SECOND DEATH - Talk Below
Revelation 20:
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Hint: When did the book of life open? Today or after the thousand years?
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Some of us have been told that if we leave an organization or do not believe certain doctrines, or sin by leaving after having "the truth"it will result in our going into second death.
This is an interesting talk on that subject for you to decide from scripture. Bob Carnegie a brother from the Bible students movement gives his perspective. He's a good man just trying to give us some things to think about. Enjoy and Thank you
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From Eve to Elizabeth, Miriam to Mary, a host of extraordinary women populate the pages of Scripture. This course explores the roles of women and the presentation of gender in the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament, asking questions from both Jewish and Christian perspectives. Topics include female prophets and judges, women within the early Jesus movement, and gender dynamics in Paul’s letters. The class presents favorable views on women and gender equality in Scripture and also tackles the minority of texts in the Pauline corpus that seem to prohibit female leadership. Join us as we explore the biblical narratives of women and offer interpretive approaches for understanding the questions that remain relevant for gender relations today.
How often do we put God in a box or create him in our image?
Here is one of Mans BIG questions. (In long form)
If God created all things, if he created the tree of knowledge of good and evil and since the knowledge existed before man, what was evil to spirits? Was it or is it something different to spirit beings than it is us? They are dealt with differently…. If God created ALL things then where do we get evil since the predominate thought is that God didn’t create evil himself. He did create the tree of knowledge of Good and evil and had the knowledge as did other spirit beings so the knowledge was likely misused, laws were broken and then came evil, Opposite of good, everything has an opposite right? If God didn’t create evil but did create good the opposite of evil, then the understanding of evil was a result of the creation of good? Right? Some hebrew thinking is that God created ALL things including knowledge and it was the misuse of the knowledge that led to evil so as a result of good evil came about. If God said don’t break this law and someone, lets say satan, breaks it, then he has done bad which is not Gods intention since the law was made for good. There was likely law in heaven before man on earth or at least the understanding of what was right and wrong, ( example satan was a liar, God cannot lie) Life existed before us but we have to be special and decide that sin is only sin when we do it? OR, maybe sin came into being for men and angels are of another type of icky stuff that is bad when they do wrong like satan did in heaven before man.
This is to get the juices flowing, think about this deeply, at least that’s the intent.
The answer isn’t as simple as God created all things except bad because then we cant say he created all. We say he cannot be near sin, if true then satan could not have approached the throne of God of heaven in Job unless the icky stuff for spirits is not the same? Or God created All things including the opposite of good or at least created good knowing the opposite, evil would happen. This is quite an interesting subject cause one simple answer leads to yet another uncomfortable question. I would love to hear different thoughts on this matter. I have listened to and studied 2 perspectives so far and now am slowly coming up with my own yet I have yet to do so as the scriptures have yet to fully harmonize with the subject at hand. They make sense but don’t quite stand the test…
Hopefully this is not too much of a bender, only wanting to see what others would like to say on this.
Well, Lee Anthony, I don’t know about the creation of evil. We happen to live in a world of opposites, up, down, black, white, in, out.
Jehovah created the Races of Mankind but did he create Racism? Jehovah knew that instituting instantly many languages not related to each other that He would create packs of people that looked like each other and thought just alike because they would separate from people they couldn’t understand.
Genes of the males would get rid of any genes that they didn’t possess in probably less than a century.
It created division among men for a purpose to accomplish HIS purpose! He is God and we are really created for his delight.
Is that fair? Well, the other alternative is to not create us and get rid of HIS pleasurable creations.
So yes it is fair and that is what man doesn’t recognize, that he is a created being and the creator thought of every good thing for us to get enjoyment within His set bounds and rules.
The rules might not make sense to us or restrict us, such as we can’t take off and fly or leap over mountains or run like a horse.
So He created Races but not racism, it is a result of us taking advantage of this distinctness, that we could dominate someone because they are visibly different and are easily identified.
India does this with their caste systems, the skin color of the same race identifies them and causes racism.
But is that God’s fault?
I am sure He knew it would happen. My take on how He can create something and it can be used to do something else.
Traveler true the scriptures are revealed when it is time. I have noticed a few skilled ministers say they can’t believe they never saw a scripture say in Luke but now they see it and understand it.
I find the Bible faSCINATING AND REALIZE IT IS AUTHORED BY SOMEONE BEYOND OUR REALM OF EXISTENCE! A God who sometimes shows off! lol, like with Sarah and Abraham having a baby at their age.
Travelers tell me what you think about this scripture, it just puzzles me. When did this happen?
Jeremiah 4:22-26
22 “My people are fools;
they do not know me.
They are senseless children;
they have no understanding.
They are skilled in doing evil;
they know not how to do good.”
23 I looked at the earth,
and it was formless and empty;
and at the heavens,
and their light was gone.
24 I looked at the mountains,
and they were quaking;
all the hills were swaying.
25 I looked, and there were no people;
every bird in the sky had flown away.
26 I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;
all its towns lay in ruins
before the Lord, before his fierce anger.
Well beyond our understanding, but not far off. Showing off ? If I’m right that was a lighthearted statement, I won’t hold you to.
