SECOND DEATH - Talk Below
Revelation 20:
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Hint: When did the book of life open? Today or after the thousand years?
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Some of us have been told that if we leave an organization or do not believe certain doctrines, or sin by leaving after having "the truth"it will result in our going into second death.
This is an interesting talk on that subject for you to decide from scripture. Bob Carnegie a brother from the Bible students movement gives his perspective. He's a good man just trying to give us some things to think about. Enjoy and Thank you
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Jacqueline Have you read “30 years a Watchtower slave”. It’s so fascinating. It’s about a Bible student that went through the changes with Rutherford and he describes it. It’s awesome.
No not personally. My father did and lots of people when I was young talked about it and some including my dad left the religion. My mom also left the Bible students first then the witnesses but later returned. I was Bible student first 8- 12 years of my life as they were not fully separated in the Black classes because we met in homes until the 1960s. My mother’s home was one of them until she left in 1959 after my dad died.
I have heard and been on conversations about Schnell but I lived a lot of what he regret and talked about. I find most stories to be consistent with Raymond Franz, my Father and myself plus other relatives.
My mom told me to choose my own way to God when I turned 18 and my deceased husband walked away in 1970 when the elder arrangement was being formed. He refused to be under the men of the watchtower society. He died and refused to return to them.
I am happy now completely away from the two religions that have dominated my life because I was born into it.
What is truth? God’s word is Truth. Jesus came to bear witness to the Truth. So I now am in the Truth, the Bible with Jesus as the way, truth and life. Not religious organizations or associations.
I just read the other conversations because I went out to dinner and a little walking after eating.
See you guys tomorrow. Love you.
Lee,
I know what you mean. As a JW I never felt like I had the Holy Spirit in my life. However, what men have done to the WT is what the papacy did to their version of christendom. Russell never centered a religion around himself. Many have become russellites and deemed him “that servant” and for some you may as well chapter and verse the volumes. Even the Laymen’s have a chart showing Jesus is on the right of Christ and even told me directly this. These are Russellites. This is manmade. Russell didn’t have a religion. Many of the Bible students like to say they are not an organization but some have made it “only us” which is no different. However I don’t blame anything going on now on Russell. Some have confused the message with the messenger. They let themselves leave the truth because of an imperfect mans literature. Many have taken Russell comments and called him racist or his marriage and called him names. However even Moses who was the mediator to Israel disobeyed God. If someone as great as Moses even erred against God why would we expect someone of less status to be perfect? Samson disobeyed God and was still listed in Hebrews 11. So even though his comments about race were the norm in his day he still was human. And even if he did have errors in his teachings none are perfect. The divine plan is still the divine plan and it doesn’t hang on him. There are some Bible students who believe the divine plan but don’t believe in the volumes or watchtowers. No problem because the Divine Plan doesn’t hang on Russell but on the Bible.. The LDS or Mormons whole religion falls on the testimony of Joseph Smith. If he is false then the Book of Mormon and their plan of salvation falls. As well as their sealing ceremonies and three levels of heaven and becoming God’s. The divine plan doesn’t hang on Russell. Many have come to the conclusion of the same beliefs we have. Christadelphians and SDA churches and Armstrong breakoffs believe much what we do. I don’t follow Russell. I believe much of what he wrote but not because of him but because of how much in harmony it is with the Bible. My ecclesia aren’t russellites. What sister Jacquline experiences is not what we are like. My whole ecclesia is black and they know much of the comments by Russell said regarding race. They don’t let it bother them because that was a mans opinion. If they let what everyone said about them drive them from the truth then everyone would have left. I believe the Bible student have much truth. I don’t agree with everything they say and they aren’t going to intimidate my into believing it.
I will say that we all need teachers to a certain degree yet only until we develop our own relationship with the Lord and are able to learn from his word and spirit. My downfall was reliance on teachers, unfortunately this ruined my own walk and I had to in turn start all over and it was in fact a blessing in doing so. My personal spiritual gift is of discernment, usually this is in situations when being around new or unknown people, I have a gift of being able to see through them so to speak if they are being real or not. This is a gift that works only in person but has kept me from harmful associations many times, among other things both in the business world and in the spiritual world. I do of course have to be paying attention. I only state this because The Lord has taught me many lessons during situations that have been negative and My family and I have been mistreated by many who are part of religious groups, some who are teachers themselves. It may be for some but for us we rely on the word, the Lord, and of others who are relying on the same things as we then learn from each other and can say now that we are teachers of one another, and students of the Lord.
