Thoughts From A Traveler

Learning about God as we go!

Hi, we’re the travelers. We thought we’d introduce ourselves in as short a manner as possible, at least for us. I had been a witness for 50 odd years, no pun. My wife had been for twenty years. I realized the hope held out in the resurrection from the grave of an existing person, Jesus, when I was about 24 and that this planet was dying. I only later realized that we were collectively going insane. You see God is willing to teach us the “ways” that lead to life. We as a kind teach less and less of what is moral or in other words, in our best interest if we want to live, to each new generation. When I and my wife explained the “hope of the resurrection” as it really is in the Bible to the brothers and the representatives of the Jehovah’s Witness organization, it resulted in many visits from one and then two elders and several committees being formed. After explaining to them the line of logic in the Bible, and their considering this, the resulting answer was always the same: “the congregations are not strong enough to hear the truth”. The strange thing is that this line of thought eventually was written in the Insight on the Scriptures volumes for the most part under the Transfer of God’s Son, although this consideration of transfer did not carry identity through the grave.

Finally, after waiting on the organization for forty or so years we sat down and applied the realization of the resurrection to the bits and pieces we had gathered from our Bible studies. We wrote for just over a year before the realizations gained from applying the original realization to the bits and pieces and the then realized connections (we might say revelations for us) were put to paper. These were extraordinary. A revelation is a revelation the first time any mind arrives at it, although getting them straight from God must be a powerful experience. Wait, do you think God repeats himself or does he speak truth into reality once for all those to find who have eyes to see and ears to hear? We could use your help brothers and sisters as we hope you all are, truly looking for truth, or in other words trying to cover more distance to allow you to draw closer to God. We know this is possible as part of his kingdom through accurate understanding. So let us travel “UP” making our minds over in the process of becoming one with God’s mind using this power that God has empowered us with, the spirit. We are not trying to convert you, as we belong to no denomination, or in other words division from the congregation that follows Jesus as we return to one with Yahweh. This congregation includes both those alive now on earth and those alive in the grave throughout all time.

So we offer this as our effort to cultivate a relationship of love with all of you. We will make clear where we stand by dealing with the “theory of the Trinity” right off the mark. We repeat that we are not trying to convert you as we belong to no denomination or division. The only congregation we belong to is the one following Jesus and it spans time.

44 Responses to Thoughts From A Traveler

  1. travelers says:

    Chris Johns

    “The out resurrection is only mentioned one time in scripts and you’ve built and entire doctrine on it.”

    Well, if as you said I’m the only one that sees a point in what I’ve said, I think “doctrine” might be a little strong brother. I do see the posture you are trying to adopt though.

    In the translation you are using it might be true that out-resurrection is only used once. In the JW Bible it is not mentioned at all. However, in their word for word, their interlinear translation, it is mentioned repeatedly.

    Really, it doesn’t matter if it is or not, reason tells you that the nature of standing before God and receiving your reward results in only one of two out comes:
    1. Return to existence out of the grave.
    The “hope” of those who have crossed from death to life and have called on the name of God and his son; those preserved “legally” alive in the grave.

    2. Left in the grave.
    Never coming to life, legally dead, waiting for the coming destruction.

    It is exciting to remember that those translating the Holy writings did not and do not have a complete understanding of their meaning. In fact, the meaning is hidden from the intellectuals and only revealed to those of honest heart.

    Even though we are talking about aliens from another dimension, their reality as well as ours is based on simple logic, truth of good or a bad nature. In fact, ours was created based on the same logic as the one they come from.

    Now it is unfortunate that so many have been blinded by a theory that no “sense” can be made of, the “theory of the trinity”, or suffered so much abuse that they no longer want anything to do with obligation of mind, such as logic, because it was used by stronger minds to enslave them to doctrine, like the organization of Jehovah’s witnesses. Remember logic is just a construct of the mind using it. This is why we are making ours over based on the logic of Yahweh.

    We’ll say it again, whatever it is, come “up” with an overview/frame work that you can fit the pieces you have into. Does one connect to another or is it just more information gathered from which no conclusion can be drawn. You remember that the Bible states that there will be the majority that will go on learning and learning, not able to draw any accurate conclusion: those on the broad way.
    In any endeavor it is necessary to have an overview of the project and what is hoped to be learned when you connect the dots. You know, the picture on the box that is so helpful.

    Really, in all the ages to find our selves in, this is the age of information, and Satan is putting more circular reasoning out there than a lifetime of pursuit could address.

    In a few keystrokes you can bring up every mention of a word or subject. When you read every scripture from all independent authors in the Bible you will arrive at an overview, if that is what you are looking for. While sometimes they might have chosen different words had they a more complete grasp of what they were to explain, it does not in any way alter the language/conceptual image meant to be conveyed by the inspired writer. That is why we are told not to argue over words, but to peer into the Bible. The conceptual images we are to piece together in order to get a clear view of our reality and relationship with God are visible behind the words.

    As it says, to each the grace/understanding God has given. Of course, this is determined by the limits of the portion of spirit we are being granted at this time. Deep logic, that is what our reality is based on, “seen” in simple steps of logic by those who have ears to hear and eyes to see, the purpose being to make our minds over.

    So “resurrection” and its resulting reward: OUT of the grave, or left IN the grave. One resurrection achieving both results, one with hope, one without hope. This is all about making our minds over to return to an approved “frame of mind”, by “calling”/pursuit of an accurate understanding of God’s will/mind, as we had in the beginning.

    We’ve decided that our house needs to have fewer rafters. So as Bro Dave suggested we’re going to spend some time rewriting what we know of the truth to put our house in order. We’re going to speak frankly here before we go though so if you are of faint heart read no further.

    God knows everything, God is in control of everything.

    This makes God responsible for everything. This is a child’s view, one who learns and learns, tickling their ears, with no reason in it, with no conclusions draw.

    I don’t care that your grandmother or wife or child was spared from cancer. I care that you say that it was God’s doing. Do you really think that God wants a person of good heart to stay in this reality longer than time and unforeseen circumstance allow. The Bible says, “because of the fear of death you remained a slave to sin all your life”. Do you really think that fairness or any relationship to the concept of kindness and compassion could be connected to the saving of one, or a hundred persons in this horrific world of suffering you exist in by a God that you say has the power to stop it now.

    I read a story about a village where the enemy came in and slaughtered everyone. One woman was found that was pregnant. They cut her belly open, then they cut off her legs and arms. The worst thing in her day was, she survived. She related having seen her entire family hacked apart with a machete.

    Yes I know that is hard to hear, but that is one of millions of stories of suffering, you know this. God is not in control, we are, Satan is, and all because we, in our turn as Adam and Eve did, question God’s right to decide right and wrong with our sin. God is bound because God can not lie. He must wait for us to come to a point where, if time was not cut short, no flesh could be saved so that a final answer is arrived at.

    God is patiently waiting for us because He has no choice. If the rest of the universe is not to be exposed to the asking and answering of this question, it must end here, in time, on earth. Give up your child’s view and reach out for maturity.

    You want to be a friend of God and show respect for your brother Jesus, then don’t say they have control of it all, they do not. However, they are trying to save the “few” that they can given the restraints they are under.

    You all have our love and hope. Please use your powers of reason to serve God in a sacred “WAY”.

    Your brother and sister, the travelers.

  2. John 14:6 says:

    Is there something more than life or death? Out resurrection is something I am familiar with, it is not an uncommon belief. Judgement is as well, though this seems to be one in the same as you explain. Those such as Lazarus were raised from sleep for what purpose exactly? If resurrection is not a raising from the dead then whats the point of any of this? Everlasting life without actual consciousness…. Everlasting death received through a judgement passed on to one who is not even conscious is a rather interesting concept. All will die, not all will live. God seeks his own begining, and mankind after thousands of years are all still complete idiots with no knowledge or ability to learn from Jesus. The simplicity of most of what Jesus taught has been diluted by all those who say NO it cant be that simple, let us make it more difficult to understand and cover it with much confusion and bold print so that the many are in fact left to question wether or not Jesus really said what he really said. Satan is a master at confusion, lies, and making us second guess our own faith. That which we seek is something that a man and woman once had and yet lost. I would rather die living a better life trying my best to follow Jesus than to live in the knowledge that I know more than the rest of mankind and because of that I will live and they will not because they are to dumb to figure it out. I love peeople even the ones who hate me because I try and treat them as did Jesus.

  3. travelers says:

    Hi John 14:6 Leg work?
    We agree it is not the God you or the majority of “Christians ” have seen in the Bible, none the less it is there. This morning we were talking about this. Isn’t it strange that so many would like any subject in the Bible to be explainable in one or two lines.

    If I’ve spent a fair amount of time reasoning through taking something apart and then putting it back together what would you expect when you ask to have me explain it in a way that makes Sense? Jesus is a simple teacher, where did you get that idea? Mankind, yourself included is still trying to figure out what every word he spoke means. Wars have and are being fought over differences of opinion on the subject. We agree that maybe everything we’ve said may not be true, but not everything we’ve pointed out is wrong. At the very least a good deal is right. Any one of the many points we’ve put forward if taken as they stand alone, would change the entire “way” of approaching understanding in the Bible.

    Even on a subject as simple and central to our hope, as resurrection, which most think means to come back from the dead, which of course it does not, people will not reason. now that is strange. Resurrection means to stand before Yahweh and receive the reward for your actions. This “standing” before God does not require consciousness. There you go, “standing”, “walking with God”, “footstep follower” “make your minds up: all terms and phrases clearly identifiable as conditions of or results of the process of reason. But do most say “gee I never thought about it that way”? No, they seem bothered that they never thought of it themselves.
    A true understanding of Resurrection explains why the grave remains within Jesus’ kingdom until the end of the thousand year reign. Those in these graves received a resurrection to judgment, which means they did not call on Christ and did not receive an “out resurrection”. They remained in the grave and did not hear the call from Jesus up on his descent from heaven, to come out. So most of humanity does not even understand the “hope of the resurrection” still we call them brother and sister.

    We have never carried on a face to face with elder, minister or preacher with Bible in hand where they did not arrive at the same conclusions. In every case they said the general population of “Christians” are not strong enough to hear the truth. You would think that knowing that most people on these sites connected with the Bible, having at the very least hundreds of hours of Bible reading, could put some of this together without us spelling out every scripture.

    Yes, this is a fact. What we have presented is just a very simple, short, expression of these trains of thought. We presented these in a shortened form with the belief that with a minimal effort those reading should be able to “see”. The majority of times, now somewhere in the thousands, the bulk of what we are pointing out in the scriptures has not been challenged. At least not with an opposing train of thought that shows the flaws in our train of thought. Instead it just ends with: “Why you, nobody else knows this?” or “it’s too long”, “or its too deep”. Most of the time these statements coming from contributors that have posted many, many, if not hundreds of pages themselves. But because they presented nothing in most cases “new” they are not challenged but held up with respect as knowing something. If you are a true pursuer of truth why would it matter where or who a new thought drawn from the Bible comes. We assume that’s exactly what you are looking for since mankind has made little progress in their understanding of the “narrow path”, as apposed to the broad “way where anything might be right.

    The Bible does show what we are saying, it is in there clear as day. For some reason people seem to think we dream this stuff up. Yet in the world of serious thinkers, most of these ideas are not new. You don’t have to search too hard on the internet to run into noted world scholars like Professor N.T. Wright who discuss and have written books about subjects such as “no one is going to heaven”. It is historically known that neither the Jews nor the disciples thought they were going to heaven. Even Jesus had to be invited to heaven because the “out resurrection” he secured for himself and mankind was not the reward of going to heaven, but return to consciousness/living/existence from the grave, to Earth. Abraham and his seed were to inherit the earth. These facts are a given in the scholarly world, a matter of written law and prophesy in the Bible with no interpretation required.

    Yes, I see that many of you have seen through the “doctrine” of your past denomination/division from Jesus’ congregation. But let’s face it, each of these was started by a strange thinker who was given some new insight that, in fact, turned out to be true. Unfortunately those of less mental capacity turned these new insights into “doctrine” and formed a religious division. I like that Russell, Franz, and most of the serious thinkers acknowledge that this progress was real and took these insights as their own, even though not known by the average population. Franz was disfellowshipped when he tried to bring some of these out to the general population. Does this surprise us? No, the man of thinking ability is hated, another little fact that seems to have escaped the average person right.

    (Proverbs 14:17) . . .but the man of thinking abilities is hated. . .

    The average population rejects the whole that they’ve learned because they have “seen” through some aspect of the train of thought called “their religion”. On leaving such a persuasion usually they reject all they’ve heard because men inside these persuasions abused their authority, either in a mental or a physical way. This abuse is within every aspect of humankind’s endeavors, it is not new. It is not a reason to give up truth made in progress “up” the path.

    “Strange thinkers” presented credible proof in the Bible that what they were saying was in fact true. Men of lesser mental capacity used these insights to form “doctrine” which they could use as personal power. Did the average person really think through the whole line of thought of these strange thinkers, or just get impressed with the fact that the person presenting it to them knew more than they did and made them feel hopeful? Or when they attempted to reason through these presented trains of thought they found they were also threatened. If this is so, and they gave in to the threats or were just impressed the whole time, when they left the persuasion, they left with nothing. Has this happened to most? Looking at the number of people leaving religion we’d say probably. So what is used as a process of reason, and on what basis after you’ve rejected main stream?

    We’re sorry we have not been able to offer you or many help in line with our love, but we have expected this from the beginning. So our love is with you all the same and we hope that your “way” leads you to a relationship based on accurate knowledge of Yahweh and the one he sent forth, Jesus.

    (1 Timothy 2:3, 4) . . .This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4 whose will is that all sorts of men should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth.

    (1 John 5:20) . . .But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us intellectual capacity that we may gain the knowledge of the true one.. . .

    (John 17:1-3) . . .Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, 2 according as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life. 3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.

  4. jacqueline says:

    John 14:6, I have not read all that Travelers have written but your summary is easy to understand and this is all I can say on this subject of Travelers questioning the ALMIGHTY GOD.
    I am weighing in because others are not, but it is a senseless conversation for me as a Christian and I can’t add anything else because I don’t question GOD.
    Others may, however, do so but I don’t.
    It doesn’t mean this conversation is an error, NO, I say I don’t personally have any questions about who God is and where he came from. I didn’t know which one to reply to on Travelers comments as they are difficult and long.
    I hope someone else weighing in with you will help.

