SECOND DEATH - Talk Below
Revelation 20:
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Hint: When did the book of life open? Today or after the thousand years?
____________________________________________________
Some of us have been told that if we leave an organization or do not believe certain doctrines, or sin by leaving after having "the truth"it will result in our going into second death.
This is an interesting talk on that subject for you to decide from scripture. Bob Carnegie a brother from the Bible students movement gives his perspective. He's a good man just trying to give us some things to think about. Enjoy and Thank you
______________________
Thanks Jacqueline for the quick answer. We too know the effects of stress from trying to deal with an organization. My wife and I talked about the effect that the friends site must surly be having on you as we watched you reason and use diplomacy to cover the rest. I get it now, your site that is. We have not been to a meeting/church for three years. Each time we try to share what we’ve found in the Bible people immediately become upset. It seems people have a tendency to take the knowledge they have as personal power/ personal image trying to raise themselves above the rest in some way. I believe it is mainly a desire to feel unique . Even when you acknowledge some truth they have as right, it doesn’t go far in cultivating a relationship with them when we point out logically that the facts they have don’t add up to the conclusions they’ve drawn. It seems that the statement “the truth will set you free” can never be fully realized until it happens. You find yourself outside not only all organizations and denominations, but outside almost all relationships. You see how important the connection of brothers through time is as you realize you know the experience they had and that you would recognize their minds immediately when they start to explain themselves.
(Romans 14:1-4) . . .Welcome the [man] having weaknesses in [his] faith, but not to make decisions on inward questionings. 2 One [man] has faith to eat everything, but the [man] who is weak eats vegetables. 3 Let the one eating not look down on the one not eating, and let the one not eating not judge the one eating, for God has welcomed that one. 4 Who are you to judge the house servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Yahweh can make him stand.
The problem is that all denominations teach loyalty to the organization as loyalty to God, not realizing that even if they could serve as a provision from God they would be doing it temporarily . In this time of the end the effect is that they cause everyone associating with them to become blind and deaf at some point. They do this by forbidding them to progress up the path of reason past doctrine. They say it would be a stand against God. Really they just want everyone to worship them, which is what it means to allow someone else to decide right and wrong for you. I seldom forget conceptual information when it relates to frame of mind. The Bible is a book written to document frame of mind, God’s, angels’, and mankind’s. Every reference the Bible makes to the history of God, angels, or man relates to frame of mind. If you don’t get that mankind lost his approved frame of mind and must regain it to find life again you miss our connection to God. Becoming an expert on any facet of the Bible, be it the tongues, the people, or the land will never give you insight into what the Bible is really about, what the Bible is really trying to give you.
What is it all about? How many people have any idea what it, the realities are all about. Within the “theory of the trinity” God is all knowing, created everything to serve his will, and cannot be wrong, even though he has to send himself to earth to straighten out what appears to be wrong. Of course since everything serves his will that cannot be, wrong. The best it could be is God entertaining himself. Within the “theory of the trinity” there can be no “question” because God knows all and cannot be wrong. So if all the suffering from sickness, war, and accident are part of this entertainment, who that is rational would serve him. Would this mass murderer make anyone want to be a “friend of God”. I know that we wrote and posted an overview on the Friends site of what actually is happening in our realty from the beginning of the path to the end of the thousand years, but maybe you missed seeing it. If you lay a foundation it must begin with the concept that the building is to be built “up” on; the blue prints if you like. Don’t you find it intriguing that during the time of Jesus and the apostles the truth was simply explained to the honest hearted and then they explained it to the next person. The apostles saw that the wolves would come in and mislead the majority, making sure that there was no clear path known so that others would become dependent on those viewed as having a fuller grasp of the truth. The “nation” of Israel did the same thing. One of there main objections to Jesus and his followers was that they were not educated. When the end was to come the truth was prophesied to become abundant again. Knowing this, Satan’s response is the information age where there is so much information that surely no one can be right, given the next new research. Satan has already set it up so that “faith” basically means holding onto emotion when challenged with reason. Faith no longer needs the proof of logic only loyalty to this organization or that person’s ideas.
Because you evidently have taken up an honest hearted child like approach to God and the truth, you have been freed from not only the organization, but from the theory of the trinity. This means you have also been freed from all religious pursuits that are called Christian on earth. Be freed from the rest. NO, not forsaking those eating vegetables but progressing “up” the path, so that you, such a talented person, can help them to be free too. Take up the pursuit of Truth, stand erect.