As you know we pay close attention to frame of mind. On the other hand the history of man’s dealings with God have been so dependably weak, bad, that we pay little attention to them in the Bible and elsewhere. It’s always seemed like an inside joke that God’s people, and the “Nation of Israel” described as “stiff necked” due to their pride and unreasonableness, never seemed to get that the reason God chose them was they were the weakest people on earth. So that no man would have reason to boast. This is what Jeremiah is describing, sorry if you were looking for a date.
As for 23-26 God’s people felt like once they had God’s approval it then became their right to hold themselves up above all others of mankind. At times they even thought they were above God and asked for kings, and law, and such. So as we say, these scriptures are giving you the “lay of the land”. Symbolism works well for minds that have trouble with abstract images. Jesus and other men of God, i.e. Moses, are described as the “Mountains of Yahweh” . Mankind says that making a lot out of a little is “making a “mountain out of a mole hill”. Yahweh made mountains out of great shared insight even though it is just a small part of his light/in-sight. “Let those in the congregation who have ears, hear and who have eyes, see”, love that statement . Of course just sharing our thoughts in appreciation of yours, not meant to teach.
(Isaiah 2:1-4) . . .The thing that Isaiah the son of A′moz visioned concerning Judah and Jerusalem: 2 And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Yahweh will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. 3 And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Yahweh (Jesus), to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Yahweh out of Jerusalem. 4 And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.
(Hebrews 5:11-14) . . .Concerning him we have much to say and hard to be explained, since YOU have become dull in YOUR hearing. 12 For, indeed, although YOU ought to be teachers in view of the time, YOU again need someone to teach YOU from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God; and YOU have become such as need milk, not solid food. 13 For everyone that partakes of milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. 14 But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their perceptive powers trained to distinguish both right and wrong. . .
(1 Corinthians 1:26-31) 26 For YOU behold his calling of YOU, brothers, that not many wise in a fleshly way were called, not many powerful, not many of noble birth; 27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put the strong things to shame; 28 and God chose the ignoble things of the world and the things looked down upon, the things that are not, that he might bring to nothing the things that are, 29 in order that no flesh might boast in the sight of God. 30 But it is due to him that YOU are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom; 31 that it may be just as it is written: “He that boasts, let him boast in Yahweh.. . .
Nice work Jacqueline, “let those in the congregation who have ears hear”
“I totally agree that if we pray for the helper.”
“As many as are led by the spirit, THESE are sons of God”
Yes we have the Bible, but without the “spirit of understanding” the considerations in it cannot be heard. Let those in the congregation “who have ears”
The Bible is made up of truth written in such a way that it was to be understood down through time as each understanding was relevant. Those who do not have “ears”, or in other words are not led by the spirit, have doctrine. Paul said and I’m paraphrasing, he was glad that the Christ was being published for whatever reason. He knew that even those later locked into these doctrines would still draw attention to the path, to reason, to the Way, making it available for those of honest heart that would “hear” what the spirit was offering them, even among these congregations of doctrine. The “truth” will set you free.
Traveler true the scriptures are revealed when it is time. I have noticed a few skilled ministers say they can’t believe they never saw a scripture say in Luke but now they see it and understand it.
I find the Bible faSCINATING AND REALIZE IT IS AUTHORED BY SOMEONE BEYOND OUR REALM OF EXISTENCE! A God who sometimes shows off! lol, like with Sarah and Abraham having a baby at their age.
Travelers tell me what you think about this scripture, it just puzzles me. When did this happen?
Jeremiah 4:22-26
22 “My people are fools;
they do not know me.
They are senseless children;
they have no understanding.
They are skilled in doing evil;
they know not how to do good.”
23 I looked at the earth,
and it was formless and empty;
and at the heavens,
and their light was gone.
24 I looked at the mountains,
and they were quaking;
all the hills were swaying.
25 I looked, and there were no people;
every bird in the sky had flown away.
26 I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;
all its towns lay in ruins
before the Lord, before his fierce anger.
As many as are led by the spirit, THESE are sons of God. The Jw or Bs haveno answer for the this in their club or only certain annointed people… Though the rest of the quoted scriptures you shared Jacqueline, context seems to show those who were writers of the bible or the early church brothers and sisters. It does apply to us however It was a little different in that they had just been with Jesus and was learning SO MUCH from him and the promised helper was to bring ALL things to their memory as well as that which they learned when he opened the scriptures to them. This is what WE have now. The bible?
Great observation, we can just open the Bible and check, they didn’t have his words written down just memory.
You mention you had to shut down to forget and start over.
Well I know you are aware people that have been Spiritually abused are susceptable to falling in with at least one more group before we crawl our from under religions like the witnesses and we did.
I think of it as a journey and my curiosity of how this religion got started with its “Faithful slave”, meant I had to travel that path. Now I am convinced that the foundation was faulty. Now I am done and moved on enough to answer questions about the start of this movement to others who might have questions.
The experience got me in touch with friends now to study with without coercion.
My family arrived a couple hours ago and will have tons of visitors to the next week. So I might not see comments tomorrow. My company have a party to do tomorrow. Take Care and tell your family hello.