    There is nothing God can’t do (except what goes against His nature) and there is nothing He doesn’t know. He has the ability and power to do whatever is His desire. He can heal the sick, give sight to the blind, and bless all who follow Him. He has raised people from the dead and promises eternal life to the faithful. He can move mountains and calm the seas. (All done thru Jesus Christ. Jesus said his Father gave him this power) He can touch your heart and wants your love. These are just a few of God’s infinite attributes as He Himself is timeless and limitless in every way.
    God is Infinite Bible Verses – His Attributes
    God is Timeless:

    Genesis 1:1 – “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”
    Revelation 1:8 – “I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is and who was, and who is to come. The Almighty.”
    Revelation 4:8d – “Even under his wings, Day and night they never stop saying: ‘Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty, who was, and is, and is to come.’”
    All Understanding:
    Psalm 147:5 – “Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit.”
    Isaiah 40:28 – “Do you not know? Have you not heard? The Lord is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth, He will not grow tired or weary and his understanding no one can fathom.”
    Omniscient:
    Proverbs 15:3 – “The eyes of the Lord are everywhere, keeping watch on the wicked and the good.”
    Psalm 33:13 – “From heaven the Lord looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth…”
    1 Chronicles 28:9 – “…for the Lord searches every heart, and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, we will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.”
    Omnipotent:
    Genesis 17:1 – “When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to him and said, ‘I am God Almighty’…”
    Jeremiah 32:17 – “Ah, Sovereign Lord, you have made the heavens and the earth by your great power and outstretched arm. Nothing is too hard for you.”
    Matthew 19:26 – “Jesus looked at them and said. ‘With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.’”
    Omnipresent:
    Joshua 1:5 – “No one will be able to stand up against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you. I will never leave you nor forsake you.”
    1 Chronicles 16:34 – “Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good; his love endures forever.”
    Psalm 33:11 – “The plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.”
    Hebrews 13:5 – “Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have. Because God said, ‘Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.’”

  5. John 14:6 says:

    To reason… Thought leads to action, I do t think anyone would doubt that when you speak of this way of living, this mind of christ and reasoning, that no one would disagree. Holding onto and growing the proper train of thought is no doubt the WAY to put on the mind of Christ. I think you might speak on it a bit simpler with Jesus own words as he was a bit simpler with his teaching. As for the reading, I have read it all 3 times. It is not that I dont understand per se, it is that I do not see it in scripture. Those you have sighted say something other than what the interpretation implies. The very concept would mean that God had a begining, if he was not aware, but was, he was not at all, until he knew he was. The point being if he was not, then something caused him to be that was before him otherwise evolution would make sense. It does not fit… This God is not the God I know from the bible. Seeking his own begining, or an understanding of his very existence…. Would anyone else care to chime in on this subject? It is this topic alone that I have chosen to spend time speaking here on the site….

  6. travelers says:

    FOOTSTEP FOLLOWER

    Or Following the Steps of Reason Laid Out by Jesus

    Cover Distance, Walk with, Path, Way

    (Isaiah 48:16-18) . . .And now the Sovereign Lord Yahweh himself has sent me, even his spirit. 17 This is what Yahweh has said, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel: “I, Yahweh, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit [yourself], the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk 18 O if only you would actually pay attention [Think, then act on] to my commandments!. . .

    This statement did not suggest a way of walking physically, such as a swagger or strut.

    We know it to be our responsibility to use our power of reason to cultivate a relationship with Yahweh, or as the scriptures say, draw closer to God. Each time we go through the steps of reason and take a stand, we draw closer to the frame of mind of God. The rational conclusion of a logical train of consideration, when taken as our present truth, or truth as we understand it thus far is called a stand. If we do this over and over we are said to be walking with Yahweh. Since Jesus revealed to us the blocks of information to take us up this way of thinking, we are said to be footstep followers of Jesus. We must reason on our reality, the self evident truth in it, and the truth revealed by Jesus in the Bible Just as he did although he reasoned on the sacred writings not what we call the Bible.

    The nation of Israel had lost their ability to draw closer to Yahweh and the ability to see farther up the path or Way. This happened because they had turned away from the pursuit of truth (“that which Yahweh also pursues”). They had begun to associate ideas or WAYS of thinking and the generated life styles that were against what they knew to be stands necessary to serve God. This corruption of their thought process was eroding their gained power of reason (trained perceptive powers) making them “dull of hearing”. The same process tried to creep into the Christian congregations from time to time. In the following scripture we can see the connection. This method of associating right ideas with wrong ideas is the device that Satan uses. It is an attempt to connect the idea of no resurrection from the dead with the ideas that allowed a person to be baptized and cross from death to life, i.e., with the foundation truths at least in Jesus day. This attempt stopped the use of, or trained habit of thinking things through in a rational process based on the blocks of information or stands that convinced one to get baptized or be a Jew in the first place.

    (1 Corinthians 15:29-33) 29 Otherwise, what will they do who are being baptized for the purpose of [being] dead ones? If the dead are not to be raised up at all, why are they also being baptized for the purpose of [being] such? 30 Why are we also in peril every hour? 31 Daily I face death. This I affirm by the exultation over YOU, brothers, which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord. 32 If, like men, I have fought with wild beasts at Eph′e•sus, of what good is it to me? If the dead are not to be raised up, “let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we are to die.” 33 Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits. [Note the plural form of association].

    *** w10 5/15 p. 22 Continue to Exercise Your Perceptive Powers ***
    When explaining Jesus’ position as “a high priest according to the manner of Melchizedek,” Paul wrote: “Concerning him [Jesus] we have much to say and hard to be explained, since you have become dull in your hearing [UNREASONABLE]. For, indeed, although you ought to be teachers in view of the time, you again need someone to teach you from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God; and you have become such as need milk, not solid food.”—Heb. 5:10-12.

    (1 Corinthians 15:12-19) . . .Now if Christ is being preached that he has been raised up from the dead, how is it some among YOU say there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised up. 14 But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and our faith is in vain. 15 Moreover, we are also found false witnesses of God, because we have borne witness against God that he raised up the Christ, but whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. 16 For if the dead are not to be raised up, neither has Christ been raised up. 17 Further, if Christ has not been raised up, YOUR faith is useless; YOU are yet in YOUR sins. 18 In fact, also, those who fell asleep [in death] in union with Christ perished. 19 If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied.

    Paul shows his frustration with these men, brothers, who are so easily mislead. These men hold trains of thought that are clearly irrational, i.e.,”If the dead are not to be raised up”, or in other words, “HAVE CEASED TO EXIST” as the organization of Jehovah’s witness’s puts it, attempting to hold these ideas along with the foundation truths they took as a stand and were baptized in public witness of.

    We are aware that this scripture is used in the present truth by the JW’s to mean persons who are bad associations, but when examining the scriptures more closely it is easily seen that Paul was speaking about ideas, i.e., the dead not being raised, or no resurrection from the dead, which we consider in another section. This is still one of the ideas that persists in JW’s present truth, no resurrection from the dead. Instead the organization uses a re-creation from the living mind of God. People in the congregation were trying to tie unreasonable trains of thought to reasonable ones. This association of false reason with the way of reason that they normally used as habit, was the problem being discussed by the term associations, not interpersonal connections. Given time, these unreasonable thoughts would be able to destroy the way in which they had been trained to think, and the habit of reason (remember the steps) that was giving them the ability to make progress (remember, misled). If continued, these false associations would cause them to have dulled senses and thus they would not be able to hear the ring of truth, causing them to lose sight of the path.

    It helps to keep track of the fact that the Roman Empire was not afraid of a life style, but a way of thinking. This can be seen by reflecting on the fact that people had to be questioned or interrogated to find out their way of thinking; it was not outwardly visible to the extent that it could be identified as a way of living. It was not that they belonged to any national group or political persuasion. This “mind of Christ” is a pursuit of the “mind of God” and as we come to understand parts of the information that Christ left us, we make progress, cover distance in the pursuit to acquire the “mind of Christ” and thus the mind of God, which puts us in union with Christ, as he is in union with the Father. Remember that as you started to make yourself over, you started to learn to think about things in the right way, and that caused the changes in your life.

    Jesus had a life inclination that allowed him to live without sin, but he still had to find the true way, the path, Yahweh’s way of reason, by reasoning on self evident truth and the scriptures. That is why it states that when he found himself (mea culpa), or as an adult reached a level of understanding that showed him who he was and what he was to do, he then presented himself to do Yahweh’s will. After this event he began telling his disciples to follow the same steps of reason that he had followed, “follow me”, and find themselves/save themselves through him or through his explanation. This is the approach to becoming a footstep follower. This is the process that allowed the true Jews that Paul talks about in Romans to again make progress up the path.

    Becoming a footstep follower is the process of setting your paths straight (held considerations), and standing erect to serve Yahweh with your powers of reason. We feel the need to emphasize this concept of footstep follower because the whole process of returning to a healthful way of thinking, or Yahweh’s way of thinking, is related to making our minds over. While it does, in time, generate a life style, it would miss the main point to emphasize the life style and not the cause of it, or as the saying goes, “putting the cart before the horse”. The criminal on the stake next to Christ was set on the path by the things heard and observing self evident truth happening in front of him. He acknowledged this way of thinking publicly as the right way and his belief that Jesus was the messiah.

    Also, if you are going to make disciples into footstep followers of the Christ and not of your own thinking as commanded, you yourself have to know clearly how this is achieved. The training of others to “make their minds over” could never be achieved by suggesting that they take up living by some form of life style or by joining an organization.

    (John 14:6-7) . . .Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If YOU men had known me, YOU would have known my Father also; from this moment on YOU know him and have seen him.”

    When the term disciple is used, it refers to a person trained in this practice of reasoning, according to Christ’s WAY of thinking, who has taken up the practice of this process of reasoning. A disciple is a person who draws closer to Yahweh’s frame of mind through reason, sees or comes to know and then follows the direction or action indicated. He has been orally taught, has received the spirit of understanding and is now a taught one of Yahweh through this gift.

    As the JW organization rightly points out, our relationship truly is between ourselves and Yahweh, only needing a mediator, Jesus. The responsibility to reason deliberately and to be reasonable is set out for us in scriptures such as:

    (Romans 12:1). . . Consequently I entreat YOU by the compassions of God, brothers, to present YOUR bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason.

    (Ecclesiastes 7:24-25) . . .Who can find it out? 25 I myself turned around, even my heart did, to know and to explore and to search for wisdom and the reason of things, . . .

    (Acts 17:16-17) . . .Now while Paul was waiting for them in Athens, his spirit within him came to be irritated at beholding that the city was full of idols. 17 Consequently he began to reason in the synagogue with the Jews . . .

    (1 Peter 3:15) 15 But sanctify the Christ as Lord in YOUR hearts, always ready to make a defense before everyone that demands of YOU a reason for the hope in YOU. . .

    (Acts 17:11) . . .Now the latter were more noble-minded than those in Thes•sa•lo•ni´ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.. . .

    (Ecclesiastes 12:9-10) . . .And besides the fact that the congregator had become wise, he also taught the people knowledge continually, and he pondered and made a thorough search, that he might arrange many proverbs in order. 10 The congregator sought to find the delightful words and the writing of correct words of truth.

    (Deuteronomy 32:29) . . .O that they were wise! Then they would ponder over this. They would consider their end afterward.

    (1 Timothy 4:15-16). . . Ponder over these things; be absorbed in them, that your advancement may be manifest
    to all [persons]. 16 Pay constant attention to yourself and to your teaching. . .

  7. travelers says:

    John 14:6 Sorry if you found the explanation difficult. Try taking it a paragraph or so each morning when you are fresh. It does make sense. But if you decide not to, we hope you hold on to some of it and keep on looking at the Bible, the rest will arrive. “Before” as a condition of awareness/being means inherently not aware. It is true you can exist without existence. So what God is exactly and how he arrived or became aware is a question even he has no answer for. This framework of reality is the only one that reason can make sense of . Good for you you’ve never believed in the theory of the trinity. I have yet to find any person outside of a scholar who had a good understanding of it, even though literally millions upon millions state they do believe it, i.e. Catholics.

  8. John 14:6 says:

    Tao Te Ching…. Sorry… Typing on a small screen is not easy at times

  9. John 14:6 says:

    Ok 1st, I dont think anyone on this site believes the trinity..
    When I was born I was not quite aware until I have a memory of being aware. 1st memory…. However though one may not remember one is still aware of being alive just not having the ability to formulate a thought nor understand the concept of reality. I don’t think the bible teaches God was never unaware nor don’t I see it stated anywhere that he is not the creator of all that is. Everything came from something to the human mind but where did God come from? Are you saying that he was energy that became self aware and then decided to be God? Stargate…. Like the replicators.. cool.
    Lots of words, but too many I would say as have many before me. Most people loose the ability or interest in continuing a dialogue with you because the words are too many and simplicity is lost. I study the hebrew and greek word meanings and find it an easier to understand subject. I once studied Taoism for a couple of years. This reminds me of the Tao te Ching. content://media/external/file/5758Sorry…

  10. jacqueline says:

    To John 14:6′ thanks for letting us know which poster you were referring to.
    I am on Travelers page now. Click on the page then go to the bottom and post.
    Hopefully travelers will explain themselves as to what they really believe.
    They will notice you addressed them.

  11. travelers says:

    Noticing your comments that refer to going to heaven, we would note that only a handful of scriptures can be used to suggest that anyone goes to heaven. These only do so if one does not have a working framework to explain why all of this is happening. Much like the theory of the trinity that is believed by millions, if not billions to be in the Bible, when in fact it is easily shown historically that it is not, the idea that everyone goes either to heaven or hell persists in the face of logic, or maybe lack of it.

    The approved frame of mind was lost by Adam and Eve. They were to fill the earth, there was no mention of going to heaven. We have received the hope of an “out resurrection to earth to complete the task Adam and Eve cannot. How mankind all of a sudden decided we are going to heaven is again an historical fact, but most importantly a logical consideration that should be simple to establish. We see that once set free from the world of politics and religion it does not mean that we are set free from all the doctrine we have been inculcated with.

    We would point out again that at least until Armageddon no one is called out of the grave. When this does happen, the “out resurrection” as it is called, is only to earth. Those called out along with those still living at that time receive their full adoption, and with it the full complement of spirit that goes with the “token” they have already received in the event called “twinkling”. All sons of Israel/sons of God are then present. From among them some hear the upward call to join Jesus in the “air” to rule earth, since there is no mention of them going or returning to heaven with Jesus to rule. Jesus has descended to establish rule over the earth so we can assume that “upward call” means that they (144,000) alone “see” the plan of rule and their part in it. They alone receive this “higher” awareness for the purpose of serving the rest of their brothers and sisters, as kings and priests. Those who hear the “upward call” meet Jesus to establish a new “air” of rule contrasted to Satan’s corrupted, corrupting overbearing air of influence as the old “god of the air” of this system. We fittingly have a saying “he’s taking on airs” referring to a corrupted sense of self importance. We know that this frame of mind comes from their father, Satan.