Lee. Yes. Agreed. That’s why I believe in bible typology. It interprets itself. I found the divine plan in Genesis with Hagar and Sarah. And the search for the bride in Isaac and Rebekah. The dispute between Cain and Abel is what happened with Jesus and Israel. That’s how I know what I believe is true. I believe in the 144,000 because it’s everywhere in the tabernacle and Abraham’s numbers. It’s also in the fish and loaves of the feedings. Abraham sacrificing his son is a picture as well. Lifting up of the snake in the wilderness. You can parallel what appended with Sinai and Pentecost. The two days of redemption gospel and millennial are shown in the tabernacle say of atonement.
Everything I believe is shown through typology. This is how I know the divine plan is true. It’s amazing. I would never have known this without the books I studied. The Bible says we have teachers. Nothing wrong. I’ve read genesis before as a JW and never got what I got out of it studying with the Bible students.
It is hard to read something and see it one way when we have always felt it must be another. I spent many months trying to forget all I had learned and didnt open the bible not 1 time nor did I pray. I forced myself into spiritual depression in order to get rid of pre conceived ideas and I am able to see things much simpler now. It all makes more sense than it did before, Its very black and white and easy to read. I have heard it is not but I do not find it at all difficult, the bible seems to interpret itself.
Lee, how do we spell HELPER? We spell it HOLY SPIRIT.
That is what it means to have Holy Spirit from God. Isn’t it. A JOY.
Jacqueline,
Yes. If we take it out it makes so much sense. , I don’t believe they are raised after the 1,000 years because the only Verse that says this is Revelation 20:5 which we have seen doesn’t make sense and is spurious. Plus who are the 144,000 reigning over if they aren’t brought up from the dead until after the 1,000 years? How can the do as Isaiah 26:9 days and learn righteousness. How can they walk up the highway of holiness? Who are the kings and priests over?
Jacqueline,
Rev 20:5 says that those who are raised after the 1,000 are the first resurrection. How do you harmonize that with you saying that that’s the second resurrection. Hence why it’s spurious.
Rev 20:5
“The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection.”
These are not my words. It says in the scripture that those raised after the 1,000 years are the first resurrection. But you’re saying it’s the second.
The NWT used to put that sentence in brackets and RVIC by Jim Parkinson and others tell you in the back of the Bible. So if you remember English the ohrase6″This is the first Ressurrection refers to the sentence before the words in the brackets. Take out the”spurious”text and read it. You will see the first resurrection refers to the ones ruling with him for the thousand years.
So maybe keep reading from verse 7 onward take note of verses 11- 14.
Now I am not claiming to totally understand this because I just saw it in the last 2 weekd and never saw nor heard this during my time as a witness nor Bible student. Everything, all ressurections were done before the thousand years ended and judgement had to fit within that thousand years.
Now I see what the scriptures actually says and I will pray and study more.
I didn’t put this here to convince anyone else just to share what I see now. If you feel that. the bracketed text is not inserted, but a part of the next sentence then that is how you see it.
I notice the witness Bible no longer puts it in Brackets. Could it be they realize it is inserted because they may be getting a clearer understanding of verses 11-14?
I will keep searching.
Jacqueline.
Did you know that nearly 50% of the earliest manuscripts shows 20:5 is partly spurious?
See how it flows better when the spurious part of 5 is removed. Rev 20:4-6
“4 – They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5.b – This is the first resurrection.
6 – Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection.
over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.“
Full harmony between the three now. Did you know that over 200 manuscripts don’t have this verse?
Because how can the FIRST resurrection in verse 5 be AFTER the 1,000 years yet verse 6 says those of the FIRST resurrection reign with him DURING the 1,000 years. That’s like enjoying a party before you show up.
Christopher probably more than 50% because you are under obligation to put it there if the manuscript you are using has it.
However you and I are talking about different things, all know this may be spurious. I am talking about verse 7 not 5. 7 and onward.
We know the first resurrection is done and they rule for a thousand years but the second ressurrection isn’t who they are ruling over during this 1000 year’s because the Bible says that resurrection takes place after the thousand years.
If you move pass verse 5 in the narrative it progresses.
But maybe this is something I see and I could be reading it wrong but. I see why the margin notation was made. I never saw this before I stopped at verse 5 like I was taught, but now I read on. Revelation is not as difficult as before.
BTW Christopher when I refer to Russell and governing body I am not directing to your comment. This is a website for many readers to see and I almost always talk to the crowd because this is all of our former beliefs. Just wanted to explain this website talks to the readers at large.