Jacqueline,
Yes if the many could join and study the scriptures with no outside influence I think it would be of great benefit to any and all who would try. It is difficult. I had to stop reading everything including the bible to try and clear away the old teaching, (doctrine) Even the stuff I knew before I came into religion I let go if they taught the same and have or am still revisiting the ideas. God has spoken to us in these last days by his son and his apostles have given us truth led by the promised helper and spirit of truth and it is here for us in written form. Simple yet made to be difficult by those who love to lead others with the idea that God has revealed some truth to them that has not been seen in 2000 years. Why do we have so many denominations and sects? Oh yea Just said it.. ?
I totally agree that if we pray for the helper. He didn’t say He will teach you Jacqueline all things or Lee but it is addressed to those accepting Christ and peering into the Bible either alone or with one or two more (can be bigger, Jesus had 12, 70 and then thousands). I am not finding it hard as I go through the Bible Book by Book verse by verse but not topicaLLY OR (DOCTRINALLY). I see now why they liked to teach by topic, it indoctrinates! It will also remind us of things learned.
It does not say that we need books of other men, although there is a place for books. videos, pamphlets, etc, but not as the main study aid. We did only 5 min of discussing the Bible at the kingdom hall but an hour of the watchtower and other books at book study. Studies in the scriptures are not only studied religiously over and over again but quoted from in most talks and everyday plain Bible discussions. That is a clear definition of Spiritual Abuse and control. Not one of these scriptures mentions we need to study the Watchtower religiously nor Studies in the Scriptures. I think we are going to be okay. I just understand others are struggling to deprogram themselves without losing it.
John 14:26 New International Version (NIV)
26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Romans 8:26-27 — Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
John 14:16-17 — And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
John 14:26 — But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
John 16:13-15 — However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
1 Corinthians 12:13 — For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body— whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
Luke 4:18-19 — “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”
1 Corinthians 2:9-16 — But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
John 15:26 — “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
John 16:7-8 — Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
1 Corinthians 6:19 — Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?
Romans 8:14-16 — For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Matthew 10:18-20 — You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
1 John 2:20, 27 — But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. __ But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
We say what we believe is in the bible just like bible students and JW’s. At least mormons use their own book so its hard to talk scripture when scripture isnt the final athority. The apostles wrote what the spirit of understanding revealed and unless it is prophesy being interpreted then new truth is simply new understanding for one as the truth has always been. Many has messed it up is all, it was prophesied this would happen as well as that there would be many new “truths” outside of what was already given. This is not just for the joseph smiths of the world but also for the many christs and followers of him as well. I will not include all of the necessary quotations as we all know them, (reader if you do not I apologize this is not for your ears) Anybody out there like to chime in? I tire in many ways and lately I have little ability left to formulate a thought as much is bestting my family and self in satans world. Where is Greg? His input would be of great use at present. Pray for him everyone please.
Lee Anthony, drop Greg an email, maybe. We would love an update on his wife and how they are doing. I have had persons talking to me and I beg them to go to the site and say it, don’t call or write me. They have some great thoughts on all of this.
I pray they will get courage to share for all to benefit.
I don’t feel I should speak for anyone, may Holy Spirit move them to be bold.
Lee God says what he means and means what he says.
For instance, Babylon’s destruction was allegorized because it was never destroyed like Sodom. Muskets and bayonets, arrows and spears was warfare implements in centuries until the 20th century. So how could or would we absorb and follow the thoughts on Babylon from those ministers who did the best they could?
TODAY, we saw fire from heaven come down on Babylon ( Bagdad) for no reason! The Missiles and Bombs took it out. Saddam had built a palace overlooking old Babylon and was starting to erect it from the rubble there.
Bush took him out! Colin Power was hurt and resigned because there were no weapons of mass destruction! Condaleesa Rice was crushed that US soldiers died. But as Christians we froze! We witnessed prophecy in our day.
Israel, 1948 in one day!became a nation! Prophecy!
Lee Anthony, THE BIBLE ONLY, no books or watchtower and you can understand the Bible.
Some of the mentions in Revelation are technology future which would not be understood until as Daniel was told the time of the end upon which they would happen.
The Bible, not quotes from books, governing bodies or dead pastors will be my guide.
Finally I know what it means to come to Christ! You have to empty yourself and not fight his spirit indwelling within us.
People won’t believe we use just the Bible on Thursday and can feel the help from on high.
Btw: 256 cities around the world have followed these conversations in the last 10 days.
Lee Anthony, we have missed out on a lot of little nougats in the Bible. Also, the readers have a responsibility to find the scripture if they don’t see it posted. It will enrich them as they read to see if they got the correct citation.
!. Nougat: We are like Barrabas who was released although his crimes (sins) were real. Jesus died instead of him and Barrabas was free.
2. A repentant confessed sinner and an unrepentant mocking sinner. Yet he died for both and prophecies to repentant ones. Just not adding nut looking intently at the scriptures itself says a lot.
I am finding the bible is deeper than I thought.