    All of This happens not in the heaven that God exist in, seeing that Jesus has descended from heaven, but in one of the heavens, the air.

    *** it-1 p. 1059 Heaven ***
    The Hebrew sha•ma′yim (always in the plural), which is rendered “heaven(s),” seems to have the basic sense of that which is high or lofty. (Ps 103:11; Pr 25:3; Isa 55:9

    *** it-1 p. 1061 Heaven ***
    Even as the “earth” can refer to a society of people (Ps 96:1; see EARTH), so, too, “heavens” can symbolize the superior ruling power or government over such “earth.” The prophecy presenting the promise of “new heavens and a new earth,” given through Isaiah, was one dealing initially with the restoration of Israel from Babylonian exile. Upon the Israelites’ return to their homeland, they entered into a new system of things. Cyrus the Great was used prominently by God in bringing about that restoration. Back in Jerusalem, Zerubbabel (a descendant of David) served as governor, and Joshua as high priest. In harmony with Jehovah’s purpose, this new governmental arrangement, or “new heavens,” directed and supervised the subject people. (2Ch 36:23; Hag 1:1, 14) Thereby, as verse 18 of Isaiah chapter 65 foretold, Jerusalem became “a cause for joyfulness and her people a cause for exultation.”
    Peter’s quotation, however, shows that a future fulfillment was to be anticipated, on the basis of God’s promise. (2Pe 3:13) Since God’s promise in this case relates to the presence of Christ Jesus, as shown at verse 4, the “new heavens and a new earth” must relate to God’s Messianic Kingdom and its rule over obedient subjects. By his resurrection and ascension to God’s right hand, Christ Jesus became “higher than the heavens” (Heb 7:26) in that he was thereby placed “far above every government and authority and power and lordship . . . not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.”—Eph 1:19-21; Mt 28:18.

    Jesus who descends to the vicinity of the earth to take over as the new “god of the air” calls the 144,000 to form the New Jerusalem. Those who hear an upward call are from the sons of Israel as a whole. “We all are changed” but only 144,00 hear the call upward. They, along with all of the sons of Israel, are the real Jews (us). Real Jew is just another way of saying circumcised of heart and ear, us. A number of these,144,000 are chosen from us by Jesus to share rule with him over the earth in the new Jerusalem that is to serve God and us. These (144,000) share a one part inheritance with their brother Jesus, rule over the earth. Flesh and blood did not inherit the (K)ingdom of God, Jesus did on ascension to heaven at the invitation of Yahweh. He received kingship over the heaven and earth sitting on Yahweh’s thrown, doing so until he hands it the kingdom back in its original order to Yahweh. Those of the 144,000 share only in the one part inheritance of Jesus’ kingdom, lower case “k”, as brothers also having the spirit of adoption along with Jesus. It is because of this spirit that it can be said “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom. This inheritance order was foreshadowed in the Law. Like us, those with the upward call have put on a complete suit of incorruptible clothing, no longer being naked before God. This “stand” is made possible by receiving the “token of adoptive spirit” while we are alive to start making our minds over. Those in the grave alive to God receive this through their out resurrection as declared righteous and it is then completed at Armageddon when they, along with those still alive receive the balance of the adoption, a full complement of spirit, during an event called the “twinkling”. Remember Jesus is king over the living and the dead. Having a full adoption and the spirit that goes with it we all “put on” immortality in our relationship with Yahweh our Father and along with this have become inheritors as Abraham was promised, of the earth. Only Yahweh “has” immortality.

    (1 Timothy 6:13-16) . . .In the sight of God, who preserves all things alive, and of Christ Jesus, who as a witness made the fine public declaration before Pontius Pilate, I give you orders 14 that you observe the commandment in a spotless and irreprehensible way until the manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 This [manifestation] the happy and only Potentate will show in its own appointed times, [he] the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see. To him be honor and might everlasting. Amen.

    It should be noted here that Jesus has become the “Amen” rather than the “word of God” as he once was.

    (1 Corinthians 15:50-57) . . .However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting producing death is sin, but the power for sin is the Law. 57 But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. . .

    We will soon post a consideration of “Tent” in which we trace the making of the mind over using the “token” of adoptive spirit. The end result is a permanent abode, a body, Your body, that has put on incorruptible clothing and within this process put on immortality in relation to Yahweh, making this a permanent abode. This includes a consideration of how we become living stones, built around the corner stone of Jesus to form the temple of God, part of the House of God. Jesus, on ascending to heaven, requests God to pour out the “spirit of understanding”, the “comforter”, so that our abodes become mansions with the gained adornment of insights now realized using this new ability to peer into the deep things of God.

    We are posting this to be “up”- building. We know that many have had the hope that they will go to heaven, even though they have no reason for going there. Jesus and his disciples did not entertain this hope for mankind in general to go to heaven. Jesus knew he would go his way back to where he had originated, heaven, when he was called to ascend by his Father . In doing so Jesus would preserve our citizenship in his earthly kingdom, secure in heaven, in him, as our high priest and king.

    Although Franz and his writing team were constrained by the notion that the 144,000 anointed were going to heaven, an organizational view they had to adhere to, they still manage to bring to light some very interesting points that the general population of Bible students may not have considered. We have included some of these below.

    *** it-1 pp. 995-997 Great Crowd ***
    GREAT CROWD

    Their Identification. The key to the identification of the “great crowd” is found within the description of them in Revelation chapter 7 and in obviously parallel passages. Revelation 7:15-17 speaks of God as ‘spreading his tent over them,’ of their being guided to “fountains of waters of life,” and of God’s wiping “every tear from their eyes.” At Revelation 21:2-4 we find parallel expressions: ‘God’s tent being with mankind,’ his ‘wiping every tear from their eyes,’ and ‘death being no more.’ The vision there presented is concerning persons not in heaven, from where the ‘New Jerusalem comes down,’ but on earth, among mankind.
    This poses the question: If the “great crowd” are persons who gain salvation and remain on earth, how could they be said to be ‘standing before God’s throne and before the Lamb’? (Re 7:9) The position of ‘standing’ is sometimes used in the Bible to indicate the holding of a favored or approved position in the eyes of the one in whose presence the individual or group stands. (Ps 1:5; 5:5; Pr 22:29, AT; Lu 1:19) In fact, in the previous chapter of Revelation, “the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person” are depicted as seeking to hide themselves “from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” (Re 6:15-17; compare Lu 21:36.) It thus appears that the “great crowd” is formed of those persons who have been preserved during that time of wrath and who have been able to “stand” as approved by God and the Lamb.
    The Lamb’s guiding them to “fountains of waters of life” finds a parallel at Revelation 22:17, which says: “The spirit and the bride keep on saying: ‘Come!’ And let anyone hearing say: ‘Come!’ and let anyone thirsting come; let anyone that wishes take life’s water free.” The “bride” is clearly identified in the Scriptures as the anointed Christian congregation, espoused to the heavenly Bridegroom, Christ Jesus. (Eph 5:25-27; 2Co 11:2; Re 19:7-9; 21:9-11) The invitation to “take life’s water free” presented by the heavenly “bride” class is obviously open to an unlimited number of persons, “anyone that wishes.” Likewise unnumbered are the “great crowd,” the vision at Revelation 7:9 thereby harmonizing with that at Revelation 22:17.
    The sum of the evidence, therefore, points to the “great crowd” as representing all those persons who are not of the heavenly “bride” class, or 144,000 sealed ones, but who stand approved at the time of the “great tribulation” and are preserved alive on earth.

    Now if Franz had not had to adhere to the organizational view of the 144,000 going to heaven, or being the only ones anointed, they would have seen that we all are anointed by the knowledge shared from the Father by Jesus.

    (1 John 2:20) . . .And YOU have an anointing from the holy one; all of YOU have knowledge.

    and would have also in this realized it’s not all about the 144,000 but about all of humanity returning to God through the process of making their minds over. Now as we’ve seen Franz in his later letters/book revealed that he knew a great deal that he did not share to protect his position as head of the writing team. This is possibly a good thing in that he and those searching the scriptures with him found and wrote a great deal that directly shows the present truth of the witness’s, if your still dealing with being wounded by them, are easily shown to be wrong. I hope that you’ve reached a point being freed from this world that you simply use the insights to cover distance, to draw closer to God, which I feel really was Franz and his teams goal all along.

  12. jacqueline says:

    Travelers thank you for commenting and for your prayers. Most persons o this site read and sometimes comment. We let persons post their thoughts. My goal is to convince myself and listen to other views. I realize whether I get it right or not is not why I am saved. Jesus did that by dying faithfully as our redeemer and ransomer. It is done, and every human that has ever lived will be resurrected. During the Millenium learn, and during judgment day after that, when God is at one again with man, we will be judged. That is the short of what I see. I am not deciding where God will decide to put me individually, just glad to be able to get to him through Christ now.
    Our Memorial celebration was faith strengthening. Take care both of you

  13. travelers says:

    We’re glad you are doing better!

    Well it seems our ideas about the thousand years are a little different. We believe that at the twinkling a change occurs, when those receiving an “out resurrection” to earth, along with those still living on the earth all receive the rest of their inheritance, the remaining complement of adoptive spirit. This awaking of our minds through the greatly increased mental capacity allows us to “see” clearly, to know in a complete way our relationship and responsibilities to God; no more sin.

    Jesus ascends to heaven in a new form with the full complement of adoptive spirit to inherit the kingdoms (note lower case k) of heaven and earth.

    (1 Corinthians 15:50-57) . . .However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom neither does corruption, inherit incorruption.

    Remember, “token of adoptive spirit” making our minds over with the “incorruptible apparel”.

    51 Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting producing death is sin, but the power for sin is the Law. 57 But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!

    (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) . . .Moreover, brothers, we do not want YOU to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping [in death]; that YOU may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. 14 For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep [in death] through Jesus God will bring with him. 15 For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them (all happens on earth), be caught away in clouds (great a cloud of witnesses ) to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord. 18 Consequently keep comforting one another with these words.

    Here we see Jesus coming down from heaven to establish his (k)ingdom on earth. Yahweh resurrects the great “cloud” of witnesses in the out resurrection and gives them along with the living the complete inheritance of adoptive spirit, the twinkling event. With Jesus as their king they take control of the “air” General frame of mind on earth. The New Jerusalem, made up of 144,000 will be established over the earth to rule the twelve tribes, now resurrected to earth. Satan is no longer “god of the air”. In this “way” we will be with Jesus and he with us forever.

    (Hebrews 12:1-3) . . .So, then, because we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also put off every weight and the sin that easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 as we look intently at the Chief Agent and Perfecter of our faith, Jesus. For the joy that was set before him he endured a torture stake, despising shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Indeed, consider closely the one who has endured such contrary talk by sinners against their own interests, that YOU may not get tired and give out in YOUR souls.

    When Jesus ascended into heaven, according to the record “a cloud caught him up from their vision.” (Ac 1:9) The disciples did not see Jesus riding away on a cloud, but rather the cloud obscured their vision of him. If you reference cloud/clouds in the Bible it does not take too long to see that it represents a group with a certain awareness level. They will “see” the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory,” and Revelation’s statement: “He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him.” (Lu 21:27; Mt 24:30; Re 1:7) In past cases clouds represented invisible presence, but observers could “see” the meaning with their mental “eyes”. In the scripture below we can see that men without awareness and with uncircumcised hearts are described as waterless clouds. We look forward to following the interesting trail of water. This possibly “water of life” comes to earth in slave’s form, Jesus, and then rises in the minds of his followers, or not. At least it is one more interesting lead to understanding frame of mind.

    (Jude 11-13) . . .Too bad for them, because they have gone in the path of Cain, and have rushed into the erroneous course of Ba′laam for reward, and have perished in the rebellious talk of Ko′rah! 12 These are the rocks hidden below water in YOUR love feasts while they feast with YOU, shepherds that feed themselves without fear; waterless clouds carried this way and that by winds; trees in late autumn, [but] fruitless, having died twice, having been uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea that foam up their own causes for shame; stars with no set course, for which the blackness of darkness stands reserved forever.

    When Jesus came to earth, with all the identifications of the Messiah, the Jews or at least those calling themselves Jews, selfishly refused to acknowledge him because they demanded as a proof of his Messiahship that he literally fulfill the vision at Daniel 7:13,14, where the Son of man is shown coming with the clouds of the heavens before the Ancient of Days, Jehovah God, to receive his kingdom. They confused his presence in Kingdom power with his first coming. He told them that no such sign would be given them.—Lu 11:29.

    (Daniel 7:13, 14) . . .“I kept on beholding in the visions of the night, and, see there! with the clouds of the heavens someone like a son of man happened to be coming; and to the Ancient of Days he gained access, and they brought him up close even before that One. 14 And to him there were given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him. His rulership is an indefinitely lasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin.

    As far as learning, that goes on forever, as it would have for Adam and Eve had they not fallen. “Fallen” frame of mind opposed to “stand erect”, elevated frame of mind. God pursues truth, we must also. We cross from death to life in our relationship with our Father when we receive the token of adoption. We begin the process of making our minds over now with a token of adoptive spirit and begin to stand erect. At the twinkling we receive the full complement of spirit, our inheritance as adopted children of God. This allows us to finish putting on the incorruptible apparel, and along with this immortality in our relationship with our Father. We are no longer naked in the “sight” of God. Yep, frame of mind again, approved.

    This is the process of going from an unapproved frame of mind given to us by Adam and Even who had no spirit to pass on to us, to an approved frame of mind given to us by our adopted Father through increased mental capacity achieved by our new inheritance the “spirit of adoption”.

    As we said earlier we are working on a consideration of the temporary “tent”, our body of “slaves form”. We will consider the process of its change to a permanent dwelling involved in the process of making our minds over. This is achieved through the effect of the adoptive spirit.

    Jesus on ascending to heaven asked his Father to pour out the “Spirit of understanding” on us. This comforter allows us, who now have our “token of adoptive spirit”, to use this last gift, the spirit of understanding. The spirit of understanding makes our bodies over completely at the twinkling. Our minds are so greatly enhanced that it makes our dwellings “mansions”. Our house, now a mansion, becomes one living stone in the house of God, his temple. Each new realization is an adornment in this mansion. Our citizenship is reserved in the heavens, now in the keeping of our king Jesus. On his return to earth he will establish us forever as citizens of earth in his earthly kingdom.