Jacqueline,
The quote I shared is what the Bible students teach. You simply statues that they are judged for what they do after the millennium. The “Beyond Today” brethren which are a breakoff of Armstrong believe what you’re saying. But they don’t believe in an opportunity after death.
I see it as the work of verse 13 the entire millennium. Otherwise the world of mankind is on trial now for what they do. It can’t be after the 1,000 years because vs 5 says that the first resurrection is after the 1,000 years while verse 6 says the first resurrection reigns with him DURING the 1,000 years. That’s why I believe vs 5 is spurious. That’s like saying I supervised the party for 2 hours but I came to the party after the it ended. The oldest manuscripts don’t have “the rest of the dead came to life after the 1,000 years have ended”. Don’t take my word. Look it up. The bride cane reign for 1,000 years while not being awakened until after 1,000 years. Verse 5,6 both say these are the first resurrection. Not the second. If verse 5 said this is the second resurrection I would get it. But how can the first resurrection occurs after the 1,000 years while it also says that those of the first resurrection reign with him during the 1,000 years.
Yes. Got it. Thanks. 🙂 so much easier
Jacqueline,
You said “Now it seems to me that the 2nd resurrection people who have died and are not under the stain of sin anymore but have as Adam that conscience that God makes you with are judged out of the things they do after their resurrection.”
You said you just found this out this week.
This is what has always been taught. The Bride raised first as first fruits and the rest raised and judged on what they have done
in the millennium. Why did you say you just found this out? It’s what I’ve always been taught as a Bible student.
Christopher, I have never seen this taught by the Bible students or the Witnesses. They both teach that this occurs during the Millennium. The Bible says AFTER the 1,000 years are OVER, The dead are RAISED. It seems they are noy there when the Devil is let loose, notice he got thrown in the lake of fire before they got resurrected.
Jacqueline,
Ahh now you see what I was saying. Yes. Also is there a way you move the comment box to the top or have a reply butting so we don’t have to keep scrolling all the way to the bottom to comment?
Christopher, do you see the arrows on the right for up and down?
Jacqueline,
It’s spurious. Please read it again.
Rev 20:5,6
5.The rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years should be finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: over these the second death hath no power; but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
According to verse 5 the FIRST resurrection is AFTER the 1,000 years. Yet verse 6 says those of the FIRST resurrection reign with him DURING the 1,000 years. How is that possible? Yes there is a second resurrection but 5,6 say this is the FIRST resurrection.
Simple. It’s spurious and the Sinatic manuscript shows it.
Jacqueline,
I haven’t been shaped by anything. Read Rev 20:5,6. Yes there will be a second resurrection. However both verse 5,6 say this is the FIRST resurrection.
AGAIN heres my question.
Verse 5 says those after the 1,000 years ARE THE FIRST RESURRECTION. NOT THE SECOND.
Then verse 6 says that those of the FIRST RESURRECTION reign with Christ.
How is that possible.
Lee,
I know what you’re saying. Yes I believe the whole world that’s raised will be Judged after the 1,000 years. The millennium of their time of trial. My point is Rev 20:5,6 something isn’t right. How can they be come to life AT THE END of the 1,000 years yet reign DURING the 1,000 years? Which is why I believe that part of Rev 20:5 is spurious. Some other bible commentaries have said it’s spurious as well. I didn’t take Russell’s word for it. I just don’t see how those of the first resurrection will come to life after the 1,000 years while those of the first resurrection are reigning during the 1,000 years. It’s impossible.
“The rest of the dead >>lived not until the thousand years should be finished<>This is the first resurrection<?<>first resurrection<>they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years<<.”Rev 20:5,6
See how it says that the first resurrection is after 1,000 years while it says that those of the first resurrection are those who reign with him during the 1,000 years.
Christopher, I see what you are referencing now. But the first resurrection takes place before the reign as they met him in the air. This was His trumpet coming for the saints, not His second coming to Jerusalem. The insert might just be a scribal insert about the second resurrection, but that verse is talking about the first resurrection persons ruling with him for a thousand years not the unjust of Revelation 20:7.
Verse 5 is written in the margin of some ancient manuscripts. But it seems to be in harmony with verse 7-14.
The thousand years is about getting things under control and having perfect conditions so that when Satan is loosed these survivors and nations can’t say they were not under the right conditions.
Now it seems to me that the 2nd resurrection people who have died and are not under the stain of sin anymore but have as Adam that conscience that God makes you with are judged out of the things they do after their resurrection.
