What says the Bible: on Difficult Subjects?

SECOND DEATH - Talk Below

Revelation 20:

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are] and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Hint: When did the book of life open? Today or after the thousand years? 

____________________________________________________

Some of us have been told that if we leave an organization or do not believe certain doctrines,  or sin by leaving  after having "the truth"it will result in our going into second death.

This is an interesting talk on that subject for you to decide from scripture. Bob Carnegie a brother from the Bible students movement gives his perspective.  He's a good man just trying to give us some things to think about. Enjoy and Thank you

http://www.labiblestudents.org/2019/Carnegie_humility_and_prophesy_part_9_the_four_seiges_of_jerusalem.mp3

______________________

 

134 Responses to What says the Bible: on Difficult Subjects?

  1. travelers says:

    Traveler true the scriptures are revealed when it is time. I have noticed a few skilled ministers say they can’t believe they never saw a scripture say in Luke but now they see it and understand it.
    I find the Bible faSCINATING AND REALIZE IT IS AUTHORED BY SOMEONE BEYOND OUR REALM OF EXISTENCE! A God who sometimes shows off! lol, like with Sarah and Abraham having a baby at their age.
    Travelers tell me what you think about this scripture, it just puzzles me. When did this happen?

    Jeremiah 4:22-26
    22 “My people are fools;
    they do not know me.
    They are senseless children;
    they have no understanding.
    They are skilled in doing evil;
    they know not how to do good.”
    23 I looked at the earth,
    and it was formless and empty;
    and at the heavens,
    and their light was gone.
    24 I looked at the mountains,
    and they were quaking;
    all the hills were swaying.
    25 I looked, and there were no people;
    every bird in the sky had flown away.
    26 I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;
    all its towns lay in ruins
    before the Lord, before his fierce anger.

    Well beyond our understanding, but not far off. Showing off ? If I’m right that was a lighthearted statement, I won’t hold you to.
    As you know we pay close attention to frame of mind. On the other hand the history of man’s dealings with God have been so dependably weak, bad, that we pay little attention to them in the Bible and elsewhere. It’s always seemed like an inside joke that God’s people, and the “Nation of Israel” described as “stiff necked” due to their pride and unreasonableness, never seemed to get that the reason God chose them was they were the weakest people on earth. So that no man would have reason to boast. This is what Jeremiah is describing, sorry if you were looking for a date.

    As for 23-26 God’s people felt like once they had God’s approval it then became their right to hold themselves up above all others of mankind. At times they even thought they were above God and asked for kings, and law, and such. So as we say, these scriptures are giving you the “lay of the land”. Symbolism works well for minds that have trouble with abstract images. Jesus and other men of God, i.e. Moses, are described as the “Mountains of Yahweh” . Mankind says that making a lot out of a little is “making a “mountain out of a mole hill”. Yahweh made mountains out of great shared insight even though it is just a small part of his light/in-sight. “Let those in the congregation who have ears, hear and who have eyes, see”, love that statement . Of course just sharing our thoughts in appreciation of yours, not meant to teach.

    (Isaiah 2:1-4) . . .The thing that Isaiah the son of A′moz visioned concerning Judah and Jerusalem: 2 And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Yahweh will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. 3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Yahweh (Jesus), to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Yahweh out of Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.

    (Hebrews 5:11-14) . . .Concerning him we have much to say and hard to be explained, since YOU have become dull in YOUR hearing. 12 For, indeed, although YOU ought to be teachers in view of the time, YOU again need someone to teach YOU from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God; and YOU have become such as need milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone that partakes of milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their perceptive powers trained to distinguish both right and wrong. . .

    (1 Corinthians 1:26-31) 26 For YOU behold his calling of YOU, brothers, that not many wise in a fleshly way were called, not many powerful, not many of noble birth; 27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put the strong things to shame; 28 and God chose the ignoble things of the world and the things looked down upon, the things that are not, that he might bring to nothing the things that are, 29 in order that no flesh might boast in the sight of God. 30 But it is due to him that YOU are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom; 31 that it may be just as it is written: “He that boasts, let him boast in Yahweh.. . .

  2. jacqueline says:

    Traveler true the scriptures are revealed when it is time. I have noticed a few skilled ministers say they can’t believe they never saw a scripture say in Luke but now they see it and understand it.
    I find the Bible faSCINATING AND REALIZE IT IS AUTHORED BY SOMEONE BEYOND OUR REALM OF EXISTENCE! A God who sometimes shows off! lol, like with Sarah and Abraham having a baby at their age.

    Travelers tell me what you think about this scripture, it just puzzles me. When did this happen?

    Jeremiah 4:22-26
    22 “My people are fools;
    they do not know me.
    They are senseless children;
    they have no understanding.
    They are skilled in doing evil;
    they know not how to do good.”

    23 I looked at the earth,
    and it was formless and empty;
    and at the heavens,
    and their light was gone.
    24 I looked at the mountains,
    and they were quaking;
    all the hills were swaying.
    25 I looked, and there were no people;
    every bird in the sky had flown away.
    26 I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;
    all its towns lay in ruins
    before the Lord, before his fierce anger.

  3. travelers says:

    Nice work Jacqueline, “let those in the congregation who have ears hear”

    “I totally agree that if we pray for the helper.”

    “As many as are led by the spirit, THESE are sons of God”

    Yes we have the Bible, but without the “spirit of understanding” the considerations in it cannot be heard. Let those in the congregation “who have ears”
    The Bible is made up of truth written in such a way that it was to be understood down through time as each understanding was relevant. Those who do not have “ears”, or in other words are not led by the spirit, have doctrine. Paul said and I’m paraphrasing, he was glad that the Christ was being published for whatever reason. He knew that even those later locked into these doctrines would still draw attention to the path, to reason, to the Way, making it available for those of honest heart that would “hear” what the spirit was offering them, even among these congregations of doctrine. The “truth” will set you free.

  4. jacqueline says:

    Great observation, we can just open the Bible and check, they didn’t have his words written down just memory.
    You mention you had to shut down to forget and start over.
    Well I know you are aware people that have been Spiritually abused are susceptable to falling in with at least one more group before we crawl our from under religions like the witnesses and we did.
    I think of it as a journey and my curiosity of how this religion got started with its “Faithful slave”, meant I had to travel that path. Now I am convinced that the foundation was faulty. Now I am done and moved on enough to answer questions about the start of this movement to others who might have questions.
    The experience got me in touch with friends now to study with without coercion.
    My family arrived a couple hours ago and will have tons of visitors to the next week. So I might not see comments tomorrow. My company have a party to do tomorrow. Take Care and tell your family hello.

  5. Lee Anthony says:

    As many as are led by the spirit, THESE are sons of God. The Jw or Bs haveno answer for the this in their club or only certain annointed people… Though the rest of the quoted scriptures you shared Jacqueline, context seems to show those who were writers of the bible or the early church brothers and sisters. It does apply to us however It was a little different in that they had just been with Jesus and was learning SO MUCH from him and the promised helper was to bring ALL things to their memory as well as that which they learned when he opened the scriptures to them. This is what WE have now. The bible👍

  6. jacqueline says:

    I totally agree that if we pray for the helper. He didn’t say He will teach you Jacqueline all things or Lee but it is addressed to those accepting Christ and peering into the Bible either alone or with one or two more (can be bigger, Jesus had 12, 70 and then thousands). I am not finding it hard as I go through the Bible Book by Book verse by verse but not topicaLLY OR (DOCTRINALLY). I see now why they liked to teach by topic, it indoctrinates! It will also remind us of things learned.
    It does not say that we need books of other men, although there is a place for books. videos, pamphlets, etc, but not as the main study aid. We did only 5 min of discussing the Bible at the kingdom hall but an hour of the watchtower and other books at book study. Studies in the scriptures are not only studied religiously over and over again but quoted from in most talks and everyday plain Bible discussions. That is a clear definition of Spiritual Abuse and control. Not one of these scriptures mentions we need to study the Watchtower religiously nor Studies in the Scriptures. I think we are going to be okay. I just understand others are struggling to deprogram themselves without losing it.

    John 14:26 New International Version (NIV)
    26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
    Romans 8:26-27 — Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

    John 14:16-17 — And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

    John 14:26 — But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

    John 16:13-15 — However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

    1 Corinthians 12:13 — For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

    Luke 4:18-19 — “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”

    1 Corinthians 2:9-16 — But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

    John 15:26 — “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.

    John 16:7-8 — Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    1 Corinthians 6:19 — Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

    Romans 8:14-16 — For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

    Matthew 10:18-20 — You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

    1 John 2:20, 27 — But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. __ But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

  7. Lee Anthony says:

    Jacqueline,
    Yes if the many could join and study the scriptures with no outside influence I think it would be of great benefit to any and all who would try. It is difficult. I had to stop reading everything including the bible to try and clear away the old teaching, (doctrine) Even the stuff I knew before I came into religion I let go if they taught the same and have or am still revisiting the ideas. God has spoken to us in these last days by his son and his apostles have given us truth led by the promised helper and spirit of truth and it is here for us in written form. Simple yet made to be difficult by those who love to lead others with the idea that God has revealed some truth to them that has not been seen in 2000 years. Why do we have so many denominations and sects? Oh yea Just said it.. 😛

  8. jacqueline says:

    Lee I read one statement you made about adding a new sect.
    That is what I say when persons say where is so and so?. I point to a person on the internet with their own forum, many just need a core group to help them get over Spiritual abuse. Then like horses and the Apostles they take off running realizing Christ died for all and they don’t have to be under the thumb of a bunch of billionaire men. Each should share individually when their hearts get healed. Then we help another and another so they can take off running!

  9. jacqueline says:

    Lee Anthony, we have missed out on a lot of little nougats in the Bible. Also, the readers have a responsibility to find the scripture if they don’t see it posted. It will enrich them as they read to see if they got the correct citation.
    !. Nougat: We are like Barrabas who was released although his crimes (sins) were real. Jesus died instead of him and Barrabas was free.
    2. A repentant confessed sinner and an unrepentant mocking sinner. Yet he died for both and prophecies to repentant ones. Just not adding nut looking intently at the scriptures itself says a lot.
    I am finding the bible is deeper than I thought.

  10. jacqueline says:

    Lee Anthony, drop Greg an email, maybe. We would love an update on his wife and how they are doing. I have had persons talking to me and I beg them to go to the site and say it, don’t call or write me. They have some great thoughts on all of this.
    I pray they will get courage to share for all to benefit.
    I don’t feel I should speak for anyone, may Holy Spirit move them to be bold.
    Lee God says what he means and means what he says.
    For instance, Babylon’s destruction was allegorized because it was never destroyed like Sodom. Muskets and bayonets, arrows and spears was warfare implements in centuries until the 20th century. So how could or would we absorb and follow the thoughts on Babylon from those ministers who did the best they could?

    TODAY, we saw fire from heaven come down on Babylon ( Bagdad) for no reason! The Missiles and Bombs took it out. Saddam had built a palace overlooking old Babylon and was starting to erect it from the rubble there.
    Bush took him out! Colin Power was hurt and resigned because there were no weapons of mass destruction! Condaleesa Rice was crushed that US soldiers died. But as Christians we froze! We witnessed prophecy in our day.
    Israel, 1948 in one day!became a nation! Prophecy!
    Lee Anthony, THE BIBLE ONLY, no books or watchtower and you can understand the Bible.
    Some of the mentions in Revelation are technology future which would not be understood until as Daniel was told the time of the end upon which they would happen.
    The Bible, not quotes from books, governing bodies or dead pastors will be my guide.
    Finally I know what it means to come to Christ! You have to empty yourself and not fight his spirit indwelling within us.
    People won’t believe we use just the Bible on Thursday and can feel the help from on high.

    Btw: 256 cities around the world have followed these conversations in the last 10 days.

  11. Lee Anthony says:

    We say what we believe is in the bible just like bible students and JW’s. At least mormons use their own book so its hard to talk scripture when scripture isnt the final athority. The apostles wrote what the spirit of understanding revealed and unless it is prophesy being interpreted then new truth is simply new understanding for one as the truth has always been. Many has messed it up is all, it was prophesied this would happen as well as that there would be many new “truths” outside of what was already given. This is not just for the joseph smiths of the world but also for the many christs and followers of him as well. I will not include all of the necessary quotations as we all know them, (reader if you do not I apologize this is not for your ears) Anybody out there like to chime in? I tire in many ways and lately I have little ability left to formulate a thought as much is bestting my family and self in satans world. Where is Greg? His input would be of great use at present. Pray for him everyone please.

  12. travelers says:

    This shouldn\\\’t have been an after thought on our part. You asked, \\\”how do we know these things?\\\” We have talked about the \\\”spirit of understanding\\\”. We have prayed for the \\\”last gift\\\” to be poured out on us for years now, regularly. It has been. Do you not believe it would give you what it says, \\\”increased mental capacity\\\”? Who cares who among the three fold cord is given an understanding. Yahweh has given it to everyone, if he\\\’s given it to one. Is there really power of awareness in the reality you exist in? We suspect that it was a flicker, a \\\”sliver in your mind\\\”, all the years you were bound by doctrine. You knew you could \\\”see\\\” further than they wanted you to. Now that you are free to \\\”peer into it\\\” look past the words and \\\”see\\\” . Listen for the \\\”ring of truth\\\”. Don\\\’t just read the Bible, walk around in it within your mind\\\’s \\\”eye\\\”, See. Be empowered by the power Yahweh has offered.

    Having just read your last post we understand the intent. We read it before we wrote the above, but the above still applies.

    Love, your brother and sister, learning next to you

  13. jacqueline says:

    Travelers you misunderstood me I was not looking for more explanation, I am very well versed in the Bible. I was looking for a way for you to post maybe a paragraph and then say more here. So your post are not so long. The person can link out if it is housed somewhere else.
    This will keep us from imposing a word limit as most websites will do.
    But more explanation, no.
    I am running the website and many are reading and benefiting. I don’t have the time or energy to consider deeply long comments. Plus I am really not looking to be taught at this time. I am relying on my studies in a small group and personal study with Jehovah, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
    What you might be interested in might not be my interest at all and I skip those comments.
    So I guess I am saying no need to address a long explanation to me just a yes I can or no I can’t link out to the place this is posted.
    I hope you understand that I am running the website, the reason I might want a yes or no answer.
    You say this info is printed somewhere else? Then link out after you state your subject, please. Let’s show some respect here. People can find you because I gave you a page. They click on it and you link them out after telling them a paragraph. Sorry but I must insist. We will reach our storage limit when you have it stored somewhere else. Can you do this?
    Thank you.

  14. travelers says:

    Just reread your comment Jacqueline.

    “Travelers do you know how to cite part of it then maybe link out to the full story

    The full story does exist, it is in the Bible. Each post is part of a larger comment on the subject, written by us to keep track of our progress as we have gone along. If I understand you, it seems you’re looking for a comment sharing some aspect of the subject being discussed, but that is just learning, with no conclusion. The Bible is a rational consideration expressed in an ever inter linked “way”. For example, “under law” is a fairly understood subject given that the Bible states it point blank. The goal then is to understand, or in this case share why Jesus was under law, and how this affects us. If there was a question on the subject to be answered, I hope to hear it. I suppose we could have said “yep he was under law, here’s the scripture that says so”. It seems to us this approach would not have moved us along up the path. The inter connections for a subject so straight forward are easy to follow and establish. We’re beginning to get that in general people tire and lose focus after a page or two, but we are talking about the Bible here and we expect that there should be some excitement to carry us along when there is new ground to cover. It’s obvious, we hope, that most of this we covered years ago, but we hope to learn/cover “beside you” new and exciting ground. Progress is fairly rapid when you finally get a working overview, so we hoped to save our brothers and sisters some time by giving them enough to see how they can progress more quickly themselves. Within the last couple of posts we have posted the information is very straight forward. Yet if it is reasoned through one step (foot step follower) at a time it will change the reality you are experiencing in a profound “way”. There is no doctrine here. Please, it’s only a few pages, peer into it, it will do more than just “tickle your ears.

    P.S. Lee Anthony, you seem upset, we are sorry. We left Doctrine long ago. We are glad it seems you are trying to do the same now brother. The “truth” is what we shared in the post. You seem to have not understood. We gave you one scripture that answered the question you had. Why would you get so upset because we gave more information than evidently you were ready to handle, others read these posts also. Again we wish you peace, brother, keep up the pursuit.

  15. Lee Anthony says:

    😛

  16. John 14:6 says:

    To teach or to be taught? Why are we all here? What is this TRUTH that you have no one else seems to have. Please, tell us from where it has come, is it of you or is there another who teaches? Is it anew sect that we must add to the many? If many come here and seek to learn these things then they will go forth and become as have so many before them…. Let us all join together and wait and watch and find out what is in store because every eye will see and all will be witness to that which is made new in the future that is soon to come. Wether it be a year or another thousand, SOON is not the same for us as it is for God. I know this that we will appear before the judgement to answer for every word and action. This appearing is something to consider since we all get to do it, if I know not the right truth will I get to see this place? So many billions are condemned because they know not the RIGHT TRUTH. What a shame, what a sham…. Loving? Just?