    We realized long ago that the chances of finding anyone who would really want to reason in this time of the end was slim at best. Given the fact that you have already put much time into responding, we would not feel hurt if you left it to others . We hope for your full recovery, given time to heal Jacqueline. We certainly understand the stress that can come from these considerations. Please, at least pace yourself, we would hate to lose you right now, even to the lord.

    You are in our prayers sister.

  14. jacqueline says:

    Travelers, that is the name of a booklet “How to Study the Bible and have it make sense”. I was just emphasizing that John 17:3 to get everlasting life would be a future fulfillment scripture when the real knowledge is available for man to take in.
    Right now we are on the path but this is not Judgement Day as I see from Scripture. The Church will have righteousness imputed to them however it seems from scripture but the rest of mankind will have a 1,000 years of learning. Then they will not only take in the knowledge but obedience can then be expected. They will be like Adam knowing full well what they are doing, no deception will be responsible if they go against the Creator.

    I don’t have high blood pressure or any of the risk factors for a stroke. It seems to have been a stress-induced situation culminating when I reached my destination. Now I know I will have a heart attack or stroke if I react to stress. Mine was like if you saw your child get hit and killed by a person or car. They only put me on high dose aspirin and statin although my cholesterol is okay.
    I don’t argue or put myself in situations with family or other religious men that are witnesses or Bible Students anymore. I will stay in my home where I have been blessed to have to go to and be gracious and thankful God helped me survive.
    I seem to not know how to say no and turn my phone off. Now I have 2 phones, one with a number only close family knows and no one else. It is a combination of things that were going on at that time. I drove without a layover for 12 hours, normally I stop at relatives along the way. So I just have to conclude, I need to leave emotional situations alone even if it hurts my heart to ignore it. I am so glad they didn’t put me on meds because there are side effects that can be worse than the cure. Plus the “olde grey mare she ain’t what she used to be”, I am in my eighth decade of life. Take Care

  15. travelers says:

    “Then I learned How to Study the Bible and have it make Sense”.

    I understand your desire to just “wing” it Jacqueline. But let’s be fair, “how to study”, “how to make sense”, why would there be a “way” if it really does not matter. Yes we agree the level of closeness you achieve in drawing closer to God seems to not be the thing, i.e. milk, vegetables, meat, but you must learn accurately to “know God”. To learn accurately you Jacqueline have obviously found the “key”: logic used with personal responsibility, mea culpa.

    (Romans 12:1, 2) . . .Consequently I entreat YOU by the compassions of God, brothers, to present YOUR bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with YOUR power of reason. 2 And quit being fashioned after this system of things, but be transformed by making YOUR mind over, that YOU may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

    How many pages in the Bible? 1500 or so… somebody thought you needed information. It’s the fact that you set off on the path, that is the thing. That means you must start the process of making your mind over. The spirit, token of adoption, given when you cross from death to life has a purpose. This part of your inheritance which causes increased mental capacity must be used, that we agree on.

    On a more personal note, did they put you on the blood pressure meds they routinely give? We found that at a time when we were working hardest at getting our minds back on solid ground, the blood pressure meds really got in the way. Fortunately Judy really did not need them. They had put her on them as a matter of routine not thinking about the fact that she did not have a heart problem and that the type of problem she had was one that only 5% of the population has due to an inherited weakness. After we talked to the surgeon and reasoned through it with him he admitted the mistake and took her off the meds. Later we learned the top five of these meds had been contaminated with a highly carcinogenic chemical in the production phase that the FDA had just become aware of. It’s hard enough dealing with the psychological effects of a stroke without learning to deal with a new “high” on top of this. We found that Judy constantly suffered from depression (go figure right) since the blood pressure meds dull the mind and remove the highs and lows we normally experience. Yes, we have the awareness of what is going on in this system and this spares us undo anxiety, but we are human. If like yourself you have an excellent mind, to find it faced with this new dimension can be frustrating. Perhaps if you’ve experienced what we did with the meds the doctor can make adjustments to a med that works better for your mind. Please don’t think we are trying to write off what you have to say using this tactic. We sincerely wish to see you and ourselves recover completely from this stroke event. This is the reason we have shared our personal experience .

  16. jacqueline says:

    Travelers. I used to think we had to be Right in what the Bible said to get everlasting life but so often realized others explanations were valid also.
    Then I learned How to Study the Bible and have it make Sense.
    Put the scripture first in the correct Age or time period.Duribg the Thousand Years we will indeed have accurate complete easy to understand instructions about God’s Divine requirements.
    Scrolls will be opened and knowledge will abound. Then John 17:3 application.
    Right now we See through a Cloudy glass darkly.
    Judgement day for everlasting life is not now, but future.
    So many around the world are looking toward Christ during this holy season, what a Blessing to meet in Spirit and together to Remember Him. Enjoy.

  17. travelers says:

    We will be with you and others in our hearts sister.

    (John 17:1-3) . . .Jesus spoke these things, and, raising his eyes to heaven, he said: “Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, 2 according as you have given him authority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life. 3 This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. . .

  18. jacqueline says:

    Travelers, I have grown and learned that we all have a brain that we are finally exercising. We are thinking. You couldn’t express what you saw as a witness to anyone if it differed from the governing body’s viewpoint. If you did you were marked as an independent thinker. Fear of a fierce fight kept persons from expressing what they saw the scriptures as teaching on the friends of JW site if it disagreed with the writings of Charles Taze Russell’s, Studies in the Scriptures.
    I wanted to get away from that arguing and not respecting my fellow brother cannot see it the way I do and I might not see it their way, but we discussed it. We read the Bible and discussed Christ! We will all probably be shocked to see how close or far off we were. Jehovah and Jesus just probably smile as there is nowhere in the Bible that says knowledge saves us. We are saved by Jesus’ sacrifice and obedience when His kingdom rule explains time, space, eternity and who He and Jehovah really is.
    I appreciate the hard work both of you put in with posting and reasoning with everyone here on scripture. It causes the wheels in the brain to spin. Your comment made me feel good, I was a little depressed yesterday. The doctors says it will happen from time to time until I fully recover. I now know when the headaches start I will feel emotions, so I go out and walk. My boys, one daughter in law and Henry are keeping me afloat plus grandchildren. So thank you. May God bless yall and all of us.
    Will you be wih us on Memorial this year? There will be 7 of us here at my home and then those on the hook up on Free Conference Call. We can show ourselves if we wish, hopefully everybody will allow it that will visit here.

  19. travelers says:

    Wow how wonderful Jacqueline. An impasse is always a possibility when we consider things in common. What a good example you set for us all.

    Sincerely, with love sister, the travelers

  20. jacqueline says:

    Thanks both views are presented and others may have something to say now. Thanks.

  21. travelers says:

    My partner says we need to explain Rom 11:25 a little more so here goes.

    25 For I do not want YOU, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved. T

    Those with dulled sensibilities are the \\\”lost sheep\\\” of Israel, not the nation of Israel. These sheep are being led astray by the Nation of Israel. Not all had dulled sensibilities and those who were awake accepted Jesus, who was also awake, to be their new king. They leave with him to become part of the new nation and its new administration.

    If the ones left with dulled sensibilities were to become aware of what was really going on with the grafting in of the people of the nations to fill the full number of the \\\”sons of Israel\\\”, the persecutions of those people would be much greater than it is.

    Think about it. Jesus came to save the world of mankind not the nation of Israel. Only those of right heart and ear were ever included in that statement. That necessary frame of mind has been followed and documented from Adam all the way down to us. Adam and Eve lost an approved frame of mind and with it their stand with God. Along with their stand they lost immortality.

    Strangely even after the nation of Israel and those with dulled sensibilities persecuted Jesus and his followers, putting Jesus and many others to death, somehow Satan has blinded the minds of the majority of these who claim to follow Jesus. These \\\”Christians\\\” are fully supporting a man made attempt to put this nation of Israel back into control of a piece of the earth they think is promised to them as God\\\’s people. Boy, are both of these parties wrong in a profound way.

    The Romans and the Nation of Israel, the killers of our Lord, coined the term \\\”Christian\\\”, and most adopted it without thinking. Then they topped that off with the \\\”theory of the trinity\\\”. Think, why does God give evidence of his involvement in every other title and name related to his people, but here the Bible says it appears \\\”providential\\\”, meaning suspected of being a god-like act. Do you really want power in your reality, one where God through Jesus reveals truth that will set you free from the world? We admit freely we did not get the full sense of that statement and are struggling to keep \\\”up\\\” with it. The spirit with its gift of increased mental capacity, the Bible says will call to mind things said, and \\\”New Understandings\\\”.

    Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob. 27 And this is the covenant on my part with them, when I take their sins away.” 28 True, with reference to the good news they are enemies for YOUR sakes, but with reference to [God’s] choosing they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers

    The lost sheep are beloved because of the forefathers and so the apostles were sent to save as many as possible. If you are circumcised of \\\”heart and ear\\\” it means you have developed a heart that wants to turn towards the truth and you are listening for the \\\”ring of truth\\\”. In doing this you have the chance to be grafted into the \\\”original root\\\” Jesus as a true Jew one of the \\\”sons of Israel\\\”. Yes when this is all over and completed and Jesus hands his (k)ingdom back to Yahweh to be part of his (K)ingdom, we will all of us be on a one to one with God and these titles will just be part of the history of frame of mind.

  22. travelers says:

    You said
    “Roman 11 shows that they are the root, the tree has grafts into it but not dead to God.
    ,
    God made a promise. Galatians 3:29 shows the early Christians were heirs of a promise to Abraham.”

    I would point out Jesus is the root, we are grafted into. We will as Jews, sons of Israel, offspring of Abraham inherit the earth as a home. We are working on a new post, the relationship of our “tent” to Jesus’ “tent” the temporary body we all inhabit until we make our minds over and it becomes a permanent dwelling, having put on immortality within our relationship with God. We as living stones are then incorporated into the the “house of God”, all of this without ever going to heaven, a hope that is not held out for mankind. But back to the point.

    (Revelation 22:16) . . .“‘I, Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to YOU people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright morning star.. . .

  23. travelers says:

    Hi Jacqueline, you\’ve missed the point that \”Israel\” is completely different from the \”nation\” of Israel, most people do. The \”sons of Israel\” constitute \”Israel\”. The \”sons of Israel\” are the offspring of Abraham. All of these titles are based on frame of mind in connection to God. These true Jews are the only Jews and were the only ones circumcised of heart and ear. They left the nation with Jesus or joined him later. Paul and Jesus brought this out.

    As you said, the promises did belong to these and only these true offspring; you called them Christians. The Promised land will be regained since Abraham and his offspring are to inherit the earth. Jesus as king of the true and only Jews (the remnant of \”Israel\”) left the rejected \”nation of Israel\”, the old provision, the \”old builders\” to set up a new \”Nation\”, the new provision. This was the Good News for the lost sheep, those who had been mislead by the old provision, that there was to be \”New builders\” a \”New Nation\” with a New administration, New Jerusalem. That\’s as simple as it gets.

    Just keep track of \”Israel\” (frame of mind passed from Abraham/faith) as opposed to the \”nation\” of Israel as you read. God did not fail \”Israel\”, the Jews, because by opening the \”way\” to the gentiles he assured that the full number of those on the earth who were circumcised of heart and ear would be saved in the earth. These who are saved constitute the full number of the \”sons of Israel\” and are thus the offspring generated and attributed to Abraham as his offspring. These offspring were originally provided for by the promises that God knew in advance would be from the entire earth, since the full body of the \”nation\” of Israel had no chance of standing as his people under Law. Only those of circumcised heart and ear were ever provided for, and this lovingly was always going to be open to all mankind, not just one nation.

    We know we keep bringing out \”frame\” of mind, but there is no \”way\” of logic that will allow a person to arrive at an accurate understanding of the Bible unless it is realized as the main construct on which all information is given and followed. This includes history, politics, and the ancestry of God, as well as the angels and mankind.

    (Romans 3:27-4:25)

  24. jacqueline says:

    Hi Travelers, I agree that the Nation of Israel is not in Christ now but God is punishing them for such rejection. He will accept his wife back when the fullness of the Gentiles come in. Isaah and the ole Testament assures us of that.
    Room 11:25 blindness of Christ is not permanent.
    Hosea 14:4 Israel will be cured of their unfaithfulness.
    Isaiah chapters 43-55 shows God has not permanently cut the Nation of Israel off.
    The Jews as a race need Jesus just as we do to get saved. Rom10:1-4 they are in ignorance for now, not accepting Christ.
    Roman 11 shows that they are the root, the tree has grafts into it but not dead to God.
    ,
    God made a promise. Galatians 3:29 shows the early Christians were heirs of a promise to Abraham.
    God cannot lie.
    The Nation of Israel has never taken possession of the lands that God told them they would. God can’t lie. If the word went out of his mouth it must come to pass.
    Isaiah 1:18″ Tho your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool.” ( Pure wool is bright white, clean).
    The way I understand scripture on the Jewish nation is they will be almost to destruction when they will call for Christ to help them and acknowledge Christ. Daniel 12 says Michael will stand up for his people and fight for them. I think this is Armageddon as Megiddo identifies the area of tumult, in Israel. They will be surrounded and armies will fall and the birds will eat their flesh.
    We can expect Moses and the ancient father’s to bring all those middle eastern nations together and they will apologize and grab hold of the skirt of their brothers, the Jews.
    But as you and Paul says we, the gentiles, got the opportunity to go to heaven as grafted into the tree.
    It seems the Gentile times are coming to a close because in the last 18 years more Jews have accepted Christ than the last 2000 years.
    On YouTube there is this compelling documentary on Israel in Scripture.
    End of the Gentile Age by Jacob Prasch.
    Now I will read the other points you are making. We discussed some of your points on the Saturday night testimony meeting tonight.
    Take Care both of you, and thank you for your contributions.

  25. travelers says:

    We were wrong.

    Thank you for moving us to reconsider this train of thought.

    We said Paul was most likely wrong or mistaken in calling himself and the others in the nation of Israel Jews. We were thinking they were not circumcised of heart and ear but we missed that they were considered “LOST SHEEP” because the old builders, the “nation” had misled them. Paul was not to judge them. He had a desire to save as many as possible of those related to him in the flesh. Yes, after the fact we are able to see clearly that the “nation of Israel” was rejected permanently and a “new nation” was to be given by Yahweh as a provision to build up the “house of God” using the remnant saved out of the old failed provision.