(Luke 21:25-28) . . .“Also, there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth anguish of nations, not knowing the way out because of the roaring of the sea and [its] agitation, 26 while men become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27 And then they will see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 But as these things start to occur, raise yourselves erect and lift YOUR heads up, because YOUR deliverance is getting near.”
(Ecclesiastes 3:15) What has happened to be, it had already been, and what is to come to be has already proved to be; and the [true] God himself keeps seeking that which is pursued
Realize that God, Yahweh, must and is pursuing truth. Become his friend by knowing him and his “way”. Build Faith through “under-standing” that God has freed your will by showing with humility that He has no beginning; in other words, He does not know how He came to be. Yahweh is still God, and it is only with the help of a being so much higher than us in intellect and power that we can put on immortality so as to pursue with him, as a friend.
Below is a part of a past consideration written by us.
NO BEGINNING
By reason and logic we can see that Yahweh could have no explanation for his beginning because this would require that something or someone would have to exist or have existence before him, to show or explain to him what this beginning was. Basic logic tells us that you cannot be aware before you are aware. Yahweh confirmed this when he stated the conditions He found himself in at Isaiah 43:10:
(Isaiah 43:10) “YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Yahweh, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none.
This statement of conditions in Isaiah 43:10 showed the rational mind the possibility of something else outside of God; not the fact, but the possibility. This statement also allowed us to separated our will from his overall reality or will, thus giving us choice outside of his will, or what we call free will. The fruit of the tree in the middle of the Garden of Eden only represented the statement that we give Yahweh the right to decide right and wrong; it could not have given freedom from his will. The computer is given choices and the ability to make them, but it is not free from our will. There are other conditions that God exists and is bound within, and these will be mentioned later as they relate to each consideration.
The Bible’s explanation of our beginning (Ge 1:1) together with visible creative works shows proof of a creator. The importance of the realization that God has no beginning is that it shows us the nature of our relationship to him. When you add the statement at (Ec 3:15) that we must pursue that which he also pursues, truth, you can see that there is a stand to be taken and if you “under-stand” it will be under your friend, Yahweh.
We appreciate that you’ve given us space to post and we’ll try to do it in such a way that it takes as little of you time as possible.
Traveler now your last paragraphs (No Beginning) are an example of how people have stuff to say also other than what a man or group of a few isolated men say. I got to go over those paragraphs again. You are using your brains cells to think and reason. Thanks
I want to let you know you answered 2 questions without knowing there was a discussion going on.
Trinity, you gave the origin and the “Gifts”, which I won’t comment on here because that is Dave’s format on Thursday night. http://askjacqueline.life/conference-call-using-just-the-bible-research/.
This is the new network that we are using on Thursday: http://askjacqueline.life/freeconferencecall/
I tell you the truth Jacqueline I am totally mystified by this site. I see that something is going on behind the scene. I haven\’t figured out how there is an interaction on the site between posts and those seeking answers, as on the friends of JW\’s we met on. I assumed people looking to find answers would be returning and interacting directly.
Traveler, all answering on the friends site are people I interacted with and they have carried on. We have a lot of readers on this site like the fojw site but they never respond or say anything. They have that freedom. This site is different than the fojw site. It teaches doctrine and to comment on it I have to stay within the teachings of Russell whether I believe it or not, so I parted ways.
Many had left before me because it really isn’t a friends of JW site as it is censored heavily. This site let’s others post their comments and thoughts for others to see a different view but we don’t point you to any religion but encourage you to do research yourself. We are in the process of posting some research done by others that once associated with Bible Students and witnesses. The Thursday night and Saturday call in is hosted on this site. We really don’t have an agenda but let all talk.
I personally can’t respond to every point in a comment but leave it for others to ponder. Our little group received so much adversity when I left fojw site my health was affected adversely. Never had those types of attacks when leaving the witnesses so I am recovering but still active.
The fojw site will engage you if you post. I know all posters personally and they have the time for a great discussion. We are not persuasive here. Just post and listen. I ask e-mailers and phone callers to me to post on the site so all can discuss and because I am recovering from a stress induced stroke according to my health team. Others on here are suffering challenges all of a sudden together. Very odd, but we overcome each challenge thrown at us and keep pushing. Take care.
Hi friend in Christ. We’ve posted our bit in considering holy spirit under “thoughts from a traveler”. We hope you at least find some of what you are asking for.