  17. travelers says:

    Lee Anthony

    \”Under law, but not a breaker of it\”

    Well we see you now understand that Jesus was under law, we agree. But this makes no difference as an under age child. Jesus was still condemned.

    We understand Jesus was different as a man. We understand he did not sin. We understand he fulfilled the law. I mean four pages, really, that\’s too long. The point here: was Jesus under law. Yes. The rest just simply explains why this had to be, and connects with how that all works related to the resurrection. We tried to distill the subject, so it didn\’t look so intimidating.

    Let\’s face it, if it\’s truth you are looking for and if it\’s out there to be found, it is not likely to be in a leaflet form of two pages. In the first place it took a book, the Bible, to get it down in steps that represent a distilled expression. Any further consideration that makes \”sense\” of this is going to be simple progressing to deep.

    In each paragraph we gave \”under law\” is as simple to understand as you are likely to find. I appreciate that even my partner said, \”you are being vague\” when we first started to pursue together. I was explaining some of the basic framework to her. My response was, \”no, I\’m being perfectly clear, you just don\’t know enough yet to understand most of what I\’m saying\”.

    I\’m sure you have a great background of information in the Bible, but if you are not going to take even the simplest shared truth as your own, how will we make progress.

    \”Under law\” is not a matter to test perceptive powers on, at least not as we presented it. It is explained in simple terms in the Bible, and as far as we know the answer we gave is one most generally accepted in its literal sense. Of course the scripture we started with says he was under law in a point blank way. ramifications of it we agree are not seen by most.
    We didn\’t go into such things of depth as the following:

    Corruption of Blood:

    Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary defines:

    Corruption of Blood: The effect of attainder upon a person which bars him from inheriting, retaining, or transmitting any estate, rank or title.

    Attainder:
    1) Extinction of the civil rights and capacities of a person upon sentence of death or outlawry usually after a conviction of treason.
    2) obs: Dishonor.

    (Genesis 3:3) . . .But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.. . . ,

    Instead of listening to Yahweh and following his way, Eve expressed faith in a new god, Satan, and listened to the things said by him; her works disowned \”dishonored\” her, in her Father\’s, Yahweh\’s eye. She……

    We wish you the peace you are able to find brother, look harder. We really do wish you peace.

    P.S. Yes Jacqueline we could post it a paragraph at a time. I\’m at a loss as how to proceed, but we are listening and will work harder to fulfill your suggested need.

  18. jacqueline says:

    Travelers do you know how to cite part of it then maybe link out to the full story?

  19. Lee Anthony says:

    Under law, but not a breaker of it. Scripture points out the curse, christ kept it perfectly, he fulfilled it, he never broke it. He did become a curse and took sin ulon himself when he was hung upon the tree. There is much written to see and understand clearly, and much that we can go in so many different directions with out thoughts and interpretations. I will leave it there, I agree with Jacqueline on this and since no one else seems to want to talk I guess I will let it go for now. Im sure they are reading so thats the important thing. I learn daily from God when I study and I will continue in this and as my children grow I will teach then to do the same and dare not force them to learn doctrine.. Only Christ and train them to learn the character of him. 😛

  20. travelers says:

    Please be patient this is condensed from approx. 50 pages to only 4.

    (Galatians 4:4, 5) . . .But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth his Son, who came to be out of a woman and who came to be under law, 5 that he might release by purchase those under law, that we, in turn, might receive the adoption as sons.

    At John 5:24 the Bible says,

    “…most truly I say to you, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life.”

    Seems pretty straight forward doesn’t it. Looking at Jesus’ example we can follow the process:

    He was transferred into Mary and born as a human child, a son of mankind. Jesus was born perfect, having Yahweh’s full complement of holy spirit with it’s increased mental capacity. Jesus still would not have life in the sense that he would not live forever. We’d like to discuss the transfer of the life force on which identity depends, so that the transfer of God’s son into the womb of Mary could be clear, but it’s too long for now. God’s son was to be born a corresponding ransom for Adam, in all respects as his human brothers. But In order to fit the reality he was born into he was born in “slave’s form”. This meant most likely smaller than a perfect man was in the beginning.

    Jesus was born into a time when the question had been asked, so no man, perfect or otherwise, could live to time indefinite because the ransom price had not yet been paid. Although the Son of God, he had become a son of man through his birth, and as such came to be “under law”, the law of condemnation.

    His mother Mary already under the law, entered the household of Joseph by marriage. Jesus, as an immature child, also entered the condemned household of Joseph his adoptive father as a dependant child. Under law a child’s stand before God who is not of the age of accountability is dependant on the head of the household. In this case Jesus had not sinned but became legally dead and condemned to God because he was now under law.

    As an adult, he “found himself” by following rational thought as he used his powers of perception. He pondered reality, self evident and scriptural, he then realized (Mea Culpa) his obligation to present himself, the only perfect man, as the ransom price. Can you imagine the realization, “I am the one”. Yep that’s right Neo. In presenting himself to do God’s will, works generated by frame of mind, he then had the hope/expectation of life everlasting from the point of baptism on. He was born again, or passed from death to life. Jesus received the token of what was to come, an anointing of spirit but greater than those to come after him and he entered into the household of God, legally. He had become living to God as the first “offspring of Abraham” and the first “son of Israel” to be born again to life, or cross from a dead condition to a living one in relation to Yahweh. This is why you can be preserved “alive” in the grave. It’s a legal distinction, not a state of consciousness.

    We see that although Jesus was without sin he was under law none the less because of his parents, and thus under the curse of the law. Remember that we are talking about the morality of the realities and specifically this one on earth. Yahweh had established law on earth again and everything done to save humanity had to adhere to this moral code, so Jesus had to come under law in order to deliver mankind, which was the reason Yahweh sent him. This was accomplished by his birth to Mary and his adoption by Joseph.

    (Galatians 3:10-14) 10 For all those who depend upon works of law are under a curse; for it is written: “Cursed is every one that does not continue in all the things written in the scroll of the Law in order to do them.” 11 Moreover, that by law no one is declared righteous with God is evident, because “the righteous one will live by reason of faith.” (I’d add ” faith of reason”) 12 Now the Law does not adhere to faith, but “he that does them shall live by means of them.” 13 Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake.” 14 The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham might come to be by means of Jesus Christ for the nations, that we might receive the promised spirit through our faith.

    Remember that Christ purchased us with the ransom price sent by his Father, Yahweh, it was God’s own son.

    (Mark 12:26-27) . . .But concerning the dead, that they are raised up, did YOU not read in the book of Moses, in the account about the thornbush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob’? 27 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living.. . .

    In the case of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they were declared righteous by God and as such would have life through the spirit of adoption to come, so they were considered to have life by Yahweh himself. Even though they had promises of life, they did not have the reality of it. They did not “have” the hope of the resurrection (the hope provided by the resurrection of the Christ, THE resurrection).

    A person who is considered righteous by Yahweh is declared righteous. A person that believes and exercises belief in Jesus and Yahweh who sent him, is also declared righteous. These will never lose their identity/life force from that point on. You need to remember that those declared righteous like Abraham along with all mankind are kept in memorial tombs until Armageddon. Those in the memorial tombs who are remembered by Yahweh are then received by Jesus who is given authority over the grave. In the resurrection Jesus calls out those of righteous heart condition, “circumcised of heart and ear”, those who used the spirit of adoption, those declared righteous, to existence again on earth. These do not come under judgment. During the resurrection, the rest who did not call on him he leaves in the grave unconscious, under judgment for the thousand years, awaiting destruction. He does this as king having authority over the living and the dead. To have life is to have the token of the spirit of adoption or to “exist” in Yahweh’s eye. Jesus reconciled the world to God which means gave an approach to God. We must “call” on it , pursue it.

    This process is why 1 John 5:1 states, “Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God….” That is why it says at Mt 3:17 “…This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

    Having presented himself to do God’s will, exercising the belief in himself as the messiah and Yahweh as God and his Father, Jesus received his promise of a resurrection. He set out to deliver himself as the ransom price. Jesus crossed over from death to life. . Jesus was now the only begotten Son of God, a son of man, a “son of Israel” “offspring of Abraham” . These are things only an adult could establish and only this one man. As a “son of Israel” he received the promise of adoption as an “adopted son of God” for us (a legal phrase), and the spirit that goes with it.and He was legally born again, attaining a life to time indefinite in relation to Yahweh and his promise of a resurrection under this new covenant (a legal term). This of course meant his life force would be preserved “a live” in the grave until his reward in the resurrection.

    At Ro 5:14 the Bible says, “all who are led by God’s spirit are God’s sons; Eph 4:6 says, “…one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all”.

    These scriptures show that Yahweh became his Father “today” legally, and Jesus his son legally, when Jesus offered himself to do God’s will.

    (Psalm 2:7, 8) . . .Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah; He has said to me: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your Father. 8 Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your own possession.

    If he had not presented himself, he would no longer have been covered by the stand and relationship that he had in heaven and would have died as Adam did, a corrupted man. We know and the Bible says he entered the grave and did not “see corruption”. Now that he was on earth and under the household of Joseph, he came under the curse of the law. When Jesus took a stand, he became an “offspring of Abraham” to be repurchased. However, there had not yet been a ransom price delivered to gain power over life and death.

    Knowing these things you can see that Yahweh gave his only begotten son at great risk, there was the “possibility” of failure. Jesus as the only begotten son already had immortality in the relationship with his Father, he risked this for us. Gods son was transferred to earth, to an existence where he was as his brothers in all respects. God’s son did not bring with him his awareness’ from heaven, this would have made him incarnate or just taking on form as the angels did. This is the reason he had to go through the birth process and begin as we do, and “find himself” as we must.

    Again, one can begin to see even more clearly how far reaching are the implications of the basic hope gained by this one resurrection, that of Jesus, the first fruit from the possibility of an out resurrection, and its relationship to the individual and the Nature of What Is… Real.

    Please read and then “ponder” who you have become, expressed in the scripture below. You have become a new creation, because you are one of the only “new” things created under the son. This happens when you cross from death to life. Now a “living” member of mankind. The rest never “come” to life. How cool and unique is that.

    (2 Corinthians 5:17) Consequently if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away, look! New things have come into existence.

  21. jacqueline says:

    Lee Anthony the Bible speaks clearly on a lot of things when it is ready for revealing. I have found if there is an agenda of a set in stone doctrine, men will allegorize and say this is a type of that or this really means this and not what it actually says. There are many types in the Bible, I know.
    I am just getting to the point where I let the Holy Spirit speak and if the Bible says something I don’t ask anybody who has a different doctrine on that subject that makes them have a special place.
    An example to explain what I mean is like Rev7: and the 14th says the 144,000 come from the tribes of Israel and exactly what tribes and exactly how many. Most religious men accept this and view the Church as separate.
    If God went to lengths to tell me three important aspects of this group, I know he says so you don’t miss it.

    A few Religions whole specialness falls apart if this is true. So because they have this agenda they steep the Bible in mystery.
    I couldn’t get on board with the consecration thing meaning I have to want to go to heaven now. I want to see my mother and deceased child and siblings, aunts, etc. I do see heaven held out but not before the thousand years as I see it.

    But it doesn’t matter because God and Jesus are both sitting on the thrones of rulership and they will judge and assign us to what will satisfy our every desire.
    I find the Bible opening up in so many ways that I rather get into it along with other thoughts than look at TV. I really don’t need to pay for anything but youtube.
    The Spirit reveals to those seeking little golden nuggets every time you open the scriptures.

    I get so excited that I want to share and the scriptures say we should but not argue or insist on the point. He will let each of his servants see things in relation to their seeking I believe. Some of us have families and responsibilities. Others have more time to spend in digging. Then there is Satan attacking some so hard they can only get into the word for a little time per day but it is what sustains each of us.

    I personally think God is pleased when we discuss scripture and impart a little for others to think on, file it away or go looking deeper. A personal relationship is all we need. He is a father, not this God that gets mad if we don’t follow other men’s teachings.
    But I am going to take the Bible more literally now rather than all the allegories I have been forced to accept for 70 years.
    Knowledge is increasing every day as Daniel was told. Take Care Lee

  22. Lee Anthony says:

    Im familiar with the out resurrection teaching…
    I have never heard that Jesus was legally dead under law, as the bible states he was without sin. No sin, no death penalty…
    As for heaven I personally have never had such a desire. Life is all I care for. God will put me where ever he wants if he decides I get to live.
    Those ruling with Jesus clearly do so over the earth, though new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to the earth after its all said and done in the 1000 years. Its all pretty straight forward and a good read but too many doctrines exist on these things and its not supposed to be this way I dont think. The holy spirit leads one into truth and would not reveal one thing to one person and another to another on the same thing. Its either one way or its not. Makes one wonder how so many can be led by the spirit yet all be led to a different thought on the same subject… Hmmm…. I dont try and be correct, I read it and compare it and if it says it I believe it, If It dont say it then I dont entertain it.

  23. jacqueline says:

    Traveler, I read every word and will break it down piece by piece. This is interesting. You see there was so much emphasis put on heaven for a few and everybody joyly just come back and all can go well. I stopped and said I better look at this for myself something is wrong, people are going to mess up if I believe this without looking closely.
    So now I am looking. I will follow this conversation with interest.
    Traveler I had faith in you that you could speak on our level. I understand every word. Thanks.

  24. travelers says:

    Lee Anthony ,

    Out resurrection, yes it\\\’s the same resurrection as what people are calling the first resurrection. The JW\\\’s really promote this even though in their interlinear translation it is translated correctly under the word for word. They of course think the 144,000 are the entire point of the Bible. But to save losing large numbers they too are trying to work out a way that everybody gets saved and there is no loss of life in the coming destruction.

    Resurrection: to stand before or take responsibility for one’s actions in relation to Yahweh.

    People seem to miss the point that the term \\\”resurrection\\\” is not a description of an event where individuals return from the unconscious state in which they \\\”exist\\\” in the grave, to a living conscious state, to \\\”existence\\\”, where they are again conscious.

    One of the aspects of the Bible that people have trouble with is that there is loss of life.

    If you call on Yahweh\\\’s name through faith in Jesus you are \\\”saved\\\”, you have crossed from death to life. People have trouble with the flip side. If you do not call on God you remain legally dead, unforgiven. When we enter into the grave we all have finished what we can do to be saved. We all stand before the judgment seat and receive our reward or hope, whatever we established in our life time.

    The reasons for the footstep followers\\\’ hope are twofold: It assures us that God will give us the reward of return to existence, as he did for Jesus, because we are also sons of Israel, offspring of Abraham, and we are to inherit the earth. This is described as an \\\”out resurrection\\\” reward. Secondly, we will escape the coming destruction. Remember that even Jesus was legally dead under law and had to cross from death to life on earth.

    The flip side is that those who do not call on God through Jesus receive no forgiveness for their acts against God and are held responsible, unforgiven. In this state they enter into the grave where they await , unconscious, the coming destruction. They will be cast into the lake of fire and destroyed. This is the result of their resurrection, their standing before God, their reward. This reward is called as a result, a \\\”resurrection to judgment\\\”.

    When God was \\\”bound\\\” by the asking of the \\\”question\\\” , \\\”why are you the one to decide right and wrong for everyone?\\\”, he had to allow this question to be considered, and a conclusion proven. This means that God cannot destroy anyone until this question is concluded, so the continued need for the grave. That is why the dead and the grave are given into Jesus\\\’ keeping until the end of the thousand year reign, and the answer is established.

    Many people for some reason think they want to go to heaven. We get this. What we can\\\’t understand is there is only one event, singular, for return from the grave to existence mentioned in the Bible. One resurrection reward mentioned that is a return to \\\”existence\\\”, the one at Armageddon. It says quite clearly that everyone that hears Jesus\\\’ voice comes out of the grave to earth.

    (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) . . .Moreover, brothers, we do not want YOU to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping [in death]; that YOU may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. (Those still dead legally, not forgiven, or already in the grave in the same legal state,awaiting the coming destruction)

    14For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep [in death] through Jesus God will bring with him. 15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, (both on earth alive now) will be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord. . .

    Jesus descends from heaven to put in order the earth now that he has put in order the heavens. He does this by replacing the \\\”god of the air\\\” Satan with himself. As the New \\\”god of the air\\\” he establishes the new Jerusalem, using the 144,000 to rule over the earth. Pretty straight forward.

    Ok from there you might try to make the meeting in the air work for ascension to heaven at some later point, except that Jesus just descended from heaven to rule, to establish himself as king over the earth, so it would have to be after his thousand year reign. Obviously we would like to go on, but we\\\’ll cut you a break.

  25. jacqueline says:

    Travelers, thank you so much for your insight. Much appreciated.

  26. Lee Anthony says:

    If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. (Philippians 3:11)
    The Greek here is out-resurrection. It not used anywhere else in the bible that I see unless we understandit as being the same as 1st resurrection.
    So is it the same resurrection as Romans 8:11, I Corinthians 15:52, and I Thessalonians 4:16? A question for travelers. I gave studied this before though most have never heard of out resurrection. You are the only one I see speak of it

  27. travelers says:

    Hi Jacqueline,

    Rev 20:5
    “The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.”