    The congregation is considered a house or temple built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus as the foundation cornerstone. It is called “God’s building”, and is “a place for God to inhabit by spirit” (1Co 3:9; Eph 2:20-22). Jesus applied the fulfillment of Psalm 118:22 to himself, as being “the stone” that the Jewish religious leaders and their followers, as “builders,” rejected. (Mt 21:42; Lu 20:17; Ac 4:11; 1Pe 2:7) The individual members of the congregation are spoken of as “living stones.” (1Pe 2:5).

    It is interesting that Paul states that because the “Jews” fell short we have the chance to have mercy shown to us because of their disobedience.

    (Romans 11:30) 30 For just as YOU were once disobedient to God but have now been shown mercy because of their disobedience,

    However, the fact is that it was always a foregone conclusion that the Nation of Israel and the Jews given into their care would fall short as a collective group. No man among them was able to adhere to the law. They were told this when they asked for the law in the first place. God’s son was sent to save them, this was always going to be the necessity. It seems Paul struggled with his ingrained pride, always a problem with our brothers who were trained by the Nation of Israel.
    God’s people seemed to have a hard time realizing that they were chosen because they were the weakest people on earth.
    (1 Corinthians 1:26-29) . . .For YOU behold his calling of YOU, brothers, that not many wise in a fleshly way were called, not many powerful, not many of noble birth; 27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put the strong things to shame; 28 and God chose the ignoble things of the world and the things looked down upon, the things that are not, that he might bring to nothing the things that are, 29 in order that no flesh might boast in the sight of God.

    (Romans 2:29) . . .But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God. .

    (Romans 9:23-26) 23 in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, 24 namely, us, whom he called not only from among Jews but also from among nations, [what of it]? 25 It is as he says also in Ho•se′a: “Those not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved ‘beloved’; 26 and in the place where it was said to them, ‘YOU are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”

    Those who were circumcised in heart and ear, Jesus the righteous one, king of the Jews and the remnant of “true” Jews left the “nation” that rejected the Christ. They formed the “remnant” saved and those given to a “new nation”. This group of Jews, with our king Jesus “the original root”, are those we are grafted into.

    Seems simple enough, but faith is built on accurate information. It is not belief based on emotion. We cannot just want what we believe to be so, feeling within us it must be so. Remember that even an insane person can believe he is right, if personal belief is the measure of rightness. You must “know ” the one sent forth, Jesus, and his Father, Yahweh. Without accurate information accompanied with a logical conclusion drawn from it, you cannot “know” someone.

    On the other hand Jesus knew full well that most of those in the nation of Israel were not, in fact, Jews.

    (Revelation 2:8, 9) . . .“And to the angel of the congregation in Smyr′na write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life [again], 9 ‘I know your tribulation and poverty—but you are rich—and the blasphemy by those who say they themselves are Jews, and yet they are not but are a synagogue of Satan. . .

    Part 2: The question of association and the cultivation of relationship.
    .
    (Romans 14:1-4) Welcome the [man] having weaknesses in [his] faith, but not to make decisions on inward questionings. 2 One [man] has faith to eat everything, but the [man] who is weak eats vegetables. 3 Let the one eating not look down on the one not eating, and let the one not eating not judge the one eating, for God has welcomed that one. 4 Who are you to judge the house servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for Jehovah can make him stand.

    (Psalm 49:20) 20 Earthling man, although in honor, who does not understand, Is indeed comparable with the beasts that have been destroyed.

    Milk: Information about God, his son Jesus, and history relating to them and mankind.

    Vegetables: God’s reality and the obligation of relationship it lays on us. God exists. Jesus is his son. Who we are in this relationship.

    Meat: Life and death in the balance.

    We must follow Jesus mentally in the same pursuit of awareness related to his Father that he followed, the “path”, “way” of reason he revealed. This is the path that allowed Jesus and now us to cross from death to life; the path that generates approved frame of mind. It is the making of our minds over using the spirit’s empowerment, increased mental capacity, and the actions generated from that frame of mind necessary to receive the ransom value at the time of our full adoption.

    It has been 2019 years and we are still reading and trying to understand the Bible and the “realities” it presents. The statement made was “It can’t be that complicated.”

    We have been giving much consideration to the scriptures on eating after hearing that statement “it can’t be that complicated.” This statement is true. Milk must be simple for the beginners. Vegetables must also be simple for the person eating them. But meat is where pondering comes in. While the answers gained may seem simple, once “seen” by the mind whose perceptive powers have been trained, the process of discovery and the explanation of the steps of reason followed are not.

    We have gained a great deal of peace so far having covered the distance we have managed to cover in this direction. We see that the love we have for pursuit in a certain manner should not in any way lessen our appreciation and love for our brothers and sisters, no matter what level of connection to God and his Son their pursuit has given them.

    We now propose the following question since it is seems more relevant and obvious to our minds than “It can’t be that complicated”:

    “What is enough information to allow us to cross over from death to life?”

    For example, did you know that Jesus was dead under law because his stand before God came from his adopted father? Under law the head of the house determined the children’s standing with God. Yes, if Jesus had not presented himself to do God’s will when he reached the age of responsibility, he would have died eventually.

    This question of crossing over from death to life and its answer have driven us to post, hoping to help others in achieving that very goal. We see that a position with God can be a good one, even though a weak one. We hope that what we have written will help some to become stronger, thus increasing the chance that “chance and unforeseen circumstance” can be endured. Knowing for example that God can himself be bound by a number of things (God cannot lie) helps us to understand that the suffering we endure and that the misery we see around us is not his fault. Having allowed the question of his sovereignty to be questioned in a reality, even one that leads to the death of the majority of mankind, is now something he cannot stop until its conclusion. Mankind digs up the dead, oil, and with it is able build and power the truck that runs over the child. Did this happen because God needed a little angel? That would be a painful and ridiculous conclusion. No, God could not do anything about mankind’s choice and the death it leads to. The idea that God goes around sparing this one individual and not the one you love, certainly paints a poor and unacceptable picture of God. Yes there were those who were miraculously spared or healed to demonstrate that God can, and will eventually deliver us from the reality in which we suffer. Does God answer prayer in this “time of an unseen God?” Yes, He does. He has sent us the comforter, the “spirit of understanding”.

    Faith must be achieved through accurate understanding and a logical conclusion drawn from that understanding, or you just went home with new information and a good feeling. This “good feeling” will never answer the question, “why did the person in the next bed get cured of cancer and my loved one who pursued a life long relationship with God did not?”

    So when we cross from death to life, we do it within the process of eating: first milk, then vegetables, then meat. Stand erect as soon as you have strength to do so and seek solid food, and with it a solid footing in the truth. Set your paths straight so that you go in the “right” “way” to draw closer to God’s frame of mind, by acquiring Christ’s frame of mind. We all pray that we are not mislead.

    We have been built up by your help. Your help teaches us that consideration and reconsideration is how we teach each other.

    Colossians 3:15-17) . . .Also, let the peace of the Christ control in YOUR hearts, for YOU were, in fact, called to it in one body. And show yourselves thankful. 16 Let the word of the Christ reside in YOU richly in all wisdom. Keep on teaching and admonishing one another

  26. jacqueline says:

    Wow travelers, now the scripture has power and makes sense. Jesus is able to do all of the things we attributed to the Bible. But this is “THE WORD”. Thought provoking, thanks for sharing this with us. (Heb. 4:11-16)

  27. travelers says:

    (Hebrews 4:11-13) 11 Let us therefore do our utmost to enter into that rest, for fear anyone should fall in the same pattern of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart. 13 And there is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting.

    This is an old misconception, that the original “word” relates to the Bible, “word of God”. You will see it is not the “word” as in the word written. It is “word” as in the son of God, lo′gos. This is why he is given the work of Judging.
    The term “word” in the Scriptures most frequently translates the Hebrew and Greek words da•var′ and lo′gos. These words in the majority of cases refer to an entire thought, saying, or statement rather than simply to an individual term or unit of speech. (In Greek a ‘single word’ is expressed by rhe′ma [Mt 27:14], though it, too, can mean a saying or spoken matter.) Any message from the Creator, such as one uttered through a prophet, is “the word of God.” In a few places Lo′gos (meaning “Word”) is a title given to Jesus Christ.

    Another conceptual trail of thought in the scriptures that is interesting to consider is the passage at Hebrews 4:12-16. In this paragraph there is no need to translate, since the understanding is plainly given. The line of thought clearly identifies the qualities and person being talked about, Jesus. Obviously neither Yahweh nor Jesus needs a book or aid to discern the thoughts and intentions of our hearts.

    (Hebrews 4:12-16) . . .For the word [lo′gos] of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart. 13 And there is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting. 14 Seeing, therefore, that we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold onto [our] confessing of [him]. 15 For we have as high priest, not one who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tested in all respects like ourselves, but without sin. 16 Let us, therefore, approach with freeness of speech to the throne of undeserved kindness, that we may obtain mercy and find undeserved kindness for help at the right time.

    While we know that a great deal of power is contained within the Bible, discernment is not one of its abilities.

    (Hebrews 4:11-13) 11 Let us therefore do our utmost to enter into that rest, for fear anyone should fall in the same pattern of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is alive and exerts power and is sharper than any two-edged sword and pierces even to the dividing of soul and spirit, and of joints and [their] marrow, and [is] able to discern thoughts and intentions of [the] heart. 13 And there is not a creation that is not manifest to his sight, but all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting.
    Just a closing thought, After God created his son he rested because all the work for the purpose of making was done in the completed Son. This is why we can enter into God’s rest. We put on the Christ much like we put on immortality in relation to Yahweh, by being one in frame of mind.

  28. travelers says:

    As usual you put it in a nut shell, Jacqueline. That’s the point, we do not consider ourselves teachers nor do we wish to be. There is only one Great teacher and we’re busy trying to keep “up”. But it certainly seemed we were being weighed as such, teachers, otherwise our posts would be just the way we see it, put in our personal style. It should not have seemed necessary to critique the post’s format (KISS). We agree that the information does not need to be re-formatted by someone else to be what we wish to say.
    On the other hand, we are not just looking for a site to post on, but the fellowship of common pursuit. We thank you for your assistance Jacqueline, and see clearly your stance. We have never run a site so we don’t know what burden it brings with it. Thanks for your patience.

    As for the viewers from the sidelines, step “UP”. Being temporary residents in this system, there is nothing to be lost that God will not replace with ideas that allow us to draw closer to him, if we travel together. We promise to consider what you too have to say in that effort. We thank you in advance for the fellowship in future pursuit, accepted as an expression of love, within our common effort to set our paths straight. If there are those who want to email us directly here is our address, traveler144000@gmail.com

    Sincerely, your bother and sister, the travelers

  29. jacqueline says:

    Traveler thanks for commenting. I don’t change or rearrange the things written on this site. Everyone is expressing what they are seeing and sharing.
    Noone on here is teaching the other, everyone is sharing. Which in a broader sense means we are all learning from each other.
    Each person is at his level. This site really has no agenda and some have found that bothersome.

    JWfacts.com is just that and is very useful. We put thoughts out there from many minds. There is no censor or taking down your comments if they don’t agree with Studies in the Scriptures or what the JW organization teaches.
    Generally, no one on here has hangups about the Trinity and hellfire, we all know how those doctrines came about and your proof explanation of the Trinity is there.
    I personally am not looking to be taught but hear what others are saying to add to my personal studies. I agree we stand on the shoulders of many great writers, learners etc.

    This is a site for help, closure, and comfort for exiting persons from the religions based on the writings of Charles Taze Russell and the different organizations that have sprung up and further enslaved them by birth or by being sucked into these organizations by selling paradise to people at the door who are vulnerable.
    If some choose to stay with these systems it is okay but at least they can express themselves here without fear of reprisal.
    Even your approach is acceptable as you envision your contribution as a teacher. That’s okay, we can read what is written and everybody here is intelligent and can filter out what they need or don’t need, what they want to file away or use; see the mission statement on “Who are We” in the black section.
    Most informational sites or comfort sites don’t include a space to blog, we do.
    One thing I didn’t want was an aggressive attack every time a person disagreed with Russell. For comments to be disapproved before people brought out some flaws in his writings. Russell published some great points, even a broken clock is right twice a day but you wouldn’t set your alarm with it and rely on it.
    You asked if I have a religion. No, I am simply a Christian, I can talk, listen and learn from many other lovers of Christ from ministers, Bible houses, and good old little brothers and sisters in small groups or one or two coming up with understanding with the help of the Spirit.
    I think I must project that I am looking for help because you are not the only one that is offering to help me. I am being bombarded with Bible Students getting in touch with me to do whatever they have in their mind. I really am not in any pain and didn’t even leave the witnesses because of any pain. I have never had witnesses or elders come after me like the Bible Student brothers. They respected my right to walk away. My family was another issue but even they have gotten over themselves and worry only about their relationship with God. I am good.
    I moderate this site, it isn’t up because I am so hurt over anything. I have more than one site and have had “ask Jacqueline” long before I knew there were Bible Students. I enjoy the freedom of association and having an outlet to hear others thoughts. This is what I do.

    I wish more Bible Students would come directly on this site to refute rather than bombard me with wanting to see them one at a time on a private personal level. They are welcome.

  30. travelers says:

    The donkey saw, understood not to proceed and spoke.

    So well put, Jacqueline, time and unforeseen circumstances. The majority of the world has been blinded, along with the rider. Like the “milk” that starts the process of making your mind over, your food must actually be at the very least, next, really “vegetables”. Conclusions based on accurate awareness must be drawn by beginner and the mature alike. If what you are eating never makes you stronger, at whatever level you are, you will not have the strength to stand erect.

    “We have given you one post, an historic fact, that should be able to free your minds from almost every religious division, the history of the trinity. The witnesses you have already seen through.”

    So, well put donkey, “don’t go that, way”. Don’t worry we get it. Unfortunately the donkey has to hope the rider is willing to use “RJAL” to reach a conclusion.

    As the person we see you wish to be, in putting up this site, we hope that finally ones with depth might help those who want “milk”, while also helping those who would like to move on up the path to take in “vegetables”, and in the process make way for those who have the strongest desire to draw closer to God, sharing a meal of “meat” with them.

    In our experience, the difference between those who make progress and those who don’t isn’t their circumstance, but the strength of their desire to know God and their desire to save those around them. We already pointed to the fact that the largest part of the work of saving lives is done by women, which as you know is stated in the Bible. Surely you are not suggesting, as Paul did when he gave his “opinion”, that they must be single to do this; you referenced the restriction of families. This site is based on dialog which by definition can’t be carried on with one liners.