This shouldn\\\’t have been an after thought on our part. You asked, \\\”how do we know these things?\\\” We have talked about the \\\”spirit of understanding\\\”. We have prayed for the \\\”last gift\\\” to be poured out on us for years now, regularly. It has been. Do you not believe it would give you what it says, \\\”increased mental capacity\\\”? Who cares who among the three fold cord is given an understanding. Yahweh has given it to everyone, if he\\\’s given it to one. Is there really power of awareness in the reality you exist in? We suspect that it was a flicker, a \\\”sliver in your mind\\\”, all the years you were bound by doctrine. You knew you could \\\”see\\\” further than they wanted you to. Now that you are free to \\\”peer into it\\\” look past the words and \\\”see\\\” . Listen for the \\\”ring of truth\\\”. Don\\\’t just read the Bible, walk around in it within your mind\\\’s \\\”eye\\\”, See. Be empowered by the power Yahweh has offered.
Having just read your last post we understand the intent. We read it before we wrote the above, but the above still applies.
Love, your brother and sister, learning next to you
Just reread your comment Jacqueline.
“Travelers do you know how to cite part of it then maybe link out to the full story
The full story does exist, it is in the Bible. Each post is part of a larger comment on the subject, written by us to keep track of our progress as we have gone along. If I understand you, it seems you’re looking for a comment sharing some aspect of the subject being discussed, but that is just learning, with no conclusion. The Bible is a rational consideration expressed in an ever inter linked “way”. For example, “under law” is a fairly understood subject given that the Bible states it point blank. The goal then is to understand, or in this case share why Jesus was under law, and how this affects us. If there was a question on the subject to be answered, I hope to hear it. I suppose we could have said “yep he was under law, here’s the scripture that says so”. It seems to us this approach would not have moved us along up the path. The inter connections for a subject so straight forward are easy to follow and establish. We’re beginning to get that in general people tire and lose focus after a page or two, but we are talking about the Bible here and we expect that there should be some excitement to carry us along when there is new ground to cover. It’s obvious, we hope, that most of this we covered years ago, but we hope to learn/cover “beside you” new and exciting ground. Progress is fairly rapid when you finally get a working overview, so we hoped to save our brothers and sisters some time by giving them enough to see how they can progress more quickly themselves. Within the last couple of posts we have posted the information is very straight forward. Yet if it is reasoned through one step (foot step follower) at a time it will change the reality you are experiencing in a profound “way”. There is no doctrine here. Please, it’s only a few pages, peer into it, it will do more than just “tickle your ears.
P.S. Lee Anthony, you seem upset, we are sorry. We left Doctrine long ago. We are glad it seems you are trying to do the same now brother. The “truth” is what we shared in the post. You seem to have not understood. We gave you one scripture that answered the question you had. Why would you get so upset because we gave more information than evidently you were ready to handle, others read these posts also. Again we wish you peace, brother, keep up the pursuit.
Travelers you misunderstood me I was not looking for more explanation, I am very well versed in the Bible. I was looking for a way for you to post maybe a paragraph and then say more here. So your post are not so long. The person can link out if it is housed somewhere else.
This will keep us from imposing a word limit as most websites will do.
But more explanation, no.
I am running the website and many are reading and benefiting. I don’t have the time or energy to consider deeply long comments. Plus I am really not looking to be taught at this time. I am relying on my studies in a small group and personal study with Jehovah, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
What you might be interested in might not be my interest at all and I skip those comments.
So I guess I am saying no need to address a long explanation to me just a yes I can or no I can’t link out to the place this is posted.
I hope you understand that I am running the website, the reason I might want a yes or no answer.
You say this info is printed somewhere else? Then link out after you state your subject, please. Let’s show some respect here. People can find you because I gave you a page. They click on it and you link them out after telling them a paragraph. Sorry but I must insist. We will reach our storage limit when you have it stored somewhere else. Can you do this?
Thank you.
?
To teach or to be taught? Why are we all here? What is this TRUTH that you have no one else seems to have. Please, tell us from where it has come, is it of you or is there another who teaches? Is it anew sect that we must add to the many? If many come here and seek to learn these things then they will go forth and become as have so many before them…. Let us all join together and wait and watch and find out what is in store because every eye will see and all will be witness to that which is made new in the future that is soon to come. Wether it be a year or another thousand, SOON is not the same for us as it is for God. I know this that we will appear before the judgement to answer for every word and action. This appearing is something to consider since we all get to do it, if I know not the right truth will I get to see this place? So many billions are condemned because they know not the RIGHT TRUTH. What a shame, what a sham…. Loving? Just?
Lee I read one statement you made about adding a new sect.
That is what I say when persons say where is so and so?. I point to a person on the internet with their own forum, many just need a core group to help them get over Spiritual abuse. Then like horses and the Apostles they take off running realizing Christ died for all and they don’t have to be under the thumb of a bunch of billionaire men. Each should share individually when their hearts get healed. Then we help another and another so they can take off running!
Lee Anthony
\”Under law, but not a breaker of it\”
Well we see you now understand that Jesus was under law, we agree. But this makes no difference as an under age child. Jesus was still condemned.
We understand Jesus was different as a man. We understand he did not sin. We understand he fulfilled the law. I mean four pages, really, that\’s too long. The point here: was Jesus under law. Yes. The rest just simply explains why this had to be, and connects with how that all works related to the resurrection. We tried to distill the subject, so it didn\’t look so intimidating.
