SECOND DEATH - Talk Below
Revelation 20:
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Hint: When did the book of life open? Today or after the thousand years?
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Some of us have been told that if we leave an organization or do not believe certain doctrines, or sin by leaving after having "the truth"it will result in our going into second death.
This is an interesting talk on that subject for you to decide from scripture. Bob Carnegie a brother from the Bible students movement gives his perspective. He's a good man just trying to give us some things to think about. Enjoy and Thank you
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Jacqueline,
It’s not spurious not because I don’t agree with it but because it makes no sense. Read it in 20:5,6. How can you reign for 1,000 years yet not come to life until after the 1,000 years have ended? It makes no sense which is why it’s been called into question. That’s why it’s spurious.
Rev 20:5,6
“The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION . 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST RESURRECTION : over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be PRIESTS of God and of Christ, and shall REIGN WITH HIM A THOUSAND YEARS.”
Question. How can they come to life after the 1,000 years yet have reigned with him during those 1,000 years? And we know that these aren’t two groups of people mentioned here because it says the come and reign with him has priests.
Jacqueline,
I think the scripture you’re referring to says “and the rest of the dead do not come to life until after the thousand years have ended. This is the first resurrection .” Rev 20:5 We believe that’s spurious. Reason why is because at the end of that verse it says “This is the FIRST resurrection.” Then it says immediately in vs 6 “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the FIRST resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”
So how can one reign for 1,000 years yet not be raised until the end of the 1,000 years have ended? It says they will come to life in the first frasircwtion after the 1,000 years have ended yet they will reign for 1,000 years. Hmmm
Christopher thanks for commenting. I have found texts are sometimes rendered spurious because it does not agree with long-held beliefs. And it might have been put in the margin but that is spurious also. Scholars aren’t sure so all mostly have to add it. Some because it harmonizes with the next verses.
That is not the part of the Revelation I am referring to, not verse 5.
Notice carefully verse 7. Then Read verses 11 onward of chapter 20. Revelation is a Revealing, not a concealing, It has its own outline, in the beginning, the things John has seen, the things happening and future events.
Even some Bible minded BS are looking at Revelation with their eyes in a group because of the doctrines of the witnesses and the simplistic doctrine of the BS. There seems to be more.
I keep in mind that years probably pass (don’t know how many on this resurrection) before Revelation 21 begins but this actual reading beyond verse 5 tells us it is as neat and tidy as Russell makes it seem. I have to keep in mind Russell and the governing body has an agenda, to raise them to rulership in heaven.
BTW, the Bible actually says Christ will rule on the throne of David on earth for the thousand years and the ones He meets in the air are to rule with him on earth. They are seen in Heaven later as the angel tells John. “Come let me show you the Bride. He shows him where she lives.
Satan Bound
1Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the Abyss, holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3And he threw him into the Abyss, shut it, and sealed it over him so that he could not deceive the nations until the thousand years were complete. After that, he must be released for a brief period of time.
4Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years were complete. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
Satan Cast into the Lake of Fire
7When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.
9And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them. 10And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, into which the beast and the false prophet had already been thrown. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Judgment Before the Great White Throne
11Then I saw a great white throne and the One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne.
And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their deeds, as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead, and each one was judged according to his deeds.
14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15And if anyone was found whose name was not written in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(2 cor 11:3) But I am afraid that somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve in his craftiness, so your minds might be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
(Matt. 22)
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 A second likewise is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’
40 The whole law and the prophets depend on these two commandments.”
(Gal. 5)
14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
(Matt 7)
12 Therefore, whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Imagine ALL of those who live in a land where the gospel is outlawed and there are no bibles. If they knew only these scriptures and applied them daily, what would be their end? Just a thought for today.
Lee Anthony and there are some lands where they don’t have Bibles and have only heard about the love Jesus showed in dying for us and God gave HIS only begotten son.
This awareness of Love and doing what our God-given conscience says about treating others have made them martyrs for Christ. Their end will be the first resurrection hopefully.
Hey, and are you aware that the Bible actually says the 2nd resurrection takes place after the thousand years are ended?
THERE IS PROBABLY A “Gap of years” but I always thought it happened during the thousand years. The thousand years is not judgment day, per se for the 2nd resurrection. I am sure this takes some years but how do you see this???
39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
In the Septuagint (3rd–1st centuries BCE), Greek παράδεισος parádeisos was used to translate both Hebrew פרדס pardes and Hebrew גן gan, “garden” (e.g. (Genesis 2:8, Ezekiel 28:13): it is from this usage that the use of “paradise” to refer to the Garden of Eden derives.
The King and Queen had beautiful gardens where visitors would meet but not actually be inside the Palace or before the King. It can mean a holding place for those that are waiting to enter the presence of the King.
So I was thinking that Jesus and the Thief were indeed together that day for the both died in the “Garden” or Paradise that day. We don’t really have to mess with the comma if we look at Paradise meaning from a Jewish – Greek perspective.
Sometimes it could take three days for a person to die during crucifixion but because of the Sabbath coming up the other men legs were broken and everybody died that day.
Jesus didn’t rise until 3 days later but both of them were waiting. Lazarus was raised on the fourth day and the others on the day they died.
Sheoul received Jesus and the Thief that day but the thief has got the opportunity to be with Jesus in the kingdom when He rules from Jerusalem during the thousand years.