Christopher, I CAN’T EXPLAIN THIS! I am just seeing it this week, it is like a voice inside the brain is causing me to focus on exactly what the scriptures are saying and not allegorizing them as I was instructed as a witness and Bible student.
So I am just showing what I think I am seeing but need to pray and dig further.
I need to admit something here. I have been reluctant to share on here things I am learning because there are some that feel because I am female I shouldn’t be discussing scripture. In fact, that was the main reason I left the Friends of Jehovah witness site. I was told on one hand that there is neither male nor female in the body of Christ but as a female, I wasn’t to use any scriptures on the site. (Got this in writing)
So I have to pull my mine out from under this attempted to stop me from thinking. So I have hesitated to share.
The indwelling of the Spirit, however, says speak and so I heed the Spirit and nor shrink back because of men not wanting a female to question long-held beliefs.
BTW there are Bible student men and women in secret doing the same thing. Some of them got the same words I got so they went underground and left the class.
Just thought I would share that since I got a call this weekend from a brother that left and he wanted to talk to me. He, however, wants me to relax and drop the Bible thing but He is a snare to me in a loving way. I have to work from under this mental hostage and so I struggle but not going to shut up until Christ says shut up. LOL
It is like a fire in my bones not just my heart.
(Revelation 20:10-12) states that the books were opened after satan is cast into the Lake of fire which is after the 1000 years. ” In answer to question top of page”
John 14:6 yes it does doesn’t it. So it seems as if what I personally have been taught from my former religions is not quite on the mark.
I just felt since so many of the people I was associated with are seeing these new revelations of the book of Revelation, I would share.
John 14:6 you may not have had this steeped in you as I had but it gives me a frame of reference to compare.
I welcome you here on the site and want to say I don’t normally engage in too much of pushing what I see in scripture as I believe it is the obligation of each individual to pray and look it up themselves.
That being said, however, we are here to help each other look at the Bible and not filter it thru the eyes of our older men that died before Holy Spirit revealed openly the things in Revelation.
No smear on them but to hold to their teachings without looking for ourselves in 2019 would be a smear on me. I hope it causes a leap to search.
I agree Jacqueline. Jesus said he witnessed satan fall from heaven. (Luke 10:18) the context, Jesus, in so many words tells them they should not have been surprised when they see demons subject to them, Satan is a fallen foe and has always been subject to the authority of the Son of God, it reminds me of Isaiah 14:12) yet timeline is uncertain. We know satan had limited access to heaven in Job 1:6) I dont think Jesus is speaking of anything other than a past event when talking to the 70 or however many returning disciples here so I see the battle of Michael happening prior to Jesus being on earth and when Jesus says he witnesses it and did not himself do it it would indicate a seperation between him and Michael.
I also agree that many will be left on earth as thebible states it clearly. I was just responding totheonepoint on When rest of dead are judged. 1st resurrection or out resurrection does indeed happen before thousand years otherwise where would those sitting on thrones with Jesus come from. So yes The point is simply made in scripture wether Rev talksabout all of dead or not they seem to be judged after not during 1000 years and it is certaim that Jesus and the chosen ones sitting w/ him will do the judging of all those in the resurrection of judgement.
Jacqueline,
Funny thing I didn’t mention anything by Russell. I used the Bible and logic alone not not a commentary . How can one reign for 1,000 years while not coming to life until after the 1,000 years? This is not mentioning two groups in rev 20:5,6 because it says they are the first resurrection. That’s what the Bible says!! I didn’t mention Russell or the GB or JWs. And yes we can have teachers. The Bible says we have teachers. Bible alone and Holy Spirit are why many believe they have the truth and why we have 40,000 denominations.
Christopher no you didn’t mention Russell or governing body but this is why we never saw that verse 7 -14 shows the second resurrection as coming after the thousand years. I am not demeaning them but this is a site where we have frames of reference to these two religions and have shaped us. You might have been shaped because you were there only briefly but we have had tons of articles on this subject as witnesses from 1960 onward.
The saints are resurrected in the first resurrection Revelation 20:6 says”6 Blessed and holy is the one who takes part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.”
These are not it appears to be the ones mentioned in verse 7 of chapter 20.
The Millennial reign is about subjecting all things, including governments, clean air, water, housing for those who will be resurrected later. The second resurrection people are not the rulers with Christ as I understand it, they are the John 5:28,29.
What I am seeing to me is that instead of Paradise during thousand years, ETERNITY and the ages to come are future to this event.