Let\’s face it, if it\’s truth you are looking for and if it\’s out there to be found, it is not likely to be in a leaflet form of two pages. In the first place it took a book, the Bible, to get it down in steps that represent a distilled expression. Any further consideration that makes \”sense\” of this is going to be simple progressing to deep.
In each paragraph we gave \”under law\” is as simple to understand as you are likely to find. I appreciate that even my partner said, \”you are being vague\” when we first started to pursue together. I was explaining some of the basic framework to her. My response was, \”no, I\’m being perfectly clear, you just don\’t know enough yet to understand most of what I\’m saying\”.
I\’m sure you have a great background of information in the Bible, but if you are not going to take even the simplest shared truth as your own, how will we make progress.
\”Under law\” is not a matter to test perceptive powers on, at least not as we presented it. It is explained in simple terms in the Bible, and as far as we know the answer we gave is one most generally accepted in its literal sense. Of course the scripture we started with says he was under law in a point blank way. ramifications of it we agree are not seen by most.
We didn\’t go into such things of depth as the following:
Corruption of Blood:
Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary defines:
Corruption of Blood: The effect of attainder upon a person which bars him from inheriting, retaining, or transmitting any estate, rank or title.
Attainder:
1) Extinction of the civil rights and capacities of a person upon sentence of death or outlawry usually after a conviction of treason.
2) obs: Dishonor.
(Genesis 3:3) . . .But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘YOU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.. . . ,
Instead of listening to Yahweh and following his way, Eve expressed faith in a new god, Satan, and listened to the things said by him; her works disowned \”dishonored\” her, in her Father\’s, Yahweh\’s eye. She……
We wish you the peace you are able to find brother, look harder. We really do wish you peace.
P.S. Yes Jacqueline we could post it a paragraph at a time. I\’m at a loss as how to proceed, but we are listening and will work harder to fulfill your suggested need.
Under law, but not a breaker of it. Scripture points out the curse, christ kept it perfectly, he fulfilled it, he never broke it. He did become a curse and took sin ulon himself when he was hung upon the tree. There is much written to see and understand clearly, and much that we can go in so many different directions with out thoughts and interpretations. I will leave it there, I agree with Jacqueline on this and since no one else seems to want to talk I guess I will let it go for now. Im sure they are reading so thats the important thing. I learn daily from God when I study and I will continue in this and as my children grow I will teach then to do the same and dare not force them to learn doctrine.. Only Christ and train them to learn the character of him. ?
Please be patient this is condensed from approx. 50 pages to only 4.
(Galatians 4:4, 5) . . .But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth his Son, who came to be out of a woman and who came to be under law, 5 that he might release by purchase those under law, that we, in turn, might receive the adoption as sons.
At John 5:24 the Bible says,
“…most truly I say to you, He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life.”
Seems pretty straight forward doesn’t it. Looking at Jesus’ example we can follow the process:
He was transferred into Mary and born as a human child, a son of mankind. Jesus was born perfect, having Yahweh’s full complement of holy spirit with it’s increased mental capacity. Jesus still would not have life in the sense that he would not live forever. We’d like to discuss the transfer of the life force on which identity depends, so that the transfer of God’s son into the womb of Mary could be clear, but it’s too long for now. God’s son was to be born a corresponding ransom for Adam, in all respects as his human brothers. But In order to fit the reality he was born into he was born in “slave’s form”. This meant most likely smaller than a perfect man was in the beginning.
Jesus was born into a time when the question had been asked, so no man, perfect or otherwise, could live to time indefinite because the ransom price had not yet been paid. Although the Son of God, he had become a son of man through his birth, and as such came to be “under law”, the law of condemnation.
His mother Mary already under the law, entered the household of Joseph by marriage. Jesus, as an immature child, also entered the condemned household of Joseph his adoptive father as a dependant child. Under law a child’s stand before God who is not of the age of accountability is dependant on the head of the household. In this case Jesus had not sinned but became legally dead and condemned to God because he was now under law.
As an adult, he “found himself” by following rational thought as he used his powers of perception. He pondered reality, self evident and scriptural, he then realized (Mea Culpa) his obligation to present himself, the only perfect man, as the ransom price. Can you imagine the realization, “I am the one”. Yep that’s right Neo. In presenting himself to do God’s will, works generated by frame of mind, he then had the hope/expectation of life everlasting from the point of baptism on. He was born again, or passed from death to life. Jesus received the token of what was to come, an anointing of spirit but greater than those to come after him and he entered into the household of God, legally. He had become living to God as the first “offspring of Abraham” and the first “son of Israel” to be born again to life, or cross from a dead condition to a living one in relation to Yahweh. This is why you can be preserved “alive” in the grave. It’s a legal distinction, not a state of consciousness.
We see that although Jesus was without sin he was under law none the less because of his parents, and thus under the curse of the law. Remember that we are talking about the morality of the realities and specifically this one on earth. Yahweh had established law on earth again and everything done to save humanity had to adhere to this moral code, so Jesus had to come under law in order to deliver mankind, which was the reason Yahweh sent him. This was accomplished by his birth to Mary and his adoption by Joseph.