    In the original it points out for the sake of the on going record that those left in the grave did not come to life by some act within Jesus’ reign, the result being that as prophesied theirs was a resurrection to judgment. The thousand years over, the last part of the “question having been answered, the dead and the grave are cast into the lake of fire. Those of the “out” resurrection are not affected by Judgment. Yes, check it in the original “language”, it is out not first. That’s just a matter of lack of understanding and no framework to arrange facts into covering the Bible. Remember this record of events is to be the “smoke ascending forever and ever” that the living carry as the answer so that it can never happen again.

    (Revelation 20:5, 6) . . .(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.

  28. travelers says:

    Hi Christopher Johns,

    “I know what you mean. As a JW I never felt like I had the Holy Spirit in my life.”

    Just passing through, thought you’d find this bit of info interesting. I had to establish this for the elders of my congregation once. It was and is JW’s present truth that only those of the ruling body get holy spirit. Everybody else gets its benefit by associating with the organization as it shares the understandings gained from the holy spirit through the watchtower . I know every average witness thinks they were getting holy spirit. This misconception was and is so prevalent that even some writers in the publications would state things from time to time that needed correction. Remember, the Watch Tower is written to the 144,000, so when it says in a publication that the “we” receive the holy spirit to strengthen us in times of trial, it means that the 144000 have received it and trained their followers with information that allows them to know how to handle their problems. I may have the Watch Tower still that explained this in just a couple of paragraphs. It came out in the Sunday study the day after I explained this fact to our congregation overseer. Read carefully, very few people in the organization do. As a matter of fact outside of Franz’ writings, I’ve never talked with anyone who really understood the organization’s present truth. These things were always stated in a way that would not alienate the average person, the persons “associating” with the “Christian” congregation of 144,000.

  29. jacqueline says:

    I and my parents are from that era plus my grandparents and Uncles. I was even under Companies instead of congregations. I was present at the meeting that took over the companies from the Bible students to the organization.

    It is little known among our Northern brothers that the South didn’t get assimilated in the thirties or forties among the black companies. This assimilation came in in the late ’50s and truly almost the seventies.

    I try not to read so many books as it immerses me into something that reinforces it on the brain.
    Bad memories, we have found in psychology are best, not re-hashed as it makes an imprint on the brain in the new, easily accessed portion. New pathways are created to old memories, so I am selective in my reading.

    I am not just coming out of the witnesses, perhaps others on here reading might feel a need to read the book and thank you for posting it.
    Mentally I have been out of the witnesses since 1990s and physically since 2009.

    On our Thursday night meeting, Dave asked how many sat there for years saying we will just wait on Jehovah to clean things up? We all answered in the affirmative.
    Thursday night meeting was a turning point of not being a coward and shrinking back as we discussed Hebrews 10. Although this was the Jewish converts having to be strong against the still standing Jewish Temple and their stonings, it helped me to be bold and not be the sort to shrink back.

    God allowed the witness organization to proceed under Rutherford and the brothers of that time were okay with it. The one thing I mentioned to the FOJW site as I took my intellectual material and left was:

    IN THE NAME OF GOD GIVE THAT FIGHT OF 100 YEARS UP! CUT THE HATE TALK AND DO SOMETHING YOURSELF TO SPREAD as THE WITNESSES DID. SOME BIBLE STUDENTS ARE FIGHTING AND REHASHING THAT OLD “WILL” STUFF 100 YEARS NOW. How sad they can’t move on and progress.

    There should not be any Russell followers only Followers of our Lord and Redeemer Jesus Christ.

    1Cor. 2:2 “For I decided that while I was with you I would forget everything except Jesus Christ, the one who was crucified.”

    I am finished personally with the bitterness of those of the Bible Student Movement 100 year fight.

  30. Chris Johns says:

    Jacqueline,
    You should read it. He shows how Rutherford got the Bible students to replace individuality and Christ likeness with cheat and sales of books. How he got rid of Russell’s followers and built up the organization. It’s awesome .

  31. jacqueline says:

    No not personally. My father did and lots of people when I was young talked about it and some including my dad left the religion. My mom also left the Bible students first then the witnesses but later returned. I was Bible student first 8- 12 years of my life as they were not fully separated in the Black classes because we met in homes until the 1960s. My mother’s home was one of them until she left in 1959 after my dad died.
    I have heard and been on conversations about Schnell but I lived a lot of what he regret and talked about. I find most stories to be consistent with Raymond Franz, my Father and myself plus other relatives.
    My mom told me to choose my own way to God when I turned 18 and my deceased husband walked away in 1970 when the elder arrangement was being formed. He refused to be under the men of the watchtower society. He died and refused to return to them.
    I am happy now completely away from the two religions that have dominated my life because I was born into it.
    What is truth? God’s word is Truth. Jesus came to bear witness to the Truth. So I now am in the Truth, the Bible with Jesus as the way, truth and life. Not religious organizations or associations.
    I just read the other conversations because I went out to dinner and a little walking after eating.
    See you guys tomorrow. Love you.

  32. Christopher Johns says:

    Jacqueline Have you read “30 years a Watchtower slave”. It’s so fascinating. It’s about a Bible student that went through the changes with Rutherford and he describes it. It’s awesome.

  33. jacqueline says:

    Lee, how do we spell HELPER? We spell it HOLY SPIRIT.
    That is what it means to have Holy Spirit from God. Isn’t it. A JOY.

  34. Christopher Johns says:

    Lee,
    I know what you mean. As a JW I never felt like I had the Holy Spirit in my life. However, what men have done to the WT is what the papacy did to their version of christendom. Russell never centered a religion around himself. Many have become russellites and deemed him “that servant” and for some you may as well chapter and verse the volumes. Even the Laymen’s have a chart showing Jesus is on the right of Christ and even told me directly this. These are Russellites. This is manmade. Russell didn’t have a religion. Many of the Bible students like to say they are not an organization but some have made it “only us” which is no different. However I don’t blame anything going on now on Russell. Some have confused the message with the messenger. They let themselves leave the truth because of an imperfect mans literature. Many have taken Russell comments and called him racist or his marriage and called him names. However even Moses who was the mediator to Israel disobeyed God. If someone as great as Moses even erred against God why would we expect someone of less status to be perfect? Samson disobeyed God and was still listed in Hebrews 11. So even though his comments about race were the norm in his day he still was human. And even if he did have errors in his teachings none are perfect. The divine plan is still the divine plan and it doesn’t hang on him. There are some Bible students who believe the divine plan but don’t believe in the volumes or watchtowers. No problem because the Divine Plan doesn’t hang on Russell but on the Bible.. The LDS or Mormons whole religion falls on the testimony of Joseph Smith. If he is false then the Book of Mormon and their plan of salvation falls. As well as their sealing ceremonies and three levels of heaven and becoming God’s. The divine plan doesn’t hang on Russell. Many have come to the conclusion of the same beliefs we have. Christadelphians and SDA churches and Armstrong breakoffs believe much what we do. I don’t follow Russell. I believe much of what he wrote but not because of him but because of how much in harmony it is with the Bible. My ecclesia aren’t russellites. What sister Jacquline experiences is not what we are like. My whole ecclesia is black and they know much of the comments by Russell said regarding race. They don’t let it bother them because that was a mans opinion. If they let what everyone said about them drive them from the truth then everyone would have left. I believe the Bible student have much truth. I don’t agree with everything they say and they aren’t going to intimidate my into believing it.

  35. Lee Anthony says:

    I will say that we all need teachers to a certain degree yet only until we develop our own relationship with the Lord and are able to learn from his word and spirit. My downfall was reliance on teachers, unfortunately this ruined my own walk and I had to in turn start all over and it was in fact a blessing in doing so. My personal spiritual gift is of discernment, usually this is in situations when being around new or unknown people, I have a gift of being able to see through them so to speak if they are being real or not. This is a gift that works only in person but has kept me from harmful associations many times, among other things both in the business world and in the spiritual world. I do of course have to be paying attention. I only state this because The Lord has taught me many lessons during situations that have been negative and My family and I have been mistreated by many who are part of religious groups, some who are teachers themselves. It may be for some but for us we rely on the word, the Lord, and of others who are relying on the same things as we then learn from each other and can say now that we are teachers of one another, and students of the Lord.

  36. Christopher Johns says:

    Lee. Yes. Agreed. That’s why I believe in bible typology. It interprets itself. I found the divine plan in Genesis with Hagar and Sarah. And the search for the bride in Isaac and Rebekah. The dispute between Cain and Abel is what happened with Jesus and Israel. That’s how I know what I believe is true. I believe in the 144,000 because it’s everywhere in the tabernacle and Abraham’s numbers. It’s also in the fish and loaves of the feedings. Abraham sacrificing his son is a picture as well. Lifting up of the snake in the wilderness. You can parallel what appended with Sinai and Pentecost. The two days of redemption gospel and millennial are shown in the tabernacle say of atonement.
    Everything I believe is shown through typology. This is how I know the divine plan is true. It’s amazing. I would never have known this without the books I studied. The Bible says we have teachers. Nothing wrong. I’ve read genesis before as a JW and never got what I got out of it studying with the Bible students.

  37. Lee Anthony says:

    It is hard to read something and see it one way when we have always felt it must be another. I spent many months trying to forget all I had learned and didnt open the bible not 1 time nor did I pray. I forced myself into spiritual depression in order to get rid of pre conceived ideas and I am able to see things much simpler now. It all makes more sense than it did before, Its very black and white and easy to read. I have heard it is not but I do not find it at all difficult, the bible seems to interpret itself.

  38. Chris Johns says:

    Jacqueline,
    Yes. If we take it out it makes so much sense. , I don’t believe they are raised after the 1,000 years because the only Verse that says this is Revelation 20:5 which we have seen doesn’t make sense and is spurious. Plus who are the 144,000 reigning over if they aren’t brought up from the dead until after the 1,000 years? How can the do as Isaiah 26:9 days and learn righteousness. How can they walk up the highway of holiness? Who are the kings and priests over?

  39. jacqueline says:

    So maybe keep reading from verse 7 onward take note of verses 11- 14.
    Now I am not claiming to totally understand this because I just saw it in the last 2 weekd and never saw nor heard this during my time as a witness nor Bible student. Everything, all ressurections were done before the thousand years ended and judgement had to fit within that thousand years.
    Now I see what the scriptures actually says and I will pray and study more.
    I didn’t put this here to convince anyone else just to share what I see now. If you feel that. the bracketed text is not inserted, but a part of the next sentence then that is how you see it.
    I notice the witness Bible no longer puts it in Brackets. Could it be they realize it is inserted because they may be getting a clearer understanding of verses 11-14?
    I will keep searching.

  40. jacqueline says:

    The NWT used to put that sentence in brackets and RVIC by Jim Parkinson and others tell you in the back of the Bible. So if you remember English the ohrase6″This is the first Ressurrection refers to the sentence before the words in the brackets. Take out the”spurious”text and read it. You will see the first resurrection refers to the ones ruling with him for the thousand years.

  41. Christopher Johns says:

    Jacqueline,
    Rev 20:5 says that those who are raised after the 1,000 are the first resurrection. How do you harmonize that with you saying that that’s the second resurrection. Hence why it’s spurious.

    Rev 20:5
    “The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.”

    These are not my words. It says in the scripture that those raised after the 1,000 years are the first resurrection. But you’re saying it’s the second.

  42. jacqueline says:

    BTW Christopher when I refer to Russell and governing body I am not directing to your comment. This is a website for many readers to see and I almost always talk to the crowd because this is all of our former beliefs. Just wanted to explain this website talks to the readers at large.

  43. jacqueline says:

    Christopher probably more than 50% because you are under obligation to put it there if the manuscript you are using has it.
    However you and I are talking about different things, all know this may be spurious. I am talking about verse 7 not 5. 7 and onward.
    We know the first resurrection is done and they rule for a thousand years but the second ressurrection isn’t who they are ruling over during this 1000 year’s because the Bible says that resurrection takes place after the thousand years.
    If you move pass verse 5 in the narrative it progresses.
    But maybe this is something I see and I could be reading it wrong but. I see why the margin notation was made. I never saw this before I stopped at verse 5 like I was taught, but now I read on. Revelation is not as difficult as before.

  44. Christopher Johns says:

    Jacqueline.

    Did you know that nearly 50% of the earliest manuscripts shows 20:5 is partly spurious?
    See how it flows better when the spurious part of 5 is removed. Rev 20:4-6

    “4 – They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5.b – This is the first resurrection.
    6 – Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection.
    over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.“

    Full harmony between the three now. Did you know that over 200 manuscripts don’t have this verse?

    Because how can the FIRST resurrection in verse 5 be AFTER the 1,000 years yet verse 6 says those of the FIRST resurrection reign with him DURING the 1,000 years. That’s like enjoying a party before you show up.

  45. Christopher Johns says:

    Jacqueline,

    The quote I shared is what the Bible students teach. You simply statues that they are judged for what they do after the millennium. The “Beyond Today” brethren which are a breakoff of Armstrong believe what you’re saying. But they don’t believe in an opportunity after death.

    I see it as the work of verse 13 the entire millennium. Otherwise the world of mankind is on trial now for what they do. It can’t be after the 1,000 years because vs 5 says that the first resurrection is after the 1,000 years while verse 6 says the first resurrection reigns with him DURING the 1,000 years. That’s why I believe vs 5 is spurious. That’s like saying I supervised the party for 2 hours but I came to the party after the it ended. The oldest manuscripts don’t have “the rest of the dead came to life after the 1,000 years have ended”. Don’t take my word. Look it up. The bride cane reign for 1,000 years while not being awakened until after 1,000 years. Verse 5,6 both say these are the first resurrection. Not the second. If verse 5 said this is the second resurrection I would get it. But how can the first resurrection occurs after the 1,000 years while it also says that those of the first resurrection reign with him during the 1,000 years.

  46. jacqueline says:

    Christopher, I have never seen this taught by the Bible students or the Witnesses. They both teach that this occurs during the Millennium. The Bible says AFTER the 1,000 years are OVER, The dead are RAISED. It seems they are noy there when the Devil is let loose, notice he got thrown in the lake of fire before they got resurrected.

  47. Christopher Johns says:

    Yes. Got it. Thanks. 🙂 so much easier

  48. jacqueline says:

    Christopher, do you see the arrows on the right for up and down?

  49. Chris Johns says:

    Jacqueline,
    You said “Now it seems to me that the 2nd resurrection people who have died and are not under the stain of sin anymore but have as Adam that conscience that God makes you with are judged out of the things they do after their resurrection.”

    You said you just found this out this week.
    This is what has always been taught. The Bride raised first as first fruits and the rest raised and judged on what they have done
    in the millennium. Why did you say you just found this out? It’s what I’ve always been taught as a Bible student.

  50. Christopher Johns says:

    Jacqueline,
    Ahh now you see what I was saying. Yes. Also is there a way you move the comment box to the top or have a reply butting so we don’t have to keep scrolling all the way to the bottom to comment?

  51. jacqueline says:

    Christopher, I see what you are referencing now. But the first resurrection takes place before the reign as they met him in the air. This was His trumpet coming for the saints, not His second coming to Jerusalem. The insert might just be a scribal insert about the second resurrection, but that verse is talking about the first resurrection persons ruling with him for a thousand years not the unjust of Revelation 20:7.

    Verse 5 is written in the margin of some ancient manuscripts. But it seems to be in harmony with verse 7-14.
    The thousand years is about getting things under control and having perfect conditions so that when Satan is loosed these survivors and nations can’t say they were not under the right conditions.

    Now it seems to me that the 2nd resurrection people who have died and are not under the stain of sin anymore but have as Adam that conscience that God makes you with are judged out of the things they do after their resurrection.

    Christopher, I CAN’T EXPLAIN THIS! I am just seeing it this week, it is like a voice inside the brain is causing me to focus on exactly what the scriptures are saying and not allegorizing them as I was instructed as a witness and Bible student.

    So I am just showing what I think I am seeing but need to pray and dig further.

    I need to admit something here. I have been reluctant to share on here things I am learning because there are some that feel because I am female I shouldn’t be discussing scripture. In fact, that was the main reason I left the Friends of Jehovah witness site. I was told on one hand that there is neither male nor female in the body of Christ but as a female, I wasn’t to use any scriptures on the site. (Got this in writing)
    So I have to pull my mine out from under this attempted to stop me from thinking. So I have hesitated to share.
    The indwelling of the Spirit, however, says speak and so I heed the Spirit and nor shrink back because of men not wanting a female to question long-held beliefs.
    BTW there are Bible student men and women in secret doing the same thing. Some of them got the same words I got so they went underground and left the class.

    Just thought I would share that since I got a call this weekend from a brother that left and he wanted to talk to me. He, however, wants me to relax and drop the Bible thing but He is a snare to me in a loving way. I have to work from under this mental hostage and so I struggle but not going to shut up until Christ says shut up. LOL
    It is like a fire in my bones not just my heart.

  52. Christopher Johns says:

    Jacqueline,
    It’s spurious. Please read it again.

    Rev 20:5,6
    5.The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    According to verse 5 the FIRST resurrection is AFTER the 1,000 years. Yet verse 6 says those of the FIRST resurrection reign with him DURING the 1,000 years. How is that possible? Yes there is a second resurrection but 5,6 say this is the FIRST resurrection.