Traveler, I will call her and tell her to come read. She actually came on Thursday and presented this for us to discuss on Thursday Bible Study. We will discuss then.
Right now we are on free conference calling for testimony meeting. I will tell her here if she pops on. Thank you for answering her. Now you got the hang of it. We answer any question that pops up or comment on thoughts.?❤?
Hi Jacqueline or anyone with an answer:
Do you have any information on the gifts of the Spirit?
Like speaking in tongues. I know JW believe these gifts are not active anymore. Thank you
I came across this on Facebook from a Messianic Jewish scholar. I found it intersting and to me it makes sense:
What was the Mark of the Beast?
By Dr. Eli Lizorkin-Eyzenberg – February 14, 201832352 399
In the Book of Revelation, we read about the arrival of the Beast – the enemy of God’s people. During this period, Christ-followers will be excluded from participation in the local economy unless they agree to place upon their head and hand the mark of the Beast (Rev. 13:16-18). But what is the exact nature of the mark?
To understand the true meaning of the mark of the beast, something must be kept in mind – The Book of Revelation is a Jewish, anti-Roman document. Once we realize that, we need to remember that the central Jewish Torah text that was recited twice daily stated, “‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one.” It had another, less famous, but an integral part: “Bind them (God’s commandments) as a sign on your hand and they will be on your forehead.” (Deut. 6:4-8) Jewish people, both today and in antiquity, fulfill this commandment by literally tying the words of the Living God found in Torah to their hand and head almost every day of the week. This Practice is called, “the laying on of a tefillin.”
If the Book of Revelation is read with an awareness of the first-century Jewish context, it becomes clear that we should not imagine that one day the entire world will undergo a medical procedure that will insert a chip under the human skin (as some Bible teachers speculate). Instead, we should understand the mark of the beast to be an inward or outward expression that opposes the Law of God in the life of a human being. As the enemy of God and His people, the evil Beast would naturally want to replace the mark of God that goes on the hand and head of the worshiper with his own mark.
https://weekly.israelbiblecenter.com
You have my permission on anything i post. I hope to be on Thursday.
Response to Bro. Ted:
These are all interesting observations and questions.
As you know from our Thursday night meeting, as students of the Bible we MUST take EXTREME CARE not to answer or form opinions about questions like these without Scriptural support.
I totally understand your situation (better than anyone else you know), so I’d like to ask your permission to use your post as a topic of discussion for our Thursday night meeting on 11/29 (I’m assuming our group will vote to NOT have a meeting on 11/22)
AND
will give our group a chance to prepare, instead of just springing these questions on them.
Also, every question humans can come up with MAY not have Scriptural answers.
What should that mean to us, if we cannot find Scriptural answers to our question?
My dear brother and friend, Ted,
Thank you so much for expressing yourself here. I can only imagine how many other wonderful gems you could share if you had greater ease of access and freeness of speech on Saturday nights. Thank you so much for sharing these beautiful expressions with us here!
Warmly and sincerely,
-greg
Regarding this topic of second death I have some thoughts. First, lets look at the Scriptures quoted above in Revelation. When do these take place? When do Death and Hades get destroyed? When is Satan, the False Prophet, and the Wild Beast get destroyed? When does God judge those whose name is written in the Book of Life? We know Satan is not completely destroyed until the end of the thousand years. Death and the grave is not destroyed until the end of the thousand years when God grants everlasting life to the faithful after the little season. It stands to reason that second death does not come into place until after the resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous which does not occur until sometime after Christ takes up his throne and begins his judgment day. When we read in other parts in the Bible that talks about no forgiveness for those who sin against Holy Spirit, who determines that? Are we to judge? Can we presume to speak for God? Our JW cousins seem to do that but should we fall into that same trap? Unless a person completely rejects Christ after knowing him and turns to evil, why would anyone be in danger of the second death? Satan is misleading the entire earth, often becoming an Angel of Light! Scriptures provide a warning to us but it is only Jehovah and his Son that exercise the final judgment. Only they know whose name is written in the Book of Life. It is not up to us to speculate or render judgment. Jehovah is our merciful Father. If we are truly desiring to serve him he see’s that. He knows are hearts! Righteousness and salvation does not depend on doctrine, it depends our sincere desire to serve the Lord with our whole heart, soul and mind. Serving him in Truth,from our innermost hear, not hypocritically. When we read the example of Christ in the Gospels and the letters of Paul, everything points to two things, love Jehovah with all our hearts and our neighbor as ourselves. So let us stop arguing or speculating on the second death! That is up to our Lord! If we are serving God to the best of our ability and working out our own salvation, we have no worries. Stop judging that you may not be judged! Lets all just serve our God until the Kingdom when the TRUE knowledge of Jehovah will be revealed!