(Galatians 3:10-14) 10 For all those who depend upon works of law are under a curse; for it is written: “Cursed is every one that does not continue in all the things written in the scroll of the Law in order to do them.” 11 Moreover, that by law no one is declared righteous with God is evident, because “the righteous one will live by reason of faith.” (I’d add ” faith of reason”) 12 Now the Law does not adhere to faith, but “he that does them shall live by means of them.” 13 Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake.” 14 The purpose was that the blessing of Abraham might come to be by means of Jesus Christ for the nations, that we might receive the promised spirit through our faith.
Remember that Christ purchased us with the ransom price sent by his Father, Yahweh, it was God’s own son.
(Mark 12:26-27) . . .But concerning the dead, that they are raised up, did YOU not read in the book of Moses, in the account about the thornbush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham and God of Isaac and God of Jacob’? 27 He is a God, not of the dead, but of the living.. . .
In the case of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, they were declared righteous by God and as such would have life through the spirit of adoption to come, so they were considered to have life by Yahweh himself. Even though they had promises of life, they did not have the reality of it. They did not “have” the hope of the resurrection (the hope provided by the resurrection of the Christ, THE resurrection).
A person who is considered righteous by Yahweh is declared righteous. A person that believes and exercises belief in Jesus and Yahweh who sent him, is also declared righteous. These will never lose their identity/life force from that point on. You need to remember that those declared righteous like Abraham along with all mankind are kept in memorial tombs until Armageddon. Those in the memorial tombs who are remembered by Yahweh are then received by Jesus who is given authority over the grave. In the resurrection Jesus calls out those of righteous heart condition, “circumcised of heart and ear”, those who used the spirit of adoption, those declared righteous, to existence again on earth. These do not come under judgment. During the resurrection, the rest who did not call on him he leaves in the grave unconscious, under judgment for the thousand years, awaiting destruction. He does this as king having authority over the living and the dead. To have life is to have the token of the spirit of adoption or to “exist” in Yahweh’s eye. Jesus reconciled the world to God which means gave an approach to God. We must “call” on it , pursue it.
This process is why 1 John 5:1 states, “Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ has been born from God….” That is why it says at Mt 3:17 “…This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”
Having presented himself to do God’s will, exercising the belief in himself as the messiah and Yahweh as God and his Father, Jesus received his promise of a resurrection. He set out to deliver himself as the ransom price. Jesus crossed over from death to life. . Jesus was now the only begotten Son of God, a son of man, a “son of Israel” “offspring of Abraham” . These are things only an adult could establish and only this one man. As a “son of Israel” he received the promise of adoption as an “adopted son of God” for us (a legal phrase), and the spirit that goes with it.and He was legally born again, attaining a life to time indefinite in relation to Yahweh and his promise of a resurrection under this new covenant (a legal term). This of course meant his life force would be preserved “a live” in the grave until his reward in the resurrection.
At Ro 5:14 the Bible says, “all who are led by God’s spirit are God’s sons; Eph 4:6 says, “…one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all”.
These scriptures show that Yahweh became his Father “today” legally, and Jesus his son legally, when Jesus offered himself to do God’s will.
(Psalm 2:7, 8) . . .Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah; He has said to me: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your Father. 8 Ask of me, that I may give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your own possession.
If he had not presented himself, he would no longer have been covered by the stand and relationship that he had in heaven and would have died as Adam did, a corrupted man. We know and the Bible says he entered the grave and did not “see corruption”. Now that he was on earth and under the household of Joseph, he came under the curse of the law. When Jesus took a stand, he became an “offspring of Abraham” to be repurchased. However, there had not yet been a ransom price delivered to gain power over life and death.
Knowing these things you can see that Yahweh gave his only begotten son at great risk, there was the “possibility” of failure. Jesus as the only begotten son already had immortality in the relationship with his Father, he risked this for us. Gods son was transferred to earth, to an existence where he was as his brothers in all respects. God’s son did not bring with him his awareness’ from heaven, this would have made him incarnate or just taking on form as the angels did. This is the reason he had to go through the birth process and begin as we do, and “find himself” as we must.
Again, one can begin to see even more clearly how far reaching are the implications of the basic hope gained by this one resurrection, that of Jesus, the first fruit from the possibility of an out resurrection, and its relationship to the individual and the Nature of What Is… Real.
Please read and then “ponder” who you have become, expressed in the scripture below. You have become a new creation, because you are one of the only “new” things created under the son. This happens when you cross from death to life. Now a “living” member of mankind. The rest never “come” to life. How cool and unique is that.
(2 Corinthians 5:17) Consequently if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; the old things passed away, look! New things have come into existence.
Travelers do you know how to cite part of it then maybe link out to the full story?
Im familiar with the out resurrection teaching…
I have never heard that Jesus was legally dead under law, as the bible states he was without sin. No sin, no death penalty…
As for heaven I personally have never had such a desire. Life is all I care for. God will put me where ever he wants if he decides I get to live.