    For those who find what we are saying to be complicated, we suggest that it would serve all here if they just shared in what they can of the meal in front of them, and realize that perhaps it is only complicated viewed from where they are.
    Jacqueline, you mentioned that God does not need graphs for us to understand the Bible. This is true, for some. We have a collection of writings that have been painstakingly compiled. Those in charge of this process realized the “depth” of the writings to such an extent that they numbered each letter and space within the writings so no piece would be lost. These were then translated into your tongue so that we can more easily get a grasp of the reality we are in. It usually has an “index” and has been divided into “books” we have come to know the names of. It has further been divided into “verses” that are numbered by book for quick reference. Possibly the Bible you use has foot notes. These are all tools to aid us. We would go on but the fact is that after several thousand years mankind still has not reached the full depth of understanding in “The Bible”. Probably everything you think you know and those things you do know are because someone before you exerted their “power of reason” beyond what is normal, using the spirit to advance from milk, to vegetables, to then chewing on the “meat”, in order to digest with a mature system of understanding and then to pass this information along. How would you understand if you were not first orally taught. This statement in the Bible shows it is not so uncomplicated that just anyone can pick up the “Bible” and just “wing it”, hoping the force is with them.

    Please don’t think we are offended. Scholars write within each generation, most of us probably don’t read these writings. Your denomination, if you still have one, most likely trains persons in these scholarly writings so as to be better qualified to help you and I to understand the complex depths of the Bible. Even the JW’s have Bethel. Are these experts necessary, well yes to some degree. I love Paul’s writings, he writes the way I think. I love peering into his mind, concept by concept. We’ve enjoyed insights from Franz. We’ve certainly enjoyed the efforts of the scholars who presented us with the Bible. The problem with all of those who orally teach is that they can take you only as far as they have or have not gone. Then you must stand erect on your own.

    Complicated! We know that these objections are honestly meant, just misguided in our opinion. We know from long experience that these objections are always going to be the result of posts or comments on our part, but we also know that the information taken, one step of logic at a time, will lead to the conclusions we are suggesting. Are we the best persons to teach the basics, probably not. That’s why we try to post under such headings as “What says the Bible: on Difficult Subjects?”

    An example of our attempt at teaching basics is the statement on the “theory of the trinity”, you should take this step of logic as a stand, then move on to the next. Sounds fairly simple on the surface doesn’t it. You think, ok lets move on, but as you’ve “seen” it is not.

    Most here, at least that post, are not supposed to be beginners still on milk, at least looking at the posted subjects. While we do have sympathy for the person who wants to believe everybody makes it and is saved to the new system, the simple fact is that billions will die. Yes, not something we want to point out right away to beginners. The Bible states clearly that the blind who are lead by the blind will lose their “way” and have no hope of making it into the new system, even if in the regular world they seem like ok people. We know of no argument against this statement by any religious direction.

    So how important is it that at least you have a firm foundation, given that the Bible is full of life and death consequences?

    That you know who Jesus is?

    That you understand who his Father is?

    Remember those adhering to the “theory of the trinity” do not know who Jesus really is. Please stop and “ponder” for a moment, do you get the scope of that statement, “they do not know who Jesus really is”? These two statements embrace almost every “Christian” religion. The understanding of the “truth” of these two statements should set you free, from the entire world of organizations.

    We hope that the simple steps we have put forward, such as showing the history of the trinity which is a simple step of logic, an historic fact, given along with an explanation that “Jehovah” is the representation of a mistake in pronunciation of Latin, also an historic fact, would result in at least some here taking a stand.

    You have to start some place.

    Take a stand on a conclusion reached through logic.

    Present yourselves with your “power of reason” if you wish to offer “sacred service” to God.

    These two facts, the theory of the trinity and Jehovah as a mistake, are not even up to the “milk” in the Bible, they are just fact.

    We suggest you knew who we are when you put forward the invite to this site Jacqueline. We know you must be getting some of this. Explain it better if you can to those who don’t get it, please.

    We would at least suggest maybe the title “What says the Bible: on Difficult Subjects?” Should be adjusted, if that is not really what you want discussed there.

    We know that there are issues of ego going on here, there always are in these situations. But we would like to relieve you of concern on our behalf, we have none, at least that we see a point in. We want to live. We want to help others to live. We want to find the error in our reason so we can remove it, and draw closer to God. The best way to do this in our opinion is to allow any who can to “simply” explain the truth to us more clearly. This means we must first explain where we have gone on any given subject to give you a sense of what we have used to draw the conclusions we stand with. If it sounds as if we’re trying to speak with authority, we hope you realize it’s just that we have put a lot of thought into the considerations. This seems to be the exception rather than the rule in the “real” world, so our explanations may seem a “little” longer than most.

    We sincerely ask for your help. You can be sure that if what you are saying goes anywhere we are following . But also please be assured that we are teaching at the level we are at only because we see no other way to approach getting the point across. We may not be professors in your estimation, but it would be a rare thing to find one who could move up or down the teaching scale, and still be able to teach effectively. The same thing would certainly be the case with a kindergarten teacher. So you see our problem clearly, please feel free to rephrase, or rearrange the truth you do see in our statement so those either up or down the scale you use will be able to appreciate that we are also their brother and sister within the love of Jesus.

  31. Christopher Johns says:

    Jacqueline,
    Can’t wait to hear from you when you call. But yes the whole “preach by example” is not what I see. I think after he was raised he went into the Prison and preached to them. I’ve even gone as far as to ask “If Jesus had to become a MAN to redeem men then how does a spirit being get redemption of he can’t die as a spirit for them? Jesus had to come and die as a man in order to redeem men (and women) but how does a man redeem spirits.” But it does say he preached them to them so I see your view as well.”

  32. jacqueline says:

    Christopher, every time the Bible says something direct I found the Bible students have another EXPLANATION. Everything in the Bible is subject to their special knowledge, which on the surface seems they are brilliant. My defining moment came when a well respected elder and one of the sisters in your class said that Jesus did not literally after he was resurrected as a Spirit do what 1Peter 3: 19- 20 said. How can you twist that he couldn’t go into the Spirit realm and actually preach to the spirits in prison or tartaroo. They believe it was by his conduct while in the flesh he preached to them by example. Like you say I am going to go eat. You don’t go anywhere really that is the example the prominent elder and your sister used even looking at me as if how could you believe he went to them? Your sister even said her Baptist minister knew that.
    I can go on and on on how if the Bible says this they have a twist on clearly stated things. You couldn’t express a different idea on Wednesday night study than the Volumes or be said to be maybe subject to second death.
    Also we wanted to not skip volume four but the conductor said no! I took it up with Peter and he said he wouldn’t have studied that volume with us either. But said he believed every word Russell wrote but treated us like children and decided what we could or could not discuss. Now you see why I cut myself off from anyone who wanted to be a Bible student? Because I knew I couldn’t keep quiet. I also need to tell you something in private that affected only you and I at one convention where we were together. I will call you tomorrow after you get off work. It only affects you and I. I think you need to be told. Thoughts please on 1Peter 3: 19-20.

  33. Ted R. says:

    Hi Brother Chris
    Nice to hear from you. I look forward to hearing from you on the site. Lord bless you.

  34. Christopher Johns says:

    Good morning Jacqueline,
    I 100% get whats you’re saying. Remember the ecclesia that told a sister that if she didn’t get baptized then she would have her crown taken and given to another person? I’m sorry they acted like that toward you. There are many Russelites within the group. We had a discourse by brother Mora entitled “Why do the Brethren Disagree?” And he went into why we can and should have different points of view. He also said in the 70’s that there were groups of us that say that we shouldn’t study the Bible but only the volumes and reprints because they contain the Harvest Message. That’s not right but no different than the JWs. That’s why I love my class. We don’t all believe the same things but we don’t argue about it. We don’t have an elder and just sit and discuss things. One class keeps trying to make David or me an elder and said we don’t have an official class because we’re not set up like the 6th Volume says. If we have different views Clanky will say “well that’s what you believe and this is what I believe.” And we don’t argue. I study everything including our stuff. I went to another church down the street that teaches types and anti-types and they make sense. They believe they are running for the bride but they aren’t Bible Students in the Russell sense. Nothing wrong with that. But many brothers and sister don’t consider them because they aren’t “in the truth.”
    But you are right. I see that many Bible Students are the same as JW they just follow a man who passed on. Same with the Laymens. I had one tell me that “Russell sits at the right hand of Christ.” Um no. I went to my first general where I met you. 🙂 And there was a discourse where we were told that the passage in Revelation was Russell and they put the screen up and put the passage from Revelation and everywhere they had the word “Angel” they substituted the word “Russell”. That didn’t set right with me.
    I 100% get where you’re coming from. I love listening to Bob Carnegie and he showed in the book of Hebrews how Tabernacle Shadows is wrong. He showed how the Bullock and Scapegoat and Lord’s Goat all are three aspects of the same sacrifice of Christ and how the church is not part of the Sin Offering. They brothers and sisters did not like that. They called him a traitor even though he showed it from the Book of Hebrews.

    This exact reason you chose not to go anymore is why the Free Bible Student’s broke off. They saw too much creature worship. I thought it was false in the JW history book that Bible Students were guilty of creature worship. I thought it was propaganda from the JWs. Now I see that it’s true in many respects.
    I will definitely be calling and texting. If you haven’t changed your number then i will do so.

    As for the invisible return. Bob Carnegie did have a discourse about that. He said that
    the Second Adventists expected that 1874 was to be the fleshly return of Christ and since it didn’t happen they made it “invisible” and Russell accepted it. I can see that. I don’t do dates anymore. Many ExJws that are becoming Bible Students that are identifying more with the less-Russell version of the free Bible Students. Carnegie even did a discourse called “Are We wise or foolish virgins” in which he showed that Jesus said no one know the day or the hour and then gave the parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins. He says that if the parable was given to show that no one knows the day nor the hour then why are we now putting dates on there with the Miller Movement. Believe it or not there are many Bible students that feel like you do.
    But yes I see where you’re coming from and will def come back to this site. Thank you.

    Chris J

  35. jacqueline says:

    My goodness! Christopher, how are you? I am following your conversation on fojw with Gaza.
    I got this point from you and have repeated it twice already today. Never thought about it.
    “There are no scriptures saying how to perform the Memorial with non-partakers” thanks.
    I had one Thursday ” There are no scriptures saying “Jesus will return invisibly”, but lots saying every eye will see him and that he will return as they saw him visibly going up and leaving on the clouds and that every knee would bend before him, etc.
    Now for your other point on my coming to a convention of the Bible Students again,
    I can’t, I would get disgusted at the kingdom hall as the brothers glorified the governing body!
    But Christopher, the Bible students are far worse! They do every homage to Russell except get on their knees and worship him, plus he is a dead man. At least the witnesses are talking about live people. I know you saw the watchtower quotes on here where the attitude of Russell was horrible toward the black race, yet an elder whose name I won’t mention said he believes everything that Russell wrote, even when I told him about the statements.
    He referred to me as Onesimus when I left the site. Henry read him his rights but he still tried to call me and use the analogy again and I read him the drill!
    The Bible students are in some ways worse than the witnesses in an insistence on studying the Studies in the Scriptures over and over again like drones. The pyramid doctrine takes me to another space and time, I can’t describe it. (I know this is your baby, LOL).
    The total lack of unity of any kind and constant arguing over what Russell said then changed, charts and each speaker trying to outdo the others, NO, I am done. I threw away all of their material and realized God showed me it is Russell”s teachings that both the witnesses and the Bible Students follow that are in error. He let me go from the frying pan into the pot!
    Now I have bowed before him and asked for the Holy Spirit to help me understand. He answers. Our little group, study discussions stunned us at first when we saw the scriptures clearly when we used only the Bible as the guide. Now we accept that it is the Helper, the Spirit and we are doing okay.
    Right now we are considering every doctrine taught us by Russell, Rutherford and the Governing body of Jehovah Witnesses.
    We don’t try to line it up with what they teach or taught, we go straight on what the Bible actually says with their filters and find that they make up a lot of stuff. The Bible students make up a little bit more however with their type, antitypes, and charts.
    I am done with Russell and his in your face elders. I am happy now without having to stick with what Russell said on the fojw site. I never sent you the emails with the guidelines, from the administrators of that site on what you could or could not teach or agree with. If I had you would not appreciate it.
    Also, I saw some demeaning of women there and I think my voice was too big and my light too bright for the conservative Russellite branch of the Bible Students. I refuse however to tone it down to accommodate the submissiveness to old doctrine and ideas before women could vote or go to college.
    But it is their religion and as I was told their website and it will endorse the teachings of only Charles Taze Russell.
    So I say good-bye to yet another cult follower of a man, both the witnesses and the Bible Students originate from Russell. Their new history on Witnesses being from Rutherford and not Russell is a fabrication. The witness organization more closely follow Russell. He would never have such confusion as I witnessed as an observer passing through.
    We all are trying, however, Witnesses, Bible Students, Baptist, Methodist etc and in heaven all will have to tiptoe past the Bible Students groups (Christadelphians etc)and Jehovah Witnesses room because they think they are the only ones there. (:)
    PS: I am not a Bible Student. I never formally joined any particular class anyway.
    Also, pop in anytime to add to the discussion on Thursday or come on Saturday and tell us about your journey, it is not controlled on Saturday at all just Christians talking to encourage each other. Or just listen or say hello. You are special to me. Love you, we struggled together at one convention. I can change your name also if you want me too. Just text me!
    https://askjacqueline.life/freeconferencecall/ Download the app for a seamless entrance.

  36. Christopher Johns says:

    Hey Sister Jackie,
    It’s Chris. I totally get what you’re saying. So many brethren won’t accept anything in contradiction to Russell then out of the other side of their say that JWs won’t listen to anything other than what the WT says. For example I don’t think that the scapegoat and Lord’s goat represent the church but are aspects of the same sacrifice of Jesus. I don’t believe in Second death in this age either. I’ve read some of other teachings by Rutherford and I agree with some. Like he spent pages showing how the church is under the new covenant. Whether I have a good point or not they don’t like that it’s not what Russell taught. I’m not a Russelite. I saw sister Marvey at the convention this past weekend and asked about you. Had a great time. Please come down for the one in October.

  37. traveler says:

    Are You Going to Heaven?