    Simple. It’s spurious and the Sinatic manuscript shows it.

  53. jacqueline says:

    John 14:6 yes it does doesn’t it. So it seems as if what I personally have been taught from my former religions is not quite on the mark.
    I just felt since so many of the people I was associated with are seeing these new revelations of the book of Revelation, I would share.

    John 14:6 you may not have had this steeped in you as I had but it gives me a frame of reference to compare.
    I welcome you here on the site and want to say I don’t normally engage in too much of pushing what I see in scripture as I believe it is the obligation of each individual to pray and look it up themselves.

    That being said, however, we are here to help each other look at the Bible and not filter it thru the eyes of our older men that died before Holy Spirit revealed openly the things in Revelation.

    No smear on them but to hold to their teachings without looking for ourselves in 2019 would be a smear on me. I hope it causes a leap to search.

  54. Christopher Johns says:

    Jacqueline,
    I haven’t been shaped by anything. Read Rev 20:5,6. Yes there will be a second resurrection. However both verse 5,6 say this is the FIRST resurrection.

    AGAIN heres my question.
    Verse 5 says those after the 1,000 years ARE THE FIRST RESURRECTION. NOT THE SECOND.
    Then verse 6 says that those of the FIRST RESURRECTION reign with Christ.
    How is that possible.

  55. jacqueline says:

    Christopher no you didn’t mention Russell or governing body but this is why we never saw that verse 7 -14 shows the second resurrection as coming after the thousand years. I am not demeaning them but this is a site where we have frames of reference to these two religions and have shaped us. You might have been shaped because you were there only briefly but we have had tons of articles on this subject as witnesses from 1960 onward.

    The saints are resurrected in the first resurrection Revelation 20:6 says”6 Blessed and holy is the one who takes part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.”

    These are not it appears to be the ones mentioned in verse 7 of chapter 20.
    The Millennial reign is about subjecting all things, including governments, clean air, water, housing for those who will be resurrected later. The second resurrection people are not the rulers with Christ as I understand it, they are the John 5:28,29.
    What I am seeing to me is that instead of Paradise during thousand years, ETERNITY and the ages to come are future to this event.

    Each person has to come to their own conclusions on this matter. I just thought I would throw it out there to have a conversation and raise awareness that the teachings that we have been exposed too are old and not looked at in light of new awareness opened up by the Holy Spirit since we are near.

    Now I mentioned Bible Students because Grand Plan Bible Students believe we are already in the thousand year reign of Christ. That it started in 1874. So there is validity in mentioning the Bible students and the Witnesses belief. We are a prduct of their teachings and I can’t dismiss that for myself.
    But now as you say I am looking at Revelation with new eyes without long held doctrines influencing.
    Just one of the Christian Ministers I can reference this one. Not to influence anyone on here but to throw it out there. Careful personal study should be done by all. I only mentioned this because I was asked by a brother whether or not I have shared what is being found out. I said know I like for people to do their own study on what they want to learn. He said at least throw it out there, so here it is. There is no request to consider this by anyone on here but just showing one of the places that I considered. Take Care

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouqysm1aao0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9H5K7uNjms

  56. Christopher Johns says:

    Lee,
    I know what you’re saying. Yes I believe the whole world that’s raised will be Judged after the 1,000 years. The millennium of their time of trial. My point is Rev 20:5,6 something isn’t right. How can they be come to life AT THE END of the 1,000 years yet reign DURING the 1,000 years? Which is why I believe that part of Rev 20:5 is spurious. Some other bible commentaries have said it’s spurious as well. I didn’t take Russell’s word for it. I just don’t see how those of the first resurrection will come to life after the 1,000 years while those of the first resurrection are reigning during the 1,000 years. It’s impossible.

    “The rest of the dead >>lived not until the thousand years should be finished<>This is the first resurrection<?<>first resurrection<>they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years<<.”Rev 20:5,6

    See how it says that the first resurrection is after 1,000 years while it says that those of the first resurrection are those who reign with him during the 1,000 years.

  57. John 14:6 says:

    (Revelation 20:10-12) states that the books were opened after satan is cast into the Lake of fire which is after the 1000 years. ” In answer to question top of page”

  58. Lee Anthony says:

    I agree Jacqueline. Jesus said he witnessed satan fall from heaven. (Luke 10:18) the context, Jesus, in so many words tells them they should not have been surprised when they see demons subject to them, Satan is a fallen foe and has always been subject to the authority of the Son of God, it reminds me of Isaiah 14:12) yet timeline is uncertain. We know satan had limited access to heaven in Job 1:6) I dont think Jesus is speaking of anything other than a past event when talking to the 70 or however many returning disciples here so I see the battle of Michael happening prior to Jesus being on earth and when Jesus says he witnesses it and did not himself do it it would indicate a seperation between him and Michael.
    I also agree that many will be left on earth as thebible states it clearly. I was just responding totheonepoint on When rest of dead are judged. 1st resurrection or out resurrection does indeed happen before thousand years otherwise where would those sitting on thrones with Jesus come from. So yes The point is simply made in scripture wether Rev talksabout all of dead or not they seem to be judged after not during 1000 years and it is certaim that Jesus and the chosen ones sitting w/ him will do the judging of all those in the resurrection of judgement.

  59. Christopher Johns says:

    Jacqueline,
    Funny thing I didn’t mention anything by Russell. I used the Bible and logic alone not not a commentary . How can one reign for 1,000 years while not coming to life until after the 1,000 years? This is not mentioning two groups in rev 20:5,6 because it says they are the first resurrection. That’s what the Bible says!! I didn’t mention Russell or the GB or JWs. And yes we can have teachers. The Bible says we have teachers. Bible alone and Holy Spirit are why many believe they have the truth and why we have 40,000 denominations.

  60. jacqueline says:

    Lee Anthony, there will be many survivors left after Jesus speaks and the armies fall and the birds eat their flesh. (Rev. 19:20). Notice there is no Carnage when Jesus comes to rescue Israel, the sword comes out of his mouth. The nations are there still during the thousand years as Jesus sets up his rulers. Michael the warrior angel of God (not Jesus) has kicked Satan out of heaven and Jehovah said He would put Jesus enemies under his feet. That is what Michael the Arch Angel does. (Rev.12:7-9) Jesus is a God, not an angel. (John 1:1)
    Look at the explanation that I wrote for Christopher for how we know the BIBLE ACTUALLY says this. Then, I would like to take up your other points after seeing there is a difference in what both religions taught us, but of course, it all comes from Russell.

    I became suspicious as everything seemed to not be what the Bible actually said if it disagreed with Russell or the Governing Body. I am going verse by verse with other BIBLE MINISTERS. tHEY AREN’T SCHOLARS BUT SIMPLY ARE SPEAKING UNDER THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

    Jesus Rule on the throne of David: Psalm 2, Daniel 7:13-14, Isa 9:6-7, Zech. 8:3 & 2:10-12; Eze. 37: 26-27 &43:5-7

  61. Christopher Johns says:

    Lee,
    Again Rev 20;5 is spurious partly. “The rest of the dead did not come to life until after the 1,000 years were ended” is spurious. One of the most reliable manuscripts such as the Sinaitic does not have this. I’m not saying that there aren’t two resurrections. Rev 2011-19 isn’t the same group as 5,6. So that point it moot. Im saying look at Rev 20:5,6. It says that the FIRST resurrection is AFTER the 1,000 years while in verse 6 it says that those in the FIRST resurrection are to reign 1,000 years. How can one reign for 1,000 years yet not come to life until after the 1,000 years?!?! Rev 20:5,6 and not talking about two groups. It says those are both the first resurrection. This makes no sense and therefore is correct that it is spurious.

    Here’s and equivalent of what it would say if it were a different scenario.

    “Chris didn’t come to the party until after it ended. Chris came and watched over the party from the beginning.” How?

  62. Lee Anthony says:

    Rev 20:5) The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    Many scholars say this verse is spurious… Though it says in john 5:28-29 Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice, will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
    Then in Rev 20:11-12 I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them.

    12 I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    This is after the 1000 years so it seems to be that judgement may takeplace then. What will those from the 1st resurrection do on earth then? Well they will rule over someone on earth Im sure. I know that many scriptures talk of a day that has been appointed…. Ecc. 5:14) Rom 2:16) And many more. As far as I see the only ones that speak of exact time is in Revelation and it seems to indicate judgement after not during 1000 years. Even if that verse is spurious it still indicates the same timeline. (1 Cor. 6:2) Do you not know that the saints will judge the world..
    What does everyone think of this verse? No explanation anywhere else except Rev 20:4) They sit on thrones judging men and angels so does judgement start with the fallen then while locked in the abyss? Maybe…. When inmates are locked up they then receive their judgement and are later released after sentence is carried out. This is speculation ( I rarely do this) but satan seems to be sentenced to 1000 years and then released and of course he is bad again so is thus given the lake of fire sentence which we know was prepared long b4 just for them. Matt 25:41)
    Good way to get some practice🤔.
    They will be tormented day and night forever and ever….Vs. 10) and just after this verse comes the great white throne and judgement is said to begin for the dead according to all they said or did. (Matt 12:36) 2 cor. 5:10)
    Some teach this is going to be good cause ALL get a resurrection but I dont think all will see it this way during this time, I think the bible clearly teaches a judgement for things said and did and that the clean slate idea is just overthinking Gods loving character a bit too much… however I also see that some will not be destroyed at this point either.

  63. Christopher Johns says:

    Jacqueline,
    It’s not spurious not because I don’t agree with it but because it makes no sense. Read it in 20:5,6. How can you reign for 1,000 years yet not come to life until after the 1,000 years have ended? It makes no sense which is why it’s been called into question. That’s why it’s spurious.

    Rev 20:5,6
    “The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION . 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION : over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be PRIESTS of God and of Christ, and shall REIGN WITH HIM A THOUSAND YEARS.”

    Question. How can they come to life after the 1,000 years yet have reigned with him during those 1,000 years? And we know that these aren’t two groups of people mentioned here because it says the come and reign with him has priests.

  64. jacqueline says:

    Christopher thanks for commenting. I have found texts are sometimes rendered spurious because it does not agree with long-held beliefs. And it might have been put in the margin but that is spurious also. Scholars aren’t sure so all mostly have to add it. Some because it harmonizes with the next verses.
    That is not the part of the Revelation I am referring to, not verse 5.

    Notice carefully verse 7. Then Read verses 11 onward of chapter 20. Revelation is a Revealing, not a concealing, It has its own outline, in the beginning, the things John has seen, the things happening and future events.
    Even some Bible minded BS are looking at Revelation with their eyes in a group because of the doctrines of the witnesses and the simplistic doctrine of the BS. There seems to be more.
    I keep in mind that years probably pass (don’t know how many on this resurrection) before Revelation 21 begins but this actual reading beyond verse 5 tells us it is as neat and tidy as Russell makes it seem. I have to keep in mind Russell and the governing body has an agenda, to raise them to rulership in heaven.
    BTW, the Bible actually says Christ will rule on the throne of David on earth for the thousand years and the ones He meets in the air are to rule with him on earth. They are seen in Heaven later as the angel tells John. “Come let me show you the Bride. He shows him where she lives.

    Satan Bound

    1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.

    4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

    5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

    Satan Cast into the Lake of Fire

    7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.

    9And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them. 10And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    Judgment Before the Great White Throne

    11Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.

    And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.

    14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

  65. Christopher Johns says:

    Jacqueline,
    I think the scripture you’re referring to says “and the rest of the dead do not come to life until after the thousand years have ended. This is the first resurrection .” Rev 20:5 We believe that’s spurious. Reason why is because at the end of that verse it says “This is the FIRST resurrection.” Then it says immediately in vs 6 “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”

    So how can one reign for 1,000 years yet not be raised until the end of the 1,000 years have ended? It says they will come to life in the first frasircwtion after the 1,000 years have ended yet they will reign for 1,000 years. Hmmm

  66. jacqueline says:

    Lee Anthony and there are some lands where they don’t have Bibles and have only heard about the love Jesus showed in dying for us and God gave HIS only begotten son.
    This awareness of Love and doing what our God-given conscience says about treating others have made them martyrs for Christ. Their end will be the first resurrection hopefully.
    Hey, and are you aware that the Bible actually says the 2nd resurrection takes place after the thousand years are ended?
    THERE IS PROBABLY A “Gap of years” but I always thought it happened during the thousand years. The thousand years is not judgment day, per se for the 2nd resurrection. I am sure this takes some years but how do you see this???

  67. Lee Anthony says:

    (2 cor 11:3) But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve in his craftiness, so your minds might be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

    (Matt. 22)
    38 This is the first and great commandment.
    39 A second likewise is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
    40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”

    (Gal. 5)
    14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

    (Matt 7)
    12 Therefore, whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.

    Imagine ALL of those who live in a land where the gospel is outlawed and there are no bibles. If they knew only these scriptures and applied them daily, what would be their end? Just a thought for today.

  68. jacqueline says:

    39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

    40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

    41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

    42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

    43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    In the Septuagint (3rd–1st centuries BCE), Greek παράδεισος parádeisos was used to translate both Hebrew פרדס pardes and Hebrew גן gan, “garden” (e.g. (Genesis 2:8, Ezekiel 28:13): it is from this usage that the use of “paradise” to refer to the Garden of Eden derives.

    The King and Queen had beautiful gardens where visitors would meet but not actually be inside the Palace or before the King. It can mean a holding place for those that are waiting to enter the presence of the King.
    So I was thinking that Jesus and the Thief were indeed together that day for the both died in the “Garden” or Paradise that day. We don’t really have to mess with the comma if we look at Paradise meaning from a Jewish – Greek perspective.
    Sometimes it could take three days for a person to die during crucifixion but because of the Sabbath coming up the other men legs were broken and everybody died that day.
    Jesus didn’t rise until 3 days later but both of them were waiting. Lazarus was raised on the fourth day and the others on the day they died.
    Sheoul received Jesus and the Thief that day but the thief has got the opportunity to be with Jesus in the kingdom when He rules from Jerusalem during the thousand years.
    Just another viewpoint on a difficult to understand scripture.

  69. jacqueline says:

    TedR I agree with every thought you have expressed! A BS elder told me all numbers in Revelation are literal but not so, the 24 elders represent the Saints. So Jesus gave Revelation in signs and symbols. To limit who rules to just a small number was adopted to fit certain classes of men around 1800’s til now.
    I see the contrast of Israel with every nation, tribe and tongue not small number contrasted with big number. Always two ways or more to look freshly at scripture. We have been captives of a Concept. That Concept being the world ending in 1914, 1925, 1975, now 2038 by Bible Students.

  70. jacqueline says:

    I sent it to him Ted.

  71. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    Lee Anthony
    That would be great! Sister Jacqueline has my email address and phone number. I am free both days and Columbus is only an hour and a half for me. Let me know what works for you. If you email me it will be more private.
    Take care!

  72. Lee Anthony says:

    Hey Ted.
    My family and I will be in Ohio on the 29th and 30th of this month for some business that my wife has to attend to. We will be staying around Columbus, not sure what hotel just yet but if you can get away just to meet up and talk a bit that would be good. Will see what happens with our schedule between now and then.
    Lee

  73. jacqueline says:

    TedR also while I am talking about things I can’t see from my former associations with the Witnesses and the Bible students which is really Russell’s teachings.
    Jesus is not an Angel, He is a God (John 1:1). He said as he ascended that all power was given into his hands.
    In Revelation 1: we see Jehovah told him and He told an angel to go tell John. He sends angels for he is a God he is divine but not Jehovah his father nor equal to Him/
    Michael is the ARC ANGEL. He is a warrior that fights! He helped the angel who was fighting with the “Prince of Persia” (Satan’s prince) in the book of Daniel. While Daniel started to pray the angel went forth but was delayed for 21 days.
    Jesus has all power over death and Hades and Michael goes at his command to siege the dragon and binds him for 1,000 years.
    All Jews know of the defender of the Jews Michael the Arc Angel.
    Jesus is not their Angel He is the Messiah they are looking for, their Ruler. Only Russell followers (all the different break a ways existing today) are confused about what the Jews are not.
    There is no scripture that I can find that says Jesus is Michael in his prehuman existence nor afterward.
    Stephen said he saw Jesus sitting at the right hand of God for He took is a God and not an Angel/
    Angels don’t have immortality, JESUS DOES!
    This thing Russell and his followers have that diminishes Jesus puzzles me??? He was indeed a man but was more than the ransom needed to redeem us. And if he was doing a leverate as with Boaz and Ruth then that could explain why this overkill of redemption came to die for mankind. A Ransom has to be the sum asked but it can be much more than asked. He was much more because he raised the dead and cured the sick, Adam never did that. So he was a man and then some.
    I am going outdoors to do some yard work but I just had to get that out of my system as the spirit revealed.
    BTW, thanks for posting because I check the stats on the website and we had:

    50 cities and 12 countries that check the website almost every day. They normally look for new content. So My new intern is going to revamp the site and post new article also. One of her assignments is she should attend and run the board on Saturday night. So look for some improvements.
    Also, I should have grabbed askjacqueline.com while I had the name share for 260.00 now that designation sells for over 2500.00 dollars. If we were on that our numbers would soar. Us having this ask Jacqueline and another you tuber has made that an expensive name on .com. I should have bought it earlier, boo-hoo.