Those ruling with Jesus clearly do so over the earth, though new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven to the earth after its all said and done in the 1000 years. Its all pretty straight forward and a good read but too many doctrines exist on these things and its not supposed to be this way I dont think. The holy spirit leads one into truth and would not reveal one thing to one person and another to another on the same thing. Its either one way or its not. Makes one wonder how so many can be led by the spirit yet all be led to a different thought on the same subject… Hmmm…. I dont try and be correct, I read it and compare it and if it says it I believe it, If It dont say it then I dont entertain it.
Lee Anthony the Bible speaks clearly on a lot of things when it is ready for revealing. I have found if there is an agenda of a set in stone doctrine, men will allegorize and say this is a type of that or this really means this and not what it actually says. There are many types in the Bible, I know.
I am just getting to the point where I let the Holy Spirit speak and if the Bible says something I don’t ask anybody who has a different doctrine on that subject that makes them have a special place.
An example to explain what I mean is like Rev7: and the 14th says the 144,000 come from the tribes of Israel and exactly what tribes and exactly how many. Most religious men accept this and view the Church as separate.
If God went to lengths to tell me three important aspects of this group, I know he says so you don’t miss it.
A few Religions whole specialness falls apart if this is true. So because they have this agenda they steep the Bible in mystery.
I couldn’t get on board with the consecration thing meaning I have to want to go to heaven now. I want to see my mother and deceased child and siblings, aunts, etc. I do see heaven held out but not before the thousand years as I see it.
But it doesn’t matter because God and Jesus are both sitting on the thrones of rulership and they will judge and assign us to what will satisfy our every desire.
I find the Bible opening up in so many ways that I rather get into it along with other thoughts than look at TV. I really don’t need to pay for anything but youtube.
The Spirit reveals to those seeking little golden nuggets every time you open the scriptures.
I get so excited that I want to share and the scriptures say we should but not argue or insist on the point. He will let each of his servants see things in relation to their seeking I believe. Some of us have families and responsibilities. Others have more time to spend in digging. Then there is Satan attacking some so hard they can only get into the word for a little time per day but it is what sustains each of us.
I personally think God is pleased when we discuss scripture and impart a little for others to think on, file it away or go looking deeper. A personal relationship is all we need. He is a father, not this God that gets mad if we don’t follow other men’s teachings.
But I am going to take the Bible more literally now rather than all the allegories I have been forced to accept for 70 years.
Knowledge is increasing every day as Daniel was told. Take Care Lee
Lee Anthony ,
Out resurrection, yes it\\\’s the same resurrection as what people are calling the first resurrection. The JW\\\’s really promote this even though in their interlinear translation it is translated correctly under the word for word. They of course think the 144,000 are the entire point of the Bible. But to save losing large numbers they too are trying to work out a way that everybody gets saved and there is no loss of life in the coming destruction.
Resurrection: to stand before or take responsibility for one’s actions in relation to Yahweh.
People seem to miss the point that the term \\\”resurrection\\\” is not a description of an event where individuals return from the unconscious state in which they \\\”exist\\\” in the grave, to a living conscious state, to \\\”existence\\\”, where they are again conscious.
One of the aspects of the Bible that people have trouble with is that there is loss of life.
If you call on Yahweh\\\’s name through faith in Jesus you are \\\”saved\\\”, you have crossed from death to life. People have trouble with the flip side. If you do not call on God you remain legally dead, unforgiven. When we enter into the grave we all have finished what we can do to be saved. We all stand before the judgment seat and receive our reward or hope, whatever we established in our life time.
The reasons for the footstep followers\\\’ hope are twofold: It assures us that God will give us the reward of return to existence, as he did for Jesus, because we are also sons of Israel, offspring of Abraham, and we are to inherit the earth. This is described as an \\\”out resurrection\\\” reward. Secondly, we will escape the coming destruction. Remember that even Jesus was legally dead under law and had to cross from death to life on earth.
The flip side is that those who do not call on God through Jesus receive no forgiveness for their acts against God and are held responsible, unforgiven. In this state they enter into the grave where they await , unconscious, the coming destruction. They will be cast into the lake of fire and destroyed. This is the result of their resurrection, their standing before God, their reward. This reward is called as a result, a \\\”resurrection to judgment\\\”.
When God was \\\”bound\\\” by the asking of the \\\”question\\\” , \\\”why are you the one to decide right and wrong for everyone?\\\”, he had to allow this question to be considered, and a conclusion proven. This means that God cannot destroy anyone until this question is concluded, so the continued need for the grave. That is why the dead and the grave are given into Jesus\\\’ keeping until the end of the thousand year reign, and the answer is established.
Many people for some reason think they want to go to heaven. We get this. What we can\\\’t understand is there is only one event, singular, for return from the grave to existence mentioned in the Bible. One resurrection reward mentioned that is a return to \\\”existence\\\”, the one at Armageddon. It says quite clearly that everyone that hears Jesus\\\’ voice comes out of the grave to earth.
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-17) . . .Moreover, brothers, we do not want YOU to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping [in death]; that YOU may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. (Those still dead legally, not forgiven, or already in the grave in the same legal state,awaiting the coming destruction)
14For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep [in death] through Jesus God will bring with him. 15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, (both on earth alive now) will be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord. . .