I remember once in field service back then one person told me that you are not following Christ. I feel ashamed for telling him that yes we do. This person was so right all the time. It took me this long to wake up and see this.
Now we have our faith in Christ so we don’t need JW stuff anymore. We need to hear Christ voice only.
John 10:27
My sheep hear My voice, I know them, and they follow Me.
Also I want to say this to comfort everyone minds that, everyone who believes in Christ will be saved.
Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes,
Marjo, I too realize now how uninformed I was on what it really meant to be about Christ Jesus. These “so-called worldly people” had more knowledge about Christ and his redeeming us than any governing body members, me or the watchtower.
We were always studying a book or watchtower or referencing a watchtower for my entire 70 years of life. We had the governing body and before that the faithful servant or slave, everybody but Christ Jesus first. Wow, what a ride we have been on.
I have nothing against books so that is why I am going to do the 66 and some other holy writings I know about before studying whole volumes written by men.
Last night I went to sleep listening to Acts and realized as clear understanding was coming in my mind, that I needed to stop and check out these first few verses carefully. It is so much contained in the Bible that you don’t really need books, Holy Spirit helps you. An individual relationship with God is what we never had only an organization or book relationship.
Yes it is good to see different views, because we don’t know what else happened after that when apostles disappeared or got killed. There is no scripture here to tell us about that. After the time when John wrote Revelations. If there was Romans must have burn them all.
I have to say when I read that letter, I felt uncomfortable about it. Uncomfortable because I know that Bible is all about Yeshua.
Marjo, also the governing body believes in the substitution that they are the Jews and the Nation of Israel has been totally abandoned by Jehovah. So Isa. 43:10-12 they claim to be His witnesses and therefore the Jews deal directly with Jehovah not Jesus. So that is why the skip Christ in their equation.
Many religions believed this when the Jews were not going home as predicted in the Bible but now religions are dropping it because the Jews did become a nation in 1948 as foretold.
The witnesses are holding on to this old doctrine adopted by Rutherford. I stay away from their site as I know it manipulates with choice words. I decided it wasn’t healthy for me to keep hearing these doctrines, now for 70 years. I am done. lol I am getting so much joy however from just the Bible. Holy Spirit is so powerful.
I find this page interesting from Barbara Anderson’s site. I was mentioning on Wednesday study that none of the things are new that most of the failed predictions and doctrines were here long before the witness religion founders were born.
http://watchtowerdocuments.org/gods-divine-plan-of-evil-for-6000-years/#more-4859
Dear sister Jacqueline
When these people are saying like this they are very wrong. Then they don’t fully understand the Book of Revelation at all. I don’t either, but I’m getting there little by little with the help of Holy Spirit.
They are saying that second death is now here. There are still events in the Revelation that hasn’t happen. Whore riding in the beast has not been destroyed yet or the beast. Satan hasn’t been chained yet, he is still out there hunting people.
When 1000 years has begun then Satan is being chained. When 1000 years is over Satan will be lose for a while and after that and the door to second death will open. We don’t need to worry. It is not here yet.
p.s I wanted to come online last night, but I was too tired because of the trip we made to another town. Take good care of yourselves.
– Marjo
Did you see the latest letter from GB in JW site? It seems that they are totally forgetting Yeshua ( Jesus) and replacing Yahweh as the grand instructor. I can not believe this. How can these people be so blind?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/reading-and-teaching/governing-body-letter/
No, I didn’t see this on jw.org because I never go to their site Marjo thank you for sending this for everyone to see.
Also on your comment above about the second death. See how you just reasoned it out. I try to do the same without adding to the text all the other assumptions I have been taught.
Others, however, do see second death now according to the long-held teachings and that is okay. Maybe the view of second death being open before judgment day is true, what really matters is we can discuss it without someone saying what an organization or men teach on the subject and insisting we have to conform or risk some kind of df or shunning. We can disagree and know it is not a salvation issue that God and Jesus got this! But it is only human to think on these matters.
PS: I had a Psychotherapy session last night (Saturday) from 7 pm until 9 pm, so I wasn’t able to get on either. I caught just the tail end of the testimony meeting. Later this week let’s think of getting together on the BBB while it is a decent hour in Finland.