  74. jacqueline says:

    TedR, I agree that there was such a “Privileged” me attitude among followers of Russell in most of the groups, even Johnson. It does not endear you to such haughtiness. We forget why Jesus came and the focus goes on them as special people. I still saw the dumbing down of Jesus and His ransoming ALL of Adam’s descendants. He is the go’el, the next of kin in the leverate arrangement so that Adam offspring (seed) will live. It is not about the Church, the way I see it. I see it being about Jehovah’s provision for salvation. Which includes 1,000 years of Christ sitting on the throne of David and as Revelation 5:10 says to rule with him on earth, the 24 elders who are the saints.

    This is the simple way I see it without making it too complicated

  75. jacqueline says:

    TedR, I thought that maybe I should call attention to verse 10 of Revelation 5:1-10. Please note where they shall reign at the end of verse 10. ON THE EARTH not over it from heaven. This is another instance also where the numbers in Revelation are not literal as I was informed by the Bible students. They say all numbers are in Revelation are exact, not true.
    Revelation
    6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. 8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying,

    “Worthy are you to take the scroll
    and to open its seals,
    for you were slain, and by your blood, you ransomed people for God
    from every tribe and language and people and nation,
    10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
    and they shall reign on the earth.”

  76. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    I agree. I notice that many ex-JW’s and Bible Students cling to the “anointed class” interpretation. The Bible to me clearly states that there is “One hope, on Lord and one baptism”. Nowhere have I seen two separate classes of Christians. I am also coming to the conclusion that the 144000 could be a symbolic number, but I have not yet set this in stone, I am still contemplating the possibility and arguments. While Christ will select a Bride composed of those faithful to death, that determination is made by Christ himself and it is not up to us to claim a special relationship with him while we yet live. All of us who have accepted Christ and strive to follow his footsteps are anointed with Gods Spirit and have that one hope!

  77. jacqueline says:

    TedR, I knew Pearl before she left, tried to get her to just walk away and, not engage the elders. She was a very strong Christian. But not strong enough in her spirit to realize the evil personal assault to your spirit by men you have known for so long.
    She bounced back after the disfellowshipping with Holy Spirit help. It was so difficult for her to have her name read from the platform.
    Her post:
    Those are good points to consider, I, however, do not see scripture as anointed individuals to rule. I never understood “Anointing” in the witnesses, as all anointing in the Bible with oil etc was open and not shrouded in mystery.
    I also believe Jesus will come again and fulfill the scripture to sit on the “Throne of David”. Just as he fulfilled every little scripture while dying he has to fulfill this one on earth. David does not have a throne in heaven.
    Priest and Kings for a thousand years are not needed in Heaven. Rulership is covered already in heaven. In fact we Pray for the Will of God to be done on earth as it IS in heaven.
    I also agree with Paul that he had not attained his call to be wherever Christ would be but he pressed on for the upward call as ALL Christian do. Toward his death only did he declare “I have fought the fine fight”. Like Jesus on the Crux. “Be ye faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life” so says our Lord. “We are all brothers now, so says the Bible. The death of Christ was to redeem ALL mankind, not about giving anointed positions of power over man. The whole premise of this anointed power is out of kilter with witnesses and ex, I think.
    Perhaps some Jehovah witnesses and ex witnesses have been told they are picked special from all Christians to be of 144,000. But where it is mentioned in Revelation it doesn’t say that. He mentions 3 aspects of the choosing of this number then shows other national groups with no number.
    Many of the scriptures are the same as quoted in the comment so I won’t repost them but something to look at, the basic premise is based on special anointed ones of the Jehovah Witnesses.

  78. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    Pearl Doxsey Posted this on Facebook. Any comments? An interesting and supported take on Armageddon. May be worth researching.

    Pearl Doxsey
    22 hrs ·
    Watchtower doctrine teaches that the “thousand years” of Jesus is literal, and that it takes place after Armageddon. That is not what the Bible indicates. Please look for yourself…
    Rev.20: “7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them FOR BATTLE. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the EARTH and surrounded the camp of God’s saints” (Some translations read “God’s people”, who are also the anointed -see 1Pet.2:9-10)
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
    Do you see from this, that the anointed will be surrounded while on earth? (Just as they are during the great tribulation -see Luke21:20).
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
    Does not the WT teach that after Armageddon and after the thousand years, that all the anointed are in heaven?

    The WT teaches that Jesus symbolic “thousand year” kingdom, started in 1914… but the Bible shows that Jesus kingdom started when he was on earth (see Luke 22:69; Ps.110:1-2; 1Cor.15:25).
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…

    The WT teaches that the “thousand year” kingdom of Jesus will be one of peace. But the Bible indicates that it is a period during which, Jesus wars with and subdues his enemies, through the members of Zion. That warfare is not physical, but spiritual. (Ps.110:2; 2Cor.10:3-5; Rev.19:11,14; 17:14; Eph.2:6; 6:12).
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…

    The WT teaches that the Battle that occurs after Satan’s release, is not Armageddon. The Bible indicates that the attack on the holy ones by Satan, the false prophet, and it’s Beast organization, IS Armageddon. It is the situation where all must decide where they stand… either with the truths of scripture, or with the demonic lies of the false prophet.
    Rev.20:7-8,10; 16:13-16; 17:14; 16:14; 1Tim.4:1; Matt.24:24-25; Rev.13:7,10; Col.2:8
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…

  79. jacqueline says:

    Gen 3:24 “So He drove out the man and stationed cherubim on the east side of the Garden of Eden, along with a whirling sword of flame to guard the way to the tree of life.”

    2Kings 19:35 “And that very night the angel of the LORD went out and struck down 185,000 men in the camp of the Assyrians. When the people got up the next morning, there were all the dead bodies!” “The Way” is mentioned several times in the book of Acts (Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22) in connection with early followers of Christ. It was to take prisoner men and women who “belonged to the Way” (Acts 9:2; 22:4) that Saul of Tarsus went to Damascus. After Saul was converted, he became a missionary and went by the name of Paul. In Ephesus, Paul met some in the synagogue who “became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way” (Acts 19:9). Paul left the synagogue and continued to preach the gospel where it would be heard rather than remain with those who denigrated the Way.

    John 14:6 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    Cherubim are Powerful Beings. Why not just put an angel at the WAY to the tree. One angel killed 185,000 in one night. This is best understood when we consider that Satan was the chief of Cherubim and Adam was not the problem with the regard to the Tree it was another Cherubim, satan. THE WAY to life is through Jesus so a strong angel stood to prevent Satan from showing mankind where the tree was and he would be the way.
    A regular angel was no match for the cherubim satan you fight like with like, power with power. You don’t take a knife to a gun fight.
    Just my understanding of why such a powerful Cherubim was put there.

  80. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    A great video by a Messianic Rabbi with a wonderful explanation of the meaning of the Gentile times and further evidence that we are in the end of the Gentile Times
    https://youtu.be/RBXD9xEowZ8

  81. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    Intersting information on Gentile Times found at AvoidJw website:

    https://avoidjw.org/en/holy-bible/the-gentile-times/2/

  82. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    I missed the first Scripture in my preceding post Luke 21:24

  83. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
    This is the only place in Scriptures where the phrase times of the Gentiles occurs. this prophecy occurs after giving his prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. Jesus alluded to the destruction of Jerusalem when he gave the real life illustration of the fig tree.
    Mathew 21:18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered. Why did he wither the fig tree? In the Bible the fig tree is representative of the nation of Israel. That nation had ceased to bear fruit, just as that literal fig tree had ceased to bear fruit. Jesus often used illustrations as teaching methods. So we see that the fig tree, the nation of Israel was withered and fruitless.
    Not long afterward notice what he says:
    Mathew 24:32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
    So when will the Gentile times end? We see the beginnings happening today, the fig tree is sprouting leaves! The Israelites are returning to their homeland against all odds! But they have not yet said \”Blessed is he who comes in Gods name\”. They have not yet recognized Christ but remain hard hearted. So in my view the Gentile times cannot end until that nation is restored as prophesied in Isaiah, Ezekiel and Hosea.
    The nation of Israel is still threatened by the nations, but we see that they have indeed become an independent State, capable of defending itself as proved in the six day war!
    Rather than relying on dates since Christ told us that no one knows the day of the hour, in my view we should be watching that fig tree. Prophecy is being fulfilled before our eyes. The Gentile times are ending, but not yet ended. Soon will come the attack against Israel. The nations will be drawn into that great tribulation. Those who support Israel and those who oppose Israel. God, through his King Christ Jesus will rescue Israel Israel from complete destruction and they will come to know that Jesus is truly the Messiah. Christ will set up his Kingdom under the ruler ship of spiritual Israel, those who rule as Kings and Priests along side of that King.
    This is at least my view of things based on my current understanding of Scripture and prophecy. Others may view it differently but in short I have to agree with you Sister Jacqueline though my reasoning may be different. 1914 dating has been proven to be misunderstood. but notice: 1874 Bible Students proclaimed the invisible return of Christ. This is inaccurate based on Scripture, but in 1878, the first Israelite settlement, the first leaf appeared. 1914 was supposed to mark the end of this system and later changed to the end of Gentile times. again a misunderstood date but interestingly it was 1918 that the Balcour declaration occurred, a few more leaves on the olive tree. 1945 the establishment of the Nation of Israel, more leaves. Recently the recognition of Jerusalem as Israel capital by Israels chief supporter and the start of the rebuilding of the temple. More leaves. But the tree has yet to be fully mature and is yet to bear fruit. Only when the Nation of Israel finally recognizes Christ can we say that the Gentile times have ended.

  84. jacqueline says:

    Okay, has anyone thought about the “End of the Gentile Times”? My thought is that this is still going on over Israel and the whole earth. Not ended as we were taught.
    Could it be Armageddon that will end it? The two legs of Iron on the statue mentioned in Daniel 2: are made of Iron, or the remnants of the strong Roman government has not been conquered but broken up.
    First of all, let us look at the Biblical meaning of iron and clay. What does iron denote in the Bible? Well, if you look at Psalm 2:9 and Revelation 2:27, you will see that iron is a symbol of the ruling power. So in terms of the world, iron would denote a civil ruling world power. And what about the clay? If you read Isaiah 64:8 and Jeremiah 18:1-6, you will see that clay in the Bible denotes the people of God, with the Lord Himself being the Potter.

    So what is God telling us through the feet of Nebuchadnezzar’s image? He is telling us that in the last days there would be a mingling of civil power with the religion. But we are not just talking about any church. God gives us even more detail if we look closely. Take a look at the type of clay that is in the feet. It is called “miry clay” in the verses above. Meaning the clay is dirty, muddy clay. Could it mean Religions including Israel are a prominent part of society but the ruling nations and them don’t mix?
    And the Stone will bring an end to them all when Christ set up rulership, his Kingdom?
    Where in the Bible does it say the rulership of Christ is invisible during the thousand years and not returned on earth as his first coming?
    These are just some things I have been thinking about
    Any thoughts?

  85. jacqueline says:

    Travelers, duly noted. I haven’t read your entire post but on the first part. KISS and the simplicity of the doctrine.
    The donkey saw, understood not to proceed and spoke. So the Power of God, his Holy Spirit can help even a dumb animal understand simply if you try to go thru that angel you will die. Now how do you get around this? Tell your rider what you see. Simple and effective.
    Jehovah wants everybody to come to a full knowledge of truth and during Christ visible realm we know ALL will. This indicates that individuals can with Help from God and speaking,digging, listening and reading understand God’s word. That to me is the beauty of the Bible. He can hide and reveal as the situations in our individual lives change. I believe Christ redemption allows us as individuals to understand what we need plus commune with others on their understanding and together we have a nutritious spiritual meal. Some of us go deeper, Christians raising family keep it on their level etc.
    The point is all of us have special revelations from God as like every parent we deal with each child separately. He can deal with billion children at a time, so Great and Poerful He is.
    So that us why this site is here so we can all share our revelations from God through His Spirit and written word.

  86. traveler says:

    Thanks Jacqueline, KISS, yes we’ve heard this many times. But doesn’t it seem strange that even if you break the Bible down to a one page summary, somebody will say it doesn’t have to be that complicated. The concept of KISS suggests you address your audience on a level that they can grasp, keeping the steps of logic within the strength they have to follow the concepts you’re presenting. Now Franz knew that not many with a strong mind are called, or for that matter strong anything. We are among them. These are the ones God is making himself strong with, I won’t bother quoting the scripture. Franz considered himself a minister to the masses in the door to door work, where of course he would meet many potential beginners. As such he needed to present “milk”. However it should be quite clear that he assumed that he would also be called on to reason with those who had long been eating meat. These should easily grasp steps further “up” the path. This is the very reason we have the two volumes of the “Insight on the Scriptures”. Yes the Bible makes it very clear that many of our brothers will only eat vegetables, at least until they receive the increased capacity of the remainder of their inheritance. But does this mean that every expression must be simply “vegetables”? As Paul liked to say, “never may that happen.” Yes we know he wasn’t referring to this subject.

    We assume that there are many reading the post on your site Jacqueline that have decades of Bible study. You’ve mentioned the depth of training of several contributors. If we don’t have the hang of KISS for the audience that they think we should address, they certainly should have the experience to explain the basic foundation of the Bible, as we’ve presented it, to the general population whose head we’ve gone “over”.

    We hate to say it but either KISS or “why you” have been the constant reply to our presentations. This has been the case when we’ve presented in person, or when we’ve posted. It is always a strange thing to see in the eyes, either physically or the mind’s eye, that really they do get it. But they still ask “why you?” How silly it must have sounded to hear Jesus questioned that way. What does the person presenting have to do with your mind when it “sees” logic. Yes we know we are not Jesus and could be wrong about some of the positions we’ve presented. However, we doubt that we could be wrong about all of it. If some of what we are saying is right it is certainly enough to change the reality of anyone who is willing to, reason just a little, (RJAL).

    As far as we can tell most of you left off the avenue of pursuit you once had after many years without satisfactory growth, or as we say distance covered. We also assume since you are still here you have always been honest hearted, wanting to come to know. You’ve known the direction to go for almost as many years, so now you can pursue a relationship of REASON with God yourself, as we suspect you always thought was the case. It now can be done without the blessings of the priest , elder, or guy that lives down the street. We compliment you on your progress. Saying this to you may somehow seem wrong. We compliment you because it is no small step “up” the path, to have your mind set free.

    You, Jacqueline, keep saying “we are free to think now”; more power to you(spirit). All who face towards reason find it is painful at first. It threatens their position some how, or they realize that if they take a “stand”, it will isolate them from family and friends. Of course, the Bible says it will. We’ll admit, having a few thousand or million to associate with is a great draw to overcome. Certainly the “nation” of Israel and those who thought they were Jews did not. Only a few true Jews did so. The true Jew did not ask, “why you?” when presented with a new line of logic. I mean our brother was doing powerful physical things to prove that he was God’s son, and even then the vast majority of people would not reason. Why would these miracles be necessary then? It was to move those living in a nation, who were lost, to again take “up” the path of reason. They had all around them physical proof of God’s past support. You, on other hand do not. What you do have is so many divisions of religious pursuit, that I’m sure it must have to be calculated almost daily to have an accurate count. You must see why those who find reason in the time of the end are given the privilege of walking into the new system without seeing death. That is when you look at the task before you.

    We’ve given you one post, an historic fact, that should be able to free your minds from almost every religious division, the history of the trinity. The witnesses you’ve already seen through.

    Only a fool would not know in advance that all religious pursuits have a certain amount of powerful truth on which they are “built”, doctrine right. The Buddhists , the Muslims, even the worshipers of Satan do or how could they have performed magic. But once you’ve seen that the direction relies on a “leap of faith”, leap without logic, why spend the little life you have trying to continue “down” that path. The point in KISS format is then, why after all the years of Bible study would you still be arguing about basics?

    We’re not saying it’s easy to take a stand, given some of the material that the Bible really does present. If you need scholars of Bible study to back ” up” some of our concepts, (oh how we love the connection with frame of mind the Bible constantly reaffirms), it will not take too much effort to find ones to show you that those of Jesus’ time did not believe that they would leave their God-given home to go to heaven, no matter how many times the translators put it into their new versions of the Bible. In fact, we have some scholars on file.

    We’d love to have talked to Franz as he sat reflecting on the huge amount of work he and his writing team did while tracing out the lines of thought they pursued in the Bible, at least in “light” of the fact that he had been set free from the world of religion. We wish he would have had the time. It’s obvious that he was severely wounded by the actions of the organization, or his effort at writing an exposé showing the weakness in the trains of thought used to promote the door to door work would most certainly have been more towards helping us to move many steps “up” the path of reason. On the other hand, we still have time, brothers and sisters. Really we would rather put it this way, fellow minds, standing beside us, learning from God have time. This is the way the original writings put it and rightly so, “standing beside each other learning from God”. Even Jesus stands beside us when learning from God. Also, even as Adam and Eve did as partners before the fall (no longer standing erect), each standing before God as their head, learning. God being all things to everyone.