Jesus descends from heaven to put in order the earth now that he has put in order the heavens. He does this by replacing the \\\”god of the air\\\” Satan with himself. As the New \\\”god of the air\\\” he establishes the new Jerusalem, using the 144,000 to rule over the earth. Pretty straight forward.
Ok from there you might try to make the meeting in the air work for ascension to heaven at some later point, except that Jesus just descended from heaven to rule, to establish himself as king over the earth, so it would have to be after his thousand year reign. Obviously we would like to go on, but we\\\’ll cut you a break.
Traveler, I read every word and will break it down piece by piece. This is interesting. You see there was so much emphasis put on heaven for a few and everybody joyly just come back and all can go well. I stopped and said I better look at this for myself something is wrong, people are going to mess up if I believe this without looking closely.
So now I am looking. I will follow this conversation with interest.
Traveler I had faith in you that you could speak on our level. I understand every word. Thanks.
If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead. (Philippians 3:11)
The Greek here is out-resurrection. It not used anywhere else in the bible that I see unless we understandit as being the same as 1st resurrection.
So is it the same resurrection as Romans 8:11, I Corinthians 15:52, and I Thessalonians 4:16? A question for travelers. I gave studied this before though most have never heard of out resurrection. You are the only one I see speak of it
Hi Jacqueline,
Rev 20:5
“The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.”
In the original it points out for the sake of the on going record that those left in the grave did not come to life by some act within Jesus’ reign, the result being that as prophesied theirs was a resurrection to judgment. The thousand years over, the last part of the “question having been answered, the dead and the grave are cast into the lake of fire. Those of the “out” resurrection are not affected by Judgment. Yes, check it in the original “language”, it is out not first. That’s just a matter of lack of understanding and no framework to arrange facts into covering the Bible. Remember this record of events is to be the “smoke ascending forever and ever” that the living carry as the answer so that it can never happen again.
(Revelation 20:5, 6) . . .(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.
Travelers, thank you so much for your insight. Much appreciated.
Hi Christopher Johns,
“I know what you mean. As a JW I never felt like I had the Holy Spirit in my life.”
Just passing through, thought you’d find this bit of info interesting. I had to establish this for the elders of my congregation once. It was and is JW’s present truth that only those of the ruling body get holy spirit. Everybody else gets its benefit by associating with the organization as it shares the understandings gained from the holy spirit through the watchtower . I know every average witness thinks they were getting holy spirit. This misconception was and is so prevalent that even some writers in the publications would state things from time to time that needed correction. Remember, the Watch Tower is written to the 144,000, so when it says in a publication that the “we” receive the holy spirit to strengthen us in times of trial, it means that the 144000 have received it and trained their followers with information that allows them to know how to handle their problems. I may have the Watch Tower still that explained this in just a couple of paragraphs. It came out in the Sunday study the day after I explained this fact to our congregation overseer. Read carefully, very few people in the organization do. As a matter of fact outside of Franz’ writings, I’ve never talked with anyone who really understood the organization’s present truth. These things were always stated in a way that would not alienate the average person, the persons “associating” with the “Christian” congregation of 144,000.
Jacqueline,
You should read it. He shows how Rutherford got the Bible students to replace individuality and Christ likeness with cheat and sales of books. How he got rid of Russell’s followers and built up the organization. It’s awesome .
I and my parents are from that era plus my grandparents and Uncles. I was even under Companies instead of congregations. I was present at the meeting that took over the companies from the Bible students to the organization.
It is little known among our Northern brothers that the South didn’t get assimilated in the thirties or forties among the black companies. This assimilation came in in the late ’50s and truly almost the seventies.
I try not to read so many books as it immerses me into something that reinforces it on the brain.
Bad memories, we have found in psychology are best, not re-hashed as it makes an imprint on the brain in the new, easily accessed portion. New pathways are created to old memories, so I am selective in my reading.
I am not just coming out of the witnesses, perhaps others on here reading might feel a need to read the book and thank you for posting it.
Mentally I have been out of the witnesses since 1990s and physically since 2009.
On our Thursday night meeting, Dave asked how many sat there for years saying we will just wait on Jehovah to clean things up? We all answered in the affirmative.
Thursday night meeting was a turning point of not being a coward and shrinking back as we discussed Hebrews 10. Although this was the Jewish converts having to be strong against the still standing Jewish Temple and their stonings, it helped me to be bold and not be the sort to shrink back.
God allowed the witness organization to proceed under Rutherford and the brothers of that time were okay with it. The one thing I mentioned to the FOJW site as I took my intellectual material and left was:
IN THE NAME OF GOD GIVE THAT FIGHT OF 100 YEARS UP! CUT THE HATE TALK AND DO SOMETHING YOURSELF TO SPREAD as THE WITNESSES DID. SOME BIBLE STUDENTS ARE FIGHTING AND REHASHING THAT OLD “WILL” STUFF 100 YEARS NOW. How sad they can’t move on and progress.
There should not be any Russell followers only Followers of our Lord and Redeemer Jesus Christ.
1Cor. 2:2 “For I decided that while I was with you I would forget everything except Jesus Christ, the one who was crucified.”
I am finished personally with the bitterness of those of the Bible Student Movement 100 year fight.