I will see what my schedule is for that.
Hello dear brothers and sisters!
I really had to take a deep study on this second death topic before saying anything to it. I was reading Revelation 21:8. When you begin to follow Yeshua you can not have unholy habits. You can not be a slave of two masters. You are either a slave of habits that are listed there or the slave of God. You can not be both. You can not be anything of those that are listed in Revelation 21:8. If you want to be God’s servant you have to be clean. For example, you can not be a witch and be God’s servant same time. No, you must abandon for being a witch and after that you can serve God. If you don’t do that you might belong to the group who goes to second death. Second death means that there is no resurrection. After that death is eternal. There is only a resurrection in a first death. I don’t mean to offend anyone with this but that is what Bible say.
But if someone judges you in religious group when you don’t obey their rules like: you are doomed in second death. They are wrong. They don’t know what is in your heart at the moment. God knows who you are. You have time to make your choice for being a God’s servant as long as you live. God is the only one who is making the last judgement not us humans.
Wishing you all the best in Christ!
– Marjo
Marjo thanks so much for your comment. Second Death is surely in the Bible and it is the final judgment. The reason the discussion came up is because some were saying there is second death now for humans. Like at armageddon (JW) even if you never heard about Jesus. Like if you are consecrated but fail as a sinner to follow Jesus that you go into second death. That if you don’t accept teachings but forth by a man or group of men, it is sinning against the Holy Spirit and you go into second death.
As you stated the Bible clearly says who goes into second death in the scriptures at the top of this article.
I don’t worry about it on a personal level for I know my father and how he loves all of his children and will have done everything possible to save them. They will have to be incorrigible and unsavable. That is what I concentrate on. Satan hasn’t responded in all these years!
1Tim 2:4: ” who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.” NIV
PS: Marjo I won’t be able to come on tonight except through listen-only as I took on a therapy session that begins at 7:30- 9:30 pm my time but hopefully my Bluetooth will let me listen.
Hi Jacqueline
What seems to be the issue here is the fear of second death. I did not mean the the brethren go into second death just because the persecute their brethren. My thought was that there is a point when a truly anointed born again christian that have tasted the truth of Gods word can become so deviated from the truth and if that person keeps sinning against holy spirit and against God he risks to go into second death.
We can not judge these things only god can we can only see the outer signs like hate towards God and his word and his people, serious willing sins and no tendency to be regretful.
Again we shall never threaten anyone with second death that is very serious and we shall let God judge.
Jesus said to Satan may God rebuke you satan.
Another thing wy shall we let other scare us with second death.
I remember my old JW friend that was baptized 1937 and lived until he was 99 he once told me a story about a JW brother standing outside a convention with a pamphlet or something against JW.
He walked over to this man and asked him why he did not come in and join the convention?
The man said “I have been doomed to second death with no chance to come back, (disfellowshipped for apostasy)”.
My friend said ok I hear what you say.
Do you want to come in and worship with us?
The man said of course I want to.
My friend said you see I understand you have not sinned against holy spirit beyond hope, because you love God and wants to worship him with the brethren,
A person that has sinned seriously against holy spirit beyond repentance does not love God anymore neither does he want to worship him with the brethren. He does not regret anything. Despite this we can not judge him only God can.
Jacqueline lets talk more about this tomorrow.
Christian love
Kent
Kent, perhaps we can ask the crowd to join in on this. It is a subject that is used by some religions to keep people in line, I feel. What we are trying to do is go by what the Bible clearly teaches and say, so that is why I ask for scriptures.
(1) Where is the scriptural basis for this statement? “My thought was that there is a point when a truly anointed born-again Christian that has tasted the truth of Gods word can become so deviated from the truth and if that person keeps sinning against holy spirit and against God he risks to go into second death.” But what about Hitler? A Christian loses his way but Mussolini, all the serial killers get resurrection?
Just letting my brain ask if this makes sense.
(2)Why would a man want to worship with the witnesses if they DF him and said second death?
“The man said “I have been doomed to second death with no chance to come back, (disfellowshipped for apostasy)”.
My father was df in 1958 for taking a blood transfusion. They came to him in 1959 telling him he could come back before he died of his cancer. He refused and said he wanted to die with God knowing he didn’t follow man.
They told 9 children and my mother that he went into second death and my 75-year-old brother still believe this because they said he died in a df state from their organization. So I ask Apostasy against whom? Isn’t that for God? I never believed God hated my daddy.