    We’ve been reading the comments, and it occurred to us that the contributors need to have the realization that there is no provision in the promises and covenants that allows for the resurrection of anyone to heaven. Look carefully. Jesus received an out-resurrection to the earth through the promises made to Abraham, and then he ascended to heaven by invitation. At Armageddon those in the memorial tombs are to receive an out-resurrection to earth and they, along with the living, are changed. Christ descends from Heaven and those who hear his upward call meet him in the “air”. Remember Satan is the “god of the air” now, but Jesus will be the god of the new order. The upward call is often confused with the heavenly call from Yahweh. The call from Yahweh that all must hear to draw closer to him by making their minds “up”. Remember, kingdom means range of influence and those under the influence of God are his “kingdom” on earth, those of Mankind who are in the process of returning to the original order where Yahweh is over all as King. These are still drawing closer to God even during the thousand years. Thus the statement, “let your kingdom come” is a matter of Yahweh’s will being fully understood and exercised on Earth, as it is in Heaven. This return is achieved only if, as we pray, God will let his holy spirit of understanding be poured out; “let” us come. You may have noticed that the “new Jerusalem”, Jesus along with the 144000, is arriving at earth as Jesus descends and the 144000 rise to meet him in the air, it’s not leaving. With this concept in mind, it should be fairly easy to work out who those of the upward call are: those of the sons of Israel to share rule of the earth with Jesus. You have only the twelve tribes during the thousand years on Earth, minus 144,000.This makes the great crowd simple enough to get a handle on. It also might be good to keep in mind that “few” find the path, so the “Great” crowd is a small remnant of mankind who are “Great” in that they alone have survived the grave, and the great tribulation. The fact that no man can number them is similar to man also not knowing the day or the hour.

    Look also at the fact that Jesus as the first born of God was given a two part inheritance which was foreshadowed in the law, kingship over heaven and earth. Jesus shared his inheritance by sharing a one-part rule with his brothers , rule over the earth for 144000 of them. Your citizenship is seated in the heaven because it is assured by Jesus who now has kingship over the living and the dead and rules heaven. He will soon rule earth where you will be a citizen of his new rule. Remember as you study that you’ll find no provision for mankind to leave the home God gave them, earth. Abraham and his off-spring, Jesus being one of them, were to inherit the earth.

    Satan and his followers were cast out of heaven. The great question of God’s sovereignty has not yet been finished on earth. Much as so many people expect that it’s a given that the “theory of the trinity” is in the Bible, many also expect that a resurrection to heaven is also. Jesus and his apostles did not believe in a resurrection to heaven. This is a historical fact that most Bible scholars will attest to.

  38. traveler says:

    Are you going to Heaven?

  39. traveler says:

    holy spirit

    THE LAST GIFT
    SPIRIT OF UNDERSTANDING, THE HELPER

    The importance of this last gift, referred to as the “helper”, the “comforter”, the “spirit of truth”, or the “spirit of understanding”, cannot be overstated, in our age, our day, or as it is also called, “The Time of the End”. The holy spirit as a general force does many things, depending upon Yahweh’s purpose. In this case it was to serve as the vehicle of enlightenment for humanity, to enable the sons of Israel to fulfill their task of finding, following, and representing the Faithful Slave, Jesus.

    The holy spirit given in token, “the spirit of adoption” gives increased mental capacity allowing you to find, remember and put in order the information God and Jesus need you to have to accomplish God’s will. This capacity allows you to cover distance “up” the “path”, to reason in the right “way”, to cross from death to life as an adopted son of God. In certain cases such as Jesus and his apostles, spirit was given them to perform powerful works to show that they were, in fact, the true Jews and the present provision from God. They were able to pass on a measure of this spirit for the same purpose to others who then used these works to establish the same identity as the provision of God to the congregation as well as to the masses. With the passing of Jesus, his apostles and those they empowered, there have been no recorded cases of others being given this special gift to perform powerful works that could be seen or proven. Paul gave a glimpse of what was coming.

    (1 Corinthians 13:8) 8 Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. . .

    Those that existed during the time that Jesus revealed himself were privileged to suffer with him. They were no doubt comforted by seeing and experiencing these events and powerful works. But these works were done and recorded for mankind’s sake as a whole. Of course it helped to draw attention to Jesus and the true Jews, but the point was to show mankind that they needed to make their minds over, make their minds “up”. Mankind needed to return to reason, the “way” of reason that Jesus was revealing to them. Jesus knew that he was going to die and that those God had given these special gifts to would also die. Jesus knew that he had not shared all the insight that he wanted to, or that would need to be understood later. This is why he reassured mankind that he would request that another sort of comforter/helper was sent. This one would establish through the things he had said and through the new understanding what the things he revealed would lead to, that God was the only hope. This new spirit would be one that would allow mankind to make their minds over. It would allow them to look into the deep things of God, the things only they would be able to “see” with the mind’s eye through their transforming awareness given within the increased mental capacity they now enjoyed. Makes me recall the line from the movie “Avatar” ” I see you”, or in other words I see who you are inside, I see into you. That’s why Jesus said, “they will not see me but you will”. The scripture Matthew 24:22 shows us the nature of the experience during the time of the end where mankind will be close to no longer being able to find God. The result would be that no flesh could be saved. This would be a time of an unseen God, or god if you like. They are not able to “see” Jesus or God.

    (Matthew 24:22) . . .In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short. .

    It is interesting looking at the fact that this “last gift” will remain forever and that it gives us a rather fitting relationship with our brothers the angels. They have been ministering to us, now we can express love for them by using this special gift.

    (1 Peter 1:10-12) . . .Concerning this very salvation a diligent inquiry and a careful search were made by the prophets who prophesied about the undeserved kindness meant for YOU. 11 They kept on investigating what particular season or what sort of [season] the spirit in them was indicating concerning Christ when it was bearing witness beforehand about the sufferings for Christ and about the glories to follow these. 12 It was revealed to them that, not to themselves, but to YOU, they were ministering the things that have now been announced to YOU through those who have declared the good news to YOU with holy spirit sent forth from heaven ( gifts of powerful works and now with the gift of understanding). Into these very things angels are desiring to peer.

    Let us use this gift together to peer into the deep things of God.

    (1 Corinthians 2:10-16) 10For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God

    Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary defines comforter: n. 1a cap: HOLY SPIRIT.

    (1 Corinthians 13:8) 8 Love never fails. But whether there are [gifts of] prophesying, they will be done away with; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will be done away with. . .

    (John 14:15-21) 15 “If YOU love me, YOU will observe my commandments; 16 and I will request the Father and he will give YOU another helper to be with YOU forever, 17 the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. YOU know it, because it remains with YOU and is in YOU. 18 I shall not leave YOU bereaved. I am coming to YOU. 19 A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but YOU will behold me, because I live and YOU will live. 20 In that day YOU will know that I am in union with my Father and YOU are in union with me and I am in union with YOU. 21 He that has my commandments and observes them, that one is he who loves me. In turn he that loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will plainly show myself to him.”

    (John 15:26, 27) . . .When the helper arrives that I will send YOU from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which proceeds from the Father, that one will bear witness about me; 27 and YOU, in turn, are to bear witness, because YOU have been with me from when I began.

    (John 14:15-21) 15 “If YOU love me, YOU will observe my commandments; 16 and I will request the Father and he will give YOU another helper to be with YOU forever, 17 the spirit of the truth, which the world cannot receive, because it neither beholds it nor knows it. YOU know it, because it remains with YOU and is in YOU. 18 I shall not leave YOU bereaved [referring to the coming spirit, or comforter]. I am coming to YOU. 19 A little longer and the world will behold me no more, but YOU will behold me, because I live and YOU will live. 20 In that day YOU will know that I am in union with my Father and YOU are in union with me and I am in union with YOU. 21 He that has my commandments and observes them, that one is he who loves me. In turn he that loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and will plainly show myself to him.”

    John 14:15-21 shows some clues as to the nature of continued existence for the ones having the helper that remains forever, and also shows how they will be able to “see” Christ’s return when others will not.

    (John 14:25-27) 25 “While remaining with YOU I have spoken these things to YOU. 26 But the helper, the holy spirit, which the Father will send in my name, That one will teach YOU all things and bring back to YOUR minds all the things I told YOU 2. . .

    (John 15:26) . . .When the helper arrives that I will send YOU from the Father, the spirit of the truth, which proceeds from the Father, that one will bear witness about me;

    (John 16:7) . . .Nevertheless, I am telling YOU the truth, It is for YOUR benefit I am going away. For if I do not go away, the helper will by no means come to YOU; but if I do go my way, I will send him to YOU. .

    (John 16:13-16) 13 However, when that one arrives, the spirit of the truth, he will guide YOU into all the truth, for he will not speak of his own impulse, but what things he hears he will speak, and he will declare to YOU the things coming. 14 That one will glorify me, because he will receive from what is mine and will declare it to YOU. 15 All the things that the Father has are mine. That is why I said he receives from what is mine and declares [it] to YOU. 16 In a little while YOU will behold me no longer, and, again, in a little while YOU will see me.”

    As you read, we hope you’ve read the section on the “Theory of the Trinity” under the heading “Thoughts from the Travelers” on this site where it explains why the holy spirit was personified with “He” rather than using “it” as we would in our tongue. In short there just was no word for “it” in the original tongues.

    (2 Corinthians 1:3-7) . . .Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those in any sort of tribulation through the comfort with which we ourselves are being comforted by God. 5 For just as the sufferings for the Christ abound in us, so the comfort we get also abounds through the Christ. 6 Now whether we are in tribulation, it is for YOUR comfort and salvation; or whether we are being comforted, it is for YOUR comfort that operates to make YOU endure the same sufferings that we also suffer. 7 And so our hope for YOU is unwavering, knowing as we do that, just as YOU are sharers of the sufferings, in the same way YOU will also share the comfort.

    (1 Corinthians 2:10-16) 10For it is to us God has revealed them through his spirit, for the spirit searches into all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the things of a man accept the spirit of man that is in him? So, too, no one has come to know the things of God, except the spirit of God. 12 Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is from God, that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by [the] spirit, as we combine spiritual [matters] with spiritual [words]. 14 But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know [them], because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines indeed all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Yahweh, that he may instruct him?”

    But we do have the mind of Christ guiding us back to be one with the mind of Yahweh.

    As a further note on the phenomenon of the later understandings to arrive at the conclusion of the system of things, or the understandings to come through use of the “spirit of understanding”, we might refer to Paul’s writings at 1 Corinthians 7:25-35.

    (1 Corinthians 7:25-35) . . .Now concerning virgins I have no command from the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who had mercy shown him by the Lord to be faithful. 26 Therefore I think this to be well in view of the necessity here with us, that it is well for a man to continue as he is.

    Mankind has long held on to this passage even though Paul clearly says that it is not inspired. We suppose this is because of man’s realization that he did not have a complete understanding, so he decided that he had better hang on to everything written (somewhat like the Catholics and the13 extra books), even though you would think that the statement coming from Yahweh himself, “It is not good for the man to continue by himself”, would have set this straight long ago. It might be noted that while Paul was toting the benefits of singleness, he himself was only remaining single while seeking the relationship of marriage with Christ. We know that we have a tendency to think of marriage mainly in the light of our inability as a whole to control our sexual tendencies. However, the relationship has little to do with that except for imperfect mankind. It is also good to remember that Jesus himself, outside of all the speculation about offspring and possible marriage while on earth, was himself already promised to a marriage arrangement. It would appear that contrary to Paul’s opinion, Jesus and Yahweh saw no problem in causing one to divert attention from one’s task or health of mind, by entering into the condition and relationship of marriage.

    (Genesis 2:18) 18 And Yahweh God went on to say: “It is not good for the man to continue by himself. I am going to make a helper for him, as a complement of him.. . .

    We offer one more proof, or at least it seems to us proof, that builds our faith, the assured expectation of things hoped for.

    (Hebrews 11:1) . . .Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld. . .

    Again and again we run into the realization of where the original meaning of words/phrases we now use with lost comprehension came from, within the conceptual images contained in the Bible. For example, “understand”. Think about it, God’s “ways” are higher than ours and we must pursue that which he also pursues, truth. God said, “all my “ways” lead to life”. Satan, his followers, Adam and Eve all chose to test this, so we now find ourselves living during the answering of this question of God’s sovereignty . This means we must choose a side, or to under-stand one side or the other, the stands for and against already having been taken by God and Satan. In truth, given our use of it today, if you truly understand you could only accomplish this through God’s insights.

    We know it is not proof positive for those who still have questions. Think also about phrases and statements such as “light hearted”, my burden is light, make your mind “up”. We believe you’ll have to admit that it lends a fair bit of pleasure to your search for the truth when you start to watch for these. Words are just windows behind which we view conceptual images (language). Remember it is the “language” of the Bible that is inspired not the words. That is why we’re told not to argue about words. We’ll let you look that one “up”, during your “upward calling”.

    We hope that by the end of these considerations we will all gather where the eagles are, those who have used these same wings of the spirit to lift them “up”; flying on the wings of inspiration.

  40. jacqueline says:

    Tell her not your fault, my program edits everybody’s articles for spelling. I told you because everything would disappear for a period. Didn’t want you searching for it.
    You saved me effort as Friend in Christ, had asked about the trinity and you include that. Hmmm.
    I got the go ahead to return home end of March. I don’t want to return with below zero temps because still healing from the pneumonia.
    So thanks to God and Jesus, a Stroke 1/9 and 10 and pneumonia 2/6, didn’t take me out.
    It was reflective and all my family except one brother got in touch or flew in. It brought us together. ❤
    Hope you and fellow wife traveler are okay. Tale Care and again welcome.

  41. traveler says:

    Thanks for the editing and the space. I sent without permission from editor traveler and she is giving me a hard time. I guess I need much forgiveness and yes I type a lot faster than I spell so that’s one of the many reasons I have a partner. Thank God

  42. jacqueline says:

    Traveler welcome. Notice you have your own page in the black section. When you want to add to it, click on it and post your additions as a comment. We have found people get up in the morning and will read a new comment but won’t look for a new post. So now you see where you post for your thoughts.
    Now I will go and clean up the spellings in your introduction about yourself, so if you see it gone for a minute, that is me cleaning up everything with (Grammarly, the editor). Again thanks

    It is also strange that I received a call from an xJw that is evaluating everything she has been taught and she asked about the Trinity. You provided the answer. Holy Spirit for sure.

  43. Traveler says:

    KINGDOM

    Kingdom is best defined in a general way by the description, range of influence. The main point of this section is that the “Israel of God” or those circumcised of heart and ear, willing to act on right influence, God’s, were always the only offspring of Abraham, and were always the ones who inherited the promises made to Abraham. In other words, those of circumcised heart and ear were the only ones among the “nation” of Israel that were God’s people . This very small percentage of the population were the ones who eventually came to be called “Jews”. It’s a simple mistake to use the name Jew to apply to all the physically related offspring of Abraham, or people of the “nation” of Israel, rather than to recognize the “true” offspring, the true Jew, the only sons of Israel, those called the house of God. The provision for the building “Up” of this house of God, the ones righteous by faith based on an accurate knowledge and response, was the organization, described as the state/nation of Israel, and the provisions of priests, Pharisees and Sadducees. This organization, along with the rest of the elements related to the running of the state, is described in the Bible as the “old builders”. It was supposed to serve the purpose of building this house of God “up” although it eventually failed and was permanently rejected by God.

