it is made up to support the superiority of the “consecrated class”, which really are all Christians who at death only are declared special. There is no class as I see it but He shows mercy on whomever he pleases.

    Romans 9:15-16 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs but on God who has mercy.

    How do you know your discussion is on a special anointed when your death determines if you made it as an elect one of 144,000.

    Revelation 2:10 New International Version (NIV)
    10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

    Point #3
    Where is the scriptural support for those who persecute their brothers going into second death? I ask because on one of our Wednesday night studies we were told we might be subject to second death if we didn’t accept the pyramid doctrine or the seventh messenger doctrine as being a man of the Laodicea church. (Which by the way is not a good church to be responsible for or a messenger of.)

  59. jacqueline says:

    Hello Kent, now a meaty subject to discuss, my thoughts: I have never seen a scripture in the Bible that indicates or suggest that the great crowd is inferior to the 144,000 who is a Bride. They are another group like angels are another group not necessarily inferior to the Bride.
    These are just two of the instances where the great crowd is mentioned but there is no mention of inferiority, that I see. What is your scriptural support for this thinking? Thanks my brother, now we get to put our brains to works on what the Bible ACTUALLY SAYS. Nowhere can I find that this heavenly class of Christians from all walks and races are in some way inferior? How is this thought developed? Peace

    Revelation 7:9 New International Version (NIV)The Great Multitude in White Robes
    9 After this, I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
    10 And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

    11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever. Amen!”
    Next, again the great crowd: Revelation 19:6

    6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:

    “Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. 7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
    and his bride has made herself ready.8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

    (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

    9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

    10 At this, I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

  60. Kent says:

    Hi Jacqueline

    In Revelation, the great company is serving God day and night in front of the throne and in the temple. These make up, from what I have understood a heavenly class of not immortal angels and they come from the ones that where once called to the be one of the 144 000 and later lost their crowns.

    They are also called a mercy class because God is merciful and they are not rebellious they just did not show enough appreciation and commitment to the calling.

    The only ones of the called ones that go into second death are those that go against God and persecute their former brothers. They do this with full knowledge of what they are doing but we can not judge the only one that judges is God.

    Jesus said to the Pharisees “How can you escape to be judged to Gehenna”.

    Christian love from Kent

  61. jacqueline says:

    Okay, the floor is open to discussing 607 BCE or 587 BCE.

  62. jacqueline says:

    Shannon, Since your comment is now asking for just some INFO to help you on this Sunday I would like to suggest going on You Tube, and picking out some of the Ministers like Chuck Missler to get some spiritual food for today.

  63. Shannon says:

    Hi. Jacqueline can you send me info for Sunday

  64. jacqueline says:

    Nubby Tope, how do you eat an elephant? One small bite at a time and chew this elephant really long.
    Since I have seen this throwing people into second death bounced around so much I wanted like others to see what does God Himself say on this because men have an agenda of control when they sling this around.
    (1)As you stated:

    Revelation 19:20 New International Version (NIV)
    20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur”.

    (2) Who was engaged with them and threw them there?
    Revelation 19:19 New International Version (NIV) 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.”
    That Rider I believe was Jesus, I may be wrong but He had power to bring down these SYSTEMS at that time forever to the fiery lake that burns with sulfur.

    (3) Was the actual fighters against him, humans, thrown into the lake of fire? Not according to what is actually said here:
    21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.” So we know they were actually dead because their FLESH was ingested.
    Here it says the sword of his mouth killed them but didn’t consign them to the fiery lake. So I wonder how religions assign those that aren’t fighting him but trying to worship although they make mistakes?
    To conclude this one part before going into what I see Jehovah doing, can I get some feedback. Maybe I missed the point. Thank you

  65. Nubby Tope says:

    In Revelation 20 (?) second death is described as lake of fire and only mentions Satan and demons, and those who fail final test after 1000 year Reign as the only ones there. I think beasts of Rev are there too. No other group of humans are mentioned here and so I assume its safe to say that most humans will not be going there. That’s what I’ve always believed and see no reason to change unless someone has a more logical explanation based on the Bible.

  66. jacqueline says:

    I have heard two thoughts on who goes into second death. One says those that have dedicated themselves don’t make the Bride class of 144,000 will go into second death.
    Then some say “the great company” or “great crowd” are those that didn’t make the 144,000. So are the great crowd the ones that did not make it into the Bride class or do those ones go into second death?
    I see a contradiction in teaching here. What do you think about this?
    (The above thoughts are what I have heard from different ones of the Bible Student movement)

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