Man makes up a lot more control features just like hellfire. That is why I am now trying to go by what the Bible clearly teaches and not beyond.
I personally do not believe in Second death now before the thousand years rather after it is over.
As we discussed in detail last night this scripture has a time period- after the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 “Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years”. Doesn’t seem they were to worry about 2nd death before their resurrection because maybe it was future, held in God’s hand after Christ finishes his work? During judgment day, the little season. I am all now are under Adamic death according to what I see the Bible saying. Just flexing my brain here.
Rev 20:9 “They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”
“Tormented”-given the severest, harshest sentence forever never to return again, Notice they are in the “little season” where they were perfect and defied JEHOVAH GOD.
God really tells you who goes into the second death. Religious men make up stuff to try and put a scare so you will follow their doctrine.
I like discussing it openly here on the site because it is for all of us to benefit, I have settled my heart on the issue, but a discussion is good for us on such a serious subject since we have been told we could be liable for not accepting doctrines or thoughts of prominent men.
Dave moderated a discussion on this subject last night and here is his summary. Perhaps he or the “crowd has something to say also”
http://askjacqueline.life/conference-call-using-just-the-bible-research/
Take care Kent and Thank you so much for correcting the name on BBB, we noticed.
Shalom sister Jacqueline
First I want to say that there is a difference between Hitler and an enlightened True christian one of the called ones.
Hitler was never given any enlightenment from God in the scriptures. He was not given a new birth to a heavenly hope with the gift of Jesus ransom sacrifice.
I am fully aware of what a horrible person he was, but God is the judge not us.
A christian given these things have only two outcomes either he make it as one of the 144 000 (rev 14) or he loses his crown and
according to rev 7; 9-17 he joins the great company and have the hope of serving God day and night in the temple before the throne.
He has not the chance of choosing between life on earth and life in heaven, because he has sacrificed his right to live on earth forever when he consecrated to serve God forever as potentially being one of the 144 000.
If he sins very seriously and knowingly willingly goes against God and his truth he risks second death.
He has only two outcomes life in heaven as one of the 144 000 or one of the great company or second death that’s how it is.
There is only one christian hope and that is the same hope Jesus had and that the apostles had.
The word christian means to be anointed and that means to be immersed with God’s spirit in to his body the church of the 144 000.
All else have the hope of being blessed by Jesus and his bride.
Isaiah 9 wonderfully describes Jesus rule like this:
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called Wonderful Counselor,
Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Cristian love
Kent
Kent Shalom, I appreciate your sincere belief in this but I now have to accept the Bible support scriptures. These are long-held beliefs by some but the Bible should say directly something as serious as this don’t you think. For instance, this statement, let’s break it down with the scripture.
“If he sins very seriously and knowingly willingly goes against God and his truth he risks second death.
He has only two outcomes of life in heaven as one of the 144 000 or one of the great company or second death that’s how it is.
There is only one Christian hope and that is the same hope Jesus had and that the apostles had.”
For the audience sake where is this in the Bible or a link perhaps to an article that contains the scriptural support, because I know you are busy.
My support, for instance, is the talk presented here with all the scriptures. Do you know of a talk where this doctrine is explained that you only have the two choices or second death for Christians? I don’t say consecrated Christians because it denotes that there is a superiority.
I never accepted this simple statement but with no scriptural support.
I invite the persons looking on to listen to the talk from Bob Carnegie and he gives scriptures and explains them to see if they make sense.
Kent I do respect your sincere right to hold to this belief and perhaps many others do.
Isn’t it nice we can talk openly here without a shutdown or shunning?
I hope others will jump in also to tell us what they see. Hopefully, the statements will have some scriptures as we are training our minds to not say it is hot because we were told but because the Bible says it is hot. lol
BTW, Kent you can approve your comment without it being held in moderation. I wish this program would let comments post immediately.
Dear sister Jacqueline
My story of the man that stood outside the convention was to give an illustration of the fact that if someone has true love for God and a desire to serve him, he has in my mind and in my friends mind not sinned against the holy spirit severely, if he would have done that, he would not have any sort of desire to serve God.
In Christ
Kent
Oh okay, I remember the JW reasoning on how do you know if you have sinned against the Holy Spirit. If I have to have a fear like that it would take away from my warmth toward God. Replace hellfire with fear of second death. Feels good to be able to see what the Bible actually say. Thanks.
Hello Kent and Jackie!