    Since we’ve surely “up” set someone, here’s just one more chance to do so, a thought.
    We know that in this system while existing in “slaves form”, women are to be considered a weaker vessel in consideration of their body. We also know that mentally, spiritually, they will do the bulk of the work of directing those whose lives are going to be saved. Yep, you know the prophecies.

    Why would it be fit that women be in a weaker vessel now? Why would it be fit that they carry the bulk of the work of saving lives? Why would it be fit that they are under man’s headship, now?

    If you needed a partner in the garden, would you wish for a weaker one? Doubtful isn’t it. Why did Satan approach Eve first? You can work it out. Yes we know that wasn’t called for, speculation. But if you are really free of sexism, prejudice or ego, look at it in true humility. What advantage would your gift be to you only? How would it raise you above your fellow pursuer, partner? How is it you would not welcome a stronger partner, in gifts, standing beside you before God? For the measure of each one of us added, we are stronger. My partner and I have often reflected on the realization we both have had, that neither of us is half of what we are together. Consider that our connection now is only based on a token of what is to come when love between minds is forever seen clearly. We’re sure Adam found the same thing .Yes Eve peered into areas of thought she should not have. She entertained the idea that God might not be the one to decide right and wrong. She considered that there was a possibility of the unknown, even within God’s mind without maintaining right perspective, given the self-evident truth around her. She should rather have looked elsewhere with the power of mind that she possessed. She should have looked at the nature of the existence she had and the fact that it lead to life. She should have looked elsewhere because much like Satan the Beautiful, she the powerful just fell short. She was deceived. Now Adam was not deceived, but valued his relationship with his partner so highly, he valued it higher than his relationship with God. How strong and deep does that sound to you?

    Adam knew that Eve would die. He knew that taking the fruit he also would die. The depth of his reason was not deep enough to know that God offered on-going existence through right thinking, and that the “mind” of God gave the very gifts in the partner joined to him that he now valued. If Adam truly “understood” he would not have let his frame of mind be changed to hold the values he now held. He would have maintained his stand under God. Hopefully given the same test you will remain.

    Please put away your preconceived notions based on a group within which “no flesh could be saved if the time had not been cut short”, the groups you’ve just left or are in the process of leaving.

    Please, peer into the realty we are in. You’ll find God, gods, the Great adventure, and hopefully yourself, an immortal.

    See we have spared you from some things.

    Sincerely, truly with love and affection, the travelers

    P.S. that’s travelers, not Traveler and wife, we pursue side by side. Your sentiment is noted and appreciated though by my partner and wife.

    Thanks for your comments Traveler and Wife.

  87. jacqueline says:

    Traveler, it is refreshing to hear someone agree you can come to some conclusions. I was beginning to spin from so much discord and in fighting over scripture.
    On Thursday the Spirit helps us to see what Jehovah and Jesus are saying.
    Ted mentioned KISS, keep it simple stupid. Raymond Franz talked about this issue and Warren mentioned how not going beyond the scriptures but listening to God makes for understanding the simplicity of the scriptures. God is not cruel to have us need charts to understand his Divine outline to right this whole situation of sin and death. Hallelujah! We are finally free to think without already made doctrine.
    Thanks for your comments Traveler and Wife.

  88. traveler says:

    1. God was everything to everyone.

    2. Lost approved frame of mind, question of God\’s sovereignty asked. Man becomes legally dead to God.

    3. Jesus is transferred, fulfills the law, crosses back from legally dead to alive, reborn/new creation. Mankind is reconciled to God through these actions, meaning mankind also now has an approach to cross over from death to life. From this point those who cross over are alive to God, even when in the condition of physical death. Jesus becomes king over those who are dead legally and alive legally. Jesus also has the keys to the grave. This is because none can be permanently destroyed until the question of God\’s sovereignty is answered.

    4. All who cross from death to life legally receive the token of adoption, a quantity of holy spirit with its increased mental capacity. This helps us \”see Jesus\”, or in other words understand the truth he reveals.

    5. Armageddon, or I should say just before Jesus returns, seen only by his true followers at which time all those who have crossed over from death to life, both in the grave and living are brought together by the \”out resurrection\”. These are then given the remainder of their inheritance resulting in a full compliment of holy spirit. The resulting increase in mental capacity does away with sin through weakness or lack of understanding. We see clearly now.

    6. Those who did not receive an \”out-resurrection, received a resurrection to judgment. Resurrection means to stand before God, receiving the reward due. They remained under law already judged, dead now both legally and physically.

    7. Satan and his angels are thrown into the abyss.

    8. Jesus shares his inheritance as son of God and calls 144,000 of his brothers out of us the sons of Israel, the true Jews, who followed him to be received in the \”air\” to replace the now deposed \”god of the air\” Satan , as one part inheritors, to be part of the rule of the earth, the new Jerusalem.

    9. The thousand year reign of Jesus begins.

    10. The last test is when the earth has returned to health both physically and spiritually, and is filled with a great number of what we call perfect mankind. Will this large number stand when Satan is released to go misleading the entire inhabited earth? Evidently not. Even though many have seen the old system and the damage that going a-\”way\” from God did will still fall. At the end of this short period of test by Satan, the question of God\’s sovereignty will at last be answered. Satan and his followers and mankind opposed to God will have found no \”way\” to live, and their options will have come to a close. Satan and his followers, those now dead of mankind and in the grave will not have called on Jesus The option of an out resurrection past the need for a grave will no longer be necessary, and will be done away with. Those in this state, dead, will also be destroyed. The concept of the grave will no longer be. Death will no longer be a necessary concept. Everyone now alive will have put on immortality in their relationship with Yahweh. They will all have gained an approved frame of mind that is one with the Father as his son also is. Now in its original form, the kingdom of the reality under Jesus will be handed back to Yahweh\’s Kingdom and Yahweh will again be all things to everyone.

    Framework of overview, based on frame of mind, simple.

    Brothers and Sisters, we have mentioned before that if you don\’t start with a working overview, you will go on learning and learning without ever arriving at an accurate conclusion about anything. This is not difficult. No one of any persuasion that we are aware of, has put forward any overview other than the one we just laid out. God is everything to everyone, relationship of this kind lost with God, end result of all players and information adds up to return of God being everything to everyone again. All of this is based on nothing else, just frame of mind.

  89. jacqueline says:

    Rena, I saw your comment to Christopher on fojw site and we discussed this subject in detail on 12/6/2019 here: https://askjacqueline.life/conference-call-using-just-the-bible-research/ got to the 12/6 posting.
    Now Dave posts his summations in the form of a comment.

    I also wanted to add something I thought about, that the 1st type of death has to be gone or done with before there can be the 2nd death.
    The first death is still reigning supreme right now. There is no need for a second one until this one is done.
    Jesus has the keys to death and hades but this second death seems to be when Jehovah has everything turned back over to him.
    I tried to reason with those that were saying if you lose your crown you go into second death when nobody has a crown until they prove faithful until death and then God chooses. To me, strange teachings cloud the simply stated words of God.

  90. traveler says:

    Dear Jacqueline, you wrote,

    \”He dealt with people one on one in the Bible by Holy Spirit. The Nation of Israel is the one he deals with as a special people as a group. They are his.\”

    You hit it on the head, \”He dealt with people one on one in the Bible by Holy Spirit\”.

    A \”nation\” is just that – an organization or an administration that governs a \”people\”. Individually those who were dealt with by God made up his \”holy people\”, and as such his kingdom of influence, they belonged to God. It is a common mistake to make, as Paul did, that loyalty to an organization or administration is the same as loyalty to God.

    I hope that you are first of all not trying to reason though things using a paraphrased Bible like King James, where in six months the authors tried to understand the original writings, ones we still have, and then put it into their own words. How long have you been doing the same? How fit would you say you are to explain all of it?

    Read Romans carefully. There is no doubt that the \”nation\” of Israel was permanently rejected along with those calling themselves Jews,
    who were in fact not.

    (Romans 9:1-13) 1 I am telling the truth in Christ; I am not lying, since my conscience bears witness with me in holy spirit, 2 that I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were separated as the cursed one from the Christ in behalf of my brothers, my relatives according to the flesh, 4 who, as such, are Israelites, to whom belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises;

    In the original language it says \”of whom the placing the adoption of sons is\” or we might say \”among\” whom the adoption as sons is. Remember that Paul had learned that he was himself was not a Jew, a real Jew in the eyes of God, until he followed Jesus. This is why Paul wrote, \”who really is a Jew\”

    5 to whom the forefathers belong and from whom the Christ [sprang] according to the flesh: God, who is over all, [be] blessed forever. Amen.

    6 However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel”.

    Keep track of the fact that Israel is not the same as the \”nation\” of Israel.

    7Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed.

    The seed by promise, those being guided and under the kingdom influence of Yahweh, compose the \”holy people\”. This also means that \”the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the law and the sacred service and the promises\” did not belong to those Israelites (members of the state of Israel) claiming fleshly connection.

    (Matthew 21:42-44) . . .Jesus said to them: “Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders (nation) rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU ( the old builders) and be given to a nation producing its fruits. 44 Also, the person falling upon this stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.”

    So the kingdom was taken from one \”nation\” and given to another \”nation\”.

    (Luke 20:9-18) . . .Then he started to tell the people this illustration: “A man planted a vineyard and let it out to cultivators, and he traveled abroad for considerable time. 10 But in due season he sent out a slave to the cultivators, that they might give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. The cultivators, however, sent him away empty, after beating him up. 11 But he repeated and sent them a different slave. That one also they beat up and dishonored and sent away empty. 12 Yet again he sent a third; this one also they wounded and threw out. 13 At this the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my son the beloved. Likely they will respect this one.’ 14 When the cultivators caught sight of him they went reasoning with one another, saying, ‘This is the heir; let us kill him, that the inheritance may become ours.’ 15 With that they threw him outside the vineyard and killed him. What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 He will come and destroy these cultivators and will give the vineyard to others.” On hearing [this] they said: “Never may that happen!” 17 But he looked upon them and said: “What, then, does this that is written mean, ‘The stone which the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone’? 18 Everyone falling upon that stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.”

    Romans 9:7 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed.

    Those of the kingdom, the true Jews that followed Jesus.

    The other issue you raised, who goes to heaven, we\’ll go over again soon. In the meantime take another look at:

    (1 Thessalonians 4:15-18) . . .For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord. 18 Consequently keep comforting one another with these words.

    This is a description of the \”out-resurrection\”. Bible translators who lack understanding that the nature of resurrection which has nothing to do with the giving of life, change \”out-resurrection\” from the original tongue to the \”first resurrection\”. No matter how you look at it this resurrection happens to earth, not heaven. It also does not mention going to heaven afterward. This event does however show how and when the 144,000 are separated to meet Jesus, hidden, to meet in the \”air\” to form the new administration of earth, New Jerusalem.

  91. jacqueline says:

    Didn’t notice the slashes. I asked and thought Greg could write an article for the fojw site to help some of the men coming. Here also thought he could write. I was told any articles would have to be approved by a committee of men and that didn’t set well with me. I couldn’t even tell Greg because I knew it would hurt and that he had jumped in the fire. I said no, we can’t be enslaved again. But God needed me to understand and see it is Russell’s teaching and those like him that is wrong. To get away from the date setters in defiance of Christ who said as Christopher stated, no one knows the day or hour! To see so many different thoughts on here that shows God has not changed. He dealt with people one on one in the Bible by Holy Spirit. The Nation of Israel is the one he deals with as a special people as a group. They are his.
    Tell me what do you think about Rev.7:4-8? I see not a contrast with one number being big and 144,000 being small. I see him saying of all the tribes of Israel as contrasted to “from every nation.” Then I see him saying secondly, it is going to be 12,000 from each tribe and to further emphasize Israel, these are the twelve tribes I will get them from. Three things. He did not say the twelve tribes we see in the Bible ( list isn’t the same every where) but all of those tribes mentioned existed and only he knows what tribe those Jews came from.
    I can be wrong but we can be spiritual Jews but not be from the tribes of Israel. I think this is a special Bride group and others, spiritual Jews etc can go to heaven because we see attendees at the marriage and a temple class. I think only Jews make up that Special Bride. Thoughts please and flaws in my reasoning.

  92. traveler says:

    We apologize for the slash marks. They seem to be added after we hit post.

  93. traveler says:

    As we walked along the bay today, I and my fellow pursuer, partner and wife, talked about your reference to us using our brain cells to look at the Bible in a different way. It seems strange that so many think of themselves as \”foot step followers\” of Jesus . Yet if you ask them the \”steps\” to reason and how they apply to the truth Jesus revealed, they just don\’t have an answer. When you step out of the framework of man and try to reason for yourself using the Bible, it may seem that everything is new, when in reality you are just finally doing what everyone else in the Bible had to do before they could stand erect. You no longer bow to mankind, letting them decide right and wrong. You no longer bow to Jesus as the great teacher, there is only one that is \”great\”, Yahweh. You will have a chance going this way to bend a knee in appreciation for the service Jesus your brother and king, is and has rendered to you that secured his new name as the \”amen\”, that\’s true. Realize that the point of the Bible\’s writing and of Jesus is just to help you return to and approved frame of mind. One in frame of mind as Jesus is one with Yahweh , as Father , great teacher, and King. This is so that all is as it was before we lost our approved \”frame\” of mind.

    Are you a foot step follower of Jesus?

    (Romans 12:1). . . Consequently I entreat YOU by the compassions of God, brothers, to present YOUR bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason.

    It has been our experience that when asked, most people do not know the steps to deliberately carry on a rational train of consideration. These steps of reason are necessary to understand conceptual information that is foreign, or in other cases so similar to already considered information, where a wrong or unconstructive conclusion may have been reached, (theory of the trinity) that it is obviously important that reconsideration be rational and carried out in very careful steps of logic.

    Becoming a \”footstep follower\” is the process of setting your paths straight (held considerations), and standing erect to serve Yahweh with your powers of reason. We feel the need to emphasize this concept of footstep follower because the whole process of returning to a healthful \”way\” of thinking, or Yahweh’s \”way\” of thinking, is related to making our minds over.

    When the term disciple is used, it refers to a person trained in this practice of reasoning, according to Christ’s WAY of thinking, who has taken up the practice of this process of reasoning. A disciple is a person who draws closer to Yahweh’s frame of mind through reason, sees or comes to know and then follows the direction or action indicated by the information revealed by Jesus. He has been orally taught, has received the spirit of understanding and is now a \”taught one\” of Yahweh through this gift.

    These are just pulled thoughts from past considerations. We figure that if we keep bringing \”up\”, up, the process of making our minds over will eventually start to remain within the considerations of the minds we are pursuing with, our brothers and sisters. Making you minds over is not a matter guessing of passive action. We know the nature of the transfer of God\’s son\’s life force to earth to be born as a man, so we know our nature as mankind. We know that the logic of retained identity would logically be retained in the grave. We then see the nature of the individual, having life in the condition of death, without consciousness. We then also see how with the addition of a new body and its brain, Yahweh can restore thoughts previously had to our life force with its identity retained now in a new body and able to receive the implanting of these thoughts, remembered by Yahweh. Through the Bible\’s explanation of the process of transfer, we understand the process of an \”out- resurrection\” compared to a resurrection to judgment. We have the \”hope\” of the resurrection because we under-stand, not because somebody says we are going to get it. Jesus was the physical proof of the promises.

    When we look at the Bible I and my partner don\’t see original thinking on our part, because so many have already followed Jesus, and some of them were able to write and be heard in the format of what we call the Bible. But there is no mistaking the fact that the \”path\”, the \”way\” was pursued long before the Bible, and will continue to be by us long after this writing we call the Bible. Who knows, maybe you will be a writer in the next \”Bible\”. Each step of reason taken in the Bible is simple. From each step taken, direction is perceived; in other words, you get a sense of where to go to look for new direction. We\’ve all heard the phrase \”make sense of it\”. some day soon we\’ll post the consideration \”Steps to Reason\”. We just wanted to let you know that we owe you one for a nice walk during which we had, as it was said in the last Samurai, \”a good conversation\”. Yes we watch movies too.

  94. jacqueline says:

    Traveler now your last paragraphs (No Beginning) are an example of how people have stuff to say also other than what a man or group of a few isolated men say. I got to go over those paragraphs again. You are using your brains cells to think and reason. Thanks
    I want to let you know you answered 2 questions without knowing there was a discussion going on.
    Trinity, you gave the origin and the “Gifts”, which I won’t comment on here because that is Dave’s format on Thursday night. https://askjacqueline.life/conference-call-using-just-the-bible-research/.
    This is the new network that we are using on Thursday: https://askjacqueline.life/freeconferencecall/

  95. traveler says:

    Thanks Jacqueline for the quick answer. We too know the effects of stress from trying to deal with an organization. My wife and I talked about the effect that the friends site must surly be having on you as we watched you reason and use diplomacy to cover the rest. I get it now, your site that is. We have not been to a meeting/church for three years. Each time we try to share what we’ve found in the Bible people immediately become upset. It seems people have a tendency to take the knowledge they have as personal power/ personal image trying to raise themselves above the rest in some way. I believe it is mainly a desire to feel unique . Even when you acknowledge some truth they have as right, it doesn’t go far in cultivating a relationship with them when we point out logically that the facts they have don’t add up to the conclusions they’ve drawn. It seems that the statement “the truth will set you free” can never be fully realized until it happens. You find yourself outside not only all organizations and denominations, but outside almost all relationships. You see how important the connection of brothers through time is as you realize you know the experience they had and that you would recognize their minds immediately when they start to explain themselves.