Just another viewpoint on a difficult to understand scripture.
Lee Anthony
That would be great! Sister Jacqueline has my email address and phone number. I am free both days and Columbus is only an hour and a half for me. Let me know what works for you. If you email me it will be more private.
Take care!
I sent it to him Ted.
Hey Ted.
My family and I will be in Ohio on the 29th and 30th of this month for some business that my wife has to attend to. We will be staying around Columbus, not sure what hotel just yet but if you can get away just to meet up and talk a bit that would be good. Will see what happens with our schedule between now and then.
Lee
I agree. I notice that many ex-JW’s and Bible Students cling to the “anointed class” interpretation. The Bible to me clearly states that there is “One hope, on Lord and one baptism”. Nowhere have I seen two separate classes of Christians. I am also coming to the conclusion that the 144000 could be a symbolic number, but I have not yet set this in stone, I am still contemplating the possibility and arguments. While Christ will select a Bride composed of those faithful to death, that determination is made by Christ himself and it is not up to us to claim a special relationship with him while we yet live. All of us who have accepted Christ and strive to follow his footsteps are anointed with Gods Spirit and have that one hope!
TedR, I thought that maybe I should call attention to verse 10 of Revelation 5:1-10. Please note where they shall reign at the end of verse 10. ON THE EARTH not over it from heaven. This is another instance also where the numbers in Revelation are not literal as I was informed by the Bible students. They say all numbers are in Revelation are exact, not true.
Revelation
6 And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. 7 And he went and took the scroll from the right hand of him who was seated on the throne. 8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying,
“Worthy are you to take the scroll
and to open its seals,
for you were slain, and by your blood, you ransomed people for God
from every tribe and language and people and nation,
10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God,
and they shall reign on the earth.”
TedR, I agree that there was such a “Privileged” me attitude among followers of Russell in most of the groups, even Johnson. It does not endear you to such haughtiness. We forget why Jesus came and the focus goes on them as special people. I still saw the dumbing down of Jesus and His ransoming ALL of Adam’s descendants. He is the go’el, the next of kin in the leverate arrangement so that Adam offspring (seed) will live. It is not about the Church, the way I see it. I see it being about Jehovah’s provision for salvation. Which includes 1,000 years of Christ sitting on the throne of David and as Revelation 5:10 says to rule with him on earth, the 24 elders who are the saints.
This is the simple way I see it without making it too complicated
TedR also while I am talking about things I can’t see from my former associations with the Witnesses and the Bible students which is really Russell’s teachings.
Jesus is not an Angel, He is a God (John 1:1). He said as he ascended that all power was given into his hands.
In Revelation 1: we see Jehovah told him and He told an angel to go tell John. He sends angels for he is a God he is divine but not Jehovah his father nor equal to Him/
Michael is the ARC ANGEL. He is a warrior that fights! He helped the angel who was fighting with the “Prince of Persia” (Satan’s prince) in the book of Daniel. While Daniel started to pray the angel went forth but was delayed for 21 days.
Jesus has all power over death and Hades and Michael goes at his command to siege the dragon and binds him for 1,000 years.
All Jews know of the defender of the Jews Michael the Arc Angel.
Jesus is not their Angel He is the Messiah they are looking for, their Ruler. Only Russell followers (all the different break a ways existing today) are confused about what the Jews are not.
There is no scripture that I can find that says Jesus is Michael in his prehuman existence nor afterward.
Stephen said he saw Jesus sitting at the right hand of God for He took is a God and not an Angel/
Angels don’t have immortality, JESUS DOES!
This thing Russell and his followers have that diminishes Jesus puzzles me??? He was indeed a man but was more than the ransom needed to redeem us. And if he was doing a leverate as with Boaz and Ruth then that could explain why this overkill of redemption came to die for mankind. A Ransom has to be the sum asked but it can be much more than asked. He was much more because he raised the dead and cured the sick, Adam never did that. So he was a man and then some.
I am going outdoors to do some yard work but I just had to get that out of my system as the spirit revealed.
BTW, thanks for posting because I check the stats on the website and we had:
50 cities and 12 countries that check the website almost every day. They normally look for new content. So My new intern is going to revamp the site and post new article also. One of her assignments is she should attend and run the board on Saturday night. So look for some improvements.
Also, I should have grabbed askjacqueline.com while I had the name share for 260.00 now that designation sells for over 2500.00 dollars. If we were on that our numbers would soar. Us having this ask Jacqueline and another you tuber has made that an expensive name on .com. I should have bought it earlier, boo-hoo.
TedR I agree with every thought you have expressed! A BS elder told me all numbers in Revelation are literal but not so, the 24 elders represent the Saints. So Jesus gave Revelation in signs and symbols. To limit who rules to just a small number was adopted to fit certain classes of men around 1800’s til now.
I see the contrast of Israel with every nation, tribe and tongue not small number contrasted with big number. Always two ways or more to look freshly at scripture. We have been captives of a Concept. That Concept being the world ending in 1914, 1925, 1975, now 2038 by Bible Students.
Pearl Doxsey Posted this on Facebook. Any comments? An interesting and supported take on Armageddon. May be worth researching.