When I have been reading letters I noticed that some verses are linked to the book of Revelation even tho they are not marked as cross references. In Ephesians 4:30 And do not make God’s Holy Spirit sad; for the Spirit is God’s mark of ownership on you, a guarantee that the Day will come when God will set you free.
Paul is talking about Gods seal. If I’ve understood this right, Gods seal is Holy Spirit. Revelation 7:3 is talking about this sealing: “Don’t harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we seal the servants of our God on their foreheads.”
Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of the sealed: 144,000 sealed from every tribe of the Israelites.
My thought of this is that this 144 000 could be this great group which John saw. Could fist church and apostles belong to this group?
Paul is talking that he belongs to tribe of Benjamin in Philippinians 3:5
circumcised the eighth day; of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew born of Hebrews; regarding the law, a Pharisee;
Revelation 7:8
12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 sealed from the tribe of Benjamin.
Marjo, I can see what you are saying about the sealing being the Holy Spirit. I have never believed in special people being special “Anointed”.
I think none of us have made it so as to say others go into second death or the great crowd now because of what Paul said, that he hadn’t made it.
Philippians 3:10-20 New International Version (NIV)
10 I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
Following Paul’s Example
15 All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
I don’t believe this term anointed either. There is a group called sealed. I don’t even know where JW got this word anointed from. I don’t like it at all how they twist words.
Hi Marjo, you know I have been doing a lot of contemplation on whether I am going to get the courage to listen carefully to him. My son is so upset that he now realizes he wasn’t really taught what was really in the Bible or told other important things about the Bible. It was a topical study geared to teach unique doctrine and selected scriptures over and over again. I had to agree and apologize that I too had been fooled. He clearly told us about false Christs or saviors that would say he has come and deceived many people and I am one of them.
Matt. 24 4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
The religion I have associated myself with all my life til now said Christ is out there but invisible. This scripture tells us pointedly not to follow men who would be around during those beginnings saying Christ has returned but he is out there where you can’t see him, it is an invisible presence. Read this carefully and see what you think. And they have foretold the end of the world many times. This in direct defiance of Jesus who said no man knows the day or the hour. They are smarter than him and can figure it out I guess.
Matt 24: 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
I am going to get away completely from these types of religions. I learn so much from listening and sharing what other men are sharing from scripture, it rounds out my knowledge, instead of being lead to just waiting to make my calling sure, studying over and over again the words of one man or a few. I have prayed over this and feel his approval that I am finally learning and listening to him.
Thursday night, Marjo, we feel Holy Spirit helping us to understand the scriptures and bring up more to our minds as we go on. We learn more from all those 66 books than all the books we have been plowing thru all my life.
Books, 66 of them have been with us all the time and they have been approved and stamped by God himself and Jesus. How could I have been so deceived for so long and went right back into it after escaping?
For now, I am going to go where the Spirit is with the Thursday night, Bible only studies, and trust him.
The internet allows us to talk to other Christians about scripture and I think it is what Daniel was talking about, the reason he told Daniel not to worry. There is more knowledge found and less persecution from Papacy if you think on your own. But brothers try to stop you from thinking even now, but I am branching out, walking away. I enjoy talking to you and others about scriptures using the 66 books. Getting more than one view. I have learned a lot from the 70 years of BOOK studies but now I can branch out and learn from the 66 books.
You were so brave to get away and get in touch directly with God. I can see the blessedness from your speech. You have given me courage when you said you got into the Bible over this last year.
Thank you my sister! I just realized myself too how being in JW religion they have made shadows front of our eyes not to see the truth in the Bible with their books and magazines. Now I’ve been reading letters over and over again the light is more clear than it was 10 years ago. Now I have my project to find Bible verses that support the fact that Yeshua (Jesus) is not a God himself but he is a son of God. I learned another truth about Jesus name in the Bible history also. His name wasnt always written as Jesus. In the oldest Bible it was Iezus came from Zeus. Chocking isn’t it? That’s why I would rather use Yeshua.
Hi Jacqueline
In Revelation, the great company is serving God day and night in front of the throne and in the temple. These make up, from what I have understood a heavenly class of not immortal angels and they come from the ones that where once called to the be one of the 144 000 and later lost their crowns.
They are also called a mercy class because God is merciful and they are not rebellious they just did not show enough appreciation and commitment to the calling.
The only ones of the called ones that go into second death are those that go against God and persecute their former brothers. They do this with full knowledge of what they are doing but we can not judge the only one that judges is God.