    (Romans 14:1-4) . . .Welcome the [man] having weaknesses in [his] faith, but not to make decisions on inward questionings. 2 One [man] has faith to eat everything, but the [man] who is weak eats vegetables. 3 Let the one eating not look down on the one not eating, and let the one not eating not judge the one eating, for God has welcomed that one. 4 Who are you to judge the house servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Yahweh can make him stand.

    The problem is that all denominations teach loyalty to the organization as loyalty to God, not realizing that even if they could serve as a provision from God they would be doing it temporarily . In this time of the end the effect is that they cause everyone associating with them to become blind and deaf at some point. They do this by forbidding them to progress up the path of reason past doctrine. They say it would be a stand against God. Really they just want everyone to worship them, which is what it means to allow someone else to decide right and wrong for you. I seldom forget conceptual information when it relates to frame of mind. The Bible is a book written to document frame of mind, God’s, angels’, and mankind’s. Every reference the Bible makes to the history of God, angels, or man relates to frame of mind. If you don’t get that mankind lost his approved frame of mind and must regain it to find life again you miss our connection to God. Becoming an expert on any facet of the Bible, be it the tongues, the people, or the land will never give you insight into what the Bible is really about, what the Bible is really trying to give you.

    What is it all about? How many people have any idea what it, the realities are all about. Within the “theory of the trinity” God is all knowing, created everything to serve his will, and cannot be wrong, even though he has to send himself to earth to straighten out what appears to be wrong. Of course since everything serves his will that cannot be, wrong. The best it could be is God entertaining himself. Within the “theory of the trinity” there can be no “question” because God knows all and cannot be wrong. So if all the suffering from sickness, war, and accident are part of this entertainment, who that is rational would serve him. Would this mass murderer make anyone want to be a “friend of God”. I know that we wrote and posted an overview on the Friends site of what actually is happening in our realty from the beginning of the path to the end of the thousand years, but maybe you missed seeing it. If you lay a foundation it must begin with the concept that the building is to be built “up” on; the blue prints if you like. Don’t you find it intriguing that during the time of Jesus and the apostles the truth was simply explained to the honest hearted and then they explained it to the next person. The apostles saw that the wolves would come in and mislead the majority, making sure that there was no clear path known so that others would become dependent on those viewed as having a fuller grasp of the truth. The “nation” of Israel did the same thing. One of there main objections to Jesus and his followers was that they were not educated. When the end was to come the truth was prophesied to become abundant again. Knowing this, Satan’s response is the information age where there is so much information that surely no one can be right, given the next new research. Satan has already set it up so that “faith” basically means holding onto emotion when challenged with reason. Faith no longer needs the proof of logic only loyalty to this organization or that person’s ideas.

    Because you evidently have taken up an honest hearted child like approach to God and the truth, you have been freed from not only the organization, but from the theory of the trinity. This means you have also been freed from all religious pursuits that are called Christian on earth. Be freed from the rest. NO, not forsaking those eating vegetables but progressing “up” the path, so that you, such a talented person, can help them to be free too. Take up the pursuit of Truth, stand erect.

    (Luke 21:25-28) . . .“Also, there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and [its] agitation, 26 while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But as these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift YOUR heads up, because YOUR deliverance is getting near.”

    (Ecclesiastes 3:15) What has happened to be, it had already been, and what is to come to be has already proved to be; and the [true] God himself keeps seeking that which is pursued

    Realize that God, Yahweh, must and is pursuing truth. Become his friend by knowing him and his “way”. Build Faith through “under-standing” that God has freed your will by showing with humility that He has no beginning; in other words, He does not know how He came to be. Yahweh is still God, and it is only with the help of a being so much higher than us in intellect and power that we can put on immortality so as to pursue with him, as a friend.

    Below is a part of a past consideration written by us.

    NO BEGINNING

    By reason and logic we can see that Yahweh could have no explanation for his beginning because this would require that something or someone would have to exist or have existence before him, to show or explain to him what this beginning was. Basic logic tells us that you cannot be aware before you are aware. Yahweh confirmed this when he stated the conditions He found himself in at Isaiah 43:10:

    (Isaiah 43:10) “YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Yahweh, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.

    This statement of conditions in Isaiah 43:10 showed the rational mind the possibility of something else outside of God; not the fact, but the possibility. This statement also allowed us to separated our will from his overall reality or will, thus giving us choice outside of his will, or what we call free will. The fruit of the tree in the middle of the Garden of Eden only represented the statement that we give Yahweh the right to decide right and wrong; it could not have given freedom from his will. The computer is given choices and the ability to make them, but it is not free from our will. There are other conditions that God exists and is bound within, and these will be mentioned later as they relate to each consideration.

    The Bible’s explanation of our beginning (Ge 1:1) together with visible creative works shows proof of a creator. The importance of the realization that God has no beginning is that it shows us the nature of our relationship to him. When you add the statement at (Ec 3:15) that we must pursue that which he also pursues, truth, you can see that there is a stand to be taken and if you “under-stand” it will be under your friend, Yahweh.

    We appreciate that you’ve given us space to post and we’ll try to do it in such a way that it takes as little of you time as possible.

  96. jacqueline says:

    Traveler, all answering on the friends site are people I interacted with and they have carried on. We have a lot of readers on this site like the fojw site but they never respond or say anything. They have that freedom. This site is different than the fojw site. It teaches doctrine and to comment on it I have to stay within the teachings of Russell whether I believe it or not, so I parted ways.
    Many had left before me because it really isn’t a friends of JW site as it is censored heavily. This site let’s others post their comments and thoughts for others to see a different view but we don’t point you to any religion but encourage you to do research yourself. We are in the process of posting some research done by others that once associated with Bible Students and witnesses. The Thursday night and Saturday call in is hosted on this site. We really don’t have an agenda but let all talk.
    I personally can’t respond to every point in a comment but leave it for others to ponder. Our little group received so much adversity when I left fojw site my health was affected adversely. Never had those types of attacks when leaving the witnesses so I am recovering but still active.
    The fojw site will engage you if you post. I know all posters personally and they have the time for a great discussion. We are not persuasive here. Just post and listen. I ask e-mailers and phone callers to me to post on the site so all can discuss and because I am recovering from a stress induced stroke according to my health team. Others on here are suffering challenges all of a sudden together. Very odd, but we overcome each challenge thrown at us and keep pushing. Take care.

  97. traveler says:

    I tell you the truth Jacqueline I am totally mystified by this site. I see that something is going on behind the scene. I haven\’t figured out how there is an interaction on the site between posts and those seeking answers, as on the friends of JW\’s we met on. I assumed people looking to find answers would be returning and interacting directly.

  98. jacqueline says:

    Traveler, I will call her and tell her to come read. She actually came on Thursday and presented this for us to discuss on Thursday Bible Study. We will discuss then.
    Right now we are on free conference calling for testimony meeting. I will tell her here if she pops on. Thank you for answering her. Now you got the hang of it. We answer any question that pops up or comment on thoughts.😅❤😁

  99. traveler says:

    Hi friend in Christ. We’ve posted our bit in considering holy spirit under “thoughts from a traveler”. We hope you at least find some of what you are asking for.

  100. Friend in Christ says:

    Hi Jacqueline or anyone with an answer:
    Do you have any information on the gifts of the Spirit?
    Like speaking in tongues. I know JW believe these gifts are not active anymore. Thank you

  101. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    I came across this on Facebook from a Messianic Jewish scholar. I found it intersting and to me it makes sense:
    What was the Mark of the Beast?
    By Dr. Eli Lizorkin-Eyzenberg – February 14, 201832352 399
    In the Book of Revelation, we read about the arrival of the Beast – the enemy of God’s people. During this period, Christ-followers will be excluded from participation in the local economy unless they agree to place upon their head and hand the mark of the Beast (Rev. 13:16-18). But what is the exact nature of the mark?

    To understand the true meaning of the mark of the beast, something must be kept in mind – The Book of Revelation is a Jewish, anti-Roman document. Once we realize that, we need to remember that the central Jewish Torah text that was recited twice daily stated, “‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one.” It had another, less famous, but an integral part: “Bind them (God’s commandments) as a sign on your hand and they will be on your forehead.” (Deut. 6:4-8) Jewish people, both today and in antiquity, fulfill this commandment by literally tying the words of the Living God found in Torah to their hand and head almost every day of the week. This Practice is called, “the laying on of a tefillin.”

    If the Book of Revelation is read with an awareness of the first-century Jewish context, it becomes clear that we should not imagine that one day the entire world will undergo a medical procedure that will insert a chip under the human skin (as some Bible teachers speculate). Instead, we should understand the mark of the beast to be an inward or outward expression that opposes the Law of God in the life of a human being. As the enemy of God and His people, the evil Beast would naturally want to replace the mark of God that goes on the hand and head of the worshiper with his own mark.
    https://weekly.israelbiblecenter.com

  102. Ted R. Bible Student says:

    You have my permission on anything i post. I hope to be on Thursday.

  103. jacqueline says:

    Marjo, I too realize now how uninformed I was on what it really meant to be about Christ Jesus. These “so-called worldly people” had more knowledge about Christ and his redeeming us than any governing body members, me or the watchtower.
    We were always studying a book or watchtower or referencing a watchtower for my entire 70 years of life. We had the governing body and before that the faithful servant or slave, everybody but Christ Jesus first. Wow, what a ride we have been on.
    I have nothing against books so that is why I am going to do the 66 and some other holy writings I know about before studying whole volumes written by men.
    Last night I went to sleep listening to Acts and realized as clear understanding was coming in my mind, that I needed to stop and check out these first few verses carefully. It is so much contained in the Bible that you don’t really need books, Holy Spirit helps you. An individual relationship with God is what we never had only an organization or book relationship.

  104. Dave says:

    Response to Bro. Ted:
    These are all interesting observations and questions.
    As you know from our Thursday night meeting, as students of the Bible we MUST take EXTREME CARE not to answer or form opinions about questions like these without Scriptural support.
    I totally understand your situation (better than anyone else you know), so I’d like to ask your permission to use your post as a topic of discussion for our Thursday night meeting on 11/29 (I’m assuming our group will vote to NOT have a meeting on 11/22)
    AND
    will give our group a chance to prepare, instead of just springing these questions on them.

    Also, every question humans can come up with MAY not have Scriptural answers.
    What should that mean to us, if we cannot find Scriptural answers to our question?

  105. Greg says:

    My dear brother and friend, Ted,

    Thank you so much for expressing yourself here. I can only imagine how many other wonderful gems you could share if you had greater ease of access and freeness of speech on Saturday nights. Thank you so much for sharing these beautiful expressions with us here!

    Warmly and sincerely,
    -greg

  106. Ted R. (Bible Student) says:

    Regarding this topic of second death I have some thoughts. First, lets look at the Scriptures quoted above in Revelation. When do these take place? When do Death and Hades get destroyed? When is Satan, the False Prophet, and the Wild Beast get destroyed? When does God judge those whose name is written in the Book of Life? We know Satan is not completely destroyed until the end of the thousand years. Death and the grave is not destroyed until the end of the thousand years when God grants everlasting life to the faithful after the little season. It stands to reason that second death does not come into place until after the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous which does not occur until sometime after Christ takes up his throne and begins his judgment day. When we read in other parts in the Bible that talks about no forgiveness for those who sin against Holy Spirit, who determines that? Are we to judge? Can we presume to speak for God? Our JW cousins seem to do that but should we fall into that same trap? Unless a person completely rejects Christ after knowing him and turns to evil, why would anyone be in danger of the second death? Satan is misleading the entire earth, often becoming an Angel of Light! Scriptures provide a warning to us but it is only Jehovah and his Son that exercise the final judgment. Only they know whose name is written in the Book of Life. It is not up to us to speculate or render judgment. Jehovah is our merciful Father. If we are truly desiring to serve him he see’s that. He knows are hearts! Righteousness and salvation does not depend on doctrine, it depends our sincere desire to serve the Lord with our whole heart, soul and mind. Serving him in Truth,from our innermost hear, not hypocritically. When we read the example of Christ in the Gospels and the letters of Paul, everything points to two things, love Jehovah with all our hearts and our neighbor as ourselves. So let us stop arguing or speculating on the second death! That is up to our Lord! If we are serving God to the best of our ability and working out our own salvation, we have no worries. Stop judging that you may not be judged! Lets all just serve our God until the Kingdom when the TRUE knowledge of Jehovah will be revealed!

  107. Marjo says:

    I remember once in field service back then one person told me that you are not following Christ. I feel ashamed for telling him that yes we do. This person was so right all the time. It took me this long to wake up and see this.

    Now we have our faith in Christ so we don’t need JW stuff anymore. We need to hear Christ voice only.

    John 10:27
    My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.

    Also I want to say this to comfort everyone minds that, everyone who believes in Christ will be saved.

    Romans 10:4
    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes,

  108. jacqueline says:

    Marjo, also the governing body believes in the substitution that they are the Jews and the Nation of Israel has been totally abandoned by Jehovah. So Isa. 43:10-12 they claim to be His witnesses and therefore the Jews deal directly with Jehovah not Jesus. So that is why the skip Christ in their equation.
    Many religions believed this when the Jews were not going home as predicted in the Bible but now religions are dropping it because the Jews did become a nation in 1948 as foretold.
    The witnesses are holding on to this old doctrine adopted by Rutherford. I stay away from their site as I know it manipulates with choice words. I decided it wasn’t healthy for me to keep hearing these doctrines, now for 70 years. I am done. lol I am getting so much joy however from just the Bible. Holy Spirit is so powerful.
    I find this page interesting from Barbara Anderson’s site. I was mentioning on Wednesday study that none of the things are new that most of the failed predictions and doctrines were here long before the witness religion founders were born.
    http://watchtowerdocuments.org/gods-divine-plan-of-evil-for-6000-years/#more-4859

  109. Marjo says:

    Yes it is good to see different views, because we don’t know what else happened after that when apostles disappeared or got killed. There is no scripture here to tell us about that. After the time when John wrote Revelations. If there was Romans must have burn them all.

    I have to say when I read that letter, I felt uncomfortable about it. Uncomfortable because I know that Bible is all about Yeshua.

  110. jacqueline says:

    No, I didn’t see this on jw.org because I never go to their site Marjo thank you for sending this for everyone to see.
    Also on your comment above about the second death. See how you just reasoned it out. I try to do the same without adding to the text all the other assumptions I have been taught.
    Others, however, do see second death now according to the long-held teachings and that is okay. Maybe the view of second death being open before judgment day is true, what really matters is we can discuss it without someone saying what an organization or men teach on the subject and insisting we have to conform or risk some kind of df or shunning. We can disagree and know it is not a salvation issue that God and Jesus got this! But it is only human to think on these matters.

    PS: I had a Psychotherapy session last night (Saturday) from 7 pm until 9 pm, so I wasn’t able to get on either. I caught just the tail end of the testimony meeting. Later this week let’s think of getting together on the BBB while it is a decent hour in Finland.
    I will see what my schedule is for that.

  111. Marjo says:

    Did you see the latest letter from GB in JW site? It seems that they are totally forgetting Yeshua ( Jesus) and replacing Yahweh as the grand instructor. I can not believe this. How can these people be so blind?

    https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/reading-and-teaching/governing-body-letter/

  112. Marjo says:

    Dear sister Jacqueline

    When these people are saying like this they are very wrong. Then they don’t fully understand the Book of Revelation at all. I don’t either, but I’m getting there little by little with the help of Holy Spirit.

    They are saying that second death is now here. There are still events in the Revelation that hasn’t happen. Whore riding in the beast has not been destroyed yet or the beast. Satan hasn’t been chained yet, he is still out there hunting people.

    When 1000 years has begun then Satan is being chained. When 1000 years is over Satan will be lose for a while and after that and the door to second death will open. We don’t need to worry. It is not here yet.

    p.s I wanted to come online last night, but I was too tired because of the trip we made to another town. Take good care of yourselves.

    – Marjo

  113. jacqueline says:

    Marjo thanks so much for your comment. Second Death is surely in the Bible and it is the final judgment. The reason the discussion came up is because some were saying there is second death now for humans. Like at armageddon (JW) even if you never heard about Jesus. Like if you are consecrated but fail as a sinner to follow Jesus that you go into second death. That if you don’t accept teachings but forth by a man or group of men, it is sinning against the Holy Spirit and you go into second death.
    As you stated the Bible clearly says who goes into second death in the scriptures at the top of this article.
    I don’t worry about it on a personal level for I know my father and how he loves all of his children and will have done everything possible to save them. They will have to be incorrigible and unsavable. That is what I concentrate on. Satan hasn’t responded in all these years!
    1Tim 2:4: ” who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.” NIV

    PS: Marjo I won’t be able to come on tonight except through listen-only as I took on a therapy session that begins at 7:30- 9:30 pm my time but hopefully my Bluetooth will let me listen.