Pearl Doxsey
22 hrs ·
Watchtower doctrine teaches that the “thousand years” of Jesus is literal, and that it takes place after Armageddon. That is not what the Bible indicates. Please look for yourself…
Rev.20: “7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them FOR BATTLE. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the EARTH and surrounded the camp of God’s saints” (Some translations read “God’s people”, who are also the anointed -see 1Pet.2:9-10)
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
Do you see from this, that the anointed will be surrounded while on earth? (Just as they are during the great tribulation -see Luke21:20).
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
Does not the WT teach that after Armageddon and after the thousand years, that all the anointed are in heaven?
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The WT teaches that Jesus symbolic “thousand year” kingdom, started in 1914… but the Bible shows that Jesus kingdom started when he was on earth (see Luke 22:69; Ps.110:1-2; 1Cor.15:25).
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
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The WT teaches that the “thousand year” kingdom of Jesus will be one of peace. But the Bible indicates that it is a period during which, Jesus wars with and subdues his enemies, through the members of Zion. That warfare is not physical, but spiritual. (Ps.110:2; 2Cor.10:3-5; Rev.19:11,14; 17:14; Eph.2:6; 6:12).
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
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The WT teaches that the Battle that occurs after Satan’s release, is not Armageddon. The Bible indicates that the attack on the holy ones by Satan, the false prophet, and it’s Beast organization, IS Armageddon. It is the situation where all must decide where they stand… either with the truths of scripture, or with the demonic lies of the false prophet.
Rev.20:7-8,10; 16:13-16; 17:14; 16:14; 1Tim.4:1; Matt.24:24-25; Rev.13:7,10; Col.2:8
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/…
TedR, I knew Pearl before she left, tried to get her to just walk away and, not engage the elders. She was a very strong Christian. But not strong enough in her spirit to realize the evil personal assault to your spirit by men you have known for so long.
She bounced back after the disfellowshipping with Holy Spirit help. It was so difficult for her to have her name read from the platform.
Her post:
Those are good points to consider, I, however, do not see scripture as anointed individuals to rule. I never understood “Anointing” in the witnesses, as all anointing in the Bible with oil etc was open and not shrouded in mystery.
I also believe Jesus will come again and fulfill the scripture to sit on the “Throne of David”. Just as he fulfilled every little scripture while dying he has to fulfill this one on earth. David does not have a throne in heaven.
Priest and Kings for a thousand years are not needed in Heaven. Rulership is covered already in heaven. In fact we Pray for the Will of God to be done on earth as it IS in heaven.
I also agree with Paul that he had not attained his call to be wherever Christ would be but he pressed on for the upward call as ALL Christian do. Toward his death only did he declare “I have fought the fine fight”. Like Jesus on the Crux. “Be ye faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life” so says our Lord. “We are all brothers now, so says the Bible. The death of Christ was to redeem ALL mankind, not about giving anointed positions of power over man. The whole premise of this anointed power is out of kilter with witnesses and ex, I think.
Perhaps some Jehovah witnesses and ex witnesses have been told they are picked special from all Christians to be of 144,000. But where it is mentioned in Revelation it doesn’t say that. He mentions 3 aspects of the choosing of this number then shows other national groups with no number.
Many of the scriptures are the same as quoted in the comment so I won’t repost them but something to look at, the basic premise is based on special anointed ones of the Jehovah Witnesses.
Gen 3:24 “So He drove out the man and stationed cherubim on the east side of the Garden of Eden, along with a whirling sword of flame to guard the way to the tree of life.”
2Kings 19:35 “And that very night the angel of the LORD went out and struck down 185,000 men in the camp of the Assyrians. When the people got up the next morning, there were all the dead bodies!” “The Way” is mentioned several times in the book of Acts (Acts 9:2; 19:9, 23; 22:4; 24:14, 22) in connection with early followers of Christ. It was to take prisoner men and women who “belonged to the Way” (Acts 9:2; 22:4) that Saul of Tarsus went to Damascus. After Saul was converted, he became a missionary and went by the name of Paul. In Ephesus, Paul met some in the synagogue who “became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way” (Acts 19:9). Paul left the synagogue and continued to preach the gospel where it would be heard rather than remain with those who denigrated the Way.
John 14:6 6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Cherubim are Powerful Beings. Why not just put an angel at the WAY to the tree. One angel killed 185,000 in one night. This is best understood when we consider that Satan was the chief of Cherubim and Adam was not the problem with the regard to the Tree it was another Cherubim, satan. THE WAY to life is through Jesus so a strong angel stood to prevent Satan from showing mankind where the tree was and he would be the way.
A regular angel was no match for the cherubim satan you fight like with like, power with power. You don’t take a knife to a gun fight.
Just my understanding of why such a powerful Cherubim was put there.
A great video by a Messianic Rabbi with a wonderful explanation of the meaning of the Gentile times and further evidence that we are in the end of the Gentile Times
https://youtu.be/RBXD9xEowZ8
Intersting information on Gentile Times found at AvoidJw website:
https://avoidjw.org/en/holy-bible/the-gentile-times/2/
I missed the first Scripture in my preceding post Luke 21:24
24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
This is the only place in Scriptures where the phrase times of the Gentiles occurs. this prophecy occurs after giving his prophecy of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. Jesus alluded to the destruction of Jerusalem when he gave the real life illustration of the fig tree.