Each person has to come to their own conclusions on this matter. I just thought I would throw it out there to have a conversation and raise awareness that the teachings that we have been exposed too are old and not looked at in light of new awareness opened up by the Holy Spirit since we are near.
Now I mentioned Bible Students because Grand Plan Bible Students believe we are already in the thousand year reign of Christ. That it started in 1874. So there is validity in mentioning the Bible students and the Witnesses belief. We are a prduct of their teachings and I can’t dismiss that for myself.
But now as you say I am looking at Revelation with new eyes without long held doctrines influencing.
Just one of the Christian Ministers I can reference this one. Not to influence anyone on here but to throw it out there. Careful personal study should be done by all. I only mentioned this because I was asked by a brother whether or not I have shared what is being found out. I said know I like for people to do their own study on what they want to learn. He said at least throw it out there, so here it is. There is no request to consider this by anyone on here but just showing one of the places that I considered. Take Care
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouqysm1aao0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9H5K7uNjms
Lee,
Again Rev 20;5 is spurious partly. “The rest of the dead did not come to life until after the 1,000 years were ended” is spurious. One of the most reliable manuscripts such as the Sinaitic does not have this. I’m not saying that there aren’t two resurrections. Rev 2011-19 isn’t the same group as 5,6. So that point it moot. Im saying look at Rev 20:5,6. It says that the FIRST resurrection is AFTER the 1,000 years while in verse 6 it says that those in the FIRST resurrection are to reign 1,000 years. How can one reign for 1,000 years yet not come to life until after the 1,000 years?!?! Rev 20:5,6 and not talking about two groups. It says those are both the first resurrection. This makes no sense and therefore is correct that it is spurious.
Here’s and equivalent of what it would say if it were a different scenario.
“Chris didn’t come to the party until after it ended. Chris came and watched over the party from the beginning.” How?
Rev 20:5) The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Many scholars say this verse is spurious… Though it says in john 5:28-29 Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice, will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.
Then in Rev 20:11-12 I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them.
12 I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works.
This is after the 1000 years so it seems to be that judgement may takeplace then. What will those from the 1st resurrection do on earth then? Well they will rule over someone on earth Im sure. I know that many scriptures talk of a day that has been appointed…. Ecc. 5:14) Rom 2:16) And many more. As far as I see the only ones that speak of exact time is in Revelation and it seems to indicate judgement after not during 1000 years. Even if that verse is spurious it still indicates the same timeline. (1 Cor. 6:2) Do you not know that the saints will judge the world..
What does everyone think of this verse? No explanation anywhere else except Rev 20:4) They sit on thrones judging men and angels so does judgement start with the fallen then while locked in the abyss? Maybe…. When inmates are locked up they then receive their judgement and are later released after sentence is carried out. This is speculation ( I rarely do this) but satan seems to be sentenced to 1000 years and then released and of course he is bad again so is thus given the lake of fire sentence which we know was prepared long b4 just for them. Matt 25:41)
Good way to get some practice?.
They will be tormented day and night forever and ever….Vs. 10) and just after this verse comes the great white throne and judgement is said to begin for the dead according to all they said or did. (Matt 12:36) 2 cor. 5:10)
Some teach this is going to be good cause ALL get a resurrection but I dont think all will see it this way during this time, I think the bible clearly teaches a judgement for things said and did and that the clean slate idea is just overthinking Gods loving character a bit too much… however I also see that some will not be destroyed at this point either.
Lee Anthony, there will be many survivors left after Jesus speaks and the armies fall and the birds eat their flesh. (Rev. 19:20). Notice there is no Carnage when Jesus comes to rescue Israel, the sword comes out of his mouth. The nations are there still during the thousand years as Jesus sets up his rulers. Michael the warrior angel of God (not Jesus) has kicked Satan out of heaven and Jehovah said He would put Jesus enemies under his feet. That is what Michael the Arch Angel does. (Rev.12:7-9) Jesus is a God, not an angel. (John 1:1)
Look at the explanation that I wrote for Christopher for how we know the BIBLE ACTUALLY says this. Then, I would like to take up your other points after seeing there is a difference in what both religions taught us, but of course, it all comes from Russell.
I became suspicious as everything seemed to not be what the Bible actually said if it disagreed with Russell or the Governing Body. I am going verse by verse with other BIBLE MINISTERS. tHEY AREN’T SCHOLARS BUT SIMPLY ARE SPEAKING UNDER THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Jesus Rule on the throne of David: Psalm 2, Daniel 7:13-14, Isa 9:6-7, Zech. 8:3 & 2:10-12; Eze. 37: 26-27 &43:5-7