Jesus said to the Pharisees “How can you escape to be judged to Gehenna”.
Christian love from Kent
Hello Kent, now a meaty subject to discuss, my thoughts: I have never seen a scripture in the Bible that indicates or suggest that the great crowd is inferior to the 144,000 who is a Bride. They are another group like angels are another group not necessarily inferior to the Bride.
These are just two of the instances where the great crowd is mentioned but there is no mention of inferiority, that I see. What is your scriptural support for this thinking? Thanks my brother, now we get to put our brains to works on what the Bible ACTUALLY SAYS. Nowhere can I find that this heavenly class of Christians from all walks and races are in some way inferior? How is this thought developed? Peace
Revelation 7:9 New International Version (NIV)The Great Multitude in White Robes
9 After this, I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
10 And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
11 All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying: Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever. Amen!”
Next, again the great crowd: Revelation 19:6
6 Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:
“Hallelujah! For our Lord God Almighty reigns. 7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come,
and his bride has made herself ready.8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”
(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”
10 At this, I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”
Kent, I am asking these questions to stimulate if these teachings are actually in the Bible or are just doctrines of men. If it is a certain church doctrine it is okay for them to believe this but if it isn’t actually taught by Jehovah God or Jesus then others don’t have to accept it but can still fellowship in love. We all have stuff we believe but others don’t see or we can think out loud.
All of this helps us to heal and get our brains to moving again.
Point #2, “Mercy Class”. Where is this mentioned in the Bible? I have heard of it but it is a made up expression and comes from types and anti-types which I see in the Bible but not everything is a type some of it is made up to support the superiority of the “consecrated class”, which really are all Christians who at death only are declared special. There is no class as I see it but He shows mercy on whomever he pleases.
Romans 9:15-16 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs but on God who has mercy.
How do you know your discussion is on a special anointed when your death determines if you made it as an elect one of 144,000.
Revelation 2:10 New International Version (NIV)
10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.
Point #3
Where is the scriptural support for those who persecute their brothers going into second death? I ask because on one of our Wednesday night studies we were told we might be subject to second death if we didn’t accept the pyramid doctrine or the seventh messenger doctrine as being a man of the Laodicea church. (Which by the way is not a good church to be responsible for or a messenger of.)
Okay, the floor is open to discussing 607 BCE or 587 BCE.
THE GENTILE TIMES REVISITED!
Hi. Jacqueline can you send me info for Sunday
Shannon, Since your comment is now asking for just some INFO to help you on this Sunday I would like to suggest going on You Tube, and picking out some of the Ministers like Chuck Missler to get some spiritual food for today.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYiuM43u0Q4&t=43s
In Revelation 20 (?) second death is described as lake of fire and only mentions Satan and demons, and those who fail final test after 1000 year Reign as the only ones there. I think beasts of Rev are there too. No other group of humans are mentioned here and so I assume its safe to say that most humans will not be going there. That’s what I’ve always believed and see no reason to change unless someone has a more logical explanation based on the Bible.
Nubby Tope, how do you eat an elephant? One small bite at a time and chew this elephant really long.
Since I have seen this throwing people into second death bounced around so much I wanted like others to see what does God Himself say on this because men have an agenda of control when they sling this around.
(1)As you stated:
Revelation 19:20 New International Version (NIV)
20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur”.
(2) Who was engaged with them and threw them there?
Revelation 19:19 New International Version (NIV) 19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army.”
That Rider I believe was Jesus, I may be wrong but He had power to bring down these SYSTEMS at that time forever to the fiery lake that burns with sulfur.
(3) Was the actual fighters against him, humans, thrown into the lake of fire? Not according to what is actually said here:
21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.” So we know they were actually dead because their FLESH was ingested.
Here it says the sword of his mouth killed them but didn’t consign them to the fiery lake. So I wonder how religions assign those that aren’t fighting him but trying to worship although they make mistakes?
To conclude this one part before going into what I see Jehovah doing, can I get some feedback. Maybe I missed the point. Thank you
I have heard two thoughts on who goes into second death. One says those that have dedicated themselves don’t make the Bride class of 144,000 will go into second death.
Then some say “the great company” or “great crowd” are those that didn’t make the 144,000. So are the great crowd the ones that did not make it into the Bride class or do those ones go into second death?
I see a contradiction in teaching here. What do you think about this?
(The above thoughts are what I have heard from different ones of the Bible Student movement)