Mathew 21:18 Early in the morning, as Jesus was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, “May you never bear fruit again!” Immediately the tree withered. Why did he wither the fig tree? In the Bible the fig tree is representative of the nation of Israel. That nation had ceased to bear fruit, just as that literal fig tree had ceased to bear fruit. Jesus often used illustrations as teaching methods. So we see that the fig tree, the nation of Israel was withered and fruitless.
Not long afterward notice what he says:
Mathew 24:32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
So when will the Gentile times end? We see the beginnings happening today, the fig tree is sprouting leaves! The Israelites are returning to their homeland against all odds! But they have not yet said \”Blessed is he who comes in Gods name\”. They have not yet recognized Christ but remain hard hearted. So in my view the Gentile times cannot end until that nation is restored as prophesied in Isaiah, Ezekiel and Hosea.
The nation of Israel is still threatened by the nations, but we see that they have indeed become an independent State, capable of defending itself as proved in the six day war!
Rather than relying on dates since Christ told us that no one knows the day of the hour, in my view we should be watching that fig tree. Prophecy is being fulfilled before our eyes. The Gentile times are ending, but not yet ended. Soon will come the attack against Israel. The nations will be drawn into that great tribulation. Those who support Israel and those who oppose Israel. God, through his King Christ Jesus will rescue Israel Israel from complete destruction and they will come to know that Jesus is truly the Messiah. Christ will set up his Kingdom under the ruler ship of spiritual Israel, those who rule as Kings and Priests along side of that King.
This is at least my view of things based on my current understanding of Scripture and prophecy. Others may view it differently but in short I have to agree with you Sister Jacqueline though my reasoning may be different. 1914 dating has been proven to be misunderstood. but notice: 1874 Bible Students proclaimed the invisible return of Christ. This is inaccurate based on Scripture, but in 1878, the first Israelite settlement, the first leaf appeared. 1914 was supposed to mark the end of this system and later changed to the end of Gentile times. again a misunderstood date but interestingly it was 1918 that the Balcour declaration occurred, a few more leaves on the olive tree. 1945 the establishment of the Nation of Israel, more leaves. Recently the recognition of Jerusalem as Israel capital by Israels chief supporter and the start of the rebuilding of the temple. More leaves. But the tree has yet to be fully mature and is yet to bear fruit. Only when the Nation of Israel finally recognizes Christ can we say that the Gentile times have ended.
Okay, has anyone thought about the “End of the Gentile Times”? My thought is that this is still going on over Israel and the whole earth. Not ended as we were taught.
Could it be Armageddon that will end it? The two legs of Iron on the statue mentioned in Daniel 2: are made of Iron, or the remnants of the strong Roman government has not been conquered but broken up.
First of all, let us look at the Biblical meaning of iron and clay. What does iron denote in the Bible? Well, if you look at Psalm 2:9 and Revelation 2:27, you will see that iron is a symbol of the ruling power. So in terms of the world, iron would denote a civil ruling world power. And what about the clay? If you read Isaiah 64:8 and Jeremiah 18:1-6, you will see that clay in the Bible denotes the people of God, with the Lord Himself being the Potter.
So what is God telling us through the feet of Nebuchadnezzar’s image? He is telling us that in the last days there would be a mingling of civil power with the religion. But we are not just talking about any church. God gives us even more detail if we look closely. Take a look at the type of clay that is in the feet. It is called “miry clay” in the verses above. Meaning the clay is dirty, muddy clay. Could it mean Religions including Israel are a prominent part of society but the ruling nations and them don’t mix?
And the Stone will bring an end to them all when Christ set up rulership, his Kingdom?
Where in the Bible does it say the rulership of Christ is invisible during the thousand years and not returned on earth as his first coming?
These are just some things I have been thinking about
Any thoughts?
Thanks Jacqueline, KISS, yes we’ve heard this many times. But doesn’t it seem strange that even if you break the Bible down to a one page summary, somebody will say it doesn’t have to be that complicated. The concept of KISS suggests you address your audience on a level that they can grasp, keeping the steps of logic within the strength they have to follow the concepts you’re presenting. Now Franz knew that not many with a strong mind are called, or for that matter strong anything. We are among them. These are the ones God is making himself strong with, I won’t bother quoting the scripture. Franz considered himself a minister to the masses in the door to door work, where of course he would meet many potential beginners. As such he needed to present “milk”. However it should be quite clear that he assumed that he would also be called on to reason with those who had long been eating meat. These should easily grasp steps further “up” the path. This is the very reason we have the two volumes of the “Insight on the Scriptures”. Yes the Bible makes it very clear that many of our brothers will only eat vegetables, at least until they receive the increased capacity of the remainder of their inheritance. But does this mean that every expression must be simply “vegetables”? As Paul liked to say, “never may that happen.” Yes we know he wasn’t referring to this subject.
We assume that there are many reading the post on your site Jacqueline that have decades of Bible study. You’ve mentioned the depth of training of several contributors. If we don’t have the hang of KISS for the audience that they think we should address, they certainly should have the experience to explain the basic foundation of the Bible, as we’ve presented it, to the general population whose head we’ve gone “over”.
We hate to say it but either KISS or “why you” have been the constant reply to our presentations. This has been the case when we’ve presented in person, or when we’ve posted. It is always a strange thing to see in the eyes, either physically or the mind’s eye, that really they do get it. But they still ask “why you?” How silly it must have sounded to hear Jesus questioned that way. What does the person presenting have to do with your mind when it “sees” logic. Yes we know we are not Jesus and could be wrong about some of the positions we’ve presented. However, we doubt that we could be wrong about all of it. If some of what we are saying is right it is certainly enough to change the reality of anyone who is willing to, reason just a little, (RJAL).
As far as we can tell most of you left off the avenue of pursuit you once had after many years without satisfactory growth, or as we say distance covered. We also assume since you are still here you have always been honest hearted, wanting to come to know. You’ve known the direction to go for almost as many years, so now you can pursue a relationship of REASON with God yourself, as we suspect you always thought was the case. It now can be done without the blessings of the priest , elder, or guy that lives down the street. We compliment you on your progress. Saying this to you may somehow seem wrong. We compliment you because it is no small step “up” the path, to have your mind set free.
You, Jacqueline, keep saying “we are free to think now”; more power to you(spirit). All who face towards reason find it is painful at first. It threatens their position some how, or they realize that if they take a “stand”, it will isolate them from family and friends. Of course, the Bible says it will. We’ll admit, having a few thousand or million to associate with is a great draw to overcome. Certainly the “nation” of Israel and those who thought they were Jews did not. Only a few true Jews did so. The true Jew did not ask, “why you?” when presented with a new line of logic. I mean our brother was doing powerful physical things to prove that he was God’s son, and even then the vast majority of people would not reason. Why would these miracles be necessary then? It was to move those living in a nation, who were lost, to again take “up” the path of reason. They had all around them physical proof of God’s past support. You, on other hand do not. What you do have is so many divisions of religious pursuit, that I’m sure it must have to be calculated almost daily to have an accurate count. You must see why those who find reason in the time of the end are given the privilege of walking into the new system without seeing death. That is when you look at the task before you.
We’ve given you one post, an historic fact, that should be able to free your minds from almost every religious division, the history of the trinity. The witnesses you’ve already seen through.
Only a fool would not know in advance that all religious pursuits have a certain amount of powerful truth on which they are “built”, doctrine right. The Buddhists , the Muslims, even the worshipers of Satan do or how could they have performed magic. But once you’ve seen that the direction relies on a “leap of faith”, leap without logic, why spend the little life you have trying to continue “down” that path. The point in KISS format is then, why after all the years of Bible study would you still be arguing about basics?
We’re not saying it’s easy to take a stand, given some of the material that the Bible really does present. If you need scholars of Bible study to back ” up” some of our concepts, (oh how we love the connection with frame of mind the Bible constantly reaffirms), it will not take too much effort to find ones to show you that those of Jesus’ time did not believe that they would leave their God-given home to go to heaven, no matter how many times the translators put it into their new versions of the Bible. In fact, we have some scholars on file.
We’d love to have talked to Franz as he sat reflecting on the huge amount of work he and his writing team did while tracing out the lines of thought they pursued in the Bible, at least in “light” of the fact that he had been set free from the world of religion. We wish he would have had the time. It’s obvious that he was severely wounded by the actions of the organization, or his effort at writing an exposé showing the weakness in the trains of thought used to promote the door to door work would most certainly have been more towards helping us to move many steps “up” the path of reason. On the other hand, we still have time, brothers and sisters. Really we would rather put it this way, fellow minds, standing beside us, learning from God have time. This is the way the original writings put it and rightly so, “standing beside each other learning from God”. Even Jesus stands beside us when learning from God. Also, even as Adam and Eve did as partners before the fall (no longer standing erect), each standing before God as their head, learning. God being all things to everyone.
Since we’ve surely “up” set someone, here’s just one more chance to do so, a thought.
We know that in this system while existing in “slaves form”, women are to be considered a weaker vessel in consideration of their body. We also know that mentally, spiritually, they will do the bulk of the work of directing those whose lives are going to be saved. Yep, you know the prophecies.
Why would it be fit that women be in a weaker vessel now? Why would it be fit that they carry the bulk of the work of saving lives? Why would it be fit that they are under man’s headship, now?
If you needed a partner in the garden, would you wish for a weaker one? Doubtful isn’t it. Why did Satan approach Eve first? You can work it out. Yes we know that wasn’t called for, speculation. But if you are really free of sexism, prejudice or ego, look at it in true humility. What advantage would your gift be to you only? How would it raise you above your fellow pursuer, partner? How is it you would not welcome a stronger partner, in gifts, standing beside you before God? For the measure of each one of us added, we are stronger. My partner and I have often reflected on the realization we both have had, that neither of us is half of what we are together. Consider that our connection now is only based on a token of what is to come when love between minds is forever seen clearly. We’re sure Adam found the same thing .Yes Eve peered into areas of thought she should not have. She entertained the idea that God might not be the one to decide right and wrong. She considered that there was a possibility of the unknown, even within God’s mind without maintaining right perspective, given the self-evident truth around her. She should rather have looked elsewhere with the power of mind that she possessed. She should have looked at the nature of the existence she had and the fact that it lead to life. She should have looked elsewhere because much like Satan the Beautiful, she the powerful just fell short. She was deceived. Now Adam was not deceived, but valued his relationship with his partner so highly, he valued it higher than his relationship with God. How strong and deep does that sound to you?
Adam knew that Eve would die. He knew that taking the fruit he also would die. The depth of his reason was not deep enough to know that God offered on-going existence through right thinking, and that the “mind” of God gave the very gifts in the partner joined to him that he now valued. If Adam truly “understood” he would not have let his frame of mind be changed to hold the values he now held. He would have maintained his stand under God. Hopefully given the same test you will remain.
Please put away your preconceived notions based on a group within which “no flesh could be saved if the time had not been cut short”, the groups you’ve just left or are in the process of leaving.
Please, peer into the realty we are in. You’ll find God, gods, the Great adventure, and hopefully yourself, an immortal.
See we have spared you from some things.
Sincerely, truly with love and affection, the travelers
P.S. that’s travelers, not Traveler and wife, we pursue side by side. Your sentiment is noted and appreciated though by my partner and wife.
Thanks for your comments Traveler and Wife.
Travelers, duly noted. I haven’t read your entire post but on the first part. KISS and the simplicity of the doctrine.
The donkey saw, understood not to proceed and spoke. So the Power of God, his Holy Spirit can help even a dumb animal understand simply if you try to go thru that angel you will die. Now how do you get around this? Tell your rider what you see. Simple and effective.
Jehovah wants everybody to come to a full knowledge of truth and during Christ visible realm we know ALL will. This indicates that individuals can with Help from God and speaking,digging, listening and reading understand God’s word. That to me is the beauty of the Bible. He can hide and reveal as the situations in our individual lives change. I believe Christ redemption allows us as individuals to understand what we need plus commune with others on their understanding and together we have a nutritious spiritual meal. Some of us go deeper, Christians raising family keep it on their level etc.
The point is all of us have special revelations from God as like every parent we deal with each child separately. He can deal with billion children at a time, so Great and Poerful He is.
So that us why this site is here so we can all share our revelations from God through His Spirit and written word.
1. God was everything to everyone.
2. Lost approved frame of mind, question of God\’s sovereignty asked. Man becomes legally dead to God.
3. Jesus is transferred, fulfills the law, crosses back from legally dead to alive, reborn/new creation. Mankind is reconciled to God through these actions, meaning mankind also now has an approach to cross over from death to life. From this point those who cross over are alive to God, even when in the condition of physical death. Jesus becomes king over those who are dead legally and alive legally. Jesus also has the keys to the grave. This is because none can be permanently destroyed until the question of God\’s sovereignty is answered.
4. All who cross from death to life legally receive the token of adoption, a quantity of holy spirit with its increased mental capacity. This helps us \”see Jesus\”, or in other words understand the truth he reveals.
5. Armageddon, or I should say just before Jesus returns, seen only by his true followers at which time all those who have crossed over from death to life, both in the grave and living are brought together by the \”out resurrection\”. These are then given the remainder of their inheritance resulting in a full compliment of holy spirit. The resulting increase in mental capacity does away with sin through weakness or lack of understanding. We see clearly now.
6. Those who did not receive an \”out-resurrection, received a resurrection to judgment. Resurrection means to stand before God, receiving the reward due. They remained under law already judged, dead now both legally and physically.
7. Satan and his angels are thrown into the abyss.
8. Jesus shares his inheritance as son of God and calls 144,000 of his brothers out of us the sons of Israel, the true Jews, who followed him to be received in the \”air\” to replace the now deposed \”god of the air\” Satan , as one part inheritors, to be part of the rule of the earth, the new Jerusalem.
9. The thousand year reign of Jesus begins.
10. The last test is when the earth has returned to health both physically and spiritually, and is filled with a great number of what we call perfect mankind. Will this large number stand when Satan is released to go misleading the entire inhabited earth? Evidently not. Even though many have seen the old system and the damage that going a-\”way\” from God did will still fall. At the end of this short period of test by Satan, the question of God\’s sovereignty will at last be answered. Satan and his followers and mankind opposed to God will have found no \”way\” to live, and their options will have come to a close. Satan and his followers, those now dead of mankind and in the grave will not have called on Jesus The option of an out resurrection past the need for a grave will no longer be necessary, and will be done away with. Those in this state, dead, will also be destroyed. The concept of the grave will no longer be. Death will no longer be a necessary concept. Everyone now alive will have put on immortality in their relationship with Yahweh. They will all have gained an approved frame of mind that is one with the Father as his son also is. Now in its original form, the kingdom of the reality under Jesus will be handed back to Yahweh\’s Kingdom and Yahweh will again be all things to everyone.
Framework of overview, based on frame of mind, simple.
Brothers and Sisters, we have mentioned before that if you don\’t start with a working overview, you will go on learning and learning without ever arriving at an accurate conclusion about anything. This is not difficult. No one of any persuasion that we are aware of, has put forward any overview other than the one we just laid out. God is everything to everyone, relationship of this kind lost with God, end result of all players and information adds up to return of God being everything to everyone again. All of this is based on nothing else, just frame of mind.
Traveler, it is refreshing to hear someone agree you can come to some conclusions. I was beginning to spin from so much discord and in fighting over scripture.
On Thursday the Spirit helps us to see what Jehovah and Jesus are saying.
Ted mentioned KISS, keep it simple stupid. Raymond Franz talked about this issue and Warren mentioned how not going beyond the scriptures but listening to God makes for understanding the simplicity of the scriptures. God is not cruel to have us need charts to understand his Divine outline to right this whole situation of sin and death. Hallelujah! We are finally free to think without already made doctrine.
Thanks for your comments Traveler and Wife.
Rena, I saw your comment to Christopher on fojw site and we discussed this subject in detail on 12/6/2019 here: http://askjacqueline.life/conference-call-using-just-the-bible-research/ got to the 12/6 posting.
Now Dave posts his summations in the form of a comment.
I also wanted to add something I thought about, that the 1st type of death has to be gone or done with before there can be the 2nd death.
The first death is still reigning supreme right now. There is no need for a second one until this one is done.
Jesus has the keys to death and hades but this second death seems to be when Jehovah has everything turned back over to him.
I tried to reason with those that were saying if you lose your crown you go into second death when nobody has a crown until they prove faithful until death and then God chooses. To me, strange teachings cloud the simply stated words of God.
Dear Jacqueline, you wrote,
\”He dealt with people one on one in the Bible by Holy Spirit. The Nation of Israel is the one he deals with as a special people as a group. They are his.\”
You hit it on the head, \”He dealt with people one on one in the Bible by Holy Spirit\”.
A \”nation\” is just that – an organization or an administration that governs a \”people\”. Individually those who were dealt with by God made up his \”holy people\”, and as such his kingdom of influence, they belonged to God. It is a common mistake to make, as Paul did, that loyalty to an organization or administration is the same as loyalty to God.
I hope that you are first of all not trying to reason though things using a paraphrased Bible like King James, where in six months the authors tried to understand the original writings, ones we still have, and then put it into their own words. How long have you been doing the same? How fit would you say you are to explain all of it?
Read Romans carefully. There is no doubt that the \”nation\” of Israel was permanently rejected along with those calling themselves Jews,
who were in fact not.
(Romans 9:1-13) 1 I am telling the truth in Christ; I am not lying, since my conscience bears witness with me in holy spirit, 2 that I have great grief and unceasing pain in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were separated as the cursed one from the Christ in behalf of my brothers, my relatives according to the flesh, 4 who, as such, are Israelites, to whom belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises;
In the original language it says \”of whom the placing the adoption of sons is\” or we might say \”among\” whom the adoption as sons is. Remember that Paul had learned that he was himself was not a Jew, a real Jew in the eyes of God, until he followed Jesus. This is why Paul wrote, \”who really is a Jew\”
5 to whom the forefathers belong and from whom the Christ [sprang] according to the flesh: God, who is over all, [be] blessed forever. Amen.
6 However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel”.
Keep track of the fact that Israel is not the same as the \”nation\” of Israel.
7Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed.
The seed by promise, those being guided and under the kingdom influence of Yahweh, compose the \”holy people\”. This also means that \”the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the law and the sacred service and the promises\” did not belong to those Israelites (members of the state of Israel) claiming fleshly connection.
(Matthew 21:42-44) . . .Jesus said to them: “Did YOU never read in the Scriptures, ‘The stone that the builders (nation) rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone. From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 This is why I say to YOU, The kingdom of God will be taken from YOU ( the old builders) and be given to a nation producing its fruits. 44 Also, the person falling upon this stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.”
So the kingdom was taken from one \”nation\” and given to another \”nation\”.
(Luke 20:9-18) . . .Then he started to tell the people this illustration: “A man planted a vineyard and let it out to cultivators, and he traveled abroad for considerable time. 10 But in due season he sent out a slave to the cultivators, that they might give him some of the fruit of the vineyard. The cultivators, however, sent him away empty, after beating him up. 11 But he repeated and sent them a different slave. That one also they beat up and dishonored and sent away empty. 12 Yet again he sent a third; this one also they wounded and threw out. 13 At this the owner of the vineyard said, ‘What shall I do? I will send my son the beloved. Likely they will respect this one.’ 14 When the cultivators caught sight of him they went reasoning with one another, saying, ‘This is the heir; let us kill him, that the inheritance may become ours.’ 15 With that they threw him outside the vineyard and killed him. What, therefore, will the owner of the vineyard do to them? 16 He will come and destroy these cultivators and will give the vineyard to others.” On hearing [this] they said: “Never may that happen!” 17 But he looked upon them and said: “What, then, does this that is written mean, ‘The stone which the builders rejected, this has become the chief cornerstone’? 18 Everyone falling upon that stone will be shattered. As for anyone upon whom it falls, it will pulverize him.”
Romans 9:7 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed.
Those of the kingdom, the true Jews that followed Jesus.
The other issue you raised, who goes to heaven, we\’ll go over again soon. In the meantime take another look at:
(1 Thessalonians 4:15-18) . . .For this is what we tell YOU by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep [in death]; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord. 18 Consequently keep comforting one another with these words.
This is a description of the \”out-resurrection\”. Bible translators who lack understanding that the nature of resurrection which has nothing to do with the giving of life, change \”out-resurrection\” from the original tongue to the \”first resurrection\”. No matter how you look at it this resurrection happens to earth, not heaven. It also does not mention going to heaven afterward. This event does however show how and when the 144,000 are separated to meet Jesus, hidden, to meet in the \”air\” to form the new administration of earth, New Jerusalem.
We apologize for the slash marks. They seem to be added after we hit post.
Didn’t notice the slashes. I asked and thought Greg could write an article for the fojw site to help some of the men coming. Here also thought he could write. I was told any articles would have to be approved by a committee of men and that didn’t set well with me. I couldn’t even tell Greg because I knew it would hurt and that he had jumped in the fire. I said no, we can’t be enslaved again. But God needed me to understand and see it is Russell’s teaching and those like him that is wrong. To get away from the date setters in defiance of Christ who said as Christopher stated, no one knows the day or hour! To see so many different thoughts on here that shows God has not changed. He dealt with people one on one in the Bible by Holy Spirit. The Nation of Israel is the one he deals with as a special people as a group. They are his.
Tell me what do you think about Rev.7:4-8? I see not a contrast with one number being big and 144,000 being small. I see him saying of all the tribes of Israel as contrasted to “from every nation.” Then I see him saying secondly, it is going to be 12,000 from each tribe and to further emphasize Israel, these are the twelve tribes I will get them from. Three things. He did not say the twelve tribes we see in the Bible ( list isn’t the same every where) but all of those tribes mentioned existed and only he knows what tribe those Jews came from.
I can be wrong but we can be spiritual Jews but not be from the tribes of Israel. I think this is a special Bride group and others, spiritual Jews etc can go to heaven because we see attendees at the marriage and a temple class. I think only Jews make up that Special Bride. Thoughts please and flaws in my reasoning.
As we walked along the bay today, I and my fellow pursuer, partner and wife, talked about your reference to us using our brain cells to look at the Bible in a different way. It seems strange that so many think of themselves as \”foot step followers\” of Jesus . Yet if you ask them the \”steps\” to reason and how they apply to the truth Jesus revealed, they just don\’t have an answer. When you step out of the framework of man and try to reason for yourself using the Bible, it may seem that everything is new, when in reality you are just finally doing what everyone else in the Bible had to do before they could stand erect. You no longer bow to mankind, letting them decide right and wrong. You no longer bow to Jesus as the great teacher, there is only one that is \”great\”, Yahweh. You will have a chance going this way to bend a knee in appreciation for the service Jesus your brother and king, is and has rendered to you that secured his new name as the \”amen\”, that\’s true. Realize that the point of the Bible\’s writing and of Jesus is just to help you return to and approved frame of mind. One in frame of mind as Jesus is one with Yahweh , as Father , great teacher, and King. This is so that all is as it was before we lost our approved \”frame\” of mind.
Are you a foot step follower of Jesus?
(Romans 12:1). . . Consequently I entreat YOU by the compassions of God, brothers, to present YOUR bodies a sacrifice living, holy, acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason.
It has been our experience that when asked, most people do not know the steps to deliberately carry on a rational train of consideration. These steps of reason are necessary to understand conceptual information that is foreign, or in other cases so similar to already considered information, where a wrong or unconstructive conclusion may have been reached, (theory of the trinity) that it is obviously important that reconsideration be rational and carried out in very careful steps of logic.
Becoming a \”footstep follower\” is the process of setting your paths straight (held considerations), and standing erect to serve Yahweh with your powers of reason. We feel the need to emphasize this concept of footstep follower because the whole process of returning to a healthful \”way\” of thinking, or Yahweh’s \”way\” of thinking, is related to making our minds over.
When the term disciple is used, it refers to a person trained in this practice of reasoning, according to Christ’s WAY of thinking, who has taken up the practice of this process of reasoning. A disciple is a person who draws closer to Yahweh’s frame of mind through reason, sees or comes to know and then follows the direction or action indicated by the information revealed by Jesus. He has been orally taught, has received the spirit of understanding and is now a \”taught one\” of Yahweh through this gift.
These are just pulled thoughts from past considerations. We figure that if we keep bringing \”up\”, up, the process of making our minds over will eventually start to remain within the considerations of the minds we are pursuing with, our brothers and sisters. Making you minds over is not a matter guessing of passive action. We know the nature of the transfer of God\’s son\’s life force to earth to be born as a man, so we know our nature as mankind. We know that the logic of retained identity would logically be retained in the grave. We then see the nature of the individual, having life in the condition of death, without consciousness. We then also see how with the addition of a new body and its brain, Yahweh can restore thoughts previously had to our life force with its identity retained now in a new body and able to receive the implanting of these thoughts, remembered by Yahweh. Through the Bible\’s explanation of the process of transfer, we understand the process of an \”out- resurrection\” compared to a resurrection to judgment. We have the \”hope\” of the resurrection because we under-stand, not because somebody says we are going to get it. Jesus was the physical proof of the promises.
When we look at the Bible I and my partner don\’t see original thinking on our part, because so many have already followed Jesus, and some of them were able to write and be heard in the format of what we call the Bible. But there is no mistaking the fact that the \”path\”, the \”way\” was pursued long before the Bible, and will continue to be by us long after this writing we call the Bible. Who knows, maybe you will be a writer in the next \”Bible\”. Each step of reason taken in the Bible is simple. From each step taken, direction is perceived; in other words, you get a sense of where to go to look for new direction. We\’ve all heard the phrase \”make sense of it\”. some day soon we\’ll post the consideration \”Steps to Reason\”. We just wanted to let you know that we owe you one for a nice walk during which we had, as it was said in the last Samurai, \”a good conversation\”. Yes we watch movies too.