    Because of an inaccurate understanding, the persons that the world described as Jews were at that time a mix of the physical descendants of Israel and the spiritual descendants of Abraham. Since the only ones truly under the influence of Yahweh were a small part of the population, these spiritual descendants, were also the only ones described by “kingdom”, or the “Kingdom among you” that Jesus made reference to.

    (Matthew 21:43) . . .The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits.

    (Colossians 1:13-14) 13 He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins.

    This statement at Colossians 1:13-14 describes the fact that the kingdom of the earth, present as the “sons of Israel”, was made part of the influence of the Christ or kingdom of the Son of God, now their king.

    (Acts 13:32-33) 32 “And so we are declaring to YOU THE GOOD NEWS about the promise made to the forefathers, 33 that God has entirely fulfilled it to us their children in that he resurrected Jesus;. . .

    (Ephesians 1:1) To the Ephesians 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through God’s will, to the holy ones who are [in Eph′e•sus] and faithful ones in union with Christ Jesus: 2 May YOU have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and [the] Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ, 4 just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. 5 For he foreordained us to the adoption through Jesus Christ as sons to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 in praise of his glorious undeserved kindness which he kindly conferred upon us by means of [his] loved one. 7 By means of him we have the release by ransom through the blood of that one, yes, the forgiveness of [our] trespasses, according to the riches of his undeserved kindness. 8 This he caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and good sense, 9 in that he made known to us the SACRED SECRET of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself 10 FOR AN ADMINISTRATION at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, to gather all things together again in the Christ, the things in the heavens and the things on the earth. . .

    Keep track of the fact that Paul is talking to all of the sons of “Israel” or congregation of “Israel”, those of circumcised heart and ear, the true Jews. Note that the adoption of Jesus as a son of the Kingdom of God was just the first fruits or first productive achievement of God, by covenant and ransom, and was the first son repurchased by Yahweh.

    Jesus was born to Mary who was a seed by physical descent from Abraham as the world calculates it. But more importantly she was an offspring of Abraham as God sees it, as she was also circumcised of heart and ear making her a true Jew. This made her one of the sons of Israel, by her faith, in the same way. She was married to Joseph also a seed of Abraham and a true Jew, thus Jesus came under Joseph’s headship and household, one condemned as dead by the law. Joseph and Mary, both being offspring of Abraham by faith and part of the “Israel of God”, were awaiting a messiah to repurchase them. Again Jesus as a child came under this household condemned by the law, but having the inheritance of the promises made to Abraham because of Joseph’s and Mary’s frame of mind, as offspring of Abraham.

    On reaching adulthood Jesus presented himself to Yahweh, exercising his faith in the things heard; thus as an adult he became an offspring of Abraham and a member of the true “Israel of God”. At baptism he was then adopted as a “Son of God” and received a token of that promised relationship, the holy spirit, a process by which he crossed from being legally dead by law, to alive in the eyes of God by fulfillment of the law.

    (Hebrews 5:5) 5 So too the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but [was glorified by him] who spoke with reference to him: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father.”

    As the only perfect “son of Israel”, Jesus was the first to cross over from death to life by promise, because as the only perfect man having fulfilled the law, he could deliver the ransom price for Yahweh, and was promised an out-resurrection as a “son of Israel” through God’s delivered price of repurchase, God’s son’s life. Because a promise from Yahweh is as good as done, Jesus was the first to be born again by promise. Jesus secured the promise of an out- resurrection for himself and the others of his earthly “kingdom”. He became the first fruits of Yahweh’s work on mankind’s behalf. Jesus became the first “new creation”, being the first born from the dead or condemned state, the first to take on immortality. This meant that the rest of the “sons of Israel”, in their turn, could cross from death to life and receive the token of spirit of adoption, along with its affect of increased mental capacity allowing them to make their minds over by following the same path that Jesus followed to return to his and our Father. Also mankind, or at least those of right frame of mind, were reconciled to God so that they also were given a hope of an out- resurrection by the ransom, supplied by Yahweh and delivered by Jesus. These sons by adoption receive the fulfillment of their promise of life during the first resurrection, or “out resurrection”, referring to the out of the grave resurrection of the righteous as it is put in the original language. All of the “Israel of God” who are circumcised of heart can be called sons because of the promise, even though they have not received more than a token of adoptive spirit. Still because of the dependability of Yahweh, they can be said to have crossed over from death to life, having heard and accepted the knowledge leading to life by that promise, all making their minds over through the truth Jesus revealed, which they now could and can understand using the spirit’s increased mental capacity. All sons are anointed by this knowledge, the knowledge that only they can understand, “see”. All have become offspring of Abraham, sons of Israel, true Jews. This either by their stands while in the nation of Israel, or their stands outside of the “nation of Israel” where they have been grafted into the original root and become part of the twelve tribes that Jesus rules over for a thousand years.

    (1 John 2:20-21) 20 And YOU have an anointing from the holy one; all of YOU have knowledge. 21 I write YOU, not because YOU do not know the truth, but because YOU know it, and because no lie originates with the truth.

    We see now the importance of the Good News of the Administration that was to govern over the repurchased “Israel”.

    Yet, only a remnant accepted Jesus as Messiah and were saved. These were the ones that joyfully hailed him as the “king of Israel.” Ro 9:27; 11:7Joh 1:49; 12:12, 13

    Again keep in mind that those who hailed him as king did so on earth and Jesus was anointed on earth not only by the knowledge of the truth in his reality, revealed to him by the Father, but also by exercising that truth he was anointed as king by Yahweh at his baptism.

    The fact that only a remnant hailed him makes no difference in that they constituted the “Israel of God” in their day. Keep in mind that the “nation of Israel” and the “Israel of God” were never interchangeable. From the time the “Israel of God” was formed it has continued as the “Israel of God”, made up of only the true sons by frame of mind, as Abraham’s offspring. Thus they were Abraham’s offspring, and this “congregation of Israel”, kingdom, was present when Jesus was born. The “Israel of God” or “Israel” was being misguided or at least poorly guided by the organizational provision, or more appropriately administration of its day, the “nation of Israel” the “old builders. When Jesus presented himself to do God’s will, part of that will was that he present himself to this physical organization, the “nation of Israel” or state of Israel, the builders of his day, to be the new king, to rule over the congregation of “Israel” (“Israel of God”) and to deliver it from darkness. The “old builders”, the “nation” over the house of God, on rejecting Jesus were rejected forever themselves. That’s right, there are no longer Jews in the nation of Israel.

    This will easily confuse anyone who has not realized the nature of what Paul was explaining in Romans about “who really is a Jew?” and as such “who really are the sons of Israel”. It did confuse most in his day since the state of Israel or nation had its senses dulled. We must always keep the greater picture in mind as we remember who really constituted the “Israel of God .

    Paul was chosen by God because he was one of the foremost of the Nation of Israel. He as such had the great weakness of the “Nation” of Israel, pride and arrogance in their physical connection to Abraham. Also, although he was writing under the influence of the holy spirit, he did not, as many of the other Bible writers, realize the full depth of his writing . This is shown by the thought he expressed that he had been a “Jew” before he came to follow Jesus. He evidently missed the statement by the angel of God at Revelation 2:8, 9 ,

    (Revelation 2:8, 9) . . .“And to the angel of the congregation in Smyr′na write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life [again], 9 ‘I know your tribulation and poverty—but you are rich—and the blasphemy by those who say they themselves are Jews, and yet they are not but are a synagogue of Satan. . .

    Paul as a leading persecutor of the true Jews, certainly fit this description. At times it is necessary to address people of the world in the terms that the world recognizes so perhaps this explains Paul’s appearance that he lacked realization on this point in some instances. Also remember that when statements like “they went into the synagogue of the Jews” are made, these places were in fact buildings that were supplied by the provision Yahweh put in place for the use of the true Jew.

    Again If you note in the scripture below, Matthew 21:43, that the kingdom of God was already among the nation of Israel and was to be given to a nation who would produce its fruits, this was a process needing time. you can begin to see that this kingdom was the remnant that was delivered and was made up of only the “sons of Israel” that had accepted Jesus as their king.

    (Matthew 21:42-43) . . .Jesus said to them: “Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Yahweh this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU and be given to a nation producing its fruits. . .

    (Romans 9:6-7) . . .However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children,. . .
    One might add here, and as such also are not Jews.

    (Luke 1:16-17) 16 and many of the sons of Israel will he turn back to Yahweh their God. 17 Also, he will go before him with E•li′jah’s spirit and power, to turn back the hearts of fathers to children and the disobedient ones to the practical wisdom of righteous ones, to get ready for Yahweh a prepared people.”

    (Galatians 3:26-4:7) . . .YOU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise. 4 Now I say that as long as the heir is a babe he does not differ at all from a slave, lord of all things though he is, 2 but he is under men in charge and under stewards until the day his father appointed beforehand. 3 Likewise we also, when we were babes, continued enslaved by the elementary things belonging to the world. 4 But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent forth his Son, who came to be out of a woman and who came to be under law, 5 that he might release by purchase those under law, that we, in turn, might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Now because YOU are sons, God has sent forth the spirit of his Son into our hearts and it cries out: “Abba, Father!” 7 So, then, you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, also an heir through God.

    It should be added here that Paul was trying his best to show that frame of mind determines all relationships with God. You gain your approach to Christ first and are adopted by God after. This is what Paul meant by “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one [person] in union with Christ Jesus.”

    In Galatians 3:26-4:7 it shows the process of putting on Christ, the same process as putting on incorruptibleness, or putting on incorruptible apparel, a process of putting on immortality in relationship with Yahweh the only being who has immortality. We put on immortality by making our minds over and then when complete enter into a reality where there will be no natural death. As long as we continue in accord with the Father, Yahweh, we will not die.

    In verse 5 one might mistake the statement as saying that Jesus is the repurchaser, while it is only saying that Jesus delivered the price for Yahweh and because of this repurchase, the offspring of Abraham might be adopted by Yahweh as their eternal Father (“sons of God,”). By adoption, you from the nations have become part of the congregation of “Israel” and thus heirs by adoption as “sons of God”.

    The kingdom interests of God on earth were transferred to Jesus as king over this congregation of “Israel” while on earth, then transferred by promise to him in the heavens, as God’s son. Jesus being the head of the congregation was head of the New Administration. It has been taken from the old builders (the physical administration or state of Israel) who have rejected the Christ, and has been given over to this New Administration, headed by our king Jesus, and will be administered by 144,000 of the sons bought from among you, the sons of Israel, offspring of Abraham , true Jews ( which now includes those grafted in), as kings and priests under Jesus.

    This is “Good News” indeed when you realize that by ransom this Administration had taken over the fate of both the living and the dead, the “Israel of God” by their faith (Ro 9: 1-18). This faith can now be pursued with accurate knowledge from our Lord Jesus Christ, through Jehovah’s gift of the “spirit of understanding” as it will be discussed in the section “The Last Gift”.

    In closing, knowing who the “kingdom among you” refers to allows us to also see who make up the twelve tribes that Jesus rules over for the thousand year reign. Paul puts it nicely:

    (Romans 9:6-8) . . .However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed.

  44. Traveler says:

    Trinity

    The “theory of the Trinity” is fixed clearly in history with an author and a history of development if development is what it can be called. Development of this theory amounts to a series of authors’ opinions down to our time. Really the “theory” of the Trinity was never based on three individuals but two individuals and an active force called holy spirit. Because of the original tongue that the letters/writings forming the Bible were written in, the term “he” was used in relation to the holy spirit because the tongue had no word for “it”. This is also a well-known fact. But the popular misconception that the holy spirit was, in fact, an individual “he” because of this, led to such a large population of laymen holding this misconception that the churches finally just gave in and allowed the general population to continue calling it “he”. If your minister went to the Bible college of your denomination he should be able to confirm what we’ve said here, that is unless he’s been instructed not to. It seems to have been adopted by the scholars of most denominations that this would just confuse the laymen in their congregation.

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    This article is about the Christian Trinity. Part of a series on Jesus Christ is the central figure of Christianity…..

    Tertullian, a Latin theologian who wrote in the early 3rd century, is credited with using the words “Trinity”,[15] “person” and “substance”[16] to explain that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are “one in essence—not one in Person”.[17]

    About a century later, in 325AD, the First Council of Nicaea established the doctrine of the Trinity as orthodoxy and adopted the Nicene Creed, which described Christ as “God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance (homoousios) with the Father”.

    Yeah there’s a mouth full. Note essence/substance is where the “theory” began that the three were of the same stuff, so in short that’s how the “theory” of the trinity became the “Doctrine” of the Trinity. It is always a source of puzzlement that so many are involved with this theory without ever looking it up. There appears to be no awareness in the general laymen’s population that the theory has a date of origin and an author, and that it was never originally debatable as being in the Bible. Again most would find it puzzling to hear that the theory didn’t start with three individuals at all but with two individuals holding divine energy, God the Father and his Son, and the divine energy that these two used to create and affect the creation, “one in essence—not one in Person”. So what we have is three parts of divine energy forming a triune, eventually called a trinity, a trinity of essence. The fact that opinions put forward to attempt to make this theory work have been many, and continue to be put forward by the scholars escapes most, even though the theory is openly acknowledged by these scholars as having no firm basis in the Bible. It would seem that this debate alone should suggest that it is not in the Bible.

    Before we wind up in a long debate we suggest that if you haven’t researched the “theory” yourself, you do so. We are going to give you a starting point, an internet link to a scholarly paper. It was written by a man researching the theory of the trinity and its eventual misconception in the eye of the public at large. It was written for his doctorate dissertation at Stanford University. Be sure to read all of it, but we suggest you take special note of the supplement, the “history of the trinity”. Once you have done so we’re sure most followers of the “theory” will realize they are not sure where their idea/theory of trinity fits into the existing thoughts, or that maybe it doesn’t fit at all. Our position is that it is a waste of the short time we have to consider it at all.

    We say this with love for you, our sincere brothers and sisters, that if after all this you are still of an opinion that you have a grip on how the “theory” might make sense, we suggest you stop wasting your time and talent on lesser minds and go explain your position to the other great minds still trying to make it work. However, we might point out Matthew 11:25.

    (Matthew 11:25) . . .At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to babes. . .

    Below are the links we mentioned that we believe should clear this up for any serious mind who wishes to pursue truth within the self-evident reality of the Bible.

    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/trinity-history.html
    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/

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