  114. Marjo says:

    Hello dear brothers and sisters!

    I really had to take a deep study on this second death topic before saying anything to it. I was reading Revelation 21:8. When you begin to follow Yeshua you can not have unholy habits. You can not be a slave of two masters. You are either a slave of habits that are listed there or the slave of God. You can not be both. You can not be anything of those that are listed in Revelation 21:8. If you want to be God’s servant you have to be clean. For example, you can not be a witch and be God’s servant same time. No, you must abandon for being a witch and after that you can serve God. If you don’t do that you might belong to the group who goes to second death. Second death means that there is no resurrection. After that death is eternal. There is only a resurrection in a first death. I don’t mean to offend anyone with this but that is what Bible say.

    But if someone judges you in religious group when you don’t obey their rules like: you are doomed in second death. They are wrong. They don’t know what is in your heart at the moment. God knows who you are. You have time to make your choice for being a God’s servant as long as you live. God is the only one who is making the last judgement not us humans.

    Wishing you all the best in Christ!
    – Marjo

  115. jacqueline says:

    Kent Shalom, I appreciate your sincere belief in this but I now have to accept the Bible support scriptures. These are long-held beliefs by some but the Bible should say directly something as serious as this don’t you think. For instance, this statement, let’s break it down with the scripture.
    “If he sins very seriously and knowingly willingly goes against God and his truth he risks second death.

    He has only two outcomes of life in heaven as one of the 144 000 or one of the great company or second death that’s how it is.

    There is only one Christian hope and that is the same hope Jesus had and that the apostles had.”
    For the audience sake where is this in the Bible or a link perhaps to an article that contains the scriptural support, because I know you are busy.

    My support, for instance, is the talk presented here with all the scriptures. Do you know of a talk where this doctrine is explained that you only have the two choices or second death for Christians? I don’t say consecrated Christians because it denotes that there is a superiority.
    I never accepted this simple statement but with no scriptural support.

    I invite the persons looking on to listen to the talk from Bob Carnegie and he gives scriptures and explains them to see if they make sense.

    Kent I do respect your sincere right to hold to this belief and perhaps many others do.
    Isn’t it nice we can talk openly here without a shutdown or shunning?
    I hope others will jump in also to tell us what they see. Hopefully, the statements will have some scriptures as we are training our minds to not say it is hot because we were told but because the Bible says it is hot. lol

    BTW, Kent you can approve your comment without it being held in moderation. I wish this program would let comments post immediately.

  116. jacqueline says:

    Oh okay, I remember the JW reasoning on how do you know if you have sinned against the Holy Spirit. If I have to have a fear like that it would take away from my warmth toward God. Replace hellfire with fear of second death. Feels good to be able to see what the Bible actually say. Thanks.

  117. Kent says:

    Dear sister Jacqueline

    My story of the man that stood outside the convention was to give an illustration of the fact that if someone has true love for God and a desire to serve him, he has in my mind and in my friends mind not sinned against the holy spirit severely, if he would have done that, he would not have any sort of desire to serve God.

    In Christ
    Kent

  118. Kent says:

    Shalom sister Jacqueline

    First I want to say that there is a difference between Hitler and an enlightened True christian one of the called ones.

    Hitler was never given any enlightenment from God in the scriptures. He was not given a new birth to a heavenly hope with the gift of Jesus ransom sacrifice.

    I am fully aware of what a horrible person he was, but God is the judge not us.

    A christian given these things have only two outcomes either he make it as one of the 144 000 (rev 14) or he loses his crown and
    according to rev 7; 9-17 he joins the great company and have the hope of serving God day and night in the temple before the throne.

    He has not the chance of choosing between life on earth and life in heaven, because he has sacrificed his right to live on earth forever when he consecrated to serve God forever as potentially being one of the 144 000.

    If he sins very seriously and knowingly willingly goes against God and his truth he risks second death.

    He has only two outcomes life in heaven as one of the 144 000 or one of the great company or second death that’s how it is.

    There is only one christian hope and that is the same hope Jesus had and that the apostles had.

    The word christian means to be anointed and that means to be immersed with God’s spirit in to his body the church of the 144 000.

    All else have the hope of being blessed by Jesus and his bride.

    Isaiah 9 wonderfully describes Jesus rule like this:

    For to us a child is born, to us a son is given,
    and the government will be on his shoulders.
    And he will be called Wonderful Counselor,
    Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

    Cristian love
    Kent

  119. jacqueline says:

    Kent, perhaps we can ask the crowd to join in on this. It is a subject that is used by some religions to keep people in line, I feel. What we are trying to do is go by what the Bible clearly teaches and say, so that is why I ask for scriptures.

    (1) Where is the scriptural basis for this statement? “My thought was that there is a point when a truly anointed born-again Christian that has tasted the truth of Gods word can become so deviated from the truth and if that person keeps sinning against holy spirit and against God he risks to go into second death.” But what about Hitler? A Christian loses his way but Mussolini, all the serial killers get resurrection?
    Just letting my brain ask if this makes sense.

    (2)Why would a man want to worship with the witnesses if they DF him and said second death?
    “The man said “I have been doomed to second death with no chance to come back, (disfellowshipped for apostasy)”.

    My father was df in 1958 for taking a blood transfusion. They came to him in 1959 telling him he could come back before he died of his cancer. He refused and said he wanted to die with God knowing he didn’t follow man.
    They told 9 children and my mother that he went into second death and my 75-year-old brother still believe this because they said he died in a df state from their organization. So I ask Apostasy against whom? Isn’t that for God? I never believed God hated my daddy.

    Man makes up a lot more control features just like hellfire. That is why I am now trying to go by what the Bible clearly teaches and not beyond.
    I personally do not believe in Second death now before the thousand years rather after it is over.
    As we discussed in detail last night this scripture has a time period- after the first resurrection.

    Rev 20:6 “Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years”. Doesn’t seem they were to worry about 2nd death before their resurrection because maybe it was future, held in God’s hand after Christ finishes his work? During judgment day, the little season. I am all now are under Adamic death according to what I see the Bible saying. Just flexing my brain here.

    Rev 20:9 “They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
    “Tormented”-given the severest, harshest sentence forever never to return again, Notice they are in the “little season” where they were perfect and defied JEHOVAH GOD.
    God really tells you who goes into the second death. Religious men make up stuff to try and put a scare so you will follow their doctrine.

    I like discussing it openly here on the site because it is for all of us to benefit, I have settled my heart on the issue, but a discussion is good for us on such a serious subject since we have been told we could be liable for not accepting doctrines or thoughts of prominent men.
    Dave moderated a discussion on this subject last night and here is his summary. Perhaps he or the “crowd has something to say also”
    https://askjacqueline.life/conference-call-using-just-the-bible-research/

    Take care Kent and Thank you so much for correcting the name on BBB, we noticed.

  120. Kent says:

    Hi Jacqueline
    What seems to be the issue here is the fear of second death. I did not mean the the brethren go into second death just because the persecute their brethren. My thought was that there is a point when a truly anointed born again christian that have tasted the truth of Gods word can become so deviated from the truth and if that person keeps sinning against holy spirit and against God he risks to go into second death.

    We can not judge these things only god can we can only see the outer signs like hate towards God and his word and his people, serious willing sins and no tendency to be regretful.

    Again we shall never threaten anyone with second death that is very serious and we shall let God judge.

    Jesus said to Satan may God rebuke you satan.

    Another thing wy shall we let other scare us with second death.

    I remember my old JW friend that was baptized 1937 and lived until he was 99 he once told me a story about a JW brother standing outside a convention with a pamphlet or something against JW.

    He walked over to this man and asked him why he did not come in and join the convention?

    The man said “I have been doomed to second death with no chance to come back, (disfellowshipped for apostasy)”.

    My friend said ok I hear what you say.

    Do you want to come in and worship with us?

    The man said of course I want to.

    My friend said you see I understand you have not sinned against holy spirit beyond hope, because you love God and wants to worship him with the brethren,

    A person that has sinned seriously against holy spirit beyond repentance does not love God anymore neither does he want to worship him with the brethren. He does not regret anything. Despite this we can not judge him only God can.

    Jacqueline lets talk more about this tomorrow.

    Christian love
    Kent

  121. Marjo says:

    Thank you my sister! I just realized myself too how being in JW religion they have made shadows front of our eyes not to see the truth in the Bible with their books and magazines. Now I’ve been reading letters over and over again the light is more clear than it was 10 years ago. Now I have my project to find Bible verses that support the fact that Yeshua (Jesus) is not a God himself but he is a son of God. I learned another truth about Jesus name in the Bible history also. His name wasnt always written as Jesus. In the oldest Bible it was Iezus came from Zeus. Chocking isn’t it? That’s why I would rather use Yeshua.

  122. jacqueline says:

    Hi Marjo, you know I have been doing a lot of contemplation on whether I am going to get the courage to listen carefully to him. My son is so upset that he now realizes he wasn’t really taught what was really in the Bible or told other important things about the Bible. It was a topical study geared to teach unique doctrine and selected scriptures over and over again. I had to agree and apologize that I too had been fooled. He clearly told us about false Christs or saviors that would say he has come and deceived many people and I am one of them.

    Matt. 24 4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
    The religion I have associated myself with all my life til now said Christ is out there but invisible. This scripture tells us pointedly not to follow men who would be around during those beginnings saying Christ has returned but he is out there where you can’t see him, it is an invisible presence. Read this carefully and see what you think. And they have foretold the end of the world many times. This in direct defiance of Jesus who said no man knows the day or the hour. They are smarter than him and can figure it out I guess.

    Matt 24: 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.

    I am going to get away completely from these types of religions. I learn so much from listening and sharing what other men are sharing from scripture, it rounds out my knowledge, instead of being lead to just waiting to make my calling sure, studying over and over again the words of one man or a few. I have prayed over this and feel his approval that I am finally learning and listening to him.
    Thursday night, Marjo, we feel Holy Spirit helping us to understand the scriptures and bring up more to our minds as we go on. We learn more from all those 66 books than all the books we have been plowing thru all my life.
    Books, 66 of them have been with us all the time and they have been approved and stamped by God himself and Jesus. How could I have been so deceived for so long and went right back into it after escaping?
    For now, I am going to go where the Spirit is with the Thursday night, Bible only studies, and trust him.
    The internet allows us to talk to other Christians about scripture and I think it is what Daniel was talking about, the reason he told Daniel not to worry. There is more knowledge found and less persecution from Papacy if you think on your own. But brothers try to stop you from thinking even now, but I am branching out, walking away. I enjoy talking to you and others about scriptures using the 66 books. Getting more than one view. I have learned a lot from the 70 years of BOOK studies but now I can branch out and learn from the 66 books.
    You were so brave to get away and get in touch directly with God. I can see the blessedness from your speech. You have given me courage when you said you got into the Bible over this last year.

  123. Marjo says:

    I don’t believe this term anointed either. There is a group called sealed. I don’t even know where JW got this word anointed from. I don’t like it at all how they twist words.

  124. jacqueline says:

    Marjo, I can see what you are saying about the sealing being the Holy Spirit. I have never believed in special people being special “Anointed”.
    I think none of us have made it so as to say others go into second death or the great crowd now because of what Paul said, that he hadn’t made it.
    Philippians 3:10-20 New International Version (NIV)
    10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

    12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

    Following Paul’s Example
    15 All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

    Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

  125. Marjo says:

    Hello Kent and Jackie!

    When I have been reading letters I noticed that some verses are linked to the book of Revelation even tho they are not marked as cross references. In Ephesians 4:30 And do not make God’s Holy Spirit sad; for the Spirit is God’s mark of ownership on you, a guarantee that the Day will come when God will set you free.

    Paul is talking about Gods seal. If I’ve understood this right, Gods seal is Holy Spirit. Revelation 7:3 is talking about this sealing: “Don’t harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the servants of our God on their foreheads.”
    Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of the sealed: 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the Israelites.

    My thought of this is that this 144 000 could be this great group which John saw. Could fist church and apostles belong to this group?

    Paul is talking that he belongs to tribe of Benjamin in Philippinians 3:5
    circumcised the eighth day; of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; regarding the law, a Pharisee;

    Revelation 7:8
    12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 sealed from the tribe of Benjamin.

  126. jacqueline says:

    Kent, I am asking these questions to stimulate if these teachings are actually in the Bible or are just doctrines of men. If it is a certain church doctrine it is okay for them to believe this but if it isn’t actually taught by Jehovah God or Jesus then others don’t have to accept it but can still fellowship in love. We all have stuff we believe but others don’t see or we can think out loud.
    All of this helps us to heal and get our brains to moving again.

    Point #2, “Mercy Class”. Where is this mentioned in the Bible? I have heard of it but it is a made up expression and comes from types and anti-types which I see in the Bible but not everything is a type some of it is made up to support the superiority of the “consecrated class”, which really are all Christians who at death only are declared special. There is no class as I see it but He shows mercy on whomever he pleases.

    Romans 9:15-16 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs but on God who has mercy.

    How do you know your discussion is on a special anointed when your death determines if you made it as an elect one of 144,000.

    Revelation 2:10 New International Version (NIV)
    10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

    Point #3
    Where is the scriptural support for those who persecute their brothers going into second death? I ask because on one of our Wednesday night studies we were told we might be subject to second death if we didn’t accept the pyramid doctrine or the seventh messenger doctrine as being a man of the Laodicea church. (Which by the way is not a good church to be responsible for or a messenger of.)

  127. jacqueline says:

    Hello Kent, now a meaty subject to discuss, my thoughts: I have never seen a scripture in the Bible that indicates or suggest that the great crowd is inferior to the 144,000 who is a Bride. They are another group like angels are another group not necessarily inferior to the Bride.
    These are just two of the instances where the great crowd is mentioned but there is no mention of inferiority, that I see. What is your scriptural support for this thinking? Thanks my brother, now we get to put our brains to works on what the Bible ACTUALLY SAYS. Nowhere can I find that this heavenly class of Christians from all walks and races are in some way inferior? How is this thought developed? Peace

    Revelation 7:9 New International Version (NIV)The Great Multitude in White Robes
    9 After this, I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
    10 And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

    11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever. Amen!”
    Next, again the great crowd: Revelation 19:6

    6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:

    “Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. 7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
    and his bride has made herself ready.8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

    (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

    9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

    10 At this, I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

  128. Kent says:

    Hi Jacqueline

    In Revelation, the great company is serving God day and night in front of the throne and in the temple. These make up, from what I have understood a heavenly class of not immortal angels and they come from the ones that where once called to the be one of the 144 000 and later lost their crowns.

    They are also called a mercy class because God is merciful and they are not rebellious they just did not show enough appreciation and commitment to the calling.

    The only ones of the called ones that go into second death are those that go against God and persecute their former brothers. They do this with full knowledge of what they are doing but we can not judge the only one that judges is God.

    Jesus said to the Pharisees “How can you escape to be judged to Gehenna”.

    Christian love from Kent

  129. jacqueline says:

    Okay, the floor is open to discussing 607 BCE or 587 BCE.
    THE GENTILE TIMES REVISITED!

  130. jacqueline says:

    Shannon, Since your comment is now asking for just some INFO to help you on this Sunday I would like to suggest going on You Tube, and picking out some of the Ministers like Chuck Missler to get some spiritual food for today.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYiuM43u0Q4&t=43s

  131. Shannon says:

    Hi. Jacqueline can you send me info for Sunday

  132. jacqueline says:

    Nubby Tope, how do you eat an elephant? One small bite at a time and chew this elephant really long.
    Since I have seen this throwing people into second death bounced around so much I wanted like others to see what does God Himself say on this because men have an agenda of control when they sling this around.
    (1)As you stated:

    Revelation 19:20 New International Version (NIV)
    20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur”.

    (2) Who was engaged with them and threw them there?
    Revelation 19:19 New International Version (NIV) 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.”
    That Rider I believe was Jesus, I may be wrong but He had power to bring down these SYSTEMS at that time forever to the fiery lake that burns with sulfur.

    (3) Was the actual fighters against him, humans, thrown into the lake of fire? Not according to what is actually said here:
    21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.” So we know they were actually dead because their FLESH was ingested.
    Here it says the sword of his mouth killed them but didn’t consign them to the fiery lake. So I wonder how religions assign those that aren’t fighting him but trying to worship although they make mistakes?
    To conclude this one part before going into what I see Jehovah doing, can I get some feedback. Maybe I missed the point. Thank you

  133. Nubby Tope says:

    In Revelation 20 (?) second death is described as lake of fire and only mentions Satan and demons, and those who fail final test after 1000 year Reign as the only ones there. I think beasts of Rev are there too. No other group of humans are mentioned here and so I assume its safe to say that most humans will not be going there. That’s what I’ve always believed and see no reason to change unless someone has a more logical explanation based on the Bible.

  134. jacqueline says:

    I have heard two thoughts on who goes into second death. One says those that have dedicated themselves don’t make the Bride class of 144,000 will go into second death.
    Then some say “the great company” or “great crowd” are those that didn’t make the 144,000. So are the great crowd the ones that did not make it into the Bride class or do those ones go into second death?
    I see a contradiction in teaching here. What do you think about this?
    (The above thoughts are what I have heard from different ones of the Bible Student